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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 7/5/2008 1:07:39 AM
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bob97
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Hi Chris...
Well God does give us a law to follow and that is what Paul calls the Law of Christ, which he said he obeyed;
When I was with the Jews, I lived like a Jew to bring the Jews to Christ. When I was with those who follow the Jewish law, I too lived under that law. Even though I am not subject to the law, I did this so I could bring to Christ those who are under the law. When I am with the Gentiles who do not follow the Jewish law, I too live apart from that law so I can bring them to Christ. But I do not ignore the law of God; I obey the law of Christ. (1Co 9:20-21)
So Paul says he is not under the old law but does obey the law of Christ. This is the law written in our hearts by the Holy Spirit in the new covenant; (Heb 8:10)
Now the law of Christ is not complex, it simply tells us to love one another? As Paul says in Ro 13:8: if we love one another we will be fulfilling the law of God.
Christ tells us “Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. This is the first and great commandment. And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself. On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.” (Mat 22:37-40)
Paul tells us: “Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law. For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Thou shalt not covet; and if there be any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself”. (Ro 13:8-9)
Paul then tells us the futility of the old laws;
By these regulations the Holy Spirit revealed that the entrance to the Most Holy Place was not freely open as long as the Tabernacle and the system it represented were still in use. This is an illustration pointing to the present time. For the gifts and sacrifices that the priests offer are not able to cleanse the consciences of the people who bring them.
For that old system deals only with food and drink and various cleansing ceremonies—physical regulations that were in effect only until a better system could be established.
So Christ has now become the High Priest over all the good things that have come. He has entered that greater, more perfect Tabernacle in heaven, which was not made by human hands and is not part of this created world. With His own blood—not the blood of goats and calves—He entered the Most Holy Place once for all time and secured our redemption forever. Under the old system, the blood of goats and bulls and the ashes of a young cow could cleanse people's bodies from ceremonial impurity. Just think how much more the blood of Christ will purify our consciences from sinful deeds so that we can worship the living God. For by the power of the eternal Spirit, Christ offered Himself to God as a perfect sacrifice for our sins. (Heb 9:8-14)
So why should we attempt to follow a complex set of laws that no one could follow when all we have to do is learn to love God with all our hearts, souls and minds, as well as love those around us. By doing this we follow all of the commandments.
Bob
_____________________________
The LORD clears the road for me!
The LORD is my high ridge, my stronghold, my deliverer!
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 7/5/2008 1:39:22 AM
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ChristopherJ
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From: Canada (The True North Strong and Free!)
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I'm not sure, but I think we may be dealing with an issue of semantics here...
First of all, I do not believe as Christians that we are bound to keep God's law to secure our salvation. Salvation is a free gift - by grace through faith.
However, if we are to live according to the law of Christ as you call it - loving God and loving people (incidentally, our church's guiding vision) - then how do we love God? How do we love people? I believe the answers to those questions are found in God's law. In fact, didn't Jesus say that when we love God and people we are fulfilling the whole law of God? In other words, if I am to love my neighbour as myself, I won't bear false witness to them, steal from them, murder them, etc. Also, if I am to love God with all of my heart, will I not have no other gods before Him, not worship idols, not take His name in vain, and keep the Sabbath holy?
And as another observation and discussion point for this thread - the idea that we as Christians don't have to follow the law of God is based on the dispensational theology that says, "that was Old Testament, we are New Testament believers." I much prefer covenant theology that says there is one covenant God has made with mankind through Jesus Christ, although there are notable differences between the OT & NT (see my original post about the distinctions between the moral law and the ceremonial and civil law). There is one God - He doesn't change. If the eternal, unchanging perfect God said certain things were right and wrong in the OT, doesn't it make sense that those truths still apply today? In fact, didn't Paul say that "All Scripture is inspired by God and is profitable for us?" (2 Tim. 3:16-17).
Looking forward to your feedback on this post...
_____________________________
Chris Jordan
www.beausejourchurch.ca
http://thelandofpromise.blogspot.com/
(visit our website for free MP3 audio sermons, sermon notes, articles, devotionals and more).
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 7/5/2008 1:47:36 AM
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LBolt
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I think what is complex and hard is the rabbinical oral laws which were the "additions" and "addendums" to God's Torah. This is hard! Following the 10 commandments is easy because of the Ruach HaKodesh. As far as the sacrifices are concerned 1)Christ fulfilled the sin aspects and 2) the is no Temple in Israel which was a requirement. There's alot to be discussed in depth here...
Loving God and your neighbor is the heart of Torah!!! 
_____________________________
Wisdom is the principle thing; therefore get wisdom: and with all thy getting get understanding...she shall give to thine head an ornament of grace..---Proverbs 4:7,9
You mean there was grace in the Old Testament?!!!
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 7/5/2008 2:57:50 AM
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Bluethread
Posts: 1153
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I usually do not respond to post from anyone but spongeblog in this thread, because it can cause confusion in the conversation we are having. However, your question is an exceptional question. I hope you will understand if this is a one time response.
quote:
ORIGINAL: ChristopherJ
There are three aspects of the law of God in the OT:
1. The Moral Law. These are God's principles of right and wrong and are universal and therefore binding on all people in all time periods. Rules such as do not lie, do not steal, etc. fall under this category. Note that never (not even in the OT) was keeping the law the grounds of our salvation. However, keeping the law has always been the fruit of one who has been genuinely born again.
2. The Ceremonial Law. These aspects of the Jewish religious systems were shadows and types that were fulfilled in Christ. This include laws pertaining to animal sacrifices, and since they have been fulfilled, they are no longer binding on us as NT believers.
3. The Civil Law. These aspects of the Jewish political systems were the rules put in place to govern the punishing of those who violated the moral law of God. For example - capital punishment. And, because we do not live in the nation of Israel, their civil law does not apply to us. As Christians, we are to be subject to the civil laws of the country we reside in, and are not bound by follow the OT civil law.
Any thoughts on these distinctions? Agree, disagree, whatever?
From your posts following this one it appears you are on the right track. To help you along, I would like to respond to the above question. First of all these distinctions are not presented in the Scriptures themselves. This is not necessarily a problem, rabbis have been coming up with principles and distinctions in attempts to understand the Scriptures since before the Sanhedrin was desolved. The problem is that it is much harder to justify that which is not directly spoken of in the Scriptures. So, if you wish to hold to these distinctions, be careful not to raise them to the level of Scripture and play the Prophet, unless of course you are willing to accept the consequences should you be wrong.
Second, these distinctions tend to be arbitrary. I have never met anyone who can come up with a difinative list of which commandments go with each aspect. For example, the "Ten Commandments" are considered by most who have not given much thought to the issue "moral law". However, many quickly adjust their opinion when faced with the "fourth commandment" regarding Shabbat, this later then is considered "ceremonial law". Some then try to make the distinction a matter of who is affected by keeping the commandment. Thus, the first four become "ceremonial"(directed toward Adonai) and the last six "moral"(directed toward man). But then what about the fifth commandment. It is directed toward ones parents, who are not Adonai, but is the only one of the ten that comes with a specific blessing from Adonai. "ceremonial' or "moral", who knows?
Then what is one to do with the laws regarding repentance(recognition, restitution and reformation). I hope you can see how these laws are directed toward Adonai, for it is He who has set up the proper procedure(ceremony) for dealing with these things. Yet, they affect our fellow man because, we all need to know who we can trust and if our goods are secure. Thus the catchall category "civil law" in which we put all the laws we can not clearly define.
I believe, this is indeed the thought process that brought about these distinctions. As people sought to figure out which commandments they really needed to keep, which ones were optional and which ones one should not keep, they created these distinctions and moved the commandments around from one distinction to another until they felt comfortable with the outcome. This leads to the dangerous conclusion that you present under the "civil law" distinction. "As Christians, we are to be subject to the civil laws of the country we reside in, and are not bound by follow the OT civil law." This is the very view the Hitler used to pacify the christians of Germany as he waged a war of agression and exterminated multitudes of german citizens.
< Message edited by Bluethread -- 7/5/2008 3:06:16 AM >
_____________________________
"Show me wherein I have errored and I will hold my tongue." Iyov(Job)
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 7/5/2008 8:27:18 AM
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mcleod
Posts: 838
Joined: 4/4/2006
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quote:
ORIGINAL: LBolt
I think what is complex and hard is the rabbinical oral laws which were the "additions" and "addendums" to God's Torah. This is hard! Following the 10 commandments is easy because of the Ruach HaKodesh. As far as the sacrifices are concerned 1)Christ fulfilled the sin aspects and 2) the is no Temple in Israel which was a requirement. There's alot to be discussed in depth here...
Loving God and your neighbor is the heart of Torah!!!
Hi LBolt how are you doing on this fine day?" Do you not know that your body is the temple of the holy spirit". This is what Paul wrote numerous times in the latter part of the library. Yet for some reason you, Bluethread, and Loyal. Think that a building needs to be built over there in Jerusalem. Which maybe when Christ comes back and sets up his earthly kingdom it might happen. Yet today and like yesterday God is interested in having fellowship with us without a building.
As I have written in the past. For some odd reason we seem to want to put God in a box and keep him there. Yet as the psalmist wrote; where do I go that you are not there. Which would lead me to believe that God is everywhere.
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 7/5/2008 8:41:22 AM
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mcleod
Posts: 838
Joined: 4/4/2006
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I have also notice again the issue of the fourth comes up again in this thread again. After awile when keep harboring on it you can start to worship and for get about the creator. Such has and I will mention it. But SDA have made it clear that if you happen to go to a building on the first day of the week. You fall into category of the lost and dying and going to hell.
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 7/5/2008 10:18:20 AM
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MrFribbles
Posts: 1239
Joined: 1/29/2007
From: Hawaii, but I've moved around since then
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quote:
You fall into category of the lost and dying and going to hell.
mcleod, I'm a bit perplexed. In your post, who's going to hell, and why?
_____________________________
You're a door without a key,
A field without a fence.
You've made a holy fool of me,
And I've thanked you ever since.
- Aaron Weiss
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 7/5/2008 11:17:57 AM
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LoyalGypsy
Posts: 1872
Joined: 4/12/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: SpongeBlog
**edit** What intrinsic, practical value is there in changing what day we meet and celebrate? And if there is no inherent, practical value in changing our meeting schedule, then the only other possible benefit would be God actively moving on our behalf and bringing us some value out of them for us. Will rearranging our meeting schedule move the hand of God on our behalf?
"Does God give you his Spirit and work miracles among you because you observe the law, or because you believe what you heard? (Gal. 5:5)
Greetings,
quote:
**edit** What intrinsic, practical value is there in changing what day we meet and celebrate?
Absolutely none, but just the little problem and the simple fact; that it was done.
As described in the Beginning, God gave a command, and it was heard; and repeated by the women; and she (they)... did what they did anyway.
Which is represent of fallen man.
Other than that…. God is very easy to live with. 
quote:
Will rearranging our meeting schedule move the hand of God on our behalf?
7 "Behold, I am coming quickly! Blessed is he who keeps the words of the prophecy of this book."
John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, (OT) and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was in the beginning (OT) with God.
....SO.....The prophecy of the this book is.....the OT
See how it …fluctuates… back to the beginning...in the words of John 1
So now we move on to answer this misconception
quote:
And if there is no inherent, practical value in changing our meeting schedule, then the only other possible benefit would be God actively moving on our behalf
First of all that opinion hasn’t shed any practical light or value, Because the fact is a change did happen by the Churches moving away from that which Jesus (the head of the Church) kept; which are Gods appointed times,
So your reiteration makes absolutely no sense to begin with...
And is written quite differently in the scriptures
Re 22:18
18 For I testify to everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: If anyone adds to these things, God will add to him the plagues that are written in this book; 19 and if anyone takes away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part from the Book of Life, from the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.
…quote:
**edit** What intrinsic, practical value is there in changing what day we meet and celebrate?
…..They did it because God said thou shall not!!, as mentioned in the beginning of this post …above…because (they heard the word)... and did what they did anyway.
And again … is a represent of fallen man,
..........Therefore moving away from Gods appointed times in principal is already prophesied by Daniel as to the changing of times and seasons; .......which is attributed to ANTI-Christ.
And when properly reiterated.... is because…. Jesus (the head of the Church) kept; Gods appointed times,
Plain and simple 
Here the bottom line....
In the beginning a command was given before they came to the knowledge of the truth.... And in Rev 22 it is very clear it is the same command is given to everyone who hears the words...which means after coming to the knowledge of the truth.... In Re 22:18-19
7 "Behold, I am coming quickly! Blessed is he who keeps the words of the prophecy of this book." The prophecy of the this book is.....the OT
As said in
John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, (OT) and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was in the beginning (OT) with God.
....SO.....The prophecy of the this book is.....the OT
Se how it …fluctuates… back to the beginning...in the words of John 1
Rev 22
8 Now I, John, saw and heard these things. And when I heard and saw, I fell down to worship before the feet of the angel who showed me these things. (That’s a No NO!!...)
quote:
Will rearranging our meeting schedule move the hand of God on our behalf?
Brief example...
the historical suppression of the Bible by the RRC requires that its following get their spiritual examples from the Church .in whom is all authority, so as to receive spiritual things according to that which they think you need, = suppression
which is mentioned below as a No No
A No NO ….Because for example the Pope …(the supreme pastor) in whom rests all authority to issue spiritual things… (Which is an act of admittance of hearing the word) the Pope would be considered the angel of the Church; according to that; which are described earlier in detailat the beginning in the book of Revelation.
……So in like manner as John said above, “I fell down to worship before the feet of the angel (pastor) who showed me (revealed) these things…...= is the same thing as the above ….just different words!!
....And the servant said
9 Then he said to me, "See that you do not do that”
For I am your fellow servant, and of your brethren the prophets, and of those who keep the words of this book =OT. ....Worship God."
So one of the words to keep in this example is "See that you do not do that” which = God saying..thou shall not!
And….unless I am not hearing correctly what is written there...
It seems simple enough according to the scriptures that the question is not going to be … “if” ...rearranging our meeting schedule will move the hand of God on our behalf….. or not…because it is already written how God will move
The real question is why did they rearrange the meeting schedule ….which is in accordance with the prophecy of the book to begin with???;…. and that =s a subtraction…and when combined with the worship of angels (servants)... that = is an addition,… in Which God said, “thou shall not! … so it is already written how God will move…in Rev 22
Rev 22:18 For I testify to everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: If anyone adds to these things, God will add to him the plagues that are written in this book;
19 and if anyone takes away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part from the Book of Life, from the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.
Absolutely perfect!
LG
< Message edited by LoyalGypsy -- 7/5/2008 11:35:12 AM >
_____________________________
Ex 19:5 Now therefore, if you will indeed obey My voice
...So the Persians ask that the 300 drop their arms. Leonidas responds; "Persians! Come and get them!"
300 The Movie
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 7/5/2008 11:33:52 AM
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LoyalGypsy
Posts: 1872
Joined: 4/12/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: ChristopherJ
I'm not sure, but I think we may be dealing with an issue of semantics here...
First of all, I do not believe as Christians that we are bound to keep God's law to secure our salvation. Salvation is a free gift - by grace through faith.
If the eternal, unchanging perfect God said certain things were right and wrong in the OT, doesn't it make sense that those truths still apply today? In fact, didn't Paul say that "All Scripture is inspired by God and is profitable for us?" (2 Tim. 3:16-17).
Looking forward to your feedback on this post...
Greetings,
quote:
First of all, I do not believe as Christians that we are bound to keep God's law to secure our salvation. Salvation is a free gift - by grace through faith.
Example
Luke 22:32
But I have prayed for you, Simon, that your faith may not fail. And when “you” (us) have turned back (by Grace) , strengthen your brothers."
quote:
If the eternal, unchanging perfect God said certain things were right and wrong in the OT, doesn't it make sense that those truths still apply today?
Not to those who think they have already been conformed into the likeness’ of His Son ….so I must assume by that;
That until “I can” raise myself from the dead….then those truths must still apply today
Good Post...Christopher
LG
_____________________________
Ex 19:5 Now therefore, if you will indeed obey My voice
...So the Persians ask that the 300 drop their arms. Leonidas responds; "Persians! Come and get them!"
300 The Movie
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 7/5/2008 2:03:41 PM
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Bluethread
Posts: 1153
Joined: 11/8/2007
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quote:
ORIGINAL: mcleod
Yet for some reason you, Bluethread, and Loyal. Think that a building needs to be built over there in Jerusalem. Which maybe when Christ comes back and sets up his earthly kingdom it might happen.
I believe only Ha Meshiach or someone else directly appointed by Adonai can consecrate a new Temple. So, your objection does not apply to me.
_____________________________
"Show me wherein I have errored and I will hold my tongue." Iyov(Job)
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 7/5/2008 2:32:41 PM
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LoyalGypsy
Posts: 1872
Joined: 4/12/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Bluethread
quote:
ORIGINAL: mcleod
Yet for some reason you, Bluethread, and Loyal. Think that a building needs to be built over there in Jerusalem. Which maybe when Christ comes back and sets up his earthly kingdom it might happen.
I believe only Ha Meshiach or someone else directly appointed by Adonai can consecrate a new Temple. So, your objection does not apply to me.
quote:
ORIGINAL: mcleod
Yet for some reason you, Bluethread, and Loyal. Think that a building needs to be built over there in Jerusalem. Which maybe when Christ comes back and sets up his earthly kingdom it might happen
Greetings,
And where was that said??
Do you have a quote??
LG
_____________________________
Ex 19:5 Now therefore, if you will indeed obey My voice
...So the Persians ask that the 300 drop their arms. Leonidas responds; "Persians! Come and get them!"
300 The Movie
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 7/5/2008 3:09:29 PM
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LoyalGypsy
Posts: 1872
Joined: 4/12/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: MrFribbles
quote:
You fall into category of the lost and dying and going to hell.
mcleod, I'm a bit perplexed. In your post, who's going to hell, and why?
Greetings,
The only 7th day Adventists I encountered was directly after I was saved, I attended the congregation via an invite and decided to get water baptized, but during the course of disrobing the attendant looked at my necklace with the Star of David with an embedded Cross .... and said to me ...”you will not”… be needing that... anymore...
As if I worshipped it or something!!
SO.....I said in reply ...you think so! .....How about this...”you will not” be seeing ....me.... anymore!!!
God took me full circle in the beginning, revealed a ton of stuff in like manner!
But
the doctrine mcleod is mentioning sounds like it rides more on the side of what the UPC teaches, that one is not saved until there is evidence that one speaks in tongues like, but unlike, the moral in the OT;
.....where the moral law states a women is unclean for 7 days and 7 days thereafter during the monthly cycle, so evidence is needed to declare the state of uncleanness. (Which was just good clean advice) and the manner of spirit in opposite.... as the UPC says.... one is unclean “without” the evidence!!!
I am glad I am not a woman in that respect; but at least it didn’t send her to hell(UPC)... nor does a necklace save a person!! (7th Day) ...
So 7th day and UPC are almost total opposites,
LG
_____________________________
Ex 19:5 Now therefore, if you will indeed obey My voice
...So the Persians ask that the 300 drop their arms. Leonidas responds; "Persians! Come and get them!"
300 The Movie
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 7/5/2008 3:44:04 PM
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Bluethread
Posts: 1153
Joined: 11/8/2007
Status: online
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quote:
ORIGINAL: LoyalGypsy
quote:
ORIGINAL: Bluethread
I believe only Ha Meshiach or someone else directly appointed by Adonai can consecrate a new Temple. So, your objection does not apply to me.
Greetings,
And where was that said??
Do you have a quote??
LG
Ex29:42 ". . .There I will meet you and speak to you; 43 there also I will meet with the Israelites, and the place will be consecrated by my glory 44 "So I will consecrate the Tent of Meeting and the altar and will consecrate Aaron and his sons to serve me as priests."
The preists were consecrated first under Adonai's direction, and then the temple and it's furnishings were consecrated.
I Kings chapter 8, especifically "10 When the priests withdrew from the Holy Place, the cloud filled the temple of the Lord. 11 And the priests could not perform their service because of the cloud, for the glory of the Lord filled his temple."
Though Soloman performs the ceremony, Adonai consecrates the temple before that.
Ezra 6:15 "The temple was completed on the third day of the month Adar, in the sixth year of the reign of King Darius. 16 Then the people of Israel--the priests, the Levites and the rest of the exiles--celebrated the dedication of the house of God with joy. 17 For the dedication of this house of God they offered a hundred bulls, two hundred rams, four hundred male lambs and, as a sin offering for all Israel, twelve male goats, one for each of the tribes of Israel. 18 And they installed the priests in their divisions and the Levites in their groups for the service of God at Jerusalem, according to what is written in the Book of Moses."
Though we do not have all of the details, the temple was dedicated in the same way as the tabernacle.
Eze 43:1 "Then the man brought me to the gate facing east, 2 and I saw the glory of the God of Israel coming from the east. His voice was like the roar of rushing waters, and the land was radiant with his glory. 3 The vision I saw was like the vision I had seen when he came to destroy the city and like the visions I had seen by the Kebar River, and I fell facedown. 4 The glory of the Lord entered the temple through the gate facing east. 5 Then the Spirit lifted me up and brought me into the inner court, and the glory of the Lord filled the temple."
Eze 45:18 "'This is what the Sovereign Lord says: In the first month on the first day you are to take a young bull without defect and purify the sanctuary. 19 The priest is to take some of the blood of the sin offering and put it on the doorposts of the temple, on the four corners of the upper ledge of the altar and on the gateposts of the inner court. 20 You are to do the same on the seventh day of the month for anyone who sins unintentionally or through ignorance; so you are to make atonement for the temple."
Zech 6:11 "Take the silver and gold and make a crown, and set it on the head of the high priest, Joshua son of Jehozadak. 12 Tell him this is what the Lord Almighty says: 'Here is the man whose name is the Branch, and he will branch out from his place and build the temple of the Lord. 13 It is he who will build the temple of the Lord, and he will be clothed with majesty and will sit and rule on his throne."
So we see, that every time the temple has been dedicated, it has been by Adonai Himself or by a priest appointed by Adonai.
There is great debate between those who believe we should build a temple in preparation for Ha Meshiach and those who believe that it should be built under His direction. Whatever the case, if it is not dedicated by Adonai or His appointed one, it will not be The Temple of Adonai.
_____________________________
"Show me wherein I have errored and I will hold my tongue." Iyov(Job)
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 7/5/2008 6:02:11 PM
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bob97
Posts: 1788
Joined: 6/24/2006
From: Kansas
Status: offline
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Chris...
quote:
First of all, I do not believe as Christians that we are bound to keep God's law to secure our salvation. Salvation is a free gift - by grace through faith.
Total agreement here.
quote:
However, if we are to live according to the law of Christ as you call it - loving God and loving people (incidentally, our church's guiding vision) - then how do we love God? How do we love people? I believe the answers to those questions are found in God's law. In fact, didn't Jesus say that when we love God and people we are fulfilling the whole law of God? In other words, if I am to love my neighbour as myself, I won't bear false witness to them, steal from them, murder them, etc. Also, if I am to love God with all of my heart, will I not have no other gods before Him, not worship idols, not take His name in vain, and keep the Sabbath holy?
We are in total agreement here and isn’t Christ’s law also God’s law?
quote:
And as another observation and discussion point for this thread - the idea that we as Christians don't have to follow the law of God is based on the dispensational theology that says, "that was Old Testament, we are New Testament believers." I much prefer covenant theology that says there is one covenant God has made with mankind through Jesus Christ, although there are notable differences between the OT & NT (see my original post about the distinctions between the moral law and the ceremonial and civil law). There is one God - He doesn't change. If the eternal, unchanging perfect God said certain things were right and wrong in the OT, doesn't it make sense that those truths still apply today? In fact, didn't Paul say that "All Scripture is inspired by God and is profitable for us?" (2 Tim. 3:16-17).
I also believe in the covenant theology and when we are told the old covenant is passing away to be replaced by the new covenant, what conclusion are we to draw from that? I would have to assume the new covenant has replaced the old and is now in effect. How many times are we told the old is passing away. Christ says you can't put new wine in old wine skins and the covenants and law is exactly what He was talking about.
Don’t get me wrong Chris. We were given the ten words for a reason…it is intended that we shape our life around them. As well as many of the other words and precepts of God, they give us guide lines as how to establish our society. They also tell us how to walk in fellowship with God but they have nothing to do with salvation. The written Ten Commandments and other written precepts become more of a training manual that reinforce what we already know in our hearts.
Here are my thoughts; if man belongs to Christ and the law of Christ is written on our heart under terms of the new covenant, our reaction to love is a natural occurrence. When we fall in love with our bride, we don’t have to read the Ten Commandments to understand how to treat her. We honor her above all else on earth, we do not forsake her for others, we do no harm to her and we love her above ourselves. The key word here is “true love”. If our love is not true and starts to fade, well then it all starts to break down. It’s the same with God; all of the commandments will come naturally because they are written in our hearts, we know them by instinct;
"But this is the new covenant I will make with the people of Israel on that day," says the LORD. "I will put My instructions deep within them, and I will write them on their hearts. I will be their God, and they will be My people. And they will not need to teach their neighbors, nor will they need to teach their relatives, saying, 'You should know the LORD.' For everyone, from the least to the greatest, will know Me already," says the LORD. "And I will forgive their wickedness, and I will never again remember their sins." (Jer 31:33-34)
I guess the key ingredient here is…there has to be a natural attraction between you and your wife and between you and God. Without that attracting force nothing happens, there is no relationship. With that attracting force…love is a natural occurrence.
Bob
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The LORD clears the road for me!
The LORD is my high ridge, my stronghold, my deliverer!
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 7/5/2008 6:20:07 PM
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LoyalGypsy
Posts: 1872
Joined: 4/12/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Bluethread
quote:
ORIGINAL: LoyalGypsy
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ORIGINAL: Bluethread
I believe only Ha Meshiach or someone else directly appointed by Adonai can consecrate a new Temple. So, your objection does not apply to me.
Greetings,
And where was that said??
Do you have a quote??
LG
Ex29:42 ". . .There I will meet you and speak to you; 43 there also I will meet with the Israelites, and the place will be consecrated by my glory 44 "So I will consecrate the Tent of Meeting and the altar and will consecrate Aaron and his sons to serve me as priests."
The preists were consecrated first under Adonai's direction, and then the temple and it's furnishings were consecrated.
I Kings chapter 8, especifically "10 When the priests withdrew from the Holy Place, the cloud filled the temple of the Lord. 11 And the priests could not perform their service because of the cloud, for the glory of the Lord filled his temple."
Though Soloman performs the ceremony, Adonai consecrates the temple before that.
Ezra 6:15 "The temple was completed on the third day of the month Adar, in the sixth year of the reign of King Darius. 16 Then the people of Israel--the priests, the Levites and the rest of the exiles--celebrated the dedication of the house of God with joy. 17 For the dedication of this house of God they offered a hundred bulls, two hundred rams, four hundred male lambs and, as a sin offering for all Israel, twelve male goats, one for each of the tribes of Israel. 18 And they installed the priests in their divisions and the Levites in their groups for the service of God at Jerusalem, according to what is written in the Book of Moses."
Though we do not have all of the details, the temple was dedicated in the same way as the tabernacle.
Eze 43:1 "Then the man brought me to the gate facing east, 2 and I saw the glory of the God of Israel coming from the east. His voice was like the roar of rushing waters, and the land was radiant with his glory. 3 The vision I saw was like the vision I had seen when he came to destroy the city and like the visions I had seen by the Kebar River, and I fell facedown. 4 The glory of the Lord entered the temple through the gate facing east. 5 Then the Spirit lifted me up and brought me into the inner court, and the glory of the Lord filled the temple."
Eze 45:18 "'This is what the Sovereign Lord says: In the first month on the first day you are to take a young bull without defect and purify the sanctuary. 19 The priest is to take some of the blood of the sin offering and put it on the doorposts of the temple, on the four corners of the upper ledge of the altar and on the gateposts of the inner court. 20 You are to do the same on the seventh day of the month for anyone who sins unintentionally or through ignorance; so you are to make atonement for the temple."
Zech 6:11 "Take the silver and gold and make a crown, and set it on the head of the high priest, Joshua son of Jehozadak. 12 Tell him this is what the Lord Almighty says: 'Here is the man whose name is the Branch, and he will branch out from his place and build the temple of the Lord. 13 It is he who will build the temple of the Lord, and he will be clothed with majesty and will sit and rule on his throne."
So we see, that every time the temple has been dedicated, it has been by Adonai Himself or by a priest appointed by Adonai.
There is great debate between those who believe we should build a temple in preparation for Ha Meshiach and those who believe that it should be built under His direction. Whatever the case, if it is not dedicated by Adonai or His appointed one, it will not be The Temple of Adonai.
Greetings,
Sorry about that BT... I was asking here in response to what we are told we are saying....
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ORIGINAL: mcleod
Yet for some reason you, Bluethread, and Loyal. Think that a building needs to be built over there in Jerusalem. Which maybe when Christ comes back and sets up his earthly kingdom it might happen
So i asked....
And where was that said??
Do you have a quote??
LG
_____________________________
Ex 19:5 Now therefore, if you will indeed obey My voice
...So the Persians ask that the 300 drop their arms. Leonidas responds; "Persians! Come and get them!"
300 The Movie
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 7/5/2008 8:40:48 PM
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LBolt
Posts: 894
Joined: 11/30/2007
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Living in a pluristic society in which there are so many standards and every one walks in their own truth, it is necessary for Yah to lay down those guidelines so that we may know how to please Him. One things for certain, He doesn't want us to follow the way of the world and with so many influences out there it is easily to go their way. If it was a matter of us just loving God and we'll automatically do the right thing that would be easy. But we must war against the flesh, the devil and the world and we can only do so with the proper instructions and constantly allowing our minds to be renewed.
We need the Torah, it is a lamp unto our feet and a light unto our path. Joshua was told to meditate in it day and night to observe to do all that was written...this was vital to his success and ours.
< Message edited by LBolt -- 7/6/2008 10:54:51 AM >
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Wisdom is the principle thing; therefore get wisdom: and with all thy getting get understanding...she shall give to thine head an ornament of grace..---Proverbs 4:7,9
You mean there was grace in the Old Testament?!!!
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 7/5/2008 10:12:46 PM
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MrFribbles
Posts: 1239
Joined: 1/29/2007
From: Hawaii, but I've moved around since then
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quote:
We need the Torah, it is a lamp unto our feet and a light unto our path. Joshua was told to meditate in it day and night to observe to do all that was written...this was vital to his success and ours.
LBolt, if we need the Torah as you say, why does Christ declare all foods clean, rendering part of the Torah no longer applicable?
Also, I'm not sure if I've yet received an answer to this - why don't we, as Christians, kill adulterers anymore?
_____________________________
You're a door without a key,
A field without a fence.
You've made a holy fool of me,
And I've thanked you ever since.
- Aaron Weiss
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 7/6/2008 2:10:03 AM
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Bluethread
Posts: 1153
Joined: 11/8/2007
Status: online
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quote:
ORIGINAL: MrFribbles
quote:
We need the Torah, it is a lamp unto our feet and a light unto our path. Joshua was told to meditate in it day and night to observe to do all that was written...this was vital to his success and ours.
LBolt, if we need the Torah as you say, why does Christ declare all foods clean, rendering part of the Torah no longer applicable?
Also, I'm not sure if I've yet received an answer to this - why don't we, as Christians, kill adulterers anymore?
How do you define "food", does it include dog poo, broken glass or razor blades? How do you know these are not food? It is because someone has told you they are not food. Adonai tells us what is food and what is not food. So, Yeshua tells us all food, as defined by Adonai, is clean even if one does not wash ones hands in a rabbinic fashon.
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"Show me wherein I have errored and I will hold my tongue." Iyov(Job)
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 7/6/2008 9:56:40 AM
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LoyalGypsy
Posts: 1872
Joined: 4/12/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: MrFribbles
quote:
We need the Torah, it is a lamp unto our feet and a light unto our path. Joshua was told to meditate in it day and night to observe to do all that was written...this was vital to his success and ours.
LBolt, if we need the Torah as you say, why does Christ declare all foods clean, rendering part of the Torah no longer applicable?
Also, I'm not sure if I've yet received an answer to this - why don't we, as Christians, kill adulterers anymore?
Greetings,
quote:
why does Christ declare all foods clean, rendering part of the Torah no longer applicable?
He doesn’t, it’s a way of speech which is not in alignment with the curse,
Matthew 9:1-8
1 So He got into a boat, crossed over, and came to His own city.
2 Then behold, they brought to Him a paralytic lying on a bed. When Jesus saw their faith, He said to the paralytic, "Son, be of good cheer; your sins are forgiven you."
3 And at once some of the scribes said within themselves , "This Man blasphemes!" = cursers
4 But Jesus, knowing their thoughts, said, "Why do you think evil in your hearts?
5 For which is easier, to say, 'Your sins are forgiven you,' or to say, 'Arise and walk'?
6 But that you may know that the Son of Man has power on earth to forgive sins"--then He said to the paralytic, "Arise, take up your bed, and go to your house."
7 And he arose and departed to his house.
8 Now when the multitudes saw it, they marveled and glorified God, who had given such power to men
That’s why it is called the word(s) of God. It’s all about words! (Torah)
Hasn't God shown you how to command the angels yet??
LG
_____________________________
Ex 19:5 Now therefore, if you will indeed obey My voice
...So the Persians ask that the 300 drop their arms. Leonidas responds; "Persians! Come and get them!"
300 The Movie
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 7/6/2008 10:34:12 AM
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MrFribbles
Posts: 1239
Joined: 1/29/2007
From: Hawaii, but I've moved around since then
Status: offline
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quote:
How do you define "food", does it include dog poo, broken glass or razor blades? How do you know these are not food? It is because someone has told you they are not food. Adonai tells us what is food and what is not food.
No, He told us in Torah what food was clean, and what food was unclean. He does not say "Do not eat rocks, for they are not food." He says "Do not eat pork, shellfish, certain bugs, etc., for they are unclean." Big difference there.
quote:
So, Yeshua tells us all food, as defined by Adonai, is clean even if one does not wash ones hands in a rabbinic fashon.
Funny, the Scriptures seem to say that He declared all foods clean. While handwashing is also addressed in the chapter, that doesn't seem to come up in Mark 7:19.
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Hasn't God shown you how to command the angels yet??
1, no He hasn't. 2, what does this have to do with the topic at hand?
_____________________________
You're a door without a key,
A field without a fence.
You've made a holy fool of me,
And I've thanked you ever since.
- Aaron Weiss
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 7/6/2008 10:57:55 AM
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LBolt
Posts: 894
Joined: 11/30/2007
Status: offline
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Mr. Fribbles food is clean...pig, shrimp, (Lev. 11) are not considered food. I discuss this in the Arnold Murray thread, on page 7-9, you can refer there or I'll explain it | | |
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