RE: 144,000 NOT JEWS

RE: 144,000 NOT JEWS (Full Version)

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cybrjewls -> RE: 144,000 NOT JEWS (1/16/2008 12:12:45 PM)
Greetings upNORTder! I believe that Isaiah spoke to us concerning the levitical priesthood that And I will select some of them also to be priests and Levites," says the LORD. This shows that some of the elders who were chosen from across the generations could be also of Gentile descent; although I expect that a great many of them were the Apostles, Elijah, Moses, Abraham, Isaac, Jacob (18 in all, with one apostle chosen by lot and Paul). We see, also, that there are two witnesses or olive branches that stand before the throne. This makes a total of 26 throned elders with standing before the Lord of Hosts. quote: ORIGINAL: upNORTder The elders are the twelve jewish patriarchs and the twelve disciples (also jewish).

bob97 -> RE: 144,000 NOT JEWS (1/16/2008 12:28:04 PM)
I have posted this view before in another discussion on the origin of the 24 elders but it seems appropriate to repeat it here. Speaking of the 24 Elders in Rev 4, these elders are more than likely angelic beings. This conclusion is based on a questionable translation of Revelation 5:9-10 in the King James Version of the Bible. King James translation of Revelation 5:9-10: And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation; And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth. New American Standard translation: And they sang a new song, saying, "Worthy art Thou to take the book, and to break its seals; for Thou wast slain, and didst purchase for God with Thy blood men from every tribe and tongue and people and nation. "And Thou hast made them to be a kingdom and priests to our God; and they will reign upon the earth". The difference is easily recognized: KJV = "us, us and we" vs. NASB = "men, them, and they" Commentary from Gary Vaterlaus - Instructor, Biblical Research & Education, Sola Scriptura is as follows; The central issue concerns the Greek manuscripts used as the basis for our English translation. In terms of the sheer number of manuscripts, a reading with us is favored in verse 9. This would support the King James translation. However, following this same reasoning results in a contradiction with the last part of verse 10. The verb "they shall reign" is clearly third person plural. In other words, "they shall reign" and not "we shall reign," which is a first person plural pronoun. Now a good English student knows that subjective and objective pronouns must agree in number, i.e., singular with singular and plural with plural. Since we believe that John did not make mistakes when recording his prophecy and that Scripture does not contain contradictions, we support a harmony of the text. There is very little debate that verse 10 should read "they," and not "we." A guiding principle of biblical interpretation is to interpret the difficult in light of the clear. Reasoning back to the first part of verse 10, we conclude that the phrase "You have made us" should read "You have made them." This would necessitate that verse 9 should read "You have redeemed them." This is the only reading of verses 9-10 that removes any possible contradiction, which is reflected in the New American Standard translation. This interpretation also answers the question concerning the identity of the elders. At least we are able to say that they are heavenly beings and in no way can be identified with the "church." Bob

hymnHIM -> RE: 144,000 NOT JEWS (1/16/2008 12:34:03 PM)
I simply cannot understand how this is even debatable. Scrpture clearly states that these are the children of Israel. If you continue reading John then distinguishes between Isreal and all nations. John didnt mess up or have a brain-fog, he clearly states what was directly revealed to him. We cannot have an idea and try to fit scripture to it. Scripture determines our understanding.

cybrjewls -> RE: 144,000 NOT JEWS (1/16/2008 12:41:45 PM)
Greetings bob97! Please notice the word in the greek for elders is presbyteros and also the word for angel is aggelos in the greek instance in revelation. These are two different words in the greek which have two different meanings ascribed to them and they are talking, therefore, about different things.

bob97 -> RE: 144,000 NOT JEWS (1/16/2008 1:02:25 PM)
quote: Greetings bob97! Please notice the word in the greek for elders is presbyteros and also the word for angel is aggelos in the greek instance in revelation. These are two different words in the greek which have two different meanings ascribed to them and they are talking, therefore, about different things. G4245 πρεσβύτερος presbuteros pres-boo'-ter-os Comparative of πρέσβυς presbus (elderly); older; as noun, a senior; specifically an Israelite Sanhedrist (also figuratively, member of the celestial council) or Christian “presbyter”: - elder (-est), old. Bob

cybrjewls -> RE: 144,000 NOT JEWS (1/16/2008 1:20:25 PM)
Also noteworthy is the greek word 'zoon' which is translated 'creatures' and the greek word 'therion', which is translated 'beast'. quote: ORIGINAL: bob97 quote: Greetings bob97! Please notice the word in the greek for elders is presbyteros and also the word for angel is aggelos in the greek instance in revelation. These are two different words in the greek which have two different meanings ascribed to them and they are talking, therefore, about different things. G4245 πρεσβύτερος presbuteros pres-boo'-ter-os Comparative of πρέσβυς presbus (elderly); older; as noun, a senior; specifically an Israelite Sanhedrist (also figuratively, member of the celestial council) or Christian “presbyter”: - elder (-est), old. Bob

prophetlady -> RE: 144,000 NOT JEWS (1/16/2008 1:24:33 PM)
Bob. do the scriptures imply that Jesus says at the end of the age that harvesters are angels? that would imply PEOPLE right. the term elder The elders of Israel will listen to you. Then you and the elders are to go to the king of Egypt and say to him, 'The LORD, the God of the Hebrews, has met with us. Let us take a three-day journey into the desert to offer sacrifices to the LORD our God.' Then Moses summoned all the elders of Israel and said to them, "Go at once and select the animals for your families and slaughter the Passover lamb. I will stand there before you by the rock at Horeb. Strike the rock, and water will come out of it for the people to drink." So Moses did this in the sight of the elders of Israel. Then Jethro, Moses' father-in-law, brought a burnt offering and other sacrifices to God, and Aaron came with all the elders of Israel to eat bread with Moses' father-in-law in the presence of God. are elders people in these statements? YES

prophetlady -> RE: 144,000 NOT JEWS (1/16/2008 1:27:42 PM)
How do you know that God does not include Gentiles as HIS children of ISRAEL, could ISRAEL be more SPIRITUAL, then a stamp? Instead of FLESH? I follow the Laws too, but I do not preach about the food, because CHRIST says not too, so would that not make me ISRAEL?

cybrjewls -> RE: 144,000 NOT JEWS (1/16/2008 1:43:15 PM)
Greetings prophetlady! It is understood that one must be born of the Spirit and of water to enter the Kingdom of God; and one must also do the the will of The Father who is in Heaven. One must receive the Kingdom of God as a little child to enter. Therefore, the Gentile believers are included as the Apostle instructs as Israel; however one must notice that Paul instructs believers who are Gentile not to be arrogant about it because they, too, could be cut off from the olive tree. So we understand, then, that God can graft these who are of Israeli descent back into the olive tree when He so chooses as it is written about the 144,000 of the tribes of Israel. We see, here, that so many come out of the tribulation period that no one could even count them and they pass the test of the mark of the beast and war on the saints persecution that the false worldly prophet leader sets up in those days. As the Apostle state: "We must go through many hardships to enter the kingdom of God," they said. quote: ORIGINAL: prophetlady How do you know that God does not include Gentiles as HIS children of ISRAEL, could ISRAEL be more SPIRITUAL, then a stamp? Instead of FLESH? I follow the Laws too, but I do not preach about the food, because CHRIST says not too, so would that not make me ISRAEL?

Lapidoth -> RE: 144,000 NOT JEWS (1/16/2008 1:44:12 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: hymnHIM I simply cannot understand how this is even debatable. Scrpture clearly states that these are the children of Israel. If you continue reading John then distinguishes between Isreal and all nations. John didnt mess up or have a brain-fog, he clearly states what was directly revealed to him. We cannot have an idea and try to fit scripture to it. Scripture determines our understanding. We just have to face it Brother Berean. We can't argue against isegesis. lol.

Sinner-Saint -> RE: 144,000 NOT JEWS (1/16/2008 1:50:25 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Sinner-Saint Therefore: they are believers in Christ and thus must be part of the Church. Now they can be of Hebrew origin - but they are not Jewish - if we define Jews as those who reject Christ and hold onto only the OT sacrificial system for their salvation. quote: ORIGINAL: JimboFletch I have only heard one group distinguish between Hebrew and Jew - and that is the KKK. Other than those (who do so for warped reasons), I can't imagine why anyone would feel a need to redefine the terms - unless you've been reading too much of LaHaye or Lindsay. Hi there Buddy! Gee I can't think of such a back-handed maneuver to call someone anti-Semitic as you have done with your matching my post defining a term to the Klu Klux Klan! Let me say outright: I find your insinuation highly offensive! I will now standby for your apology... But this being Crosswalk, a Christian message board, somehow I think no apology will be forthcoming.

bob97 -> RE: 144,000 NOT JEWS (1/16/2008 1:51:13 PM)
Elder translates in older…what is so difficult to understand about that? It would also have connotations of elders in thinking or wiser such as a person valued for his or her wisdom who accordingly holds a particular position of responsibility. Elder could apply to Heavenly Beings, Earthly Beings or cats. Bob

Lapidoth -> RE: 144,000 NOT JEWS (1/16/2008 1:54:17 PM)
quote: or cats. All my cats have the same name ---- Kat. But they only seem to respond to Kitty. lol. Presbo might be a new name to use.

cybrjewls -> RE: 144,000 NOT JEWS (1/16/2008 1:56:13 PM)
LOL!! I guess they will be sitting upon thrones before the Almighty, too! quote: ORIGINAL: carlkeigley quote: or cats. All my cats have the same name ---- Kat. But they only seem to respond to Kitty. lol. Presbo might be a new name to use.

Sinner-Saint -> RE: 144,000 NOT JEWS (1/16/2008 1:57:08 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: bob97 Elder could apply to Heavenly Beings, Earthly Beings or cats. I go out for the day, get insulted and return to find now we're talking about the Elders? Do you want to know who the Elders are? Read Zechariah 3:8 and tell me who the captives were that Jesus led in His train when He ascended on high when He returned to His Father after meeting Mary in the Garden.

cybrjewls -> RE: 144,000 NOT JEWS (1/16/2008 1:59:46 PM)
Greetings sinner-saint! Welcome back; sorry you got insulted. Here is the Scripture that you referenced: regarding how Joshua and his associates seated before him, who are men symbolic of things to come. quote: ORIGINAL: Sinner-Saint quote: ORIGINAL: bob97 Elder could apply to Heavenly Beings, Earthly Beings or cats. I go out for the day, get insulted and return to find now we're talking about the Elders? Do you want to know who the Elders are? Read Zechariah 3:8 and tell me who the captives were that Jesus led in His train when He ascended on high when He returned to His Father after meeting Mary in the Garden.

bob97 -> RE: 144,000 NOT JEWS (1/16/2008 2:04:32 PM)
Gee Saint...I didn't mean to insult you, I'll never call you elder again.[:)] And I don't know for the life of me how we got around to saints in this discussion. Actually this whole discussion is somewhat confusing to me.[8\|] Bob

JimboFletch -> RE: 144,000 NOT JEWS (1/16/2008 2:08:06 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Sinner-Saint quote: ORIGINAL: Sinner-Saint Therefore: they are believers in Christ and thus must be part of the Church. Now they can be of Hebrew origin - but they are not Jewish - if we define Jews as those who reject Christ and hold onto only the OT sacrificial system for their salvation. quote: ORIGINAL: JimboFletch I have only heard one group distinguish between Hebrew and Jew - and that is the KKK. Other than those (who do so for warped reasons), I can't imagine why anyone would feel a need to redefine the terms - unless you've been reading too much of LaHaye or Lindsay. Hi there Buddy! Gee I can't think of such a back-handed maneuver to call someone anti-Semitic as you have done with your matching my post defining a term to the Klu Klux Klan! Let me say outright: I find your insinuation highly offensive! I will now standby for your apology... But this being Crosswalk, a Christian message board, somehow I think no apology will be forthcoming. I have already stated that I did NOT call anyone KKK in post 60. I'm sorry that you feel abused and misrepresented, but not for my comment. The direct comment I made was about your possibly reading too much Tim LaHaye or Hal Lindsay. That apparently didn't offend you but I'd be very out of sorts if someone said it to me. So I apologize for that underhanded comment.

prophetlady -> RE: 144,000 NOT JEWS (1/16/2008 4:37:18 PM)
so we all know the 144,00o are people, you have all said that one way or another, now you are saying the 144,000 are going to surround 4 things that are not people and have six wings, wow, how does the 144,000 see these things?

Lapidoth -> RE: 144,000 NOT JEWS (1/16/2008 4:43:53 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: prophetlady so we all know the 144,00o are people, you have all said that one way or another, now you are saying the 144,000 are going to surround 4 things that are not people and have six wings, wow, how does the 144,000 see these things? ??? Sorry, I haven't been able to follow the reasoning. Too many versions to try to compare them. lol.

Lapidoth -> RE: 144,000 NOT JEWS (1/16/2008 4:46:14 PM)
quote: Actually this whole discussion is somewhat confusing to me. Bob NAW !!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Surely Not! ROFL.

JimboFletch -> RE: 144,000 NOT JEWS (1/16/2008 4:52:34 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: carlkeigley quote: Actually this whole discussion is somewhat confusing to me. Bob NAW !!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Surely Not! ROFL. Hear about the snail that was mugged by a turtle? The police asked the snail to describe what happened. The snail replied, "I can't. It all happened to fast."

Sinner-Saint -> RE: 144,000 NOT JEWS (1/16/2008 5:00:09 PM)
Well, apology accepted. I have read Timothy LaHaye; I disagree with him on his central tenet of eschatology. However, he does have some things he has taught me about what is in store for us. I can learn from all kinds of people. Some I learn how to be; some others how not to be. As far as Hal Lindsay, I've heard the name, but I don't know much about him. While that might have insulted you, I took it for only a minor slight. You don't know me or how I have come to my conclusions about eschatology. However, to be branded as a rascist is something which tends to harm one's reputation; that I could not abide. quote: ORIGINAL: JimboFletch So I apologize for that underhanded comment. Thanks, I wasn't expecting to get an apology so soon.

cybrjewls -> RE: 144,000 NOT JEWS (1/16/2008 5:04:15 PM)
For God will place each in His Kingdom in accordance with what He has desired and Willed to come pass; for the Kingdom belongs to Him and He will run it the way that He has determined. For all Scripture is God breathed and useful for training in righteousness that the man of god may be thoroughly equipped for every good work. For Jesus said: Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will never pass away.

Lapidoth -> RE: 144,000 NOT JEWS (1/16/2008 5:19:10 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: JimboFletch quote: ORIGINAL: carlkeigley quote: Actually this whole discussion is somewhat confusing to me. Bob NAW !!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Surely Not! ROFL. Hear about the snail that was mugged by a turtle? The police asked the snail to describe what happened. The snail replied, "I can't. It all happened to fast." LOL. THat's a good one!!!

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