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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 6/30/2008 2:16:26 PM
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Lapidoth
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quote:
This matter of circumcision is made so clear in all the other scriputures regarding the practice. It is the actual literal command of Moses that is in debate, and Paul says it is a big nothing, and doesn't include it in his understanding of what it means to 'keep God's commands' (Romans 2, 1 Cor. 7). Circumcsion is simply not requried anymore, either as a means to salvation or as outward proof of that salvation.
Paul also says that "uncircumcision" is nothing.
At least Paul was fair and balanced. lol.
_____________________________
Why does He keep quoting Torah? Doesn't He know He's about to abolish it?
http://www.tedpearce.com/Videos/TheForgottenpeople.html
BARUCH HABA BASHEM YAHUAH
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 6/30/2008 2:19:15 PM
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LBolt
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Hey, that sounds like Fox Action News in Cleveland...fair, balanced, and everywhere! LOL!
_____________________________
Wisdom is the principle thing; therefore get wisdom: and with all thy getting get understanding...she shall give to thine head an ornament of grace..---Proverbs 4:7
www.tatepublishing.com/bookstore/book.php?w=978-1-60604-743-9
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 6/30/2008 2:21:15 PM
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Odeliya
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Oh, BJ, not needed, you said nothing offensive at all! Keep it as collateral- sooner or later I will offend you, with my mouth it’s probably inevitable. 
The point I was making - it is perfectly possible to be an enemy of God even if you are (to the outsiders and to yourself) look like a perfectly Torah-obedient believer,its just easy as it is for Pharisee to be an enemy of God. It is not what we do, it as you said,what is in one’s heart.
I want to make sure we all are on the same page : not confusing letter with the Spirit. One can obey the letter and not obey the Spirit. Obeying the Letter doesn’t yet mean person obeys he spirit. L, Gyps, and Blue – agree or not?
As for MC- I know a MC woman..I only dream and wish to be half a believer she is in terms of HS fruit I see in her.
This is the point, I don’t care if one is MC, Bapt, Methodist, polka dotted or striped.
_____________________________
Proverbs XI:14 Where no counsel is, the people fall: but in the multitude of counselors there is safety.
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 6/30/2008 2:24:07 PM
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Lapidoth
Posts: 3614
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From: OKLAHOMA
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quote:
As for MC- I know a MC woman..I only dream and wish to be half a believer she is in terms of HS fruit I see in her.
This is the point, I don’t care if one is MC, Bapt, Methodist, polka dotted or striped.
To the bottom line --------- AMEIN!!!!!
_____________________________
Why does He keep quoting Torah? Doesn't He know He's about to abolish it?
http://www.tedpearce.com/Videos/TheForgottenpeople.html
BARUCH HABA BASHEM YAHUAH
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 6/30/2008 2:24:45 PM
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Odeliya
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quote:
ORIGINAL: LoyalGypsy
And when I get to Heaven the first person I asked to see other than Lapidoth....
Lappie will be the one in charge of mowing the Heavenly green Pastures. When you see fellow pushing lawnmover with angels singing on the background- that's Lap. 
_____________________________
Proverbs XI:14 Where no counsel is, the people fall: but in the multitude of counselors there is safety.
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 6/30/2008 2:25:07 PM
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Lapidoth
Posts: 3614
Joined: 4/13/2005
From: OKLAHOMA
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quote:
ORIGINAL: LBolt
Hey, that sounds like Fox Action News in Cleveland...fair, balanced, and everywhere! LOL!
I'm not an O'Reilley fan, but I watch him and Hannity a lot. LOL.
Uh ho, that will put another label on me.
_____________________________
Why does He keep quoting Torah? Doesn't He know He's about to abolish it?
http://www.tedpearce.com/Videos/TheForgottenpeople.html
BARUCH HABA BASHEM YAHUAH
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 6/30/2008 2:27:11 PM
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Lapidoth
Posts: 3614
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Odeliya
quote:
ORIGINAL: LoyalGypsy
And when I get to Heaven the first person I asked to see other than Lapidoth....
Lappie will be the one in charge of mowing the Heavenly green Pastures. When you see fellow pushing lawnmover with angels singing on the background- that's Lap.
LOL. You must have had an "open vision" of me yesterday.
whew!!!!! I took a muscle relaxer before going to bed so
I could make it to work today. lol.
Thank God I'm not the one with the "Who can come in clipboard."
_____________________________
Why does He keep quoting Torah? Doesn't He know He's about to abolish it?
http://www.tedpearce.com/Videos/TheForgottenpeople.html
BARUCH HABA BASHEM YAHUAH
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 6/30/2008 2:28:30 PM
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bjay0801
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quote:
This is the point, I don’t care if one is MC, Bapt, Methodist, polka dotted or striped.
I got dibs on zera stipes!! 
_____________________________
O that there were such an heart in them, that they would fear me, and keep all my commandments always, that it might be well with them, and with their children for ever!
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 6/30/2008 4:43:12 PM
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MrFribbles
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quote:
Please remember that 85% of the NT IS the Old Testament. None of the scriptures are just made up. They were repeating torah.
85%? I doubt that. Have you counted yourself?
Obviously, many teachings in the NT are better understood with an understanding of the OT. Again (I feel I'm saying that a lot, heh), I am NOT saying that the OT is worthless! May it never be so! I'm just suggesting that the Law does not need to be literally fulfilled, and that unless you are currently trying to find a way to stone any adulterers and belligerent teens you know, I'm pretty sure you don't think it does either.
quote:
The songs that were sung were scriptures. The "creeds" are scriptures repeated so they could me memorized.
Not all of them. There are many songs and creeds found in the NT, in Paul's epistles, that are found nowhere in the OT. 1 Corinthians 15 has a fine example of this.
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quote:
I do believe that the Holy Ghost moved upon Paul to write these words however, like I said before, I do not believe he thought he was writing the Bible or a portion of it.
*whoof* Thank goodness. I was about to get pretty worried there.
I agree. But I also believe that, perhaps outside of Moses, none of the OT writers believed they were writing Scripture.
quote:
Now I know there are somethings that apply to the Temple but there are a lot of principles there that we can adhere to such as Sabbath, the dietary laws, the Feasts to name a few.
What about judgments? Do you support the death penalty in every way the Law does?
_____________________________
You're a door without a key,
A field without a fence.
You've made a holy fool of me,
And I've thanked you ever since.
- Aaron Weiss
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 6/30/2008 4:54:14 PM
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LoyalGypsy
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Odeliya
quote:
Therefore." …’these people…. draw near to Me with their mouth, And honor Me with their lips, But their heart is far from Me.
However, I don’t see our Messianic friends here keeping such tradition...
I have an opinion about some of our messianic friends views, based on clear evidence of their behaivor - sorry to see them being as such; but for the sake of peace and mutual respect wont discuss it.
There is a principals in the Law of the Bible that speaks of causing such a reactions, so I guess someone who knows how to manipulate that is pushing those buttons.... in Love.... of course
quote:
quote:
The most religious and strict obeyer’s of the Law( i meant Torah, not rabb. bs) on the outside are often the dirtiest, wicked evildoers on the inside, …..Managing to do what they want while maintaining the "appearance" of doing what God wants.
Meaning that even those that think they are fully following the torah only and don’t follow the false rabbinical laws are often still idolators, enemies of God and in terms of obeying the Spirit they are not better then Pharisees, scribes and other hypocrites.
True,
Paul discussed that in detail in the contexts of Rom 11,
For example
Ro 11:24 - Show Context
For if you were cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and were grafted contrary to nature into a cultivated olive tree, how much more will these, who are natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree?
Now the other side of what Paul is speaking is a revealed truth; and that tells us that if we were not grafted in to a natural tree then Paul would not have reminded us that we as (Christians) can also suffer from all you mentioned above in blue, simply as part of that inheritance...so to speak!
God is no dummy.
_____________________________
Ex 19:5 Now therefore, if you will indeed obey My voice
...So the Persians ask that the 300 drop their arms. Leonidas responds; "Persians! Come and get them!"
300 The Movie
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 6/30/2008 6:05:24 PM
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LoyalGypsy
Posts: 2458
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quote:
ORIGINAL: MrFribbles
quote:
Understanding the culture and reading the history of that time period. With regard to the pharisees, again do your research my friend. Unfortunately they did rely on Scriptures, Paul told Timothy to study them to show himself approved unto God... Read II Tim. 3:15-17, it was the TaNaKH Paul referring to.
Believe me, I have done my research.
If 2 Timothy 3 only refers to the OT (notice I say only, since obviously the OT is also inspired), then what basis do we have to defend NT inspiration?
Just because something is useful for correction and teaching, and able to point one to salvation, does not automatically require them to be followed in the same way as they were before Christ.
Also, what are your thoughts on Ephesians 2:11-22, specifically verse 15?
Greetings,
quote:
If 2 Timothy 3 only refers to the OT (notice I say only, since obviously the OT is also inspired), then what basis do we have to defend NT inspiration?
For that we should look at what Jesus said
Mt 18:4 - Show Context
Therefore whoever humbles himself as this little child is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven.
For example; as Paul in humbleness saying he was the least of the Apostles therefore caused him to be the front runner of the NT.
quote:
Just because something is useful for correction and teaching, and able to point one to salvation, does not automatically require them to be followed in the same way as they were before Christ.
But the principals are the same
Romans 12:1-21
1 I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that you present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable to God, which is your reasonable service.
2 And do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind, that you may prove what is that good and acceptable and perfect will of God.
Here is the point….
3 For I say, through the grace given to me, to "everyone" who is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think,
Taken from
2Co 12:7 - Show Context
And lest I should be exalted above measure by the abundance of the revelations,
………a thorn in the flesh was given to me, a messenger of Satan to buffet me,
……..lest I be exalted above measure.
In other words when he was stoned to the point of death and was on account of haughtiness....
So the 2 phrases are the same, yet in different contexts of the book,
Paul by saying “to think of oneself highly than he ought…. and a messenger of Satan will be sent to buffet me, ……was because...lest I be exalted above measure.…Are one in the same!
So not only was Paul was driving that point home to Timothy of being haughty, but that to expect it when God reveals truth!
quote:
does not automatically require them to be followed in the same way as they were before Christ.
In the OT they didn’t have a buffer system; they offered the required sacrifice according to the sin, Period!
In the NT we Offer Jesus in like manner, Period
Whereby as Paul saying …..lest I be exalted above measure; which is by the revelations, ….could cause one to think more highly of himself …. than he ought....
Which would go against Mt 18:4 and therefore not be exalted in the Kingdom.
And one can lose their covering.
….Therefore …..a messenger of Satan was sent to buffet him, (by my experiences this happens “every time” I get a revealed truth, tends to make one a little haughty) ....and it’s really nothing new, according to the scripture.
….Think of it as Gods checks and balances to humble one in the midst of His revealed truths.
quote:
does not automatically require them to be followed in the same way as they were before Christ.
…Now in like manner by Paul sharing and speaking of his experiences above, the messenger would cause Paul in like manner …or automatically require… that Paul make that sacrifice according to the sin…. in the same way as it was done in the OT, but to Christ, ….and without all the mess!
Therefore causing God to Honor what is written in Mt 18:4 
That is why in part ....the principals haven’t changed; and Jesus did not destroy them.
LG
_____________________________
Ex 19:5 Now therefore, if you will indeed obey My voice
...So the Persians ask that the 300 drop their arms. Leonidas responds; "Persians! Come and get them!"
300 The Movie
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 6/30/2008 6:08:25 PM
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MrFribbles
Posts: 1742
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quote:
That is why in part ....the principals haven’t changed; and Jesus did not destroy them.
I agree that the principles haven't changed - I just do not feel that the exact method of following those principles has gone unchanged since Moses had his palaver with God atop Sinai.
_____________________________
You're a door without a key,
A field without a fence.
You've made a holy fool of me,
And I've thanked you ever since.
- Aaron Weiss
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 6/30/2008 6:11:08 PM
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bjay0801
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85%? I doubt that. Have you counted yourself?
LOL I think I did a fair share of counting but dont take my word for it, study it for yourself.
_____________________________
O that there were such an heart in them, that they would fear me, and keep all my commandments always, that it might be well with them, and with their children for ever!
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 6/30/2008 6:11:55 PM
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SpongeBlog
Posts: 979
Joined: 12/9/2006
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Lapidoth
Paul also says that "uncircumcision" is nothing.
Precisely! It isn't about the externals anymore. It's all about character now.
"For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision has any value. The only thing that counts is faith expressing itself through love." (Galatians 5:6)
What used to be so fundamental and essential for being in covenant with God is now a big fat zero. The literal has passed in favor of the spiritual. The profundity of this truth cannot be overstated. And I imagine this is especially true to a natural Jew who is familiar with the law and his heritage. Likewise, other seemingly immovable truths of the old covenant have passed in favor of their truer spiritual fulfillment.
_____________________________
"For the kingdom of God is not a matter of eating and drinking, but of righteousness, peace and joy in the Holy Spirit, because anyone who serves Christ in this way is pleasing to God and approved by men." (Romans 14:17,18)
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 6/30/2008 6:15:09 PM
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SpongeBlog
Posts: 979
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quote:
ORIGINAL: bjay0801
85%? I doubt that. Have you counted yourself?
LOL I think I did a fair share of counting but dont take my word for it, study it for yourself.
This raised my eyebrows when you brought this up a while back. It's so ridiculous I dismissed it. Do you literally mean 8 1/2 words out of every 10 is from the OT?
And even if it was true, the other 15% teaches us how we no longer have to follow Torah to the letter 100%. Even if your stastistic is accurate, it's a poor defense for following literal Torah. For example, Paul has to talk about literal old covenant circumcision to contrast it with circumcision of the heart. Does his reference to the OT make literal circumcision still binding? No.
< Message edited by SpongeBlog -- 6/30/2008 6:24:03 PM >
_____________________________
"For the kingdom of God is not a matter of eating and drinking, but of righteousness, peace and joy in the Holy Spirit, because anyone who serves Christ in this way is pleasing to God and approved by men." (Romans 14:17,18)
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 6/30/2008 6:21:06 PM
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MrFribbles
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quote:
I think I did a fair share of counting but dont take my word for it, study it for yourself.
It's not a matter of studying - it's a matter of seeing the obvious. Unless you mean something different than, as SpongeBlog has said, one 8 1/2 of every 10 words is a direct quotation from the OT, then you are simply wrong in this specific matter.
_____________________________
You're a door without a key,
A field without a fence.
You've made a holy fool of me,
And I've thanked you ever since.
- Aaron Weiss
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 6/30/2008 6:49:40 PM
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SpongeBlog
Posts: 979
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quote:
ORIGINAL: MrFribbles
quote:
The key word in this verse that blows the door open for me is the word 'ordinances'. It is the Strong's number 1378 and it is dogma in Greek. According to the New Strong's Expanded Dictionary of Bible Words it says "Frrom the base of 1380; a law (civil, cerem. or eccl.):- decree {3x}, ordinance {2x}. Dogma is transliterated in English, primarily denoting an opinion or judgment; hence, an opinion expressed with authority, a doctrine, ordinance, or decree."
Interestingly, this is also the word used to describe the civil law of Rome, and also the decrees that the council of Jerusalem sent to the Gentile believers. Nowhere it is used suggests this "Oral Torah" you suggest it refers to, at least in and of itself; the idea would have to be read into the text.
If one flips over to Colossians 2 you can see Paul uses the word in reference to how we have been forgiven the debt of the written word (not oral law) that stood opposed to us:
"When you were dead in your sins and in the uncircumcision of your sinful nature, God made you alive with Christ. He forgave us all our sins, having canceled the written code, with its regulations (dogma), that was against us and that stood opposed to us; he took it away, nailing it to the cross. (Col 2:13-14)
I'm fairly confident Paul would not be suggesting we were in violation of Rabbinical oral law and needed forgiveness for that. But at the same time I am of the opinion that the Jews understood the law in it's entirety, Mosaic and Rabbinical, and Paul handles it that way as well. And I can well appreciate that considering that the point is we no longer relate to God through the vehicle of law (no matter how perfect or imperfect it can or can't be) but rather through the new way of the Spirit. And there are clear precedants in the Bible to show us that the new way of the Spirit does not out of necessity have to equate to the letter of the old law...(start broken record here)...the commands for animal sacrifice for sin and circumcision of the penis being glaring and undeniable examples.
_____________________________
"For the kingdom of God is not a matter of eating and drinking, but of righteousness, peace and joy in the Holy Spirit, because anyone who serves Christ in this way is pleasing to God and approved by men." (Romans 14:17,18)
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 6/30/2008 6:57:31 PM
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LBolt
Posts: 961
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I think a more accurate statement would be to say that the OT is quoted heavily by the NT.
_____________________________
Wisdom is the principle thing; therefore get wisdom: and with all thy getting get understanding...she shall give to thine head an ornament of grace..---Proverbs 4:7
www.tatepublishing.com/bookstore/book.php?w=978-1-60604-743-9
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 6/30/2008 7:40:22 PM
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MrFribbles
Posts: 1742
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quote:
I think a more accurate statement would be to say that the OT is quoted heavily by the NT
Indeed it is. However, I fail to see how this applies to the topic of whether or not the Christian needs to keep the law in order to be pleasing to God.
_____________________________
You're a door without a key,
A field without a fence.
You've made a holy fool of me,
And I've thanked you ever since.
- Aaron Weiss
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 6/30/2008 7:55:59 PM
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LBolt
Posts: 961
Joined: 11/30/2007
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I'm going to burrow some elses thunder:
"Re: The Law - 1newman - 06/04/2008 08:33 AM
Come let us reason together? If the Law (GOD?S Instructions) are fulfilled in the sense of being complete, done away with, all accomplished, then everything is as it has been written, and as you look around it clearly is not. Fulfilled in the sense (translation) of interpreted of understood correctly id exactly what Y?shua (Jesus) did, does, and is doing (Holy Spirit). If the Law is no longer valid, then what does a follower of the Lord do? How are we to live? Do we pick and choose what to do? Is murder, theft, idolatry, and Sabbath day done away with? If there seems to be confusion or apparent conflict in the scriptures, then it is us that have the lack of understanding, not the scriptures, for as Paul says ALL SCRIPTURE is inspired by GOD. Yeshua is the end of the Law because it leads you to Him, following His ways should lead you to Him (John 14:21). If you read Hebrews the new covenant is found in Jeremiah 31 and it speaks of the changing of the people, not the Law. This is the promise of the Holy Spirit on all people to do the work in us through us and for us. A changed people, not a changed law. The writer of Hebrews is explaining that the High priest (in the order of Melchezidek) has always been, and we of faith in Yeshua are of that order, and do not need to go the Temple to commune with GOD. The Aaronic priesthood is set up for the earthly tabernacle. Be a Berean and search it out yourself. GOD?S ways are higher than ours, and He nor them change. The Lord Yeshua (Jesus) followed every one of them and He is our Master, Teacher, Rabbi. Should we not strive to be LIKE HIM (Christlike)? We cannot keep the Spirit of the Law without the Spirit of GOD. The Letter of the Law are the basics. We should keep the former without neglecting the latter. Read Revelation 12:17 and Revelation 14:12 what commands do the saints follow? The ones they decide? This is what the first church (Catholic church) began to do and now the Protestants follow suit. We have been made new creatures in Messiah (Christ) and by His Spirit we are becoming like Him. The Law is The Word, and The Word is GOD, and The Word reveals GOD to us, and the rest of the world. Yeshua (Jesus) is the Law / Word made flesh. GOD / His Word among us. You cannot separate, fragment, dissect His Word from His Spirit. They are ONE. There are many doctrines of men that show a similar Jesus, but the WORD (including the LAW) from the beginning to the end reveal the One True and Living GOD and Yeshua (Jesus) Messiah (Christ). If we will not even hear the Law how are we any different then the disobedient Israel of the scriptures? The Lord Yeshua (Jesus) says it is those that hear the Word and do it, they are the family of GOD. We should quit trying to get out of following GOD?S / Yeshua?s ways and like a child just accept GOD as a man of His Word and keep and teach it. Children might not understand why, but they should still obey their parents. Answer this biblically, not theologically: What is the New Covenant, and who is it given to? (Jeremiah 31) Has it been fulfilled or is being fulfilled? How are the people of GOD blessed, where do you find the promised blessings? How do the people of GOD reflect to the world the unity of the GOD of Abraham and Isaac and Jacob and Yeshua (Jesus) the Savior of the World? Yeshua (Jesus) walked it, talked it, lived it, and died it. He came to show us the WAY. He has saved us, He is saving us, and He will save us?"
Mr.Fribs, Paul made reference to oral law alot. Like I said before it was used iterchangeably. The scripture you pointed in Col. 2 is an example because in verses 20-23 he spells it out plainly.
Why we don't stone? Christ redeem us from the law of sin and death? I'll explain this more in depth, later...
_____________________________
Wisdom is the principle thing; therefore get wisdom: and with all thy getting get understanding...she shall give to thine head an ornament of grace..---Proverbs 4:7
www.tatepublishing.com/bookstore/book.php?w=978-1-60604-743-9
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 6/30/2008 8:20:21 PM
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bob97
Posts: 1972
Joined: 6/24/2006
From: Kansas
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I’m going to ask this question again; under the terms of the new covenant as described in Jer 31:33 when God writes the Torah in the hearts of man, is this all aspects of the law or only the moral aspect of the law? Or is it just the Ten Commandments and the gospel of Jesus Christ.
I did get a response from SpongeBlog but apparently everyone else considered it a question to ignorant to be bothered with.
Or maybe the issue is that no one knows the answer.
The point being, if in the finial analysis this is Gods plan for the tribes of Israel and Judah and is already the prescribed plan for the gentles, wouldn’t it have some impact on how all should live today?
Now I've been reading from the beginning this thread but 150 plus pages is a lot of reading, so maybe this has already been addressed...if so can someone can point me to the right place.
Bob
_____________________________
The LORD clears the road for me!
The LORD is my high ridge, my stronghold, my deliverer!
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 6/30/2008 8:46:58 PM
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LBolt
Posts: 961
Joined: 11/30/2007
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quote:
I’m going to ask this question again; under the terms of the new covenant as described in Jer 31:33 when God writes the Torah in the hearts of man, is this all aspects of the law or only the moral aspect of the law? Or is it just the Ten Commandments and the gospel of Jesus Christ.
I'm going to say at this point all of it, although the sacrifices of the Lamb...Since Christ is the Lamb I don't see this being reinstituted. I guess I'll find out in the future.
_____________________________
Wisdom is the principle thing; therefore get wisdom: and with all thy getting get understanding...she shall give to thine head an ornament of grace..---Proverbs 4:7
www.tatepublishing.com/bookstore/book.php?w=978-1-60604-743-9
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