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RE: 144,000 NOT JEWS - 1/23/2008 12:09:01 PM
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Lapidoth
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where's a "tulip" smiley when you need it? lol.
_____________________________
Why does He keep quoting Torah? Doesn't He know He's about to abolish it?
http://www.tedpearce.com/Videos/TheForgottenpeople.html
BARUCH HABA BASHEM YAHUAH
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RE: 144,000 NOT JEWS - 1/23/2008 3:19:36 PM
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cybrjewls
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LOL!!
quote:
ORIGINAL: stolar1962
Please, die thread, die.
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RE: 144,000 NOT JEWS - 1/23/2008 7:27:47 PM
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Johnny_
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Many people have misunderstood what "of Israel" actually means. In order to understand it, you have to be familiar with the Hebrew tradition and their geneology. Let me explain.
The Israelites, during the biblical times never had last names. So how did they identify their geneology? By using their fathers first name. (Example: David of Jesse).
In the Hebrew tradition, the word "of" in front of a person or country always meant "descendent"
Hence, the words "of Israel" would literally mean "Israels descendents". So who are the Israels descendents in the our post-modern generation? It could be any one of us. Over the past 3000 years, the Israelites have been exiled to different countries by force and some have also immigrated to Asia, Africa, and Europe.
< Message edited by Bibleman7 -- 1/24/2008 4:16:09 AM >
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RE: 144,000 NOT JEWS - 1/23/2008 8:07:33 PM
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.IC.
Posts: 168
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Hey All & Hi Peter,,
quote:
Matthew 19:11-12
11But he said to them, "Not everyone can receive this saying, but only those to whom it is given. 12For there are eunuchs who have been so from birth, and there are eunuchs who have been made eunuchs by men, and there are eunuchs who have made themselves eunuchs for the sake of the kingdom of heaven.
Let the one who is able to receive this receive it."
Luke 20:34-36
34Jesus replied, "The people of this age marry and are given in marriage. 35But those who are considered worthy of taking part in that age and in the resurrection from the dead will neither marry nor be given in marriage, 36and they can no longer die; for they are like the angels. They are God's children, since they are children of the resurrection.
and this : Isaiah 56
"The LORD will surely separate me from His people "
Nor let the eunuch say, "Behold, I am a dry tree."
4 For thus says the LORD,
"To the eunuchs who keep My sabbaths,
And choose what pleases Me,
And hold fast My covenant,
5 To them I will give in My house and within My walls a memorial,
And a name better than that of sons and daughters;
I will give them an everlasting name which will not be cut off.
Capture the Dream,
yours In Christ,,
God Bless
_____________________________
HOLY, HOLY, HOLY, Lord God Almighty-
which was, and is, and is to come.
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RE: 144,000 NOT JEWS - 1/23/2008 9:37:14 PM
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.IC.
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Hey All & Hi Sinner-Saint,,
quote:
3. They are virgin men. This also implies they are young, as most men aren't virgins very long.
- As being just men, they cannot be the remnant of Israel.
a. They are too few in number and
b. There are no women.
4. They go with Jesus wherever He goes.
I think if you open your mind up a little you will see that,, they don't have to be young.. I'm 33 and a bit and am a Virgin, never been with a woman or had that soul-bond as as mentioned, I have no need or am looking for such a thing in the future either . Why because i think of myself as one of those Eunuchs,, and therefore have dedicated that part of my life to Jesus. So they don't have to be young to called virgins if a bigger picture is taken into consideration.
Capture the Dream,
yours In Christ,,
God Bless
_____________________________
HOLY, HOLY, HOLY, Lord God Almighty-
which was, and is, and is to come.
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RE: 144,000 NOT JEWS - 1/24/2008 12:10:42 AM
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Sinner-Saint
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Good for you. You are partially qualified to be among the 144,000. The rest is up to God as He determines if your soul status merits this rare privilege of being "of" Israel as a Firstfruit of the Havest.
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RE: 144,000 NOT JEWS - 1/25/2008 10:56:20 PM
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Saved-To-Serve
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Sinner-Saint
quote:
ORIGINAL: Saved-To-Serve
Why this continued insistence on literalistic interpretation
Because "figurative" prophecy concerning Jesus had a literal fulfillment.
Literal fulfillment, but not literal interpretation. There's a difference. In symbolic prophecy a beast is not an animal, but a kingdom. When we correctly interpret the symbol we end up with a literal kingdom, not a literal animal.
quote:
quote:
ORIGINAL: Saved-To-Serve
...when we know that Revelation is so full of symbolism and the rest of the bible equips us to interpret the symbols?
Revelation, apokalupsis, means an uncovering!
Many of the symbols in this uncovering are explained!
And many can be understood only by references from other parts of the bible.
quote:
quote:
ORIGINAL: Saved-To-Serve
Why insist the 144,000 are literal Jews/Israelites when the NT interprets a true Jew/Israelite as someone who trusts Christ as his/her Saviour?
Well, that is MY point; that "Israel" can describe a spiritual body. In my eschatology, the 144,000 are of the same type as the Elect. "Elect," as used by the NT, includes the Church. NT authors use "Elect" for the Church.
So we agree that the 144,000 are first fruits of the entire church, and can be made up of both Jews and Gentiles, as the church is?
quote:
quote:
ORIGINAL: Saved-To-Serve
Why insist that a virgin is necessarily someone who hasn't had sex when in Matt. 25 a virgin is a Christian?
Yes, but the special feature, spiritually, of a virgin, is that they have not made a "soul bond" with a woman by having intercourse.
They will be pure Christians, both male and female (the five wise virgins), who will have separated and purified themselves from all false religion, false teachings, and false practices, including the end-time deception which will masquerade as the true Christianity.
quote:
quote:
ORIGINAL: Saved-To-Serve
Why insist that "women" has a literal meaning when a woman can also refer to a church or religious organisation?
The male/female roles between Christ and the Church have distinct end-time overtones.
A sequence-of-events analysis on the Rapture largely agrees with the first century Jewish marriage ritual which Jesus used so much in describing the relationship between Him and us.
Beautiful. Christ coming for His church, which is in some passages portrayed as a woman. We are also portrayed as virgins.
quote:
quote:
ORIGINAL: Saved-To-Serve
Why not try to understand what the bible means rather than continuing to speculate with literal interpretations of a highly symbolic book?
First of all, Revelations CAN be understood.
Second of all, because we want to understand what God has communicated to us. It is not simple, but it is understandable to a point.
Of course the Revelation can very much be understood. It is meant to be understood. That is why it is called Revelation.
My point is that the rest of the bible helps us to understand the symbolic language, e.g. the meaning of "virgins".
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RE: 144,000 NOT JEWS - 1/28/2008 9:08:39 AM
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stolar1962
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quote:
So we agree that the 144,000 are first fruits of the entire church, and can be made up of both Jews and Gentiles, as the church is?
Church does not equal Israel... The Church is not in view here at all. What is said are the specific tribes of Israel.. Unless the Church was organized like the nation Israel, then your conclusion is incorrect.
It says what it says.
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RE: 144,000 NOT JEWS - 1/31/2008 9:43:09 PM
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Saved-To-Serve
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quote:
ORIGINAL: stolar1962
It says what it says.
But it means what it means.
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RE: 144,000 NOT JEWS - 2/1/2008 9:21:12 AM
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stolar1962
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quote:
But it means what it means.
It means israel, not church.
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RE: 144,000 NOT JEWS - 2/1/2008 10:39:57 AM
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Sinner-Saint
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Four different meanings can be ascribed to ‘Israel’ in the Bible: the land, the person, the natural descendants of the person, and finally those who inherit the title or God’s chosen people in the spiritual aspect of the word. Furthermore, evidence in the Bible exists for the transition from the nation of Israel as being the physical descendants to being a nation of believers. Supporting this concept in the Old Testament which is reaffirmed in the New Testament, language can be found that effectively shifts the meaning of Israel to the Church when a spiritual aspect is indicated.
While the Gentiles are grafted into the covenant relationship of the nation of Israel, as Paul explains in Romans 11:17-21; the true Israel in the spiritual sense is the Church. Thus they are the offspring having inherited the vineyard that is God’s kingdom from the Saints of old. This parable goes against the religious authorities of Jesus’ day, and illustrates the transference of management for God’s people that will occur from the Levite class to the Apostles. The time has come that God abandoned His people with the discrediting of their leaders and took up a new people in replacement of the physical state of Israel. As Jesus explained:
JN 4:23 Yet a time is coming and has now come when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth, for they are the kind of worshipers the Father seeks. 24 God is spirit, and his worshipers must worship in spirit and in truth."
This worshipping in spirit defines the Church as the spiritual Israel, and synonymous with the Church and the end-time allusion to the Harvest in the parable; the kind of believers in the same vein as David, a man after God’s own heart. This is the fourth Israel, and when looking at end-time prophecy, a differentiation must always be made which nation, the physical descendants of the man, Israel, or the spiritual nation of Israel which is the Church - is being described. Because between the two, they are as different as the Old Testament which cannot confer life is to the New with Christ as the source of Life.
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RE: 144,000 NOT JEWS - 2/1/2008 11:08:45 AM
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Sinner-Saint
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Saved-to-Serve: There is much we seem to be in agreement so I do not want to seem like I am against you, however, one of your comments here is foreign to me, or doesn't represent what I was trying to get across, and yet another one - just one - I think is out right wrong.
I think we are in agreement on the main issue: that as Firstfruits, the 144,000 are of the same type as the Harvest. I think this prophetic fact is key to understanding the 144,000. However, at the same time, the 144,000 are separated from the main Harvest for a reason, and this makes them special. I agree that the 144,000 can be made up of both Jew and Gentile - as I allow the Elect to be of believers in Christ: both OT and NT.
quote:
ORIGINAL: Saved-To-Serve
Literal fulfillment, but not literal interpretation. There's a difference. In symbolic prophecy a beast is not an animal, but a kingdom. When we correctly interpret the symbol we end up with a literal kingdom, not a literal animal.
We don't really disagree here. The thing about figurative speech for me is that while it requires literal fulfillment and literal interpretation is not always how it will look - describing the anti-Christ as a beast actually reflects his "true" nature. When we look at world leaders like Javier Solana, he looks like a nice old man. However, he is a beast in God's eye because he wields power without acknowledging God. The man is anti-Christian.
So when I say: "Because "figurative" prophecy concerning Jesus had a literal fulfillment." I am referring to all those passages which portray Jesus as the seed of a woman, the root of Jesse, and being called the shoot. All these figurative references for Jesus were describing literal connections which can only be best described in their entirety as a seed, a root, and a shoot. Now Jesus is not a plant, but figurative prophecy can have a literal fulfillment. Moreover, looking at a literal interpretation with the figurative language shading the events described gives us the full flavor of what God wants to convey through His Word.
I am always in awe of how much meaning is packed into a single verse in the Bible. God truly is awesome.
But when you say this about the 144,000:
quote:
ORIGINAL: Saved-To-Serve
They will be pure Christians, both male and female (the five wise virgins), who will have separated and purified themselves from all false religion, false teachings, and false practices, including the end-time deception which will masquerade as the true Christianity.
I think you're going against a fact in Revelation concerning the 144,000.
They are only men.
That is, unless you want to include some women who haven't been with women (?) which gets into the whole thing about lust and lesbianism and all that rot.
The five wise virgins would be part of the Harvest. After all, they see Jesus coming and go out to meet him. That is what happens to those who are alive and are left upon the Earth when they see Jesus coming with all the holies (Saints) on the clouds.
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RE: 144,000 NOT JEWS - 2/2/2008 7:27:19 AM
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Doc65
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OK, at the risk of running sideways in this thread, I'd like to reply to the question about the four creatures around the throne:
"In the center, around the throne, were four living creatures, and they were covered with eyes, in front and in back. 7The first living creature was like a lion, the second was like an ox, the third had a face like a man, the fourth was like a flying eagle." Rev. 4:6-7
I haven't seen it yet, but has anyone considered that these creatures are the spiritual representation of the four Gospels? 
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RE: 144,000 NOT JEWS - 2/2/2008 5:51:21 PM
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ta_mosquito
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From: from MN, now in Ontario :D
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Doc65
OK, at the risk of running sideways in this thread, I'd like to reply to the question about the four creatures around the throne:
"In the center, around the throne, were four living creatures, and they were covered with eyes, in front and in back. 7The first living creature was like a lion, the second was like an ox, the third had a face like a man, the fourth was like a flying eagle." Rev. 4:6-7
I haven't seen it yet, but has anyone considered that these creatures are the spiritual representation of the four Gospels?
Maybe you should post this as a new thread.
_____________________________
Tricia
"There's a fine line between being open-minded and empty-headed." ~Michael Coren
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RE: 144,000 NOT JEWS - 2/3/2008 12:04:48 PM
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Saved-To-Serve
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Sinner-Saint
But when you say this about the 144,000:
quote:
ORIGINAL: Saved-To-Serve
They will be pure Christians, both male and female (the five wise virgins), who will have separated and purified themselves from all false religion, false teachings, and false practices, including the end-time deception which will masquerade as the true Christianity.
I think you're going against a fact in Revelation concerning the 144,000.
They are only men.
That is, unless you want to include some women who haven't been with women (?) which gets into the whole thing about lust and lesbianism and all that rot.
The five wise virgins would be part of the Harvest. After all, they see Jesus coming and go out to meet him. That is what happens to those who are alive and are left upon the Earth when they see Jesus coming with all the holies (Saints) on the clouds.
The bible says that the marriage bed is undefiled. the sexual relationship within marriage does not defile either men or women.
But the bible also uses the word "woman" to symbolise a church, and the word "harlot" to describe churches which have departed from God and gotten into illicit relationships - referred to as "adultery" and "fornication". The "wine of their fornication" symbolises the false doctrines which result from these illicit relationships.
Christians, both male and female, are symbolised as virgins, and Paul characterises pure christians as chaste virgins.
A virgin who has not defiled himself with women is, therefore, not a man who has not had sexual intercourse, but a Christian who has kept himself/herself free from, or has separated from false religion (including adulterous churches) and false doctrines. This will be more applicable as the end-time events unfold.
God has faithful followers in probably all churches and indeed many religions. But prophecy points to a soon-coming time when an attempt will be made to force everyone into a single combined form of worship. Churches which unite with this system (Babylon the Great) will be rightly described as harlots. Then the 144,000 will be those (male and female, Jew and Gentile) who either keep out of or come out of such churches and the system, and purify themselves through the pure gospel.
< Message edited by Saved-To-Serve -- 2/3/2008 12:24:13 PM >
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RE: 144,000 NOT JEWS - 2/3/2008 12:31:09 PM
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Sinner-Saint
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REV 14:1 Then I looked, and there before me was the Lamb, standing on Mount Zion, and with him 144,000 who had his name and his Father's name written on their foreheads. 2 And I heard a sound from heaven like the roar of rushing waters and like a loud peal of thunder. The sound I heard was like that of harpists playing their harps. 3 And they sang a new song before the throne and before the four living creatures and the elders. No one could learn the song except the 144,000 who had been redeemed from the earth. 4 These are those who did not defile themselves with women, for they kept themselves pure. They follow the Lamb wherever he goes. They were purchased from among men and offered as firstfruits to God and the Lamb. 5 No lie was found in their mouths; they are blameless.
I don't see a need to get into a whole realm of interpretative gynastics with male and female.
John's writing here is pretty concrete. They haven't slept with a woman.
I'd say plainly that these few in relation to the Harvest which will be a Great Multitude, are only men.
This does nothing to diminish all the references you have pointed out with the Church being the Bride of Christ or the whole concept of being a virgin spiritually, but none of those concepts are included in this passage which describes the 144,000.
Thus I think you are in error to say the 144,000 are men and women.
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RE: 144,000 NOT JEWS - 2/3/2008 12:37:18 PM
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Sinner-Saint
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On the other hand is this bit of scholarly work by the Expositor's NT Bible Commentary:
quote:
John's most difficult statement about this group is that they did "not defile themselves with women." Does he mean that this group consists only of men who had never married? Or should it be understood as referring to spiritual apostasy or cult prostitution? It is unlikely that "defiled" (molyno) refers merely to sexual intercourse since nowhere in Scripture does intercourse within marriage constitute sinful defilement (cf. Heb 13:4). On the other hand, the word "defiled" is found in the Letter of Aristeas (15.2) in connection with the promiscuous intercourse practiced by the Gentiles that defiled them but from which the Jews have been separated by the commandments of God (R. H. Charles, The Apocrypha and Pseudepigrapha of the Old Testament, 2 vols. [New York: Oxford, 1913], 2:109). Therefore the words can refer only to adultery or fornication; and this fact, in turn, establishes "pure" as the meaning of parthenoi ("virgins") in this context (NIV is paraphrastic here, but accurately so). In fact, parthenos can be used of formerly married persons in this figurative way and is so used of widows by Ignatius (Smyrna 13). The same masculine plural word (parthenous) is used in the LXX of Lamentations 2:10, which Ford suggests may be in parallel with "the elders of the daughter of Zion" (p. 242).
Kiddle thinks the reference is to actual celibacy, which alone could fit a man to be a sacrificial lamb for God (p. 268; also Glasson, p. 85). Caird connects the purity reference with holy-war regulations for soldiers who were ceremonially unclean because of sexual reasons (Deut 23:9-10; 1Sam 21:5; 2Sam 11:11). Each of these views founders because of the assumption that "uncleanness" (akathartos) is the equivalent of "defile" (molyno). Such an assumption not only fails on linguistic grounds but involves us in a scriptural contradiction, i.e., that the marriage bed is defiling and sinful. It is better, then, to relate the reference to purity to the defilement of idolatry. In fact, John seems to use molyno this way elsewhere of cult prostitution (3:4; cf. 2:14, 20, 22).
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RE: 144,000 NOT JEWS - 2/3/2008 12:41:03 PM
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Sinner-Saint
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I am going to conclude the 144,000 are only men because only men fight, and that is what I see in store for the 144,000. They are the army which advances with the Lord on the second half of the Day of the Lord. They are the ones who go out and fight with the Lord at Armageddon at the end of the one 'seven' as well.
Now you can call me sexist, but that in and of itself is a reflection of these latter times when feminism has tried to equate the sexes.
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RE: 144,000 NOT JEWS - 2/3/2008 1:25:42 PM
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Doc65
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OK, I might be perceived as being picky here but where do you see the 144,000 as being the ones who advance with the LORD on the second half of the Day of the LORD?
"11I saw heaven standing open and there before me was a white horse, whose rider is called Faithful and True. With justice he judges and makes war. 12His eyes are like blazing fire, and on his head are many crowns. He has a name written on him that no one knows but he himself. 13He is dressed in a robe dipped in blood, and his name is the Word of God. 14The armies of heaven were following him, riding on white horses and dressed in fine linen, white and clean. 15Out of his mouth comes a sharp sword with which to strike down the nations." Rev. 19:11-15
"Angels and saints follow, and are like Christ in their armour of purity and righteousness." Matthew Henry's Commentary
However, the army of heaven (the strateumata ta en ourano) which follows Christ in Rev. 19 is most likely these:
"9After this I looked and there before me was a great multitude that no one could count, from every nation, tribe, people and language, standing before the throne and in front of the Lamb. They were wearing white robes and were holding palm branches in their hands." Rev. 7:9
They are all the saints and martyrs from all nations who have perished as a result of their witness and not solely the 144,000. Finally,
"The exact identity of the heavenly armies is not clear. It could refer to the angelic host, the rewarded faithful followers of Jesus Christ or both. There is a significant Old Testament basis to argue that the heavenly armies are angelic beings. Zechariah 14:5 explicitly states angelic accompaniment at the Lord’s return for the salvation of Israel. Matthew 16:27 declares that an angelic accompaniment will be present at the Lord’s return to judge the world. There is no explicit New Testament text that indicates the saints will return with the Lord to punish the wicked. Therefore, one can argue that the heavenly armies that accompany the Lord at His return is angelic for sure and possibly human." revelationcommentary.org
I just don't see how the 144K are to be viewed as the army of heaven as well...
It seems that the armies of heaven are not the 144,000; to indicate otherwise is to read into the text.
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RE: 144,000 NOT JEWS - 2/3/2008 1:50:33 PM
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Sinner-Saint
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Well the rule of the 144,000 according to Revelation 14:4 is that they go wherever the Lamb goes.
As we understand the Lamb to be the Lord Jesus, then when the "LORD" tramples out His Wrath upon unrepentant Israel on the Day of the Lord in Joel 2, then it is the 144,000 who are with Him.
Interestingly enough, the 144,000 are called forth on the Day of the Lord as signified by the Sun/moon/star event in the parallel account with the book of Revelation which I call the Seal chronology in chapters 4 through 11. The Day of the Lord occurs with the breaking of the sixth Seal because the Sun/moon/star event foretold in the OT happens inconjunction at this time.
Now as the final battle of the one 'seven' where the anti-Christ and the False Prophet are captured alive at Armageddon, surely the 144,000 are also with our Lord then. Now His Host may include more than them, but the 144,000 are part of it because of Revelation 14:4.
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RE: 144,000 NOT JEWS - 2/3/2008 2:00:25 PM
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cybrjewls
Posts: 1479
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Greetings! Just a reference to Joel 2 and Revelation 14:4. One could also notice that the number of those that come out and pass through the trial of the mark of the beast period known as the tribulation period of 3 1/2 or 42 months or 1260 days plus 30-75 days are without number.quote:
ORIGINAL: Sinner-Saint
Well the rule of the 144,000 according to Revelation 14:4 is that they go wherever the Lamb goes.
As we understand the Lamb to be the Lord Jesus, then when the "LORD" tramples out His Wrath upon unrepentant Israel on the Day of the Lord in Joel 2, then it is the 144,000 who are with Him.
Interestingly enough, the 144,000 are called forth on the Day of the Lord as signified by the Sun/moon/star event in the parallel account with the book of Revelation which I call the Seal chronology in chapters 4 through 11. The Day of the Lord occurs with the breaking of the sixth Seal because the Sun/moon/star event foretold in the OT happens inconjunction at this time.
Now as the final battle of the one 'seven' where the anti-Christ and the False Prophet are captured alive at Armageddon, surely the 144,000 are also with our Lord then. Now His Host may include more than them, but the 144,000 are part of it because of Revelation 14:4.
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RE: 144,000 NOT JEWS - 2/3/2008 2:35:24 PM
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Sinner-Saint
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Well first of all, the "Tribulation Period" is not seven years long or even three and half years long.
Secondly, Joel's reference to without number reflects a manner of speaking from 2500 years ago which reflects hyperbole. All we can say about the Host with the Lord is that is great in number.
To say the Host with the Lord is the whole Church then reflects some sort of Post-Tribulation teaching where Jesus and Church battle the world.
With Gideon as an example, I don't think Jesus needs billions to take on the world. A few hundred thousand plus will suffice quite nicely.
Scripturally, according to Jesus, the "wheat" or Bride of Christ - the Church is safely in the "barn" of Heaven, the third Heaven of the Father's presence when the "tares" or wicked are burned in the field.
This interpretation leaves the Great Multitude in Heaven while Jesus and the 144,000 trample out the Wrath of God so evident on the Day of the Lord as it is in Joel. This second part of the Day of the Lord would coincide with the first Trumpet of the Scroll - which can only be opened after the seventh Seal is broken. Meanwhile, the Harvest has already been delivered up to Heaven with the sixth Seal opening.
< Message edited by Sinner-Saint -- 2/3/2008 2:42:04 PM >
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