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RE: 153 fish - 1/22/2008 6:21:53 PM
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SpongeBlog
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I have to say, I would have been more convinced if a fish showed up on my porch pedastal...oh, wait, what's that?...
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"For the kingdom of God is not a matter of eating and drinking, but of righteousness, peace and joy in the Holy Spirit, because anyone who serves Christ in this way is pleasing to God and approved by men." (Romans 14:17,18)
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RE: 153 fish - 1/22/2008 9:34:12 PM
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lmwal931
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153 fish in the net and scripture says that the net did not break. 1 symbolizes GOD, THE FATHER. THREE symbolizes JESUS. and we are between GOD and JESUS. we started out as a baby symbolized by 2. then we accepted JESUS in our heart. 2 plus3=5 then we are a born again believer symbolized by 5. and there you have. the gospel net.
when we go to heaven we need JESUS again. 5plus3=8 turn 8 90
degrees and you have the symbol for eternity. this is also a security of the believer proof by saying the net didn't break. all numbers are for GOD'S glory. numerologists missed the boat.
paul wanted to save everybody. so did GOD. 153PLUS 123=276
the no. of people in paul's shipwreck story. and paul said you gotta stay on the boat.
i hope you think about this and not get perturbed or enter into delusion.
2nd thessalonian 2: 11-12.
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RE: 153 fish - 1/23/2008 1:04:34 AM
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SD456
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quote:
ORIGINAL: ta_mosquito
quote:
According to scripture, 5 is grace, 7 is completion, 6 is the # for man, 12 is divine government, etc.,
What do you mean, "according to scripture"?
I haven't seen these "spelled out" in Scripture.
That's why some can't believe that God speaks in riddles and metaphors, because they must always have things 'spelled out' in black and white for them and that's not how God usually speaks.
It's a common understanding among many theologians that the first time something is spoken of in scripture that that is the meaning given to that object, number, color, etc. But I'm not going to get into an argument with you. It's ok if they mean nothing to you, it has nothing to do with salvation.
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RE: 153 fish - 1/23/2008 7:10:02 AM
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.IC.
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Hey All & Hi,,
While the scriptures don't say plainly that certain numbers mean certain things,, it is rather easy to see the pattern after some time. By reading Genesis for example i soon realise that some of these such numbers are coming into play.
Enoch was the seventh from God,,
Lamech was 777 years old and was the Father of Noah,,
Gen 5
28Lamech lived one hundred and eighty-two years, and became the father of a son.
29Now he called his name Noah, saying, "This one will give us rest from our work and from the toil of our hands arising from the ground which the LORD has cursed."
30Then Lamech lived five hundred and ninety-five years after he became the father of Noah, and he had other sons and daughters.
31So all the days of Lamech were seven hundred and seventy-seven years, and he died.
Seven being the example here,, so take a look at this number and just see when you read the Bible when it appears and on what sort of occasions , it has been used.
The occasion when people do see the numbers used by God that they do recognise is,, 40 . They see how it is used and why,, and have no worries or doubt that God has used an amount of time/number (40) to highlight something of importance.
As for 153,,, wouldn't have a clue! I do find the fact that there are 7 on the boat-
John 21
2Simon Peter, and Thomas called Didymus, and Nathanael of Cana in Galilee, and the sons of Zebedee, and two others of His disciples were together.
Capture the Dream,
yours In Christ,,
God Bless
_____________________________
HOLY, HOLY, HOLY, Lord God Almighty-
which was, and is, and is to come.
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RE: 153 fish - 1/23/2008 12:35:13 PM
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1love1God1way
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Nobody has said that numbers don't have meaning. The question is....does every number have some special meaning....or can a number just be a number?
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RE: 153 fish - 1/23/2008 1:54:26 PM
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manwe
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quote:
ORIGINAL: 1love1God1way
Nobody has said that numbers don't have meaning. The question is....does every number have some special meaning....or can a number just be a number?
I think it depends on the context (that which goes with the text) - Revelation 13:18 openly invites interpreting the number - other places do this as well - I think John 21 does provide the context for the number 153 having some meaning. And I think in the writings of John as a whole he does not typically just use numbers for numbers sake, not typically.
_____________________________
Zephaniah 3:17 reads, "The LORD your God is with you, he is mighty to save. He will take great delight in you, he will quiet you with his love, he will rejoice over you with singing."
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RE: 153 fish - 1/23/2008 1:56:44 PM
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manwe
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it is also in Ezekiel 47:10.
quote:
ORIGINAL: 1love1God1way
I did learn something today. The number 153 does show up again in Scripture, in a way.
I am not saying that there is a correlation or connection...that would be pure speculation, I feel, however, it is indeed interesting.
Part of Jesus' ministry was asking questions. He challenged people in this way.
The number of questions asked by Christ, recorded in Scripture, is 153.
_____________________________
Zephaniah 3:17 reads, "The LORD your God is with you, he is mighty to save. He will take great delight in you, he will quiet you with his love, he will rejoice over you with singing."
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RE: 153 fish - 1/28/2008 1:06:50 AM
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PeterD
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Look at the change in Peter's character from these two occasions of going fishing plus the similarites.
Luke 5:1-11
Jesus Calls the First Disciples
1On one occasion, while the crowd was pressing in on him to hear the word of God, he was standing by the lake of Gennesaret, 2 and he saw two boats by the lake, but the fishermen had gone out of them and were washing their nets. 3Getting into one of the boats, which was Simon’s, he asked him to put out a little from the land. And he sat down and taught the people from the boat. 4And when he had finished speaking, he said to Simon, "Put out into the deep and let down your nets for a catch." 5And Simon answered, "Master, we toiled all night and took nothing! But at your word I will let down the nets." 6And when they had done this, they enclosed a large number of fish, and their nets were breaking. 7They signaled to their partners in the other boat to come and help them. And they came and filled both the boats, so that they began to sink. 8But when Simon Peter saw it, he fell down at Jesus’ knees, saying, "Depart from me, for I am a sinful man, O Lord." 9For he and all who were with him were astonished at the catch of fish that they had taken, 10and so also were James and John, sons of Zebedee, who were partners with Simon. And Jesus said to Simon, "Do not be afraid; from now on you will be catching men." 11And when they had brought their boats to land, they left everything and followed him.
John 21:1-14
Jesus Appears to Seven Disciples
1After this Jesus revealed himself again to the disciples by the Sea of Tiberias, and he revealed himself in this way. 2Simon Peter, Thomas (called the Twin), Nathanael of Cana in Galilee the sons of Zebedee, and two others of his disciples were together. 3Simon Peter said to them, "I am going fishing." They said to him, "We will go with you." They went out and got into the boat, but that night they caught nothing.
4Just as day was breaking, Jesus stood on the shore; yet the disciples did not know that it was Jesus. 5 Jesus said to them, "Children, do you have any fish?" They answered him, "No." 6 He said to them, "Cast the net on the right side of the boat, and you will find some." So they cast it, and now they were not able to haul it in, because of the quantity of fish. 7That disciple whom Jesus loved therefore said to Peter, "It is the Lord!" When Simon Peter heard that it was the Lord, he put on his outer garment, for he was stripped for work, and threw himself into the sea. 8The other disciples came in the boat, dragging the net full of fish, for they were not far from the land, but about a hundred yards off.
9When they got out on land, they saw a charcoal fire in place, with fish laid out on it, and bread. 10Jesus said to them, "Bring some of the fish that you have just caught." 11So Simon Peter went aboard and hauled the net ashore, full of large fish, 153 of them. And although there were so many, the net was not torn. 12Jesus said to them, "Come and have breakfast." Now none of the disciples dared ask him, "Who are you?" They knew it was the Lord. 13Jesus came and took the bread and gave it to them, and so with the fish. 14 This was now the third time that Jesus was revealed to the disciples after he was raised from the dead.
PeterD
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RE: 153 fish - 1/31/2008 4:05:41 PM
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mom_of_a_soldier
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We all know that John is pretty accurate in all his "eyewitnessing"
Maybe the reason for letting us know exactly how many fish was caught, was so that we would know or be reminded that he was there to see it. That he personally witnessed this.
If I was not an eyewitness to something, I would probably tell it like, " there were alot of fish."
But to be sure like I said before, we would know or be reminded of the fact, he was there to see it.
Kinda like saying, "it wasn't just alot of fish, it was 153 fish in that net, & it didn't break either"
See what I'm saying?
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RE: 153 fish - 1/31/2008 8:51:39 PM
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9drtr
Posts: 1583
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quote:
ORIGINAL: 1love1God1way
Maybe it just means 153 fish....
I think we have a winner.
_____________________________
Edwin
When we know who is coming, how can we worry about what is coming? When the last hour belongs to us, how can we worry about the next minute?
Ross Crighton
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RE: 153 fish - 3/16/2008 1:16:32 AM
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lmwal931
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i be a complete idiot. i think GOD uses no.'s in a unique way. is not it interesting that the 4th gospel never uses 7, 17, 70, etc.. paul listed 9 fruits of the HOLY SPIRIT and 9 gifts. no. 3 is used more than any other no. in john and used mostly in reference to the LORD. the father is symbolized by the no. 1. and in john's gospel there is a verse that says the FATHER and I are 1. 1plus3plus9 = 13 HOLY TRINITY is symbolized by 13. 7 you break down to 2 plus 5. 2 are babies and 5 is children.
4 goes to 2plus2. or it can go to 3plus1. 6 is describing our worst sin.
666 is more precise. 11 is holy matrimony. when JESUS used 6 by itself, i don't think it was referring to our worst sin. john 2.
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RE: 153 fish - 3/16/2008 1:21:44 AM
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lmwal931
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3 times 2 = 6
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RE: 153 fish - 3/16/2008 8:49:16 PM
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FurGodWurLivin
Posts: 1061
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Just to throw my nickle in the pond... (five cents ain't what it used to be, no?) I honestly think that in John 21 it literally means 153 fish. Let's face it, Jesus asks them to bring the fish over to Him, so not only did they handle every one of those oily vertebrates, but they had to sort them out to find the bad ones and the good ones.
Consider also, this is a fish story coming from a fisherman. Assuming that the number wasn't embellished as a fish story (because it is the Bible, after all), it's a heck of a feat to pull in that many fish without the nets simply snapping. Remember, they weren't pulling in guppies. Shoot, if you were catching 153 guppies, all you would need is a five gallon bucket.
God can use symbology and numbers to say something other than what He says (he flat out said to Aaron and Miriam that He uses "dark speech"), but sometimes He says exactly what He means to say. Also, John is the one that wrote the book (under inspiration, of course), so I doubt he would have used "dark speech". So, once again, I seem to find myself inbetween two prevailing opinions... oh woe is me... not.
Adam
_____________________________
I am hyena, Jesus is my Mufasa...
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RE: 153 fish - 3/16/2008 10:35:35 PM
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Doc65
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First off, sorry about the huge post....
Hmmm, I too have to add my nickel to the pond...and before I do, I have to point out that I wrenched my brain for 1-1/2 years doing a senior thesis on this specific text (John 21:11) and its implications and interpretations.
Two posters brought up some interesting points which have some of the greatest weight regarding the 153 fish, namely the Hebrew gematria and the passage in Ezekiel. First, Ezekiel's reference to the Dead Sea towns of En-Gedi and En-Eglaim have an eschatological referent with Jn. 21:11 - the 153 fish are representative of the end-time church when all people will be brought to Christ (or at least all who will confess Christ). How the two towns relate is the fact that only En-Gedi exists now and En-Eglaim is "lost" to man; when the waters noted in Ezekiel 47:2 flow back into the Dead Sea, making it alive again and great numbers of fish will be there again and, as the poster noted, the gematrion for Eglaim is 153. This is something of a stretch, however, and aside from Bauckham and Bruce Grigsby ("Gematria and John 21:11-Another Look at Ezekiel 47:10, The Expository Times, vol. 95, 1984, pp. 177-178) it is not widely accepted.
The more pertinent of these two postings, however, is that a somewhat recent article concerning work done by Joseph A. Romeo (Gematria and John 21:11, Journal of Biblical Literature, vol. 97, no. 2, 1978, pp. 263-264) indicates that the most likely meaning for the gematrion 153 is the Hebrew word B'nai Elohim or Sons/Children of God, a gterm which is used twice in John (1:12, 11:52) and six times in 1 John (1:28; 3:1, 2, and 10 and 5:19).
The other issue with regard to the fish themselves, as FurGod pointed out, these aren't tiny fish, just as they weren't in Luke 5 - they are ikthuon, "great fish", as opposed to the tiny fish that Jesus is cooking on the fire when the disciples come ashore in John 21 (opsarion)...these are fish (people) who are not going to be discarded but are to be kept in the boat (church), as it were.
Additionally, the English translation(s) render the pericope as there only being one boat and just the seven disciples noted - the Greek renders it as two vessels, one a "ploio" or "ploia", a ship (v. 21:3), and the other as a "ploiariohn", a boat (v. 21:8 - "other disciples came in a boat, for they were not far from land"). Rendering the Greek as it is actually written makes it seem that all 11 disciples (Judas had been hanging around...sorry, really, really bad pun) were present...not that it alters the meaning much but it is an interesting note...
Luke 5's relationship to this is as an antetype or prescursor to the fulifillment of the eschaton found in John 21; the nets in Luke broke, with no mention of the number of fish, but in John, the nets didn't break and the number is noted, indicative of the great number of the "sons/children of God".
Finally, this is can be seen as a type of Eucharistic meal, with Jesus breaking bread and fish with the disciples such as had happened with the feeding of the thousands in the Synoptics. A parallel can be found in the Emmaus Road pericope in Luke.
To let you know of the various resources that relate to this "mess'o'fish", here is the bibliography for the thesis...happy slogging and I hope this helps. If anyone wants to read the thesis, let me know, I'd be happy to e-mail it to you.
PS St Jerome "cooked" the numbers to come up with his interpretation based on Oppianus Cilix and the Halieutica...
Bibliography & Sources
BIBLIOGRAPHY
Barrett, C.K. The Gospel According to John. London: SPCK, 1950
Barrett, C. K. The Gospel of John and Judaism. Philadelphia: Fortress Press, 1970
Bohak, Gideon. “Greek-Hebrew Gematrias in 3 Baruch and in Revelation.” Journal for the Study of the Pseudoepigraphica, vol. 7 (1990): 119-121
Brown, F., Driver, S., and Briggs, C. The Brown-Driver-Briggs Hebrew and English
Lexicon. Peabody, MA: Hendrickson Publishers, 2003
Cardwell, Kenneth. “The Fish on the Fire: John 21:9.” The Expository Times, vol. 102 (1990): 12-14
Coogan, Michael D., ed., “Wisdom of Solomon,” New Oxford Annotated Bible, New York: Oxford University Press, 2001
Curtis, Edward Lewis. “Early Cities of Palestine.” The Biblical World. Vol. 7, no. 6 (1896): 411-424
Derret, J. “Esan gar halieis (Mark 1:16): Jesus' fishermen and the parable of the net.” Novum Testamentum, vol. 22 (1980): 108-138
Drewer, Lois. “Fisherman and Fish Pond: From the Sea of Sin to Living Waters.” The Art Bulletin. Vol. 63, no. 4 (1981): 533-547
Friedman, David Noel, ed. Anchor Bible Dictionary, vol. 6 New York: Doubleday, 1992
Froehlich, Karlfried. Biblical Interpretation in the Early Church. Philadelphia: Fortress
Press, 1984
Goguel, Maurice. “Did Peter deny his Lord? A Conjecture.” The Harvard Theological Review, vol. 25, no. 1 (1932): 1-27
Gordon, Cyrus H. “Ugaritica.” Journal of Near Eastern Studies, vol. 9, no. 3 (1950): 178-181
Grant, Robert M. “One hundred-fifty three large fish (John 21:11).” The Harvard Theological Review, vol. 42, no. 4 (1949): 273-275
Grigsby, Bruce. “Gematria and John 21:11 - Another Look at Ezekiel 47:10.” The Expository Times, vol. 95 (1984): 177-178
Grigsby, Bruce. “Washing in the Pool of Siloam: A Thematic Anticipation of the
Johannine Cross.” Novum Testamentum, vol. 27, no. 3 (1985): 227-235
Hallo, William W. “Isaiah 28:9-13 and the Ugaritic Abecedaries.” Journal of Biblical
Literature, vol. 77, no. 4 (1958): 324-338
Hoskins, Edwyn. The Fourth Gospel. London: Faber and Faber, Ltd., 1947
Josephus, The New Complete Works of Josephus, trans. William Whiston. Grand Rapids,
MI: Kregel Publications, 1999
Koester, Craig R. Symbolism in the Fourth Gospel: Meaning, Mystery, Community.
Minneapolis: Fortress Press, 2003
Kohler, K. “The Essenes and the Apocalyptic Literature.” The Jewish Quarterly Review,
vol. 11, no. 2 (1920): 160
Lightfoot, R.H. St. John’s Gospel: A Commentary. London: Oxford University Press,
1956
McEleney, Neil. “153 Great Fishes (John 21:11): Gematriacal Atbash.” Biblica, vol. 3
(1977): 411-417
Miller, David. Review of Echoes of a Prophet: The Use of Ezekiel in the Gospel of John
and in Literature of the Second Temple Period, by Gary T. Manning Jr., Journal
of Biblical Literature, vol. 124, no. 2 (2005): 370
Moorhead, John. Gregory the Great. London and New York: Routledge, Taylor &
Francis Group, 2005
The Navarre Bible: St John’s Gospel. Dublin: Four Courts Press, 1999.
Neirynck, Frans. “John 21:1-14.” New Testament Studies, vol. 36 (1990): 321-336
Nestle, Eberhard and Erwin and Barbara and Kurt Aland, Novum Testamentum Graece et
Latine, Stuttgart: Deutsche Bibelgesellschaft, 1984
Owen, O. “One hundred and fifty three fishes.” The Expository Times, vol. 100 (1988):
52-54
Rasmussen, Carl G. New International Version Atlas of the Bible. Grand Rapids, MI:
Zondervan Publishing, 1989
Richardson, H. Neil. “Some Literary Parallels between Ugaritic and the Old Testament.”
Journal of Bible and Religion, vol. 20, no. 3 (1952): 172-175
Romeo, Joseph A. “Gematria and John 21:11 - the children of God.” Journal of Biblical Literature, vol. 97, no. 2 (1978): 263-264
Schaff, Philip. St. Augustin, Vol. VII, Nicene and Post-Nicene Fathers of the Christian Church. New York: Charles Scribner’s Sons, 1903
Schmidt, Josef. “Die Raetselzahl 666 in Ofeb 13:18 ein Loesungsversuch auf der basis Lateinischer Gematrie.” Novum Testamentum, vol. 14, no. 1 (2002): 45-54
Schneiders, Sandra M. “John 21:1-14.” Interpretation, vol. 43, no. 1 (1989): 6
Shaw, Alan. “Image and Symbol in John 21.” The Expository Times, vol. 86 (1975): 311
Smalley, Stephen. “Sign in John 21.” New Testament Studies, vol. 20 (1984): 275-288
Smith, Charles W.F. “Fishers of Men: Footnotes on a Gospel figure.” The Harvard Theological Review, vol. 52, no. 3 (1959): 187-203
Trudinger, Paul. “153 fishes: a response and a further suggestion.” The Expository Times,
vol. 102 (1990): 11-12
Wieder, Arnold A. “Ugaritic-Hebrew Lexicographical Notes.” Journal of Biblical
Literature, vol. 84, no. 2 (1965): 160-164
Varner, William. “The Christian use of Jewish Numerology.” The Master's Seminary
Journal (2000): 47-59
Zeitlin, Solomon. “The Assumption of Moses and the Revolt of Bar Kokba: Studies in
the Apocalyptic Literature.” The Jewish Quarterly Review, vol. 38, no. 1 (1947):
1-45
_____________________________
"The Sovereign Lord is my strength; He makes my feet like the feet of a deer, He enables me to go on the heights." Hab. 3:19
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RE: 153 fish - 3/17/2008 1:11:19 PM
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Bluethread
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I just realized, I have one aquarium with five fish and three doors in my house. This Scripture must be telling me to throw my fish out. But, I had better get confirmation from my local numerologist before I do it.
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RE: 153 fish - 3/18/2008 5:29:42 PM
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TheBelovedDisciple
Posts: 18
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quote:
ORIGINAL: 9drtr
quote:
ORIGINAL: 1love1God1way
Maybe it just means 153 fish....
I think we have a winner.
I agree,
The exact number is given in order to give us the information that the writer
was
a) an eyewitness,
b) a fisherman
c) also that he knew that it was miracle to catch such large amount of fishes in the morning and not in the night,
d) and the most important that it is not a matter of skill to catch fishes but a matter of Who said to catch the fish
even though the conditions are not the best ones.
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RE: 153 fish - 3/18/2008 5:35:31 PM
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Doc65
Posts: 277
Joined: 1/11/2008
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BelovedDisciple -
Even after all the research, work, reading, writing, bad cups of coffee, I agree, especially with point (d) - it comes down to the Word, without which there would have been no fish (great or small) in the net in John or the net in Luke.
I think God gives us these "puzzles" to make us think a little harder and not just look at the surface of Scripture and say, "Oh, that's nice". A little tentatio, meditatio, oratio goes a long ways... 
_____________________________
"The Sovereign Lord is my strength; He makes my feet like the feet of a deer, He enables me to go on the heights." Hab. 3:19
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RE: 153 fish - 3/18/2008 10:07:50 PM
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lmwal931
Posts: 96
Joined: 4/16/2005
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in john's gospel i believe it is literally true as well as symbolic sometimes.
if matthew, mark, or luke differ from john, i always put john as the truth.
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RE: 153 fish - 3/18/2008 10:10:18 PM
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Conundrum
Posts: 100
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quote:
if matthew, mark, or luke differ from john, i always put john as the truth.
Why? And are you saying that Matthew, Mark, and Luke are wrong in some spots, that they're not inspired in spots?
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RE: 153 fish - 3/25/2008 2:00:17 PM
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Little_1
Posts: 1213
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Interesting question!
I find the fact that the Bible records that the net 'had not been torn' interesting. I imagine that this was possibly mentioned because it was not intended to hold so many fish! Perhaps the answer lies in this - they counted and recorded the number of fish because they were amazed concerning what the net held without being damaged which made things doubly amazing.
Just a thought.
< Message edited by Little_1 -- 3/25/2008 2:06:57 PM >
_____________________________
"Be joyful in hope, patient in affliction, faithful in prayer." ROMANS 12:12
Testimony
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RE: 153 fish - 3/25/2008 8:16:56 PM
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SD456
Posts: 1428
Joined: 8/6/2007
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Little_1
Interesting question!
I find the fact that the Bible records that the net 'had not been torn' interesting. I imagine that this was possibly mentioned because it was not intended to hold so many fish! Perhaps the answer lies in this - they counted and recorded the number of fish because they were amazed concerning what the net held without being damaged which made things doubly amazing.
Just a thought.
Yep, that sounds good to me.
_____________________________
MY BLOG
http://reflectionsdeep.blogspot.com
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RE: 153 fish - 3/25/2008 9:41:14 PM
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lmwal931
Posts: 96
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matthew , mark, and luke are inerrant. i apologize for not being clear. john amplifies and takes the story a little further. but i do believe christology is higher in john. i believe that JESUS wrote or dictated john.
i love john. i met the beloved disciple in john. john changes things. isn't it interesting that john has the raising of lazarus and not a word in mat, luk, or mk. the wedding in john 2. the lady at the well in john 4. not a word in mat, mk, or luk. scholars are intrigued by john.
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