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RE: 144,000 NOT JEWS - 2/22/2008 2:11:53 AM
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angelfun
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Hi, I confirm that the 144,000 sealed are Jews. 
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RE: 144,000 NOT JEWS - 2/22/2008 3:12:24 PM
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Sinner-Saint
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Oh, okay, because this list is exactly like the list of the twelve tribes used everywhere else, right?
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RE: 144,000 NOT JEWS - 2/22/2008 3:50:08 PM
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yod
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Sinner-Saint
Oh, okay, because this list is exactly like the list of the twelve tribes used everywhere else, right?
well there is that....
and the fact that bible says they are the sons of Israel and everywhere else in the bible where it says the word "jew" it is referring to the sons of Israel.
It's obvious if one understands that words have meaning and then knows how to follow grammatical structure on a basic elementary school level.
The truth doesn't change just because people refuse to acknowledge it.
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RE: 144,000 NOT JEWS - 2/24/2008 11:23:41 PM
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Farquar
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I think Jesus alludes to these people in J6;45
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RE: 144,000 NOT JEWS - 2/25/2008 12:09:22 AM
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Sinner-Saint
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quote:
ORIGINAL: yod
and the fact that bible says they are the sons of Israel and everywhere else in the bible where it says the word "jew" it is referring to the sons of Israel.
God also reveals in Revelation through John that the offspring of the woman are Christians.
So who, in truth, are her sons?
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RE: 144,000 NOT JEWS - 2/26/2008 6:25:42 PM
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Lapidoth
Posts: 2956
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Here's a new perspective I've heard.
When the Israelites gather on the Temple Mount at one
of the required Feasts and so declare "Blessed is He who
comes in the name of the Lord!" fully expecting the Messiah
to arrive as was rehearsed for thousands of years, there will
be invitations going out for that event as everyone won't fit
on the Temple Mount. Got a wonder? lol.
144,000 invitations to the Great Last Day Feast!
Only twelve thousand invitations per tribe.
_____________________________
Why does He keep quoting Torah? Doesn't He know He's about to abolish it?
http://www.tedpearce.com/Videos/TheForgottenpeople.html
BARUCH HABA BASHEM YAHUAH
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RE: 144,000 NOT JEWS - 3/1/2008 5:37:25 PM
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Marcus.
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Isn't that after the Isaiah 13:12 time frame. So there won't be very many people left.
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RE: 144,000 NOT JEWS - 3/1/2008 7:17:14 PM
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Sinner-Saint
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The Bible confirms them as the Firstfuits of the Harvest which is the Church.
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RE: 144,000 NOT JEWS - 3/5/2008 12:57:07 PM
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LBolt
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Why does it go on to name specific tribal names such as Ruben, Isaachar, Naphtali... if it meant "the church?"
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Wisdom is the principle thing; therefore get wisdom: and with all thy getting get understanding...she shall give to thine head an ornament of grace..---Proverbs 4:7,9
You mean there was grace in the Old Testament?!!!
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RE: 144,000 NOT JEWS - 3/5/2008 1:04:06 PM
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Lapidoth
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quote:
Why does it go on to name specific tribal names such as Ruben, Isaachar, Naphtali... if it meant "the church?"
Because they are? lol.
Four levels of understanding:
#1. The face value meaning of the Text.
Which we have here. {The foundation for all other interpretations.}
#2. The implied meaning of the Text.
Since we have the face value, there's nothing to implyIMHO
#3. Allegorical or typological application of the Text.
Again, we have the face value.
#4. Hidden or secret meaning of the Text.
Let's see: 12 tribes named? Must be Jews.
_____________________________
Why does He keep quoting Torah? Doesn't He know He's about to abolish it?
http://www.tedpearce.com/Videos/TheForgottenpeople.html
BARUCH HABA BASHEM YAHUAH
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RE: 144,000 NOT JEWS - 3/5/2008 2:58:30 PM
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Sinner-Saint
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quote:
ORIGINAL: LBolt
Why does it go on to name specific tribal names such as Ruben, Isaachar, Naphtali... if it meant "the church?"
And on the other side of the argument, since there is a spiritual Israel as well: how can this mean the physical nation of Israel when the list doesn't match ANY list of tribes.
Don't you think John, as a Jew, knew who the tribes were? If he were trying to describe just Jews: why is there a unique list?
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RE: 144,000 NOT JEWS - 3/5/2008 3:04:14 PM
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Sinner-Saint
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Again, since the 144,000 are never said to be Jews in the Bible -
BUT are said to be the Firstfruits of the Harvest -
- And the Church is looking forward to its Harvest so as to be with God -
Then the 144,000 would have to qualify as being part of the Elect.
Do the Jews, who presently reject Jesus, merit inclusion as part of the Elect like the Church does?
No.
Therefore: from whom do the 144,000 originate since they are Firstfruits?
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RE: 144,000 NOT JEWS - 3/5/2008 3:07:32 PM
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LBolt
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Were is the term "spiritual Israel" in scripture? or the implication?
_____________________________
Wisdom is the principle thing; therefore get wisdom: and with all thy getting get understanding...she shall give to thine head an ornament of grace..---Proverbs 4:7,9
You mean there was grace in the Old Testament?!!!
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RE: 144,000 NOT JEWS - 3/5/2008 3:26:59 PM
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bob97
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quote:
BUT are said to be the Firstfruits of the Harvest
It has to be my feeling that the 144,000 are the Firstfruits of the redemption of Israel and as such are Jews. If this event happens in concert with the Feasts, then it would occur conjunction to The Feast of Unleavened Bread.
Bob
_____________________________
The LORD clears the road for me!
The LORD is my high ridge, my stronghold, my deliverer!
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RE: 144,000 NOT JEWS - 3/5/2008 3:48:13 PM
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Sinner-Saint
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quote:
ORIGINAL: LBolt
Were is the term "spiritual Israel" in scripture? or the implication?
Four different meanings can be ascribed to ‘Israel’ in the Bible:
• the land,
• the person,
• the natural descendants of the person,
• and finally those who inherit the title or God’s chosen people in the spiritual aspect of the word.
Furthermore, evidence in the Bible exists for the transition from the nation of Israel as being the physical descendants to being a nation of believers. Supporting this concept in the Old Testament which is reaffirmed in the New Testament, language can be found that effectively shifts the meaning of Israel to the Church when a spiritual aspect is indicated.
The fourth group denoting the spiritual aspect comes from this plan. The inclusion of the Gentiles comes about with the Church. Remarked most strongly in the New Testament, a common refrain is that the Church age was unseen by the prophets. The idea that the Church was not foreseen or was looked over by the prophets is not supported entirely. Passages hint at indications for a new people God’s favors to emerge. Once again God hides His intentions in plain sight. Included with describing the coming Servant, verses describe the new attribute God’s people will have: faith, belief, and trust.
ISA 28:16 So this is what the Sovereign LORD says:
"See, I lay a stone in Zion,
a tested stone,
a precious cornerstone for a sure foundation;
the one who trusts will never be dismayed.
This verse is imbedded within a larger section of text decrying the rulers in Jerusalem. In response, this messianic prophecy sets a new standard, one of faith and trust. From there, the Lord says righteousness will be the plumb line.
ISA 53:1 Who has believed our message
and to whom has the arm of the LORD been revealed?
Meanwhile the transference to a new people is made forcibly in the New Testament. Showing this passing of the covenant relationship is consistent with a parable Jesus spoke of the vineyard:
MT 21:33 "Listen to another parable: There was a landowner who planted a vineyard. He put a wall around it, dug a winepress in it and built a watchtower. Then he rented the vineyard to some farmers and went away on a journey. 34 When the harvest time approached, he sent his servants to the tenants to collect his fruit.
MT 21:35 "The tenants seized his servants; they beat one, killed another, and stoned a third. 36 Then he sent other servants to them, more than the first time, and the tenants treated them the same way. 37 Last of all, he sent his son to them. `They will respect my son,' he said.
MT 21:38 "But when the tenants saw the son, they said to each other, `This is the heir. Come, let's kill him and take his inheritance.' 39 So they took him and threw him out of the vineyard and killed him.
MT 21:40 "Therefore, when the owner of the vineyard comes, what will he do to those tenants?"
MT 21:41 "He will bring those wretches to a wretched end," they replied, "and he will rent the vineyard to other tenants, who will give him his share of the crop at harvest time."
While the Gentiles are grafted into the covenant relationship of the nation of Israel, as Paul explains in Romans 11:17-21; the true Israel in the spiritual sense is the Church. Thus they are the offspring having inherited the vineyard that is God’s kingdom from the Saints of old. This parable goes against the religious authorities of Jesus’ day, and illustrates the transference of management for God’s people that will occur from the Levite class to the Apostles. The time has come that God abandoned His people with the discrediting of their leaders and took up a new people in replacement of the physical state of Israel. As Jesus explained:
JN 4:23 Yet a time is coming and has now come when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth, for they are the kind of worshipers the Father seeks. 24 God is spirit, and his worshipers must worship in spirit and in truth."
This worshipping in spirit defines the Church as the spiritual Israel, and synonymous with the Church and the end-time allusion to the Harvest in the parable; the kind of believers in the same vein as David, a man after God’s own heart. This is the fourth Israel, and when looking at end-time prophecy, a differentiation must always be made which nation, the physical descendants of the man, Israel, or the spiritual nation of Israel which is the Church - is being described. Because between the two, they are as different as the Old Testament which cannot confer life is to the New with Christ as the source of Life.
< Message edited by Sinner-Saint -- 3/5/2008 3:55:18 PM >
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RE: 144,000 NOT JEWS - 3/5/2008 4:00:56 PM
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Sinner-Saint
Posts: 395
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quote:
ORIGINAL: bob97
It has to be my feeling that the 144,000 are the Firstfruits of the redemption of Israel and as such are Jews. If this event happens in concert with the Feasts, then it would occur conjunction to The Feast of Unleavened Bread.
The Feast of Unleavened Bread has already come and gone: That was the Passover meal in which Jesus revealed His body was Salvation and His blood was Redemption.
Next on the Festival list is Rosh ha-Shanah: the Festival of Trumpets.
• First to sound is the Last Trumpet.
• This is the Day of the Lord when we are Harvested.
• Next come many different Trumpet blasts for two days
• These signify the Day of the Lord to Israel: it is a Day of Woe!
Before Israel can be redeemed - it must be purified because it has not sought the Lord. Physical Israel of the Jews has not received God's saving Grace.
• After the two-day Day of the Lord - there are still the seven Days of Awe which equate to the second through seventh Trumpet Desolations God has decreed.
STILL - God has plans to save a remnant out of these stiff-necked people to whom He will reveal Himself as their Messiah King - the same Servant Messiah they have rejected for 2000 years.
• But that does not happen in the Festival calendar to the end-times until Yom Kippur - The Atonement or as one Jewish author termed it: The At One Ment.
< Message edited by Sinner-Saint -- 3/5/2008 4:08:27 PM >
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RE: 144,000 NOT JEWS - 3/5/2008 6:43:52 PM
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bob97
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Saint, what I'm saying the Firstfruits redemption (144,000) would be shadowed by an event similar to the Feast of Firstfruits when Christ was resurrected. How this would play out, I don't have a clue. I understand the Spring Feasts have already been fulfilled but that does not preclude future events falling on the same feast dates.
Bob
_____________________________
The LORD clears the road for me!
The LORD is my high ridge, my stronghold, my deliverer!
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RE: 144,000 NOT JEWS - 3/5/2008 8:03:01 PM
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Lapidoth
Posts: 2956
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The Spring and Fall Feasts and the Minor Feasts will all still be
playing roles during these last seven years.
The Spring Feasts have been fulfilled by Yeshua, but they
still will be rehearsed. The Fall Feasts are finally fulfilled as
described in the book of Revelation. But in there fulfillment, it still
takes the Spring Feast to get to the Fall Feasts.
The last Chanuka is the best one, the dedication of the Millennial Temple of Yeshua.
Even so, bring on Tishri 1.
Elul 1 begins the forty days of mourning.
It includes Tishri 1-10 which are the Ten Days of Awe,
bringing us up to Yom Kippur.
God my tickets all ready. Jesus paid for them. lol.
That's one show I am really waiting for.
Tishri 1 - Last Trump (Resurrection)
Tishri 1-10 Ten Days of Awe/wrath {Best to judge ourselves now}
Tishri 10 Day of Atonement (Yom Kippur)/white stone {got my wedding garments}
Tishri 15 - Marriage Feast
Tishri 22 - Armageddon {practicing mountint that white steed}
Kislew 25 - dedication of the Millennial Temple.
----don't mind my rambling. lol.
_____________________________
Why does He keep quoting Torah? Doesn't He know He's about to abolish it?
http://www.tedpearce.com/Videos/TheForgottenpeople.html
BARUCH HABA BASHEM YAHUAH
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RE: 144,000 NOT JEWS - 3/5/2008 8:39:05 PM
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bob97
Posts: 1666
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From: Kansas
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quote:
God my tickets all ready. Jesus paid for them. lol.
Carl, I bet you got first class tickets…I’m going to be pretty jealous because I suspect mine will be coach or tourist. 
Bob
_____________________________
The LORD clears the road for me!
The LORD is my high ridge, my stronghold, my deliverer!
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RE: 144,000 NOT JEWS - 3/15/2008 8:24:51 PM
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heavensheart
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Hello all First time really getting into the forums and doing some reading here.
Has it occured to anyone in Rev.7, the 144,000 being sealed here is part of the Spiritual Israel. These are men who come to be in Christ, right(?), meaning there is neither Jew nor Greek (Gentile) We are all one in Christ. The Two Olive Trees we see in Romans 11 isn't it, you have the natural olive tree (Israel) and the wild Olive tree (Gentile). A branch of the Wild olive tree is grafted into the Natural Olive Tree, Israel. We become one tree. "And to thy seed, which is Christ." Christ is the seed, we are of Christ, we are grafted in by the Blood of Christ through the Line of Judah and the Tribe of Levi, we are a royal priesthood unto our Lord.
So the 12,000 sealed from the tribes of Judah and Levi may very possibly be also of Gentiles among Jews. Is neither Jew nor Gentile, but is of Christ.
May you all have a Blessed Evening in the Lord!
heavensheart
_____________________________
"OOh that I had wings like a dove! for then would I fly away, and be at rest."
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RE: 144,000 NOT JEWS - 3/16/2008 12:25:15 PM
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Sinner-Saint
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Welcome "heavensheart" to the continuous, never ending debate!
Yes, that was my point as well...
The 144,000 as Firstfruits (a fact in Bible prophecy) must be of the same type as the Harvest.
As Jesus says He will gather the "Elect," then these too are "selected" by Christ.
"Elect" can include "Saints" from before the time of Christ who looked to God for their salvation. Job is an excellent example of this type of person. Daniel is another.
In the New Testament, "Elect" stands as a synonym for the Church as well.
So in one word, we can realize the unification of Gentile and Jew.
However, modern Jews and Israel are not part of the Elect. They do not worship Jesus as Lord. They will though. As Paul said, the full measure of the Gentiles will come in before Israel realizes her prize of eternal life.
< Message edited by Sinner-Saint -- 3/16/2008 12:31:27 PM >
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RE: 144,000 NOT JEWS - 3/16/2008 1:27:22 PM
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cybrjewls
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Greetings! Please notice the admonition of Paul the Apostle of Jesus Christ: I am not ashamed of the gospel, because it is the power of God for the salvation of everyone who believes: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile. And, Israel has experienced a hardening in part until the full number of the Gentiles has come in. Then, for about one thousand years, or less, there will be a coming in of Judah to The Lord Jesus as Messiah. We see concerning Israel: on the third day he will restore us. Where a day is like a thousand years as The Apostle wrote. According to the Prophets of God, Israel has a law and prophets order curse set on them to fulfill the times of Gentile nations in the mean time for about 2000 years or so. We see that their acceptance will be life from the dead! Also, Jesus said: I do not accept praise from men. Blessed are you when Blessed are you when men hate you, when they exclude you and insult you and reject your name as evil, because of the Son of Man.
What right do we have to judge anyone when they have had such a great problem set on them through prophetic unction and also the dragon exploits this as it is written: when last generation the dragon roared against Israel with the Nazis. Don't you perceive what is written then? He goes to make war against the Saints of God Most High culminating this in the appearance of the false prophet worldly leader who sets the mark of the beast trial upon the whole world and no one can buy or sell without it. For only 3 1/2 years plus 30-75 days will this trial last, yet some are saying that it won't happen. If Israel has undergone all that is written in the Prophets of God, how are the Gentiles going to escape these prophetic events? I tell you that all these things will happen as it is written. Being in denial will not save you, only Christ will. These will be resurrected in the first resurrection and have one thousand years to reign with Christ as priests.
I tell you that only New Jerusalem Israel will be saved from these events for 3 1/2 years as it is written. Then She will endure a 30-75 day trial for all that She has gone through during the times of the gentiles!
Who are We not to go to war for our Country and CountryPeople as the New Jerusalem that We are? We will stand firm in the faith, or we will not stand at all. Many things are written for the believer to understand that there is a time for war and many brave people have faced many situations and endured trials of many sorts in bravery for what they believe. It is a great honor to be among those who are willing to die for their faith. It is an encomium to live through those trials and prevail in the faith. It will be rewarded greatly along with the other disciples who were Martyred for their Testimony to Jesus. For it is written that the cowardly, and the unbelieving will be with shame on The Day of The Lord
quote:
ORIGINAL: Sinner-Saint
Welcome "heavensheart" to the continuous, never ending debate!
Yes, that was my point as well...
The 144,000 as Firstfruits (a fact in Bible prophecy) must be of the same type as the Harvest.
As Jesus says He will gather the "Elect," then these too are "selected" by Christ.
"Elect" can include "Saints" from before the time of Christ who looked to God for their salvation. Job is an excellent example of this type of person. Daniel is another.
In the New Testament, "Elect" stands as a synonym for the Church as well.
So in one word, we can realize the unification of Gentile and Jew.
However, modern Jews and Israel are not part of the Elect. They do not worship Jesus as Lord. They will though. As Paul said, the full measure of the Gentiles will come in before Israel realizes her prize of eternal life.
< Message edited by prophetica -- 3/16/2008 3:26:17 PM >
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RE: 144,000 NOT JEWS - 3/17/2008 1:38:25 PM
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heavensheart
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Thank you for the welcome and it's nice to meet you.
Thank many still has a way of putting that wall up between Jews and Gentiles, after a Jew and a Gentile are both from in Christ. There is a huge difference when neither are in Christ, but we are all one in Christ. For we are the Bride.
Right, the "Elect," are them "selected" by Christ. Whom the Father hath given.
Again, nice meeting you, Lord Bless!
heavensheart
_____________________________
"OOh that I had wings like a dove! for then would I fly away, and be at rest."
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RE: 144,000 NOT JEWS - 3/20/2008 3:41:03 AM
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FurGodWurLivin
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The thing that amazes me about this (now) eight page thread is that we are trying to explain how the Bible doesn't actually mean what it says when what it says is that the 144,000 sealed are "of the tribes of Israel". That means that they are descendents of the twelve sons of Israel, which means they have a Jewish heritage and are themselves Jewish. If this whole eight page thread is because we failed to define if the OP is talking about the 144,000 not being Religious Jews as opposed to hereditary Jews, I will laugh my backside off. The fact is that Revelation 7 flat out says that they are of the twelve tribes of Israel, and then lists how there will be 12,000 from EACH TRIBE. Now, God is really smart. I think he still knows who is biologically "of the tribes" and who is not. I also think further that God knows what tribe each person who is Jewish is actually from. Saying that Revelation 7 means anything other than 12,000 individuals are sealed from each of the twelve tribes of Israel is to say that the Bible cannot be trusted to say what it means.
Adam
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I am hyena, Jesus is my Mufasa...
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