RE: 144,000 NOT JEWS (Full Version)

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JimboFletch -> RE: 144,000 NOT JEWS (1/16/2008 5:40:48 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: carlkeigley

quote:

ORIGINAL: JimboFletch

quote:

ORIGINAL: carlkeigley

quote:

Actually this whole discussion is somewhat confusing to me.

Bob


NAW !!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Surely Not! ROFL.

Hear about the snail that was mugged by a turtle?

The police asked the snail to describe what happened.

The snail replied, "I can't. It all happened to fast."


LOL. THat's a good one!!!

Every thread needs some comic relief from time to time. What's scary is when nobody notices.
[:D]



Saved-To-Serve -> RE: 144,000 NOT JEWS (1/16/2008 9:04:36 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Saved-To-Serve

I know we are all agreed that scripture must interpret scripture.

for they are virgins.
These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth.
These were *redeemed from among men,
Therefore we must factor certain references into the mix when seeking to arrive at a proper understanding of what is meant by all the tribes of the children of Israel in Rev. 7:4.

The first thing is that the meaning of Israel is definitely expanded in the NT. E.g.
- Not all (literal) Israel are of Israel
- He is not a Jew who is only a Jew outwardly
- The true children of Abraham are those who have faith in Christ
- Gentiles and Jews who believe in Christ are members of the commonwealth of Israel
- Writing to the Christian believers, James addressed them as "the twelve tribes scattered abroad".

With such statements and more around, we cannot automatically assume, or insist, that Rev. 7:4 refers to literal Israel. In fact, the weight of NT evidence indicates that these tribes are the ones mentioned by James - all those, both Jews and Gentiles, who trust Christ as their Saviour - the commonwealth of Israel.



quote:

ORIGINAL: Conundrum

This is the only place in Scripture where, if it is referring to believers, a definite number from each tribe is listed. That makes it less allegorical/spiritual, in my opinion.

If the 144K are not natural descendants of Israel, then how does one know which tribe one is in?

Hey, can I be of the tribe of Judah? I wanna be in the same tribe Jesus was in. [8D]


When James addressed his fellow Christians as the "twelve tribes scattered abroad" there was no indication that we needed to know what tribe we are/were in. With reference to us Christians it cannot be a matter of a specific tribe.

Numbers in the bible are also symbolic. The number 144,000, and, indeed, the names of the various tribes, would now be symbolic of various characteristics applicable to this special group of people described as follows:

"an hundred forty and four thousand,
having his Father's name written in their foreheads.

3 And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth.

4 These are they which were not defiled with women;
for they are virgins.
These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth.
These were *redeemed from among men,
being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb.
5 And in their mouth was found no guile:
for they are without fault before the throne of God."
(Rev 14:1-5)



prophetlady -> RE: 144,000 NOT JEWS (1/16/2008 9:16:38 PM)

3 I will bless those who bless you,
and whoever curses you I will curse;
and all peoples on earth
will be blessed through you."

I stand by what I first thought anyhow, to me the four creatures are denominations, and the elders are those that serve them, and the 144000 are going to preach to them, (to build up the church)but remember not everyone hears the song, so some may not understand that. (grin )the sound from heaven is holy spirit, and the harps is because HARVESTERS ARE ANGELS, those 144000 will harvest, by telling denominations the truth, besides that ...could someone tell me where in the bible Jesus says DENOMINATION,

I follow the whole bible, to me a Christian who reads tarot cards has issues, some are unaware of it though...



baldwidow -> RE: 144,000 NOT JEWS (1/17/2008 8:12:46 AM)

I am not sure I follow your reasoning. How does this distinction dispel the notion that they are Jews?

"Jew" is a shortened word for Judeans, residents of Judea, the tribe of Judah. The other 11 tribes were dispersed and intermingled. We could all be descendents of them. The 12,000 could be anyone that only God knows the lineage of.



Sinner-Saint -> RE: 144,000 NOT JEWS (1/18/2008 4:19:56 PM)

Baldwidow's definition is correct.

Jew (n.)
c.1175 (in plural, giwis), from Anglo-Fr. iuw, from O.Fr. giu, from L. Judaeum (nom. Judaeus), from Gk. Ioudaios, from Aramaic jehudhai (Heb. y'hudi "Jew," from Y'hudah "Judah," lit. "celebrated," name of Jacob's fourth son and of the tribe descended from him. Replaced O.E. Iudeas "the Jews." Originally, "Hebrew of the kingdom of Judah."

http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?search=jew&searchmode=none

The 144,000 are from all the tribes of Israel.

However, the list John gives doesn't match any OT genealogy of the sons of Israel.

HOWEVER AGAIN - we have to ask: Aare we speaking of the man, the land, the nation, or the spiritual Israel of whom we are a part?

Paul says this in Romans 11:17-21

RO 11:17 If some of the branches have been broken off, and you, though a wild olive shoot, have been grafted in among the others and now share in the nourishing sap from the olive root, 18 do not boast over those branches. If you do, consider this: You do not support the root, but the root supports you. 19 You will say then, "Branches were broken off so that I could be grafted in." 20 Granted. But they were broken off because of unbelief, and you stand by faith. Do not be arrogant, but be afraid. 21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, he will not spare you either.

Here Paul says we are the type of nation God desires. A people who worship Him in spirit: hence we are the spiritual Israel, having been grafted into the tree of Jesus that came out of the root of Jesse.

In Galatians, Paul makes an allegorical statement which expresses a theological truth. In as much as Abraham had two sons, one by Hagar and the other by Sarah, they were destined for different ends. The Covenant relationship God had entered in with Abraham was only to be conferred upon Isaac. As Paul says:

GAL 4:24 These things may be taken figuratively, for the women represent two covenants. One covenant is from Mount Sinai and bears children who are to be slaves: This is Hagar. 25 Now Hagar stands for Mount Sinai in Arabia and corresponds to the present city of Jerusalem, because she is in slavery with her children. 26 But the Jerusalem that is above is free, and she is our mother.

Paul concludes with Scripture citing Genesis 21:10 that between Jew and Christian a similar passing of birthright has occurred and only Christians inherit the promise God has made through Jesus.

Between the physical Israel and the spiritual Israel, care must be used to discern within the context of the prophecy to make a firm determination which group is being singled out. Until the first is reunited with God, these are two separate peoples with two different roles to play in the end-times, so confusing one with the other muddies the picture and can lead erroneous conclusions.



cybrjewls -> RE: 144,000 NOT JEWS (1/18/2008 5:20:36 PM)

Greetings! ????

144,000 Sealed

the tribe of Judah
the tribe of Reuben
the tribe of Gad
the tribe of Asher
the tribe of Naphtali
the tribe of Manasseh
the tribe of Simeon
the tribe of Levi
the tribe of Issachar
the tribe of Zebulun
the tribe of Joseph
the tribe of Benjamin

These tribes aren't recognizable to us in Scripture as from Israel? Please show me which ones are the tribes that are written and prophesied concerning by Israel.



quote:

However, the list John gives doesn't match any OT genealogy of the sons of Israel.



Saved-To-Serve -> RE: 144,000 NOT JEWS (1/18/2008 5:48:57 PM)

quote:

These are they which were not defiled with women;
for they are virgins. Rev. 14:4


If the 144,000 are to be taken as a literal 144,000 Jews, exactly 12,000 from each tribe, then we must also agree that they will be all males, none of whom will ever have had sexual intercourse.



bob97 -> RE: 144,000 NOT JEWS (1/18/2008 7:56:04 PM)

It seems apparent that those tribes listed in Revelation 7 could not be based on land grant because this would have excluded Joseph and Levi. The list apparently not based on physical lineage because Manasseh is not a biological child of Jacob. This list is somewhat like the list of those blessed by Moses in Deuteronomy and that list is based on blessing and curses. As Simeon was left out of that list, Dan is left out of this list. Dan must have been excluded because of his idolatry. The bible does not give us reason to be dogmatic either way.

I continue to be amazed as to how far we will go to answer a question that has no logical conclusion in our current time.

Because God did not see it necessary to provide an answer…we can only guess. Personally, because God has decreed it to occur in this manner, I am quite willing to accept it at face value and go on.

Also, because man has not provided a logical answer in the past 1500 years, would lead me to believe we won't either.

Bob



Sinner-Saint -> RE: 144,000 NOT JEWS (1/19/2008 8:16:28 AM)

Not only is an answer not clear, we have to be open to a few things.

Some of the facts in prophecy concerning the 144,000:

1. They are of Israel. But because:

a. the listing is unlike any other, (FACT) and because
b. the 144,000 are sealed with the names of both Father and Son (FACT),

- it calls into question whether these can be called Jews in the modern sense of the word.

When we read "Israel" we have to look at whether the author means the man, the nation descended from him, the land, or as Paul uses it, the people who worship in the spirit.

2. They are Firstfruits. To put this into context, firstfruits refer to a harvest. To find the Harvest we find that Revelation 14 again depicts Jesus coming on the clouds to perform the Harvest. This image is just like Matthew 24:31.

Therefore: the 144,000 or of the same type as the Elect. I allow in my eschatology for OT Saints to be included in the Resurrection of the Dead in Christ.

3. They are virgin men. This also implies they are young, as most men aren't virgins very long.

- As being just men, they cannot be the remnant of Israel.
a. They are too few in number and
b. There are no women.

4. They go with Jesus wherever He goes.

-As Jesus tramps out His Wrath on the Day of the Lord with an Army, we can be sure the 144,000 are with Jesus - perhaps making up that Army.
-As Jesus goes out with an Army to Armageddon, we can be sure the 144,000 are with Jesus at that time too.

This means the 144,000, as young men, may be there to do God's Will, which in the second half of the one 'seven' is to deliver the desolations God the Father has decreed upon the Earth.
______________________________________________

Now as to the identity of the 144,000 - I ask you to read Isaiah 5:26-30; 13:2-6; and ask yourself where the Army Joel depicts in Joel 2:1-11 comes from.

I think the passages in Isaiah have a direct bearing on the 144,000 depicted in Rev 14 (which is part of the parallel account of Rev chapters 13 through 16 inclusive which covers the time period of just the one 'seven').



bob97 -> RE: 144,000 NOT JEWS (1/19/2008 11:03:04 AM)

Hi Saint,

I think you are right on target with your thoughts.

Bob



Lapidoth -> RE: 144,000 NOT JEWS (1/19/2008 7:21:22 PM)

quote:

4. They go with Jesus wherever He goes.

-As Jesus tramps out His Wrath on the Day of the Lord with an Army, we can be sure the 144,000 are with Jesus - perhaps making up that Army.
-As Jesus goes out with an Army to Armageddon, we can be sure the 144,000 are with Jesus at that time too.


Your speculation makes a lot of sense.
Virgins because they are young.
Very possible as the armies of Israel in the OT are numbered
beginning at the age of 20. Very possible these are 20 years old.

God isn't limited by our imaginations and the limits we try to put on His wisdom.
This is another we will probably figure out "as it happens." lol.



Saved-To-Serve -> RE: 144,000 NOT JEWS (1/21/2008 3:05:47 PM)

quote:

They are virgin men. This also implies they are young, as most men aren't virgins very long.

- As being just men, they cannot be the remnant of Israel.
a. They are too few in number and
b. There are no women.


Why this continued insistence on literalistic interpretation when we know that Revelation is so full of symbolism and the rest of the bible equips us to interpret the symbols?

Why insist the 144,000 are literal Jews/Israelites when the NT interprets a true Jew/Israelite as someone who trusts Christ as his/her Saviour?

Why insist that a virgin is necessarily someone who hasn't had sex when in Matt. 25 a virgin is a Christian?

Why insist that "women" has a literal meaning when a woman can also refer to a church or religious organisation?

Why not try to understand what the bible means rather than continuing to speculate with literal interpretations of a highly symbolic book?



JimboFletch -> RE: 144,000 NOT JEWS (1/21/2008 3:22:05 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: bob97

It seems apparent that those tribes listed in Revelation 7 could not be based on land grant because this would have excluded Joseph and Levi....

I'm not going to do all the research for you but Levi did not get a portion of land.

And Jacob himself said to Joseph, "Now your two sons, who were born to you in the land of Egypt before I came to you in Egypt, are mine; Ephraim and Manasseh shall be mine, as Reuben and Simeon are."

See Genesis 48:5. Jacob made them two "half-tribes" for Joseph. So, no, Levi and Jacob were not left out. And the other seeming "problems" are easily resolved with some study - of the OT, not Darby.



Sinner-Saint -> RE: 144,000 NOT JEWS (1/21/2008 10:33:31 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Saved-To-Serve
Why this continued insistence on literalistic interpretation

Because "figurative" prophecy concerning Jesus had a literal fulfillment.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Saved-To-Serve
...when we know that Revelation is so full of symbolism and the rest of the bible equips us to interpret the symbols?

Revelation, apokalupsis, means an uncovering!

Many of the symbols in this uncovering are explained!

Only in the Uncovering are scattered OT prophecies concerning the end-times put in sequence!

quote:

ORIGINAL: Saved-To-Serve
Why insist the 144,000 are literal Jews/Israelites when the NT interprets a true Jew/Israelite as someone who trusts Christ as his/her Saviour?

Well, that is MY point; that "Israel" can describe a spiritual body. In my eschatology, the 144,000 are of the same type as the Elect. "Elect," as used by the NT, includes the Church. NT authors use "Elect" for the Church.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Saved-To-Serve
Why insist that a virgin is necessarily someone who hasn't had sex when in Matt. 25 a virgin is a Christian?

Yes, but the special feature, spiritually, of a virgin, is that they have not made a "soul bond" with a woman by having intercourse.

I think that is significant.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Saved-To-Serve
Why insist that "women" has a literal meaning when a woman can also refer to a church or religious organisation?

The male/female roles between Christ and the Church have distinct end-time overtones.

A sequence-of-events analysis on the Rapture largely agrees with the first century Jewish marriage ritual which Jesus used so much in describing the relationship between Him and us.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Saved-To-Serve
Why not try to understand what the bible means rather than continuing to speculate with literal interpretations of a highly symbolic book?

First of all, Revelations CAN be understood.

Second of all, because we want to understand what God has communicated to us. It is not simple, but it is understandable to a point.



VCO -> RE: 144,000 NOT JEWS (1/21/2008 11:39:02 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: prophetlady

The 144,000 are not Jews, the first verse EXPOSES THIS, "his name and his fathers name." Clearly TWO,

they are the lineage of the twelve tribes, ancestors,


LOL, well we know what you are not.

U&U

Rev 7:4-12 (KJV)
4 And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel.
5 Of the tribe of Juda were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Reuben were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Gad were sealed twelve thousand.
6 Of the tribe of Aser were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Nepthalim were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Manasses were sealed twelve thousand.
7 Of the tribe of Simeon were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Levi were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Issachar were sealed twelve thousand.
8 Of the tribe of Zabulon were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Joseph were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Benjamin were sealed twelve thousand.
9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;
10 And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb.
11 And all the angels stood round about the throne, and about the elders and the four beasts, and fell before the throne on their faces, and worshipped God,
12 Saying, Amen: Blessing, and glory, and wisdom, and thanksgiving, and honour, and power, and might, be unto our God for ever and ever. Amen.



Johnny_ -> RE: 144,000 NOT JEWS (1/22/2008 5:47:21 AM)

Who are the 144,000 mentioned in Revelations?

The bible says that only 12,000 are from the tribe of Judah and the others are from the remaining tribes of Israel. "From the tribe of Judah, twelve thousand were sealed" (Revelations 7:5)

Among Israel's 12 sons was Judah. From his name, his descendants became known as Jews. Judah's 11 brothers were not Jews. They were all Israelites, but only Judah's children and descendants, right to this day, are actually qualified to be called Jews. (Genesis Chapter 49)

The word "Jew" in Hebrew is ("Yehudi") is derived from the name Judah who was one of Jacob's twelve sons. Judah was the ancestor of one of the tribes of Israel, which was named after him.



stolar1962 -> RE: 144,000 NOT JEWS (1/22/2008 9:46:50 AM)

quote:

Among Israel's 12 sons was Judah. From his name, his descendants became known as Jews. Judah's 11 brothers were not Jews. They were all Israelites, but only Judah's children and descendants, right to this day, are actually qualified to be called Jews. (Genesis Chapter 49)


Then you are saying that Judah should be left off this list?

I am totally surprised this thread is still alive. It has been established beyond the shadow of a doubt as to who these tribes are, by normal means of interpretation. Ie read it and take it at face value. there is no indication from the context that this passage is to be looked at any other way.

To findout more about the creatures that surround the throne, perhaps examine Ez 1 and Isa 6 would help clear up the ?s. Rule # 1, well maybe #2 after context, is to let Scripture interpret Scripture. When you do that, it becomes obvious that these creatures do not represent Churches at all. To make such a claim is to continually ignore basic Bible study techniques.

As for the elders, Come on... We already have 2 strikes here. Let this thread rest in peace.



Lapidoth -> RE: 144,000 NOT JEWS (1/22/2008 2:27:17 PM)

quote:

quote:

quote:

Among Israel's 12 sons was Judah. From his name, his descendants became known as Jews. Judah's 11 brothers were not Jews. They were all Israelites, but only Judah's children and descendants, right to this day, are actually qualified to be called Jews. (Genesis Chapter 49)
Then you are saying that Judah should be left off this list?


Naw, wasn't saying that at all.

And you're right, it should die in peace. lol.
Actually, for my money I wouldn't bring it up.

I find it to be just what it says. 144,000 of Israel.
Us foolish westerners distort what it says to qualify our other many doctrines.



Sinner-Saint -> RE: 144,000 NOT JEWS (1/22/2008 3:46:48 PM)

I have no problem with the 144,000 being of Israel, the question is then, which Israel?

Again, no doctrine, just facts:

- this listing of tribes is UNLIKE ANY OTHER in the Bible.
- the 144,000 are sealed with the names (plural) of the Father and the Son.

So, I think the original post has some merit; they cannot be "Jews" in the modern sense of the word (unlike its etymology) unless we confine ourselves to Messianic Jews.

Now I have no problem with Hebrews being in the mix; indeed, I would say they will be part of the 144,000!



Sinner-Saint -> RE: 144,000 NOT JEWS (1/22/2008 4:29:33 PM)

Working upwards from the Bible, these conclusions are rightfully established: the 144,000 are not necessarily Jewish; they are the Firstfruits of the Harvest; they follow Christ wherever He goes; and they are all men and quite possibly and ostensibly young men at that. These facts point to the denotation of the Spiritual Israel sought by God where people worship in spirit rather than just limiting these young men to be only from the physical nation of Israel.

- REV 14:1 Then I looked, and there before me was the Lamb, standing on Mount Zion, and with him 144,000 who had his name and his Father's name written on their foreheads.

This image of Jesus standing on a hill like the Mount of Olives paints an illustration of Him with many. This image is not the only time Jesus can be said to be on a hilltop with many people. In Isaiah, the Lord musters an army on a hilltop. This is the same image portrayed in Revelation 14. Thus, Isaiah 13 acts as a multiple account to the same event:

ISA 13:2 Raise a banner on a bare hilltop,
shout to them;
beckon to them
to enter the gates of the nobles.

ISA 13:3 I have commanded my holy ones;
I have summoned my warriors to carry out my wrath--
those who rejoice in my triumph.

ISA 13:4 Listen, a noise on the mountains,
like that of a great multitude!
Listen, an uproar among the kingdoms,
like nations massing together!
The LORD Almighty is mustering
an army for war.

ISA 13:5 They come from faraway lands,
from the ends of the heavens--
the LORD and the weapons of his wrath--
to destroy the whole country.

ISA 13:6 Wail, for the day of the LORD is near;
it will come like destruction from the Almighty.
Isaiah 13 is married by Isaiah’s parallel account in 5:26.

ISA 5:26 He lifts up a banner for the distant nations,
he whistles for those at the ends of the earth.
Here they come,
swiftly and speedily!

In Isaiah 13, the opening of the banner raised on the bare hilltop fits a very literal sense to the Mount of Olives. It is upon that summit that Jesus returns as prophesized in Zechariah 14:4 and Acts 1:11. Jesus gave the key event of the Sun/moon/star sign in the Olivet Discourse to identify His coming on the clouds with the Day of the Lord. That same event is evidenced in the Seal chronology of Revelation 6. Again, Isaiah 13 agrees with Zechariah 14:4 and Revelation 14:1. Indeed, the final fact given in this passage and repeated later in Isaiah chapter 13 proclaims the Day of the Lord. The conclusion drawn here then is that all describe the same event which happens on the Day of the Lord.

Furthermore, these warriors being raised in Isaiah 13 are for God’s army. They along with the Lord will carry out God’s Wrath. For Israel, the Day of the Lord expresses calamities which befall Israel. One of these calamities is battle. This agrees with another depiction of an army in Joel. The Lord, who is Jesus, tramples out His Wrath on Israel on the Day of the Lord. Revelation 14:4 dictates that the 144,000 stay alongside the Lamb. On the Day of the Lord, there is also an army which acts as God’s Wrath. Therefore, these 144,000 being summoned are warriors; they are God’s Army.



Johnny_ -> RE: 144,000 NOT JEWS (1/22/2008 5:06:22 PM)

quote:

original: stolar1962

Then you are saying that Judah should be left off this list?


Hi Stolar,

Of the 144,000, only 12,000 are from the tribe of Judah (Jews). The remaining people are the rest of Israel (non-Jews).

The scripture says the remaining non-Jews are "of Israel". So what does "of Israel" actually mean? In Hebrew tradition, they always used the word "of" to refer to their "descendents". So it would mean "Israel's descendents".

So why did the people of Israel use "of" after their names? Because they never had last names. They only used their first names and their descendents. (ie: David of Jesse)



Sinner-Saint -> RE: 144,000 NOT JEWS (1/22/2008 6:37:19 PM)

The difference between the tribes does not have to be black and white for me. While the Church is synonymous with Elect in the NT, I think the Elect can include more than the Church. I think there are OT Saints who had a hope in Christ before He came. I think OT Saints can be raised with the Dead in Christ in the Harvest.

An interesting fact about the 144,000, is, being Firstfruits, is that they are of the same type as the Harvest. And along with being the same type, the Firstfruits and the Harvesthave a distinct duality to their origin. They both come from faraway lands and the end of the heavens. The first would indicate living individuals, while the second would necessitate a mustering from the spiritual realm beyond this life. The language of Isaiah is very similar to what Jesus uses for the Elect in the Olivet Discourse:

ISA 13:5 They come from faraway lands,
from the ends of the heavens--

MT 24:31 And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other.

Recalling that Elect is used throughout the New Testament as a synonym for the Church, this gathering of the Elect reflects the Church. The imagery preceding this particular verse is replicated in Revelation 14 with the Harvest as Jesus appears on the clouds just as Jesus said He would in Matthew 24:30. Therefore, while this army being mustered in Isaiah 13 has the same kind of origins as the Elect, the actual gathering here is for the Harvest, not the mustering upon the barren hilltop.

However, since the 144,000 are Firstfruits to the Harvest, and that indicates of a like kind, then as Holy Ones as Isaiah proclaims in 13:3, the army being mustered is out of the book of Life. The army being mustered contains those Holy Ones who are alive at the time which necessitates that they believe in Christ first (and thus precludes this segment from being Jewish in the strictest sense) and adds to them those from Paradise, the first realm of Heaven from where the dead in Christ are resurrected. So not only are the Firstfruits like the Elect being of the same kind, they are called forth in the same manner.

This actually can unite Jew and Gentile. The first Resurrection raises the dead in Christ as Paul taught in 1st Corinthians. The dead come from the first Heaven, Paradise. This would allow then for Old Testament Saints to be raised up as well as New Testament Saints. Each group would be selected by God as being worthy to be included in the Book of Life at that moment when the Rapture commences. However, for the living, those that come from faraway lands as with the mustered army or the four corners of the earth for the Elect, the only qualification to be counted Holy during the Church Age would be to be a believer in Christ Jesus first. So in both groups, the 144,000 and the Elect, Jesus would unite Jew and Gentile in accordance with Isaiah 49:6. In addition, the rescue of God’s people would also start with Israel of old and proceed to the Gentile Church in accordance with Romans 2:10.



PeterD -> RE: 144,000 NOT JEWS (1/22/2008 11:51:25 PM)

Hello prophetlady

http://www.m-w.com/dictionary/sects is this related to "denomination"

but not being found in the Bible.



quote:

ORIGINAL: prophetlady said, "I stand firm, I believe they will surround the Church of Jesus, because it says the four creatures will worship the LAMB, so if someone does not believe in Christ, how would they surround the four creatures who do?"


Please share this again..."the four creatures will worship the LAMB, so if someone does not believe in Christ, how would they surround the four creatures who do?"

"He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. To the one who conquers I will grant to eat of the tree of life, which is in the paradise of God."

Peter Daniel



PeterD -> RE: 144,000 NOT JEWS (1/23/2008 1:03:53 AM)

Revelation 14
The Lamb and the 144,000
1Then I looked, and behold, on Mount Zion stood the Lamb, and with him 144,000 who had his name and his Father’s name written on their foreheads. 2And I heard a voice from heaven like the roar of many waters and like the sound of loud thunder. The voice I heard was like the sound of harpists playing on their harps, 3and they were singing a new song before the throne and before the four living creatures and before the elders. No one could learn that song except the 144,000 who had been redeemed from the earth. 4It is these who have not defiled themselves with women, for they are virgins. It is these who follow the Lamb wherever he goes. These have been redeemed from mankind as firstfruits for God and the Lamb, 5and in their mouth no lie was found, for they are blameless. (ESV)

Is the Apostle Peter one of the 144,000

Matthew 19:11-12
11But he said to them, "Not everyone can receive this saying, but only those to whom it is given. 12For there are eunuchs who have been so from birth, and there are eunuchs who have been made eunuchs by men, and there are eunuchs who have made themselves eunuchs for the sake of the kingdom of heaven.
Let the one who is able to receive this receive it."

Luke 20:34-36

34Jesus replied, "The people of this age marry and are given in marriage. 35But those who are considered worthy of taking part in that age and in the resurrection from the dead will neither marry nor be given in marriage, 36and they can no longer die; for they are like the angels. They are God's children, since they are children of the resurrection.


Are all the 144,000 virgin men, who have made themselves eunuchs for the sake of the kingdom of heaven?

PeterD



stolar1962 -> RE: 144,000 NOT JEWS (1/23/2008 11:06:35 AM)

Please, die thread, die.

Where do Jews come from except from the tribes of Israel? Sorry you can't differentiate between them. The Bible doesn't indicate you can. Just take it at face value. As for this list being different. Look in the OT. There are several lists of the Children of Israel, they are not all the same... You need to ask yourself, Why?



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