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RE: 153 fish - 3/25/2008 9:42:20 PM
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PeterD
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Little_1
Interesting question!
I find the fact that the Bible records that the net 'had not been torn' interesting. I imagine that this was possibly mentioned because it was not intended to hold so many fish! Perhaps the answer lies in this - they counted and recorded the number of fish because they were amazed concerning what the net held without being damaged which made things doubly amazing.
Just a thought.
Good answer Little_1
Luke 5:36-39
36He also told them a parable: "No one tears a piece from a new garment and puts it on an old garment. If he does, he will tear the new, and the piece from the new will not match the old. 37And no one puts new wine into old wineskins. If he does, the new wine will burst the skins and it will be spilled, and the skins will be destroyed. 38But new wine must be put into fresh wineskins. 39And no one after drinking old wine desires new, for he says, 'The old is good.'
I also believe the nets were new and improved and they were stronger than the old ones. Just as we read about the old garments and new garments, old wineskins and new wineskins.
The old fishing nets were like Peter. Where the new nets is the new Peter in the Lord Jesus Christ. So, if the Lord chose more fish than 153, I'm sure the nets would've held them just fine.
also,
Mark 1:14-20
Jesus Begins His Ministry
14 Now after John was arrested, Jesus came into Galilee, proclaiming the gospel of God, 15and saying, "The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand; repent and believe in the gospel."
Jesus Calls the First Disciples
16 Passing alongside the Sea of Galilee, he saw Simon and Andrew the brother of Simon casting a net into the sea, for they were fishermen. 17And Jesus said to them, "Follow me, and I will make you become fishers of men." 18And immediately they left their nets and followed him. 19And going on a little farther, he saw James the son of Zebedee and John his brother, who were in their boat mending the nets. 20And immediately he called them, and they left their father Zebedee in the boat with the hired servants and followed him.
One might suggest that these are 153 men who are caught in the net of the Gospel and carried to the Lord by the Apostle Peter and if so then who might these men be?
When they got out on land, they saw a charcoal fire in place, with fish laid out on it, and bread.
and not from the 153 fish
Peter
< Message edited by PeterD -- 3/25/2008 10:32:27 PM >
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RE: 153 fish - 3/25/2008 9:57:32 PM
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lmwal931
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the no. of fish - 153 - i believe to be symbolic. the net did not break. i think that is the security of the believer. we are the 5 in the net. 2 is GOD'S babies. 123 would be the net with babies. 153 plus 123 and you get 276. in paul's shipwreck story there were 276. he wanted to save everybody. GOD'S will is that none be lost. you can be old and still be a baby if you haven't accepted JESUS. aint it stimulating that the no. 3 used so much. JESUS rose on the 3rd day. john never uses 7, 70, 17, etc. in his writings.
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RE: 153 fish - 3/25/2008 11:04:50 PM
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PeterD
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quote:
ORIGINAL: lmwal931
the no. of fish - 153 - i believe to be symbolic. the net did not break. i think that is the security of the believer. we are the 5 in the net. 2 is GOD'S babies. 123 would be the net with babies. 153 plus 123 and you get 276. in paul's shipwreck story there were 276. he wanted to save everybody. GOD'S will is that none be lost. you can be old and still be a baby if you haven't accepted JESUS. aint it stimulating that the no. 3 used so much. JESUS rose on the 3rd day. john never uses 7, 70, 17, etc. in his writings.
Hello lmwal931
You have given some interesting thoughts what then do you think about
2 Peter relating to your teaching?
2 Peter 3:9
9 The Lord is not slow to fulfill his promise as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing that any should perish, but that all should reach repentance.
Peter was trusted with the 153 fish and he brought all of them to the Lord Jesus
Paul gained the trust of the 276 men in Jesus Name
Not like Judas were he did not care about the poor, but because he was a thief, and having charge of the moneybag he used to help himself to what was put into it.
fishers of men not fishers of money.
Peter
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RE: 153 fish - 3/26/2008 3:54:39 PM
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Bluethread
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How do you validate these analogies; Peter introducing 153 and Paul introducing 276? I don't see a record of either one keeping score. The only matchup of numbers like this I have seen is the number who accepted Yeshua at the Feast of Weeks(Pentecost) and the number lost oin the rebellion of Korah.
_____________________________
"Show me wherein I have errored and I will hold my tongue." Iyov(Job)
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RE: 153 fish - 3/27/2008 1:29:29 AM
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lmwal931
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the 7 disciples were fishing and caught the fish. peter was a focus on this story. 153: the FATHER is symbolized by 1 the people by 5 JESUS by 3. paul is referring to this but adding 123: the FATHER babies JESUS.
THEREFORE 153 plus 123 = 276. when you a non-believer 2 accept JESUS 3 2 plus 3 = 5 now you are symbolized by 5.
paul listed 9 fruits of the HOLY SPIRIT and 9 gifts of the HOLY SPIRIT. do you see a closely written 13 in B ? 13 symbolizes the HOLY TRINITY.
JOHN 3:16 "HE gave his only Begotten SON". i'm not your ordinary everyday idiot. though none go with me, i still will follow .............
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RE: 153 fish - 3/27/2008 1:37:52 AM
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1love1God1way
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I have no idea what you are talking about.
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love.ben
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RE: 153 fish - 3/27/2008 1:18:26 PM
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Bluethread
Posts: 1537
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I could come up with ways of using these numbers to justify just about any doctrine, but that would be an endless goose chase. Therefore, I will ask, what is your biblical justification for you number matrix?
_____________________________
"Show me wherein I have errored and I will hold my tongue." Iyov(Job)
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RE: 153 fish - 3/27/2008 11:22:31 PM
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PeterD
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Bluethread
How do you validate these analogies; Peter introducing 153 and Paul introducing 276? I don't see a record of either one keeping score. The only matchup of numbers like this I have seen is the number who accepted Yeshua at the Feast of Weeks(Pentecost) and the number lost oin the rebellion of Korah.
Just my thoughts not doctrines but in the Book of Acts you'll read about Paul Sailing for Rome/ The Storm at Sea/The Shipwreck/
Acts 27:37
37(We were in all 276 persons in the ship.)
Peter
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RE: 153 fish - 3/27/2008 11:41:36 PM
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PeterD
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quote:
ORIGINAL: lmwal931
the 7 disciples were fishing and caught the fish. peter was a focus on this story. 153: the FATHER is symbolized by 1 the people by 5 JESUS by 3. paul is referring to this but adding 123: the FATHER babies JESUS.
THEREFORE 153 plus 123 = 276. when you a non-believer 2 accept JESUS 3 2 plus 3 = 5 now you are symbolized by 5.
paul listed 9 fruits of the HOLY SPIRIT and 9 gifts of the HOLY SPIRIT. do you see a closely written 13 in B ? 13 symbolizes the HOLY TRINITY.
JOHN 3:16 "HE gave his only Begotten SON". i'm not your ordinary everyday idiot. though none go with me, i still will follow .............
John 21:8-11
8The other disciples came in the boat, dragging the net full of fish, for they were not far from the land, but about a hundred yards off.
9When they got out on land, they saw a charcoal fire in place, with fish laid out on it, and bread. 10Jesus said to them, "Bring some of the fish that you have just caught." 11So Simon Peter went aboard and hauled the net ashore, full of large fish, 153 of them. And although there were so many, the net was not torn.
11So Simon Peter went aboard and hauled the net ashore, full of large fish, 153 of them.
What is to be said about Simon Peter when he went aboard and hauled the net ashore, full of large fish, 153 of them? Peter dragged the net "about a hundred yards" to the Lord. What is the purpose of dragging 153 large fish a hundred yards when Jesus said to "them", "Bring some of the fish that you have just caught."
What kind of fish were they? What was there approx. weight? the net was not torn but dragged along the ground yet did not break.
I'm still looking into this...
Peter
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RE: 153 fish - 3/28/2008 5:26:21 AM
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Annie64
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Hi, everybody! I didn't read all the posts, so I don't know for sure if this has been said, but I have a theory that I didn't see here, but it makes sense to me.
I think it is very significant that John records the number of fish. I don't think the number is significant in and of itself. Let me explain.
One of the purposes John had in writing the Gospel of John is to get people to believe it. One of the ways he does this is by showing himself to be an eyewitness of what he is talking about. It's as though he was saying, "Hey, you gotta believe me! I was there" When John gives the number, he is supplying a detail that only someone who was there to see it happen could know.
_____________________________
On Christ the solid rock I stand
ALL other ground is sinking sand.
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RE: 153 fish - 3/28/2008 6:59:41 AM
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amyk
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Unless the number had some significance to the original readers of the gospel which perhaps has been lost to us, I just take it to mean there were 153 fish. I trust that if the Lord wants me to read more into it than that, He is able to reveal it to me.
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RE: 153 fish - 3/28/2008 9:33:16 PM
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Doc65
Posts: 277
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quote:
11So Simon Peter went aboard
Ok, to be nit-picky, Peter never went back aboard the boat, he simply stood up. Compare the original Greek in Matt 14:32:
"kai anabantown eis to ploion " (and standing up they went into the boat)
as opposed to John 21:11
"anabe oun simon petros kai eilkusen to diktuon eis tehn gehn" (then Simon Peter stood/got up and dragged the net to the land)
The vern "anabaino" simply means to go up, ascend. The word "eis" (into) has to be present to indicate that one "went up, ascended into something. In John 21:11, the word anabaino simply means that he went up out of the water.
Peter never re-boarded the boat. Additionally, it is not a boat, it is a ship that Jesus and Peter board in Matt. 14 as opposed to the boat which is noted in John 21:8 ("oi de alloi mathetai to ploiario helthon" - and the other disciples in the boat went). "ploiario " is a boat and "ploion" is a ship. In John 21, it appears that even though only seven disciples were named in 21:1 and on the ship, the other four were perhaps on the boat and came to help tow the net to shore. Simon Peter, on the other hand, simply swam to shore and helped to drag the net in ("The other disciples followed in the boat" after Simon leaped inot the water...Remember Peter jumped into the water after he was naked before the Lord - "akousas oti o kupios estin ton ependuten diezosato hen gar gymnos kai ebalen eauton eis ten thalassan", having heard that 'it is the Lord', he wrapped his coat around him, for he was naked, and threw himself into the sea...).
My apologies for the rambling...and I still wish I knew how to insert Greek and Hebrew characters as transliterating into English just stinks...
< Message edited by Doc65 -- 3/28/2008 9:50:35 PM >
_____________________________
"The Sovereign Lord is my strength; He makes my feet like the feet of a deer, He enables me to go on the heights." Hab. 3:19
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RE: 153 fish - 3/28/2008 11:22:35 PM
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lmwal931
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in the 4th gospel there is a verse that says :the FATHER and I are one. therefore the FATHER is symbolized by 1. the no. 3 is used more than any other no. in john. JESUS went to the wedding at cana on the 3rd day. HE was 30 yrs old when HE started HIS ministry. etc. 3 symbolizes the truth and also JESUS. paul listed 9 fruits therefore HOLY SPIRIT is symbolized by 9. 1plus 3 plus 9 = 13 and B. HOLY TRINITY is symbolized by 13. only begotten SON: HE was gotten from the B (13).
jehovah witnesses mistranslate this to prove JESUS is a created being and they are abhorrent at my testimony. just means JESUS was gotten from the HOLY TRINITY.
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RE: 153 fish - 3/29/2008 5:46:11 PM
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PeterD
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Hello Doc65
John 21:11
11So Simon Peter went aboard
The Bible I'm using is the English Standard Version
Doc65 what are the Greek and Hebrew meanings of the 153 large fish?
Peter
< Message edited by PeterD -- 3/29/2008 5:55:11 PM >
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RE: 153 fish - 3/29/2008 8:11:40 PM
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Doc65
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Hi, Peter. The best I can do is direct you to post #64. From what I can see, the most plausible explanation is two-fold and I'll try to make this as succinct as possible:
John, being a Jew, inserted the number as a form of gematria and that the 153="b'nai elohim" or "children/sons of God". The referent is back to Luke 5 and the great catch of fish. The fish, in both Luke and John, are representative of thsoe who are saved in the church. Luke doesn't give a specific number (and he doesn't seem to dwell on details such as numbers) as much as John.
As far as a "literal" meaning, the Greek in the passage reads simply "ichthuon megalon ekaton pentekonta trion" - "one hundred fifty three great fish". I don't know of any Hebrew translation of the passage.
Take a look at some of the references that I've listed in #64. I've been studying this particular gematrion for some time; it's as puzzling as the 666 (or 616) in Revelation. If you'd like to see my thesis on the subject, let me know and I'd be happy to e-mail it to you...Hope this helps.
BTW, the Greek texts which I use are Aland NT Greek (4th Ed.) and the Nestle-Aland Latine et Graece. For clarification of words I also use the BDAG Greek-English Lexicon.
_____________________________
"The Sovereign Lord is my strength; He makes my feet like the feet of a deer, He enables me to go on the heights." Hab. 3:19
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RE: 153 fish - 4/4/2008 12:27:16 AM
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lmwal931
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quote:
Logged in as: lmwal931
1st of all the apostle john didn't write the 4th gospel and a lot of scholars would agree with me on that. dr. charlesworth in his book "beloved disciple" made a good case for thomas. dr. ben witherington 111 went with lazarus. i don't agree. the 153 i thought was simple. the bible symbolically likens us to fish and sheep. have you seen the fish symbol. i think JESUS dictated the 4th gospel to the beloved disciple.
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RE: 153 fish - 5/25/2008 8:39:34 PM
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PeterD
Posts: 425
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Doc65
Hi, Peter. The best I can do is direct you to post #64. From what I can see, the most plausible explanation is two-fold and I'll try to make this as succinct as possible:
John, being a Jew, inserted the number as a form of gematria and that the 153="b'nai elohim" or "children/sons of God". The referent is back to Luke 5 and the great catch of fish. The fish, in both Luke and John, are representative of thsoe who are saved in the church. Luke doesn't give a specific number (and he doesn't seem to dwell on details such as numbers) as much as John.
As far as a "literal" meaning, the Greek in the passage reads simply "ichthuon megalon ekaton pentekonta trion" - "one hundred fifty three great fish". I don't know of any Hebrew translation of the passage.
Take a look at some of the references that I've listed in #64. I've been studying this particular gematrion for some time; it's as puzzling as the 666 (or 616) in Revelation. If you'd like to see my thesis on the subject, let me know and I'd be happy to e-mail it to you...Hope this helps.
BTW, the Greek texts which I use are Aland NT Greek (4th Ed.) and the Nestle-Aland Latine et Graece. For clarification of words I also use the BDAG Greek-English Lexicon.
Hello Doc65,
2 months later but I have read your thesis and we are in the same boat, in reason that is.
Have a good Memorial Day!
PeterD
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RE: 153 fish - 5/25/2008 9:56:34 PM
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Doc65
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You too, PeterD. Blessings on your Memorial Day holiday! I hope the thesis helped and didn't muddy the waters too badly...
_____________________________
"The Sovereign Lord is my strength; He makes my feet like the feet of a deer, He enables me to go on the heights." Hab. 3:19
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RE: 153 fish - 5/28/2008 12:54:48 AM
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JordanW
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My Dad preached about this on Sunday, he told me that 153 is only divisible by the number 3, which I found interesting.
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Jesus Christ is The Way, The Truth, and The Life.
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RE: 153 fish - 5/28/2008 8:31:06 AM
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ta_mosquito
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quote:
ORIGINAL: JordanW
My Dad preached about this on Sunday, he told me that 153 is only divisible by the number 3, which I found interesting.
Ummm.... it's also divisible by 17.
153 = 3 x 3 x 17.
_____________________________
Tricia
"There's a fine line between being open-minded and empty-headed." ~Michael Coren
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RE: 153 fish - 5/28/2008 2:10:38 PM
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Bluethread
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If you subtract the middle number from the sum of the first and last. you get 1
If you look at the differences between the digits 1,3 and 5, you get 2
If you add the first two and subtract the last, you get 3
If you add the first and last, and then list the sum with the middle digit, you get 4 and 5
If add all of the numbers and subtract the number of digits, you get 6
If you subtract the first from the third and then add the difference to the middle, you get 7
If you add the last two and multiply the product by the first digit, you get 8
If you add up all of the digits, you get 9
If you take the first two digits and subtract that number from the product of the second and third digits, you get 0
So, if you want to put absolute doctrinal significance to certain numbers you can probably derive a multitude of secret messages in the Scriptures. Therefore, I prefer to give significance to numbers only when the context explicitely states it. It is hard enough to apply what the Scriptures clearly state, without looking for secret messages.
< Message edited by Bluethread -- 5/28/2008 2:19:43 PM >
_____________________________
"Show me wherein I have errored and I will hold my tongue." Iyov(Job)
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RE: 153 fish - 5/29/2008 3:26:07 AM
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PeterD
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How do I get off of this crosswalk boat?
PeterD
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RE: 153 fish - 6/1/2008 10:59:57 PM
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lmwal931
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this is a salvation net. 153 1 is the FATHER 3 is JESUS and christians are in the net as a 5. you start off as a baby. 2. when you accept JESUS 2 plus 3 = 5 3 also symbolizes the truth. JESUS is the truth.
paul wanted to save everybody. 123. babies are in the net. 153 plus 123 = 276. guess how many were on the boat in paul's ship wreck story.
isn't it interesting that john never uses 7, 70, 17, etc. want to know why?
p.s. don't get mad. get glad.
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