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RE: 144,000 NOT JEWS - 3/20/2008 9:02:25 AM
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Cephyr13
Posts: 268
Joined: 12/13/2006
From: Dallas, TX
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Consider this: The two witnesses are defined in prophecy. I won't go into details about the 1,260 days, but I will show who the two witnesses are.
Revelation 11 says that the two witnesses are the two lampstands and two olive trees before the throne of God. Revelation 1:20 defines lampstands as churches, and Romans defines the wild olive tree as the Christian/Gentile church, and the original olive tree the Jews, which we are being grafted into. Therefore, the two witnesses are the Christian church and the Jewish church.
Now, here's something else to consider in regard to this: 724 BC, the 10 northern tribes called Israel or Ephraim were taken captive by Assyria and dispersed into the world never to be heard from again, yet Ephraim is prophesied to tremble from the West, be planted in a pleasant place that is guarded by waters, and that their history is not yet over. We, in Revelation 12, have a prophecy about Israel (also called Ephraim) where she is given two wings of a great eagle to take her to a place of safety for time, times and half a time. Here's a link to my thread where the Bible will show us that time, times and half a time means 2,500 years:
http://forums.crosswalk.com/Finding_America_in_Bible_Prophecy/m_3225730/mpage_1/tm.htm#3225730
Now, take -724 BC and add 2,500 years. You get 1776 AD, the year we became a nation.
Daniel also was given two of these 2,500 year prophecies about Israel. One about the nation and one about the temple mount and beginning of the end times. The first prophecy was given in 552 according to historians, and if you do the math:
-552 BC + 2,500 = 1948 AD (the year Israel became a nation)
The second prophecy was given in -533 BC.
-533 BC + 2,500 = 1967 AD (the year the Jews got the temple mount and Jerusalem back in the 6 Day War)
We're told days equal years in prophecies in Numbers 14:34 and in Ezekiel 4:5,6, so if we take Revelation 11's two witnesses and the 1,260 days they prophecy, we can find out more about them.
Some believe the Abomination of Desolation happened in 688 AD when the Dome of the Rock began construction and a million Jews were slaughtered and the rest run out of Israel. If you take 688 AD and add 1,260 years (converting days to years, of course) as the prophecy says, then you get 1948 AD, the year the Jews became a nation again. These two witnesses are said to be prophesying in sacloth and ashes. That means mourning for the Jews. The Jews were mourning the loss of their homeland and temple. The two witnesses are most definitely the ancestors of the 12 tribes as the Bible says. However, 12,000 is just a figurative number, most likely. 12 is a significant number. A thousand is a number used to express a large number. If you say you'll do something a thousand times better, or you saw thousands of men, you are expressing large numbers. 12,000 is expressing a large number of people, not exactly 12,000 people.
That's my opinion anyway...
_____________________________
- Brian
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RE: 144,000 NOT JEWS - 3/20/2008 5:18:36 PM
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cybrjewls
Posts: 1395
Status: offline
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Greetings! It is written: It is not for you to know the times or dates the Father has set by his own authority. There will be a 'pax romano' type enforced peace on part of the false worldly prophets Empire in places worldwide except for the war that he makes on the Saints of God Most High by instituting the mark of the beast trial during the last 7 years of history before the coming of The Messiah in the Millennium Reign at Jerusalem for a thousand years. However, Jesus told us what would happen in last 7 year period in revelation and Daniel and Matthew 24. The Great Tribulation caused by so many Martyrs for Christ during this period will include the trumpets and vials which are poured out upon the false worldly prophets kingdom as written. The 144,000 are the only people left during the punishments on earth, for they are sealed so that nothing can harm them.
quote:
ORIGINAL: Cephyr13
Consider this: The two witnesses are defined in prophecy. I won't go into details about the 1,260 days, but I will show who the two witnesses are.
Revelation 11 says that the two witnesses are the two lampstands and two olive trees before the throne of God. Revelation 1:20 defines lampstands as churches, and Romans defines the wild olive tree as the Christian/Gentile church, and the original olive tree the Jews, which we are being grafted into. Therefore, the two witnesses are the Christian church and the Jewish church.
Now, here's something else to consider in regard to this: 724 BC, the 10 northern tribes called Israel or Ephraim were taken captive by Assyria and dispersed into the world never to be heard from again, yet Ephraim is prophesied to tremble from the West, be planted in a pleasant place that is guarded by waters, and that their history is not yet over. We, in Revelation 12, have a prophecy about Israel (also called Ephraim) where she is given two wings of a great eagle to take her to a place of safety for time, times and half a time. Here's a link to my thread where the Bible will show us that time, times and half a time means 2,500 years:
http://forums.crosswalk.com/Finding_America_in_Bible_Prophecy/m_3225730/mpage_1/tm.htm#3225730
Now, take -724 BC and add 2,500 years. You get 1776 AD, the year we became a nation.
Daniel also was given two of these 2,500 year prophecies about Israel. One about the nation and one about the temple mount and beginning of the end times. The first prophecy was given in 552 according to historians, and if you do the math:
-552 BC + 2,500 = 1948 AD (the year Israel became a nation)
The second prophecy was given in -533 BC.
-533 BC + 2,500 = 1967 AD (the year the Jews got the temple mount and Jerusalem back in the 6 Day War)
We're told days equal years in prophecies in Numbers 14:34 and in Ezekiel 4:5,6, so if we take Revelation 11's two witnesses and the 1,260 days they prophecy, we can find out more about them.
Some believe the Abomination of Desolation happened in 688 AD when the Dome of the Rock began construction and a million Jews were slaughtered and the rest run out of Israel. If you take 688 AD and add 1,260 years (converting days to years, of course) as the prophecy says, then you get 1948 AD, the year the Jews became a nation again. These two witnesses are said to be prophesying in sacloth and ashes. That means mourning for the Jews. The Jews were mourning the loss of their homeland and temple. The two witnesses are most definitely the ancestors of the 12 tribes as the Bible says. However, 12,000 is just a figurative number, most likely. 12 is a significant number. A thousand is a number used to express a large number. If you say you'll do something a thousand times better, or you saw thousands of men, you are expressing large numbers. 12,000 is expressing a large number of people, not exactly 12,000 people.
That's my opinion anyway...
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RE: 144,000 NOT JEWS - 3/20/2008 10:40:33 PM
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Midwest
Posts: 314
Joined: 10/19/2006
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: prophetica
quote:
ORIGINAL: Cephyr13
Consider this: The two witnesses are defined in prophecy. I won't go into details about the 1,260 days, but I will show who the two witnesses are.
Revelation 11 says that the two witnesses are the two lampstands and two olive trees before the throne of God. Revelation 1:20 defines lampstands as churches, and Romans defines the wild olive tree as the Christian/Gentile church, and the original olive tree the Jews, which we are being grafted into. Therefore, the two witnesses are the Christian church and the Jewish church.
Now, here's something else to consider in regard to this: 724 BC, the 10 northern tribes called Israel or Ephraim were taken captive by Assyria and dispersed into the world never to be heard from again, yet Ephraim is prophesied to tremble from the West, be planted in a pleasant place that is guarded by waters, and that their history is not yet over. We, in Revelation 12, have a prophecy about Israel (also called Ephraim) where she is given two wings of a great eagle to take her to a place of safety for time, times and half a time. Here's a link to my thread where the Bible will show us that time, times and half a time means 2,500 years:
http://forums.crosswalk.com/Finding_America_in_Bible_Prophecy/m_3225730/mpage_1/tm.htm#3225730
Now, take -724 BC and add 2,500 years. You get 1776 AD, the year we became a nation.
Daniel also was given two of these 2,500 year prophecies about Israel. One about the nation and one about the temple mount and beginning of the end times. The first prophecy was given in 552 according to historians, and if you do the math:
-552 BC + 2,500 = 1948 AD (the year Israel became a nation)
The second prophecy was given in -533 BC.
-533 BC + 2,500 = 1967 AD (the year the Jews got the temple mount and Jerusalem back in the 6 Day War)
We're told days equal years in prophecies in Numbers 14:34 and in Ezekiel 4:5,6, so if we take Revelation 11's two witnesses and the 1,260 days they prophecy, we can find out more about them.
Some believe the Abomination of Desolation happened in 688 AD when the Dome of the Rock began construction and a million Jews were slaughtered and the rest run out of Israel. If you take 688 AD and add 1,260 years (converting days to years, of course) as the prophecy says, then you get 1948 AD, the year the Jews became a nation again. These two witnesses are said to be prophesying in sacloth and ashes. That means mourning for the Jews. The Jews were mourning the loss of their homeland and temple. The two witnesses are most definitely the ancestors of the 12 tribes as the Bible says. However, 12,000 is just a figurative number, most likely. 12 is a significant number. A thousand is a number used to express a large number. If you say you'll do something a thousand times better, or you saw thousands of men, you are expressing large numbers. 12,000 is expressing a large number of people, not exactly 12,000 people.
That's my opinion anyway...
Greetings! It is written: It is not for you to know the times or dates the Father has set by his own authority. There will be a 'pax romano' type enforced peace on part of the false worldly prophets Empire in places worldwide except for the war that he makes on the Saints of God Most High by instituting the mark of the beast trial during the last 7 years of history before the coming of The Messiah in the Millennium Reign at Jerusalem for a thousand years. However, Jesus told us what would happen in last 7 year period in revelation and Daniel and Matthew 24. The Great Tribulation caused by so many Martyrs for Christ during this period will include the trumpets and vials which are poured out upon the false worldly prophets kingdom as written. The 144,000 are the only people left during the punishments on earth, for they are sealed so that nothing can harm them.
Mat 24:33 So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors.
Mat 24:34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.
Mat 24:35 Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.
Mat 24:36 But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.
Mat 24:37 But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
These verses refer to the second coming not all prophetic verses. Not everyone believes prophecy was given so that we could tell the future, many believe that we are better served to show where the prophecies have been fulfilled, proving the truth of the Scriptures. I believe those of us who believe that is the purpose of prophecy are in good company, look what Matthew Henry ans sir Isaac Newton had to say on the subject.
"The folly of interpreters has been to foretell times and things by this prophecy [Revelation], as if God designed to make them prophets. By this rashness they have not only exposed themselves, but brought the prophecy also into contempt. The design of God was much otherwise. He gave this and the prophecies of the Old Testament, not to gratify men's curiosities by enabling them to foreknow things, but that after they were fulfilled they might be interpreted by the event, and his own providence, not the interpreters', be then manifested thereby to the world. For the event of things predicted many ages before will then be a convincing argument that the world is governed by Providence." - Sir Isaac Newton
"Truth is the daughter of time. Scripture prophecies will be expounded by the accomplishment of them; therefore they are given, and for that explication they are reserved. Therefore they are told us before, that, when they do come to pass, we may believe." - Matthew Henry
Personally I don't see where those who have tried to use prophecy to tell the future have produced good fruit. Look at the contempt brought on the Scriptures every time the futurists have been wrong in the past. A few examples 88 Reasons Why the Rapture Could Be in 1988 or On Borrowed Time. do a google search there have been many false predictions by those who try to tell the future based on their understanding of what they think prophecy means. John was told to write about past, present and future (Rev1:19) with the present being somewhere between 60 and 100AD (depending upon ones beliefs.) Past present and future doesn't sound like just the last seven years to me. Considering approximately 1900 years have passed since John wrote Rev I think it is quite possible and well worth exploring the possibility that what was future to John could be past to us, but if you aren't interested in exploring other possibilities that's cool.
_____________________________
For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to everyone that believeth;... Romans 1:16
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RE: 144,000 NOT JEWS - 3/21/2008 12:22:14 AM
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Retrobyter
Posts: 240
Joined: 8/23/2007
From: Florida
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Cephyr13
Consider this: The two witnesses are defined in prophecy. I won't go into details about the 1,260 days, but I will show who the two witnesses are.
Revelation 11 says that the two witnesses are the two lampstands and two olive trees before the throne of God. Revelation 1:20 defines lampstands as churches, and Romans defines the wild olive tree as the Christian/Gentile church, and the original olive tree the Jews, which we are being grafted into. Therefore, the two witnesses are the Christian church and the Jewish church.
Now, here's something else to consider in regard to this: 724 BC, the 10 northern tribes called Israel or Ephraim were taken captive by Assyria and dispersed into the world never to be heard from again, yet Ephraim is prophesied to tremble from the West, be planted in a pleasant place that is guarded by waters, and that their history is not yet over. We, in Revelation 12, have a prophecy about Israel (also called Ephraim) where she is given two wings of a great eagle to take her to a place of safety for time, times and half a time. Here's a link to my thread where the Bible will show us that time, times and half a time means 2,500 years:
http://forums.crosswalk.com/Finding_America_in_Bible_Prophecy/m_3225730/mpage_1/tm.htm#3225730
Now, take -724 BC and add 2,500 years. You get 1776 AD, the year we became a nation.
Daniel also was given two of these 2,500 year prophecies about Israel. One about the nation and one about the temple mount and beginning of the end times. The first prophecy was given in 552 according to historians, and if you do the math:
-552 BC + 2,500 = 1948 AD (the year Israel became a nation)
The second prophecy was given in -533 BC.
-533 BC + 2,500 = 1967 AD (the year the Jews got the temple mount and Jerusalem back in the 6 Day War)
We're told days equal years in prophecies in Numbers 14:34 and in Ezekiel 4:5,6, so if we take Revelation 11's two witnesses and the 1,260 days they prophecy, we can find out more about them.
Some believe the Abomination of Desolation happened in 688 AD when the Dome of the Rock began construction and a million Jews were slaughtered and the rest run out of Israel. If you take 688 AD and add 1,260 years (converting days to years, of course) as the prophecy says, then you get 1948 AD, the year the Jews became a nation again. These two witnesses are said to be prophesying in sacloth and ashes. That means mourning for the Jews. The Jews were mourning the loss of their homeland and temple. The two witnesses are most definitely the ancestors of the 12 tribes as the Bible says. However, 12,000 is just a figurative number, most likely. 12 is a significant number. A thousand is a number used to express a large number. If you say you'll do something a thousand times better, or you saw thousands of men, you are expressing large numbers. 12,000 is expressing a large number of people, not exactly 12,000 people.
That's my opinion anyway...
Shalom, Cephyr13.
Yes, and you're certainly entitled to your opinion; HOWEVER,...
You've made a few calculation errors that should be pointed out to the readers: Did you remember in your calculations that there is no YEAR ZERO?! One jumps from 1 B.C. to 1 A.D.!
Secondly, the "two witnesses" are said to be individuals! Look again at the context:
Rev 11:1-14
1 And there was given me a reed like unto a rod: and the angel stood, saying, Rise, and measure the temple of God, and the altar, and them that worship therein.
2 But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months.
3 And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.
4 These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.
5 And if any man will hurt them, fire proceedeth out of their mouth, and devoureth their enemies: and if any man will hurt them, he must in this manner be killed.
6 These have power to shut heaven, that it rain not in the days of their prophecy: and have power over waters to turn them to blood, and to smite the earth with all plagues, as often as they will.
7 And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.
8 And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.
9 And they of the people and kindreds and tongues and nations shall see their dead bodies three days and an half, and shall not suffer their dead bodies to be put in graves.
10 And they that dwell upon the earth shall rejoice over them, and make merry, and shall send gifts one to another; because these two prophets tormented them that dwelt on the earth.
11 And after three days and an half the Spirit of life from God entered into them, and they stood upon their feet; and great fear fell upon them which saw them.
12 And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them.
13 And the same hour was there a great earthquake, and the tenth part of the city fell, and in the earthquake were slain of men seven thousand: and the remnant were affrighted, and gave glory to the God of heaven.
14 The second woe is past; and, behold, the third woe cometh quickly.
KJV
Again, one must "spiritualize" (allegorize) away the text to make it read otherwise. These are two prophets--two persons! NOT two "churches!" Furthermore, you've forgotten that in Christ He hath made "of twain one new man." (Eph. 2:15, KJV)
Third, why can't you just accept that the twelve tribes of Isra'el are the twelve tribes of Isra'el PERIOD?
Finally, the Abomination that makes Desolate was the way that the Jews treated their Messiah when He came during His first Advent. Yeshua` said as much when He lamented the way they treated the prophets and those who were sent to them:
Matt 23:33-39
33 Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell?
34 Wherefore, behold, I send unto you prophets, and wise men, and scribes: and some of them ye shall kill and crucify; and some of them shall ye scourge in your synagogues, and persecute them from city to city:
35 That upon you may come all the righteous blood shed upon the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel unto the blood of Zacharias son of Barachias, whom ye slew between the temple and the altar.
36 Verily I say unto you, All these things shall come upon this generation.
37 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!
38 Behold, your house is left unto you desolate.
39 For I say unto you, Ye shall not see me henceforth, till ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord.
KJV
Luke 13:32-35
32 And he said unto them, Go ye, and tell that fox, Behold, I cast out devils, and I do cures to day and to morrow, and the third day I shall be perfected.
33 Nevertheless I must walk to day, and to morrow, and the day following: for it cannot be that a prophet perish out of Jerusalem.
34 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, which killest the prophets, and stonest them that are sent unto thee; how often would I have gathered thy children together, as a hen doth gather her brood under her wings, and ye would not!
35 Behold, your house is left unto you desolate: and verily I say unto you, Ye shall not see me, until the time come when ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord.
KJV
THAT'S the "abomination that makes desolate!" Yeshua` Himself left Isra'el desolate until they can say, "Baruwk haba' b'shem YHVH."
By the way, the Hebrew for "America" is "Amer" and is not found in the prophecies at all. On the other hand, the only way that one might be able to read the United States of America into the prophecies would be to use the lion/cub analogy to Great Brittain/United States:
Nahum 2:11-13
11 Where is the dwelling of the lions, and the feedingplace of the young lions, where the lion, even the old lion, walked, and the lion's whelp, and none made them afraid?
12 The lion did tear in pieces enough for his whelps, and strangled for his lionesses, and filled his holes with prey, and his dens with ravin.
13 Behold, I am against thee, saith the LORD of hosts, and I will burn her chariots in the smoke, and the sword shall devour thy young lions: and I will cut off thy prey from the earth, and the voice of thy messengers shall no more be heard.
KJV
However, I believe this to be quite a stretch, especially in light of the fact that in the verses before this passage declare this to be about Nineveh.
Retrobyter
_____________________________
God will never abolish His Torah; He merely sent His Son to COMPLETE it so we aren't FORCED to keep it! (It's still a good idea, however.)
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RE: 144,000 NOT JEWS - 3/21/2008 2:44:39 AM
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cybrjewls
Posts: 1395
Status: offline
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Dearest Midwest! You are, of course, correct about the fact that the prophecied of revelation do not only speak of future events. For they give us markers for periods that will happen in succession as the times of the gentiles unfold. At this point, we are fast approaching the time of the fifth seal as written in revelation as the time of the Martyrs for Christ Jesus to reach their total number. These Martrys will include the people of God known as the saints of God Most High as they undergo the trial of the mark of the false worldly prophet leader known as the antichrist. For 3 1/2 years or 42 months or 1260 days plus 30-75 days they will endure this trial worldwide and they will not be able to buy or sell in the open market without the mark of the beast on their hand or head which contains the number of the name of the false prophet leader.
These things are written so that the believers can be aware of what is going to take place. And by so believing, they will be able to stand firm in the faith until the end. These will be counted worthy of priesthood and will reign with Christ Jesus for one thousand years at Jerusalem who do not take the mark of the false prophet leader. Those who take the mark of the false prophet will endure more punishment as the trumpets and vials are poured out upon them. They will also burn eternally in the new heaven before the Holy Angels of God. For they will announce The Eternal Gospel as is written to the whole world as a warning to them.
Just as Newton said:
The folly of interpreters has been to foretell times and things by this prophecy [Revelation], as if God designed to make them prophets. By this rashness they have not only exposed themselves, but brought the prophecy also into contempt. The design of God was much otherwise. He gave this and the prophecies of the Old Testament, not to gratify men's curiosities by enabling them to foreknow things, but that after they were fulfilled they might be interpreted by the event, and his own providence, not the interpreters', be then manifested thereby to the world. For the event of things predicted many ages before will then be a convincing argument that the world is governed by Providence." - Sir Isaac Newton
Newton was a oneness cultic believer. He cannot interpret the belief in the Triuness of God by Scripture. Why should we turn to him to interpret anything, then. He may be good at math and physics, but not necessarily at fatih and Sound Doctrine. You have presupposed a date, even, by your math calculation which is not supported by the teachings of The Messiah regarding dates and seasons which The Father holds and sets by His Own Authority. Even, the Son of Man does not know what the date is of His coming. How, then, do you? For it is written: 1335 days.
< Message edited by prophetica -- 3/21/2008 3:01:39 AM >
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RE: 144,000 NOT JEWS - 3/21/2008 11:16:30 AM
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Midwest
Posts: 314
Joined: 10/19/2006
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Retrobyter
Again, one must "spiritualize" (allegorize) away the text to make it read otherwise. These are two prophets--two persons! NOT two "churches!" Furthermore, you've forgotten that in Christ He hath made "of twain one new man." (Eph. 2:15, KJV)
JMHO but I believe the vast majority of Revelation is written in allegorical language. It is also my opinion that when dealing with allegorical language that we should allow Scripture to interpret Scripture. Obviously the two witnesses are not literal candlesticks or olive tress, and if we let Scripture interpret Scripture we see in Revelation that candlesticks are churches and we see in Romans that olive trees are Jews and Christians so it appears to me that Chephyr13's view is worth consideration. Nothing in the verse proves that the witnesses have to be two specific individuals and not churches.
quote:
ORIGINAL: prophetica
Dearest Midwest! You are, of course, correct about the fact that the prophecied of revelation do not only speak of future events. For they give us markers for periods that will happen in succession as the times of the gentiles unfold.
Yes and Scripture tells us the time of the Gentiles ends when Jerusalem is no longer trodden over by the Gentiles.
Luk 21:24 And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.
History shows that this happened when the Jews won the 6 day war of 1967 and regained control of Jerusalem. If the Jews control Jerusalem the the time of the Gentiles is over. So we can see that this is not a future event but already fulfilled prohecy. Even though it is a historical undeniable fact that Jerusalem is now under a Jewish govt, many refuse to believe that the time of the gentiles is over because it does not fit the preconcieved notions of their eschatology.`
quote:
At this point, we are fast approaching the time of the fifth seal as written in revelation as the time of the Martyrs for Christ Jesus to reach their total number. These Martrys will include the people of God known as the saints of God Most High as they undergo the trial of the mark of the false worldly prophet leader known as the antichrist. For 3 1/2 years or 42 months or 1260 days plus 30-75 days they will endure this trial worldwide and they will not be able to buy or sell in the open market without the mark of the beast on their hand or head which contains the number of the name of the false prophet leader.
Your certainly entitled to your opinion, but in my opinion my studies have demonstrated beyond a doubt that the 7 year trib and pretrib rapture is not a Biblically sound belief so I really am not interested in hearing the same old retoric that I have found Scripturally bankrupt, on the otherhand the more I have explored the line of reasoning that Cephyr13 is following the more truth I see in it. If you want to believe in a pretrib rapture knock yourself out but I really am not interested unless you can bring something new to the table and so for all you have shown is the same old retoric, sorry I'm just not intersted in exploring it over and over and over and over again.
quote:
These things are written so that the believers can be aware of what is going to take place. And by so believing, they will be able to stand firm in the faith until the end. These will be counted worthy of priesthood and will reign with Christ Jesus for one thousand years at Jerusalem who do not take the mark of the false prophet leader. Those who take the mark of the false prophet will endure more punishment as the trumpets and vials are poured out upon them. They will also burn eternally in the new heaven before the Holy Angels of God. For they will announce The Eternal Gospel as is written to the whole world as a warning to them.
Once again that is not fact, only your opinion and an opinion I have found lacking, look at the fruits of the futurists view, what good has come from it? Isn't it possible that those who hold a futurtist view could miss prophecy unfolding right before their eyes because their preconcieved notions are incorrect and as a result are looking for something that is not going to happen as they thought it would? Are you a prophet has God shown you the future? If not then all you have is a belief based on what you assume the prophetic verses mean, what proof do you have that things will come to pass as you say they wil? Considering that much of what you say is future can be shown as already having been fulfilled I really don't see any merit to your belief or reason to even explore it. If you choose to deny the fact that Jerusalem is now under Jewish control again, or that Chiloi is an indefinite plural and not a definite thousand, because it does not fit your eschatology so be it, your choice. Just don't expect me to follow your lead, you can jump off that cliff by yourself I am not interested and see no sense exploring that view again unless you have something new to bring to the table.
quote:
Just as Newton said:
The folly of interpreters has been to foretell times and things by this prophecy [Revelation], as if God designed to make them prophets. By this rashness they have not only exposed themselves, but brought the prophecy also into contempt. The design of God was much otherwise. He gave this and the prophecies of the Old Testament, not to gratify men's curiosities by enabling them to foreknow things, but that after they were fulfilled they might be interpreted by the event, and his own providence, not the interpreters', be then manifested thereby to the world. For the event of things predicted many ages before will then be a convincing argument that the world is governed by Providence." - Sir Isaac Newton
Newton was a oneness cultic believer. He cannot interpret the belief in the Triuness of God by Scripture. Why should we turn to him to interpret anything, then. He may be good at math and physics, but not necessarily at fatih and Sound Doctrine.
Whether or not Newton believed in the trinity is irrelevent to the subject being discussed, you and I were discussing the purpose of prophecy not the trinity. Just because Newton did not understand the trinity does not mean that everything esle he wrote is false. Personally I have found his statement makes much more sense then believing one can tell the future just because they have read the prophetic verses. JMHO but the only thing the foretune tellers have done is bring the Scripture into contempt (88 reasons for 88) It appears that the noted theoligian Matthew Henry was in agreement with Sir Isaac Newton;
"Truth is the daughter of time. Scripture prophecies will be expounded by the accomplishment of them; therefore they are given, and for that explication they are reserved. Therefore they are told us before, that, when they do come to pass, we may believe." - Matthew Henry
Or do you discredit everything Matthew Henry says also because you disagree with some of what he said?
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You have presupposed a date, even, by your math calculation which is not supported by the teachings of The Messiah regarding dates and seasons which The Father holds and sets by His Own Authority. Even, the Son of Man does not know what the date is of His coming. How, then, do you? For it is written: 1335 days.
You act as if we are saying we know when the Lord will return, no one knows that except God, nor have we indicated we know the date, the season yes but not the day hour or year. Had you read the many numerous posts you have replied to concerning this subject you would know the method that was used to show where prophecy has been fulfilled, so why explain again when you won't even take the time to read and attempt to gain an understanding of anothers view? God did determine when these events would take place but he only said we would not know the day or hour of the second coming. He never said that after other things in prophecy were fulfilled we would not be able to recognize them. If they have already been fulfilled why wouldn't we be able to place a date on something that has already occured.Most who take the time to give this view an honest open evaluation have found it to be a Scripturally sound hermeneutic study that fits history and Scripture better then any other view they have studied. Of course one must take the time to look at the view in its entirety, afterall you can't tell what a puzzle looks like by just looking at one or two pieces, so do yourself a favor and explore alternative views in their entirety before judging them.
Maybe we should get back to topic no sense sidetracking the thread any further.
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For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to everyone that believeth;... Romans 1:16
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RE: 144,000 NOT JEWS - 3/21/2008 11:24:49 AM
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bob97
Posts: 1609
Joined: 6/24/2006
From: Kansas
Status: offline
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quote:
Yes and Scripture tells us the time of the Gentiles ends when Jerusalem is no longer trodden over by the Gentiles.
Luk 21:24 And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.
History shows that this happened when the Jews won the 6 day war of 1967 and regained control of Jerusalem. If the Jews control Jerusalem the the time of the Gentiles is over. So we can see that this is not a future event but already fulfilled prohecy. Even though it is a historical undeniable fact that Jerusalem is now under a Jewish govt, many refuse to believe that the time of the gentiles is over because it does not fit the preconcieved notions of their eschatology.`
Midwest...are you saying that the events described in Revelation regarding Antichrist, his defiling the temple and the resulting destruction which occurs in Jerusalem is history?
Bob
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The LORD clears the road for me!
The LORD is my high ridge, my stronghold, my deliverer!
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RE: 144,000 NOT JEWS - 3/21/2008 11:58:22 AM
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Midwest
Posts: 314
Joined: 10/19/2006
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: bob97
quote:
Yes and Scripture tells us the time of the Gentiles ends when Jerusalem is no longer trodden over by the Gentiles.
Luk 21:24 And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.
History shows that this happened when the Jews won the 6 day war of 1967 and regained control of Jerusalem. If the Jews control Jerusalem the the time of the Gentiles is over. So we can see that this is not a future event but already fulfilled prohecy. Even though it is a historical undeniable fact that Jerusalem is now under a Jewish govt, many refuse to believe that the time of the gentiles is over because it does not fit the preconcieved notions of their eschatology.`
Midwest...are you saying that the events described in Revelation regarding Antichrist, his defiling the temple and the resulting destruction which occurs in Jerusalem is history?
Bob
Hi Bob (good name, even if you get mixed up and spell it backwords it still works) JMHO but I don't see where Revelation even uses the word antichrist or describes a temple being defiled. Would you be kind enough to show the verses in Revelation that in your understanding say this will happen?
I don't believe in a future endtime individual world leader known as "The Antichrist", it is my understanding that the only 4 verses containing the word antichrist or antichrists say that there are many and they were already in the world when John wrote the verses. None of them say antichrist is a single individual that appears for in the future during the end times.
1Jn 2:18 Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time.
1Jn 2:22 Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son
1Jn 4:3 And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.
2Jn 1:7 For many deceivers are entered into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist.
2Ti 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
God is the inspiration of all Scripture and God is not the author of confusion. I am sure He knew He was going to inspire Paul to write the verses he wrote so if he meant for us to believe the temple is located anywhere other then where His inspired writings tell us it is I think He would have told us that location just to prevent a misunderstanding. Let's also consider:
Mat 26:61 And said, This fellow said, I am able to destroy the temple of God, and to build it in three days.
The temple of God referenced in the verse above is Jesus' body.
Joh 2:21 "But he spake of the temple of his body."
The building again in three days is further confirmed by the following:
1Co 3:16 Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?
1Co 3:17 If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are.
2Co 6:16 And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? for ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in them; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people.
Let's also remember that for a temple to be the temple of God, God would have to dwell in it and when we consider what Acts17:24 tells us I think it reasonable to conclude that no future manmade temple will ever be the temple of God.
Acts 17:24 God that made the world and all things therein, seeing that he is Lord of heaven and earth, dwelleth not in temples made with hands;
So if God no longer dwells in man made temples how will a future temple built by man be the temple of God?
Do you believe Jerusalem is still trodden over by the Gentiles? If so how do you explain what happened during the 6 day war when Jerusalem regained control of Jerusalem?
Be blessed and may God bless our studies!
< Message edited by Midwest -- 3/21/2008 12:14:18 PM >
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For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to everyone that believeth;... Romans 1:16
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RE: 144,000 NOT JEWS - 3/21/2008 8:03:05 PM
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cybrjewls
Posts: 1395
Status: offline
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Greetings and Blessings in Christ Jesus our Lord and Savior. The 42 month period when the gentile nations will gather under 10 worldwide leaders to trample the Holy City of Jerusalem as it written has not occured yet. For the same period of time, which is 1260 days, the two witnesses will prophecy at Jerusalem concerning the nations on the earth as written in revelation. The saints of God Almighty will endure war because they will institute the mark of the beast which is the number of the name of the false prophet forcing everyone to receive this mark on their hand or head and causing them to be killed who do not do so. No one can buy or sell anything unless they have the mark on them in the open market.
The Great tribulation Judgments will occur as is written after the rapture event, which happens 30-75 days after the 42 month or 3 1/2 year or 1260 day period. Concerning the 144,000 who are sealed, they will not be harmed by any of the Judgment desolation decrees that have been issued by God to be poured out on the kingdom of the beast and those that have the mark of the beast.
These Martyrs for Christ will reign with Him at Jerusalem after the first resurrection as written. They will be priests of God and they will minister to the nations for a thousand years. Then armaggedon will occur as written for the devil will be released from the bottomless pit to deceive the nations once more.
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ORIGINAL: Midwest
< Message edited by prophetica -- 3/21/2008 8:10:22 PM >
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RE: 144,000 NOT JEWS - 3/22/2008 9:29:54 AM
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Cephyr13
Posts: 268
Joined: 12/13/2006
From: Dallas, TX
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Retrobyter
Shalom, Cephyr13.
Yes, and you're certainly entitled to your opinion; HOWEVER,...
You've made a few calculation errors that should be pointed out to the readers: Did you remember in your calculations that there is no YEAR ZERO?! One jumps from 1 B.C. to 1 A.D.!
You are welcome to check the math yourself. Because of the 1 - 3 year ambiguity with BC dating (some say much bigger than that) and the misunderstandings about the zero year, the only way to do the math is to include the zero year. If you'll notice, Jesus was 33 when He died, yet most historians agree that 32 AD was the year He died. Therefore, Jesus born either on the zero year, or 1 BC. See the dilema? So, usually, historians don't fret over the zero year too much.
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Secondly, the "two witnesses" are said to be individuals! Look again at the context:
Rev 11:1-14
1 And there was given me a reed like unto a rod: and the angel stood, saying, Rise, and measure the temple of God, and the altar, and them that worship therein.
2 But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months.
3 And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.
4 These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.
5 And if any man will hurt them, fire proceedeth out of their mouth, and devoureth their enemies: and if any man will hurt them, he must in this manner be killed.
6 These have power to shut heaven, that it rain not in the days of their prophecy: and have power over waters to turn them to blood, and to smite the earth with all plagues, as often as they will.
7 And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.
8 And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.
9 And they of the people and kindreds and tongues and nations shall see their dead bodies three days and an half, and shall not suffer their dead bodies to be put in graves.
10 And they that dwell upon the earth shall rejoice over them, and make merry, and shall send gifts one to another; because these two prophets tormented them that dwelt on the earth.
11 And after three days and an half the Spirit of life from God entered into them, and they stood upon their feet; and great fear fell upon them which saw them.
12 And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them.
13 And the same hour was there a great earthquake, and the tenth part of the city fell, and in the earthquake were slain of men seven thousand: and the remnant were affrighted, and gave glory to the God of heaven.
14 The second woe is past; and, behold, the third woe cometh quickly.
KJV
Again, one must "spiritualize" (allegorize) away the text to make it read otherwise. These are two prophets--two persons! NOT two "churches!"
I'm spiritualizing nothing here. It's metaphor, not spiritualization. God is using two people to represent two churches. Please allow me to show you another part of revelation where this is done:
Revelation 12:14
14But the two wings of the great eagle were given to the woman, so that she could fly into the wilderness to her place, where she was nourished for a time and times and half a time, from the presence of the serpent.
Everyone agrees that this "woman" spoken of here is representing Israel. But if you are correct in saying that if the text says "two people" then it means "two people," then you must also say that this is a literal woman being carried away into the wilderness. Yet we know that's not correct. We know this woman is Israel, and therefore, the two witnesses may also be a metaphore for the churches. And we get confirmation of that when it says that they are two lampstands and two olive trees before God.
All I did was look at the text and read it for what it says and interpret it properly. I don't see how that's incorrect at all. We know much of Revelation has metaphoricals and symbolism. That's common throughout the entire book. Why, suddenly, are the two witnesses exempt from this possibility?
Please allow me to show the symbolism here...
It says these two witnesses are "clothed in sackcloth and ashes." For the Jews, clothing themselves in sackcloth and ashes meant that they were mourning something. The sackcloth and ashes REPRESENTED mourning. They would mourn loss this way when someone died. When they were lead away captive into Babylon, they would mourn in sackcloth and ashes. In this passage, we see that the two witnesses are clothed in sackcloth and ashes, meaning they're mourning the loss of something.
Tell me, why would two prophesying witnesses in the middle of Jerusalem be clothed in sackcloth and ashes why they prophesied? Did any prophet in the Bible prophesy while clothed in sackloth and ashes? Daniel mourned while waiting for a vision to be interpreted, if I remember correctly, but that's it.
Furthermore, if these are two men and a literal 1,260 days, then why are they called two lampstands and two olive trees before God? And why when we look up the only references to lampstands and oliver trees in the New Testament do we find that they mean the Jewish Church and the Christian church? Why identify these two witnesses like that if they're two people and not two churches? Was God just messing with us trying to throw us off track? Of course not. It's metaphorical, not spiritualized.
Please, answer my questions in the above two paragraphs. I'd like to see your answers.
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Furthermore, you've forgotten that in Christ He hath made "of twain one new man." (Eph. 2:15, KJV)
Sorry, but this is talking about us, personally, on a personal and spiritual level. This has nothing to do with the two witnesses.
However, I can use this against you to further prove my point about the two witnesses. We're told the two witnesses are two lampstands and olive trees. So, if that means we're two churches, Christian and Jews, it also means that the olive tree reference is correct and that the Christians are being grafted into the Jews (wild olive tree is being grafted into the original olive tree according to Romans). So, the two become one. Thanks for proving that verse to strengthen my case. I appreciate it.
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Third, why can't you just accept that the twelve tribes of Isra'el are the twelve tribes of Isra'el PERIOD?
They are the 12 tribes of Israel. I never said they weren't. I even showed how the 10 norther tribes of Israel (called Israel or Ephraim) were taken captive by Assyria in 724 BC and then dispersed into the rest of the world, never to be heard from again. In other words, 10 of the 12 tribes of Israel were scattered into the world. So there are people from Israel all over the world that mixed with other races of peoples. If you look at the time, times and half a time prophecies, you'll see that they mean 2,500 years, and from 724 BC to 1776 AD is exactly 2,500 years, and 1776 was the year the United States became a nation (Revelation 12). The United States is then, apparently, a large portion of those 10 tribes of Israel.
Remember, after Ephraim/Israel (northern 10 tribes) has been dispersed into the world and never heard from again, God prophesies about Ephraim returning. It says Ephraim will tremble from the West, will be planted in a pleasant place (in other words, planted in a different location than before) and guarded by waters. So, the United States is guarded by waters on two sides, and nations that are weak militarily on the other two sides, and then more water. The United States is as far West as you can go before getting to the East again. And the United States is made up of people from all nations around the world. We also are the only nation besides Israel that is built on a constitution that is designed with Judao-Christian values, and in less than 200 years, we became the world superpower by that constitution and those values. We are also the nation that protects Israel, and if we didn't, no one else would.
On top of that, God gave the Levites 48 cities within the nation of Israel, so that every tribe would have priests who could give sacrifices. The United States has 48 contiguous states as of 1917. Also, the original 12 tribes became 13 tribes after the tribe of Joseph split into Ephraim and Menasseh. The United States had 12 colonies, but Carolina was too big to govern, so it split into North and South Carolina, and that became our original 13 colonies. Our flag, from 1917 to 1959 had 48 stars and 13 stripes representing these two things.
Now, don't you find it a little bit too coincidental that the two things we have in common with old Israel (unbeknownst to us) just happen to be the two things we decide to put on our flag?? Sorry, but that's no coincidence. Many of our founders said this this nation was destined by God Himself. The Pilgrams even said that they did not know why, but God had told them to move to the Americas and build a new life here. And finally, in Revelation, the woman (Israel/Ephraim) is given two wings of a great eagle that carry her into the wilderness for safety. Interesting how the United States took on the symbol of this great eagle as their national symbol. Far too many coincidences if you ask me.
So, if we are not part of the 10 tribes, then where is Ephraim since they are prophesied to return?
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Finally, the Abomination that makes Desolate was the way that the Jews treated their Messiah when He came during His first Advent. Yeshua` said as much when He lamented the way they treated the prophets and those who were sent to them:
Matt 23:33-39
33 Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell?
34 Wherefore, behold, I send unto you prophets, and wise men, and scribes: and some of them ye shall kill and crucify; and some of them shall ye scourge in your synagogues, and persecute them from city to city:
35 That upon you may come all the righteous blood shed upon the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel unto the blood of Zacharias son of Barachias, whom ye slew between the temple and the altar.
36 Verily I say unto you, All these things shall come upon this generation.
37 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!
38 Behold, your house is left unto you desolate.
39 For I say unto you, Ye shall not see me henceforth, till ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord.
KJV
Luke 13:32-35
32 And he said unto them, Go ye, and tell that fox, Behold, I cast out devils, and I do cures to day and to morrow, and the third day I shall be perfected.
33 Nevertheless I must walk to day, and to morrow, and the day following: for it cannot be that a prophet perish out of Jerusalem.
34 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, which killest the prophets, and stonest them that are sent unto thee; how often would I have gathered thy children together, as a hen doth gather her brood under her wings, and ye would not!
35 Behold, your house is left unto you desolate: and verily I say unto you, Ye shall not see me, until the time come when ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord.
KJV
THAT'S the "abomination that makes desolate!" Yeshua` Himself left Isra'el desolate until they can say, "Baruwk haba' b'shem YHVH."
If that is the case, then please show me how Jesus, as the abomination of desolation, stood in the holy place (in the temple or on the temple mount). Also, please show me how this abomination of desolation was "set up" as Daniel says. Jesus Himself said that when you see the Abomination of Desolation standing in the holy place (which Jesus did not stand on the temple mount while tortured or crucified), let those in Judea (Jerusalem) flee for there will be great tribulation as never has been before nor ever will be again. So, please show me where millions of Jews or Christians were suddenly slaughtered worse than anytime in history RIGHT at Jesus' death.
Oh wait, you cannot show that, because there weren't hardly any Christians at that time, and that was not the greatest time of tribulation for the Jews or Christians, because in 688 AD, a million Jews were slaughtered after the Dome of the Rock started construction, but the Christians (who had Jesus' Matthew 24 prophecy to leave Jerusalem when they saw the Abomination of Desolation standing in the holy place) left Jerusalem and none were killed. 6 million Jews were killed by Hitler in 1941-1945. Jews were hunted down and slaughtered for 1,260 years, starting in 688 AD and ending in 1948 AD when they became a nation again. Then, their numbers grew excessively due to people not hunting them down anymore because they finally had a nation of their own again. From 688 AD to 1776 AD, more Christians were killed than any any other time in history. So, as you can see, Jesus' crucifiction was not at all the beginning of the great tribulation. There were much worse times after that. And also, at the end of the supposed 3 1/2 years you claim the great tribulation lasts, there should've been a coming of Jesus (rapture) shortly after that according to Him in Matthew 24. When did that happen?
Sorry, but if you were correct that Jesus being crucified was the Abomination of Desolation, then there are tons of prophecies that didn't come true and you have a lot of explaining to do.
Even a Rabbi who heard the Muslims discussing the building of the Dome of the Rock was quoted as saying that it was the Abomination of Desolation spoken of by Daniel the prophet.
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By the way, the Hebrew for "America" is "Amer" and is not found in the prophecies at all. On the other hand, the only way that one might be able to read the United States of America into the prophecies would be to use the lion/cub analogy to Great Brittain/United States:
Nahum 2:11-13
11 Where is the dwelling of the lions, and the feedingplace of the young lions, where the lion, even the old lion, walked, and the lion's whelp, and none made them afraid?
12 The lion did tear in pieces enough for his whelps, and strangled for his lionesses, and filled his holes with prey, and his dens with ravin.
13 Behold, I am against thee, saith the LORD of hosts, and I will burn her chariots in the smoke, and the sword shall devour thy young lions: and I will cut off thy prey from the earth, and the voice of thy messengers shall no more be heard.
KJV
However, I believe this to be quite a stretch, especially in light of the fact that in the verses before this passage declare this to be about Nineveh.
Retrobyter
If you look in Daniel chapter 7, you'll see a leopard, bear and a lion with eagle's wings depicted, and then we're told that those are nations later in the chapter. None are named by name. Yet we know that the symbol of Persia was the lion with eagle's wings, Assyria had a bear as their symbol, and Babylon had a leopard (I think I got those correct... may have gotten two mixed up). So, are you saying that for America to be a legitimate part of Bible history is must be named, not represented by a symbol or other means like other nations in the Bible are?
Oh, and the lion laying with the lamb is not depicting America...
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- Brian
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RE: 144,000 NOT JEWS - 3/22/2008 9:46:17 AM
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Cephyr13
Posts: 268
Joined: 12/13/2006
From: Dallas, TX
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: bob97
quote:
Yes and Scripture tells us the time of the Gentiles ends when Jerusalem is no longer trodden over by the Gentiles.
Luk 21:24 And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.
History shows that this happened when the Jews won the 6 day war of 1967 and regained control of Jerusalem. If the Jews control Jerusalem the the time of the Gentiles is over. So we can see that this is not a future event but already fulfilled prohecy. Even though it is a historical undeniable fact that Jerusalem is now under a Jewish govt, many refuse to believe that the time of the gentiles is over because it does not fit the preconcieved notions of their eschatology.`
Midwest...are you saying that the events described in Revelation regarding Antichrist, his defiling the temple and the resulting destruction which occurs in Jerusalem is history?
Bob
The only place in the Bible "antichrist" is used is in 1 & 2 John:
1 John 2:18
Children, it is the last hour; and just as you heard that antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have appeared; from this we know that it is the last hour.
1 John 2:22
Who is the liar but the one who denies that Jesus is the Christ? This is the antichrist, the one who denies the Father and the Son.
1 John 4:3
and every spirit that does not confess Jesus is not from God; this is the spirit of the antichrist, of which you have heard that it is coming, and now it is already in the world.
2 John 1:7
For many deceivers have gone out into the world, those who do not acknowledge Jesus Christ as coming in the flesh. This is the deceiver and the antichrist.
So, if you take those verses into account, they are identifying the antichrist as simply a spirit. Check out that last verse. It says that "many deceivers have gone out into the world, those who do not acknowledge Jesus Christ as coming in the flesh. THIS IS THE DECEIVER AND THE ANTICHRIST." That's a major statement there. It just called these people influenced by this spirit of antichrist which is mentioned in the verse above, 1 John 2:18 & 1 John 4:3. We are never told that the antichrist is an actual, single man. Quite the contrary in those verses above. We're told it's a spirit of antichrist, and that many people are apparently displaying antichrist traits by denying Christ DUE to this spirit's influence of being anti-Christ.
Please show me a verse that shows the antichrist is a single person, not a spirit, that will be here only at the end and will walk into the temple claiming to be God.
All I see is a "man of sin, man of lawlessness" setting up shop in a temple on the temple mount boasting himself to be above God. And in my opinion, that's slightly metaphorical in nature. Because the Dome of the Rock was built as a tribute to Muhommed and Allah. Muhommed boasts himself the prophet of Allah, and boasts that Allah is above all Gods, which is stated on plaques in the Dome of the Rock. Also, it is stated on plaques in the Dome of the Rock that God would not have a son. That's very antichrist if you ask me. We also know that when we break down the beasts in Daniel and Revelation, three beasts are the Muslim nations of Assyria, Babylon and Persian (Syria, Iraq & Iran, respectively). And we're told those beasts are allowed to live a season and a time after the Roman beast is crushed. They are still here today and they are causing hell in the world right now. Syria offered openly to hide Iran's weapons of mass destruction (WMDs) if the weapons inspectors came to do inspections. One of Saddam's top generals that defected said that Saddam shipped his WMDs to Syria shortly before the war started. We knew Saddam had WMDs, because he used them on his own people and on the attacking Iranians back in the first Gulf War. The big surprize was that we couldn't find them. We did find some underground hidden labs that had biological weapons cashes, but apparently they were not enough to be constituted as "WMDs." I have no idea why... That was on the new years ago, but no one seemed to consider those WMDs, maybe because there were not missiles attached to them as delivery systems. Who knows?
The point is that those three nations are depicted in prophecy as being the beast in regard to the mark of the beast. They're all Muslim. The Muslims admit that the number of the Koran is 666. The Jews have a tradition I'm sure you're familiar with, where they tie tiny boxes to their forehead and right hand, and in those boxes are the Law from the Bible. If a Jew hears that a "mark" will be on their right hand and their forehead, in regard to the mark of the beast, they will immediately identify with their own tradition of the boxes on the forehead and right hand. The symbolism is this: What we believe in our head, the Law, we carry out with the works of our hand. And the Muslims have a book, the Koran, that contains their Sharia Law, which says to kill the infidels, amongst other things. They believe this in their head, and carry it out with their hands. And according to Sharia Law, if you're not a Muslim, you are to be killed if you won't convert. So buying and selling would not be possible if we were ruled by Sharia Law. Meaning if you don't have the mark of the beast (belief in the Koran), meaning you won't convert, then you not only can't buy or sell, but you'll be killed. We can ID Islam as the spirit of antichrist in large part, and the false prophet as Muhommed. And that would mean the Dome of the Rock is accurately the Abomination of Desolation that is "set up" on the temple mount, as Daniel and Jesus spoke of. So 2 Thess 2:2-4 about the man of sin, man of lawlessness is speaking of Muhommed and Allah and the Dome of the Rock being set up on the temple mount.
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- Brian
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RE: 144,000 NOT JEWS - 3/22/2008 10:01:00 AM
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Lapidoth
Posts: 2784
Joined: 4/13/2005
From: OKLAHOMA
Status: offline
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quote:
historians don't fret over the zero year too much.
LOL. Must be where the phrase came from that says:
"Don't confuse me with the facts, I've got my mind made up."
_____________________________
Why does He keep quoting Torah? Doesn't He know He's about to abolish it?
http://www.tedpearce.com/Videos/TheForgottenpeople.html
BARUCH HABA BASHEM YAHUAH
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RE: 144,000 NOT JEWS - 3/22/2008 11:25:00 AM
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bob97
Posts: 1609
Joined: 6/24/2006
From: Kansas
Status: offline
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quote:
Please show me a verse that shows the antichrist is a single person, not a spirit, that will be here only at the end and will walk into the temple claiming to be God.
Gee…I don’t know but maybe this one will work.
2Th 2:4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself5229 above all that is called God, or that is worshiped; so that he846 as God sitteth in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God.
G5229
ὑπεραίρομαι
huperairomai
hoop-er-ah'ee-rom-ahee
Middle voice from G5228 and G142; to raise oneself over, that is, (figuratively) to become haughty: - exalt self, be exalted above measure.
G846
αὐτός
autos
ow-tos'
From the particle αὖ au (perhaps akin to the base of G109 through the idea of a baffling wind; backward); the reflexive pronoun self, used (alone or in the compound of G1438) of the third person, and (with the proper personal pronoun) of the other persons: - her, it (-self), one, the other, (mine) own, said, ([self-], the) same, ([him-, my-, thy-]) self, [your-] selves, she, that, their (-s), them ([-selves]), there [-at, -by, -in, -into, -of, -on, -with], they, (these) things, this (man), those, together, very, which. Compare G848.
I know you’re going to tell me that this is spiritual but please tell me how any one man or spirit could accomplish this in the presents of God?
Your Eschatology is misleading and you are setting your self above most other schools of thoughts and I say your position is dangerious.
Bob
_____________________________
The LORD clears the road for me!
The LORD is my high ridge, my stronghold, my deliverer!
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RE: 144,000 NOT JEWS - 3/22/2008 2:51:59 PM
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Midwest
Posts: 314
Joined: 10/19/2006
Status: offline
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