RE: 144,000 NOT JEWS (Full Version)

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cybrjewls -> RE: 144,000 NOT JEWS (1/15/2008 5:04:10 PM)

Greetings! I believe that the 144000 firstfruits to God chosen as holy and pleasing to Him will be sealed and thus be protected from the Great Tribulation Judgments that God issues in desolation decrees as recorded in revelation.
quote:

ORIGINAL: prophetlady

yes I believe in revelation 7# 14 Bob that come out means to exit before hand, and I believe my father would not leave my but down here to witness such atrocities, not my Lord no,



JimboFletch -> RE: 144,000 NOT JEWS (1/15/2008 5:04:14 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: prophetlady

yes I believe in revelation 7# 14 Bob that come out means to exit before hand, and I believe my father would not leave my but down here to witness such atrocities, not my Lord no,

Maam, it has nothing to do with offending your sensibilities that the Lord would take the Church out before the atrocities. It would have to do with the fact that those atrocities would be His holy judgement against the god of this age and all who follow him. There have been countless Christians suffering atrocities beyond your imagination for the sake of Christ - and even during this very month and year. The difference is that they suffer the horrific treatment and death in the Lord's service and as His witness.

The atrocities you are too precious to witness are judgement and wrath on those who hate Jesus and are not deserved by the Bride of Christ.



prophetlady -> RE: 144,000 NOT JEWS (1/15/2008 5:04:15 PM)

it's you picking on something so trivial as an S, it's so hurtful my goodness. I am getting used to this though, as Daniel says, the Wise will stumble, but be purified in the long run -grin-dawn waves



prophetlady -> RE: 144,000 NOT JEWS (1/15/2008 5:07:09 PM)

you will not make me feel guilty because I do not want to be around with the demons running from store to store trying to get water and food supplies, you will not make me feel guilty that the father himself has said he does not wish to leave ANYONE behind, which is scriptural, you will never make me feel guilty for that dear, I do not wish to see it, it does not mean I do not think they deserve it, big difference, I choose to believe in revelations 7#14 and I hold to that, and I hold to the fact the Lord loves me enough to take me out of here before that starts, because it will be very DEMONIC



JimboFletch -> RE: 144,000 NOT JEWS (1/15/2008 5:16:52 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: prophetlady

you will not make me feel guilty because I do not want to be around with the demons running from store to store trying to get water and food supplies, you will not make me feel guilty that the father himself has said he does not wish to leave ANYONE behind, which is scriptural, you will never make me feel guilty for that dear, I do not wish to see it, it does not mean I do not think they deserve it, big difference, I choose to believe in revelations 7#14 and I hold to that, and I hold to the fact the Lord loves me enough to take me out of here before that starts, because it will be very DEMONIC

Why should you feel guilty about what I wrote? It truly isn't about you - or me - it's about Him.

And there isn't a book in the Bible called Revelations. But if you know Revelation, 7:14, you'd also know that the ones mentioned there became believers DURING the tribulation and DIED for their faith. So, if you want to identify with them, either you have yet to be saved or else the tribulation has already started and you will soon die for your faith. Revelation 7:14 ISN'T about the rapture of the Church.

Just curious: Are you a Jehovah's Witness or a UPC?



prophetlady -> RE: 144,000 NOT JEWS (1/15/2008 5:19:50 PM)

no I am no denomination, but that is the way you wish to interpret it Jim, people are dying for their faith now so...

time shortened could also mean EARLY natural death that Jesus spoke about you know, he said SHORTENED. I choose to believe my time here will be shortened in that manner, well I was poisoned once, so who knows right?



JimboFletch -> RE: 144,000 NOT JEWS (1/15/2008 5:25:58 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: prophetlady

no I am no denomination, but that is the way you wish to interpret it Jim, people are dying for their faith now so...

time shortened could also mean EARLY natural death that Jesus spoke about you know, he said SHORTENED. I choose to believe my time here will be shortened in that manner, well I was poisoned once, so who knows right?

So the Church won't be given new bodies and meet Jesus in the air - the dead in Christ first and then those who are alive as the Bible states???

Is this something someone taught you or did you have a vision that scripture needed your extra revelation?



prophetlady -> RE: 144,000 NOT JEWS (1/15/2008 5:36:00 PM)

could you post up where this scripture is about the bodies, I have only found the one where it says SPIRITUAL bodies,

revelation speaks of second death, I believe you die once through the body, then the second death we beat is spiritual death..that is what I believe.



cybrjewls -> RE: 144,000 NOT JEWS (1/15/2008 5:41:35 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: prophetlady

could you post up where this scripture is about the bodies, I have only found the one where it says SPIRITUAL bodies,

revelation speaks of second death, I believe you die once through the body, then the second death we beat is spiritual death..that is what I believe.

It is written: it is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory..

The second death which is gehenna or Hell.

Word study lexicon for geenna in Gospels.



prophetlady -> RE: 144,000 NOT JEWS (1/15/2008 5:43:50 PM)

it is raised a spiritual body.

yes you are right it is raised a spiritual body..



prophetlady -> RE: 144,000 NOT JEWS (1/15/2008 5:45:36 PM)

"If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body"

I believe I have two bodies alright one with pudge on it, then the one inside, yuppers.



cybrjewls -> RE: 144,000 NOT JEWS (1/15/2008 5:51:37 PM)

Please notice the first resurrection for those that are martyrs for bearing Testimony to Christ and those who overcome the trial of the mark of the beast during the war on the saints to come.

They will be priests of God for a thousand years at Jerusalem along with Jesus. Along with the trials that they endure, there exists great reward and inheritances. Some will be given thrones to judge.
quote:

ORIGINAL: prophetlady

it is raised a spiritual body.

yes you are right it is raised a spiritual body..



Saved-To-Serve -> RE: 144,000 NOT JEWS (1/15/2008 6:04:06 PM)

I know we are all agreed that scripture must interpret scripture.

Therefore we must factor certain references into the mix when seeking to arrive at a proper understanding of what is meant by all the tribes of the children of Israel in Rev. 7:4.

The first thing is that the meaning of Israel is definitely expanded in the NT. E.g.
- Not all (literal) Israel are of Israel
- He is not a Jew who is only a Jew outwardly
- The true children of Abraham are those who have faith in Christ
- Gentiles and Jews who believe in Christ are members of the commonwealth of Israel
- Writing to the Christian believers, James addressed them as "the twelve tribes scattered abroad".

With such statements and more around, we cannot automatically assume, or insist, that Rev. 7:4 refers to literal Israel. In fact, the weight of NT evidence indicates that these tribes are the ones mentioned by James - all those, both Jews and Gentiles, who trust Christ as their Saviour - the commonwealth of Israel.



Conundrum -> RE: 144,000 NOT JEWS (1/15/2008 6:09:49 PM)

This is the only place in Scripture where, if it is referring to believers, a definite number from each tribe is listed. That makes it less allegorical/spiritual, in my opinion.

If the 144K are not natural descendants of Israel, then how does one know which tribe one is in?

Hey, can I be of the tribe of Judah? I wanna be in the same tribe Jesus was in. [8D]



prophetlady -> RE: 144,000 NOT JEWS (1/15/2008 6:38:56 PM)

let me ask you something Prophetica, do you have a degree, I find the ones with degrees argue with me the most, (other then the theologists that closed their forum yesterday) this is not being rude, I just wish to know, could you let me know that please, I actually had a few with degrees take my words as theirs (gags)



cybrjewls -> RE: 144,000 NOT JEWS (1/15/2008 6:46:33 PM)

Greetings prophetlady! Degrees are irrelevant for the Scripture teaches us honor for wisdom is more precious than rubies, and nothing you desire can compare with her.

We know that God has hidden it and revealed it to His little children and that your Father has been pleased to give you the kingdom.
quote:

ORIGINAL: prophetlady

let me ask you something Prophetica, do you have a degree, I find the ones with degrees argue with me the most, (other then the theologists that closed their forum yesterday) this is not being rude, I just wish to know, could you let me know that please, I actually had a few with degrees take my words as theirs (gags)



prophetlady -> RE: 144,000 NOT JEWS (1/15/2008 6:47:56 PM)

42So will it be with the resurrection of the dead. The body that is sown is perishable, it is raised imperishable; 43it is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory; it is sown in weakness, it is raised in power; 44it is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body.

the body that is perishable is the flesh, the spirit is what is IMPERISHABLE, when it talks in scriptures about people perishing, it is their SOULS, I mean the ones you see who are not in Christ, and have drug addictions, etc..that is PERISHING

and is raised in SPIRITUAL (POWER PART)



prophetlady -> RE: 144,000 NOT JEWS (1/15/2008 6:54:58 PM)

you are avoiding the question, is that a yes or NO? Degrees do not matter, however wanted to know if you have one?



cybrjewls -> RE: 144,000 NOT JEWS (1/15/2008 7:01:56 PM)

Greetings prophetlady! i would rather not discuss the degree of my formal education, as this is not germaine to the subject at hand. I am a little shy. As to the Jews, we read in Romans that God gave them a spirit of stupor in accordance with the Word spoken by Isaiah 29:10-17.

quote:

ORIGINAL: prophetlady

you are avoiding the question, is that a yes or NO? Degrees do not matter, however wanted to know if you have one?



Lapidoth -> RE: 144,000 NOT JEWS (1/15/2008 9:55:29 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: JimboFletch

quote:

ORIGINAL: prophetlady

If you dissect every delicate and rare bird you come across then you just end up with a mound of decaying carcasses instead of the wonder and beauty God intended. -JimboFletch

hmmm

Would you care to start a thread on the sayings of JimboFletch or does that have anything to do with this topic?

Just curious...



LOL.



Lapidoth -> RE: 144,000 NOT JEWS (1/15/2008 9:58:23 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: stolar1962

Rev 7:
1 After these things I saw four angels standing at the four corners of the earth, holding the four winds of the earth, that the wind should not blow on the earth, on the sea, or on any tree. 2 Then I saw another angel ascending from the east, having the seal of the living God. And he cried with a loud voice to the four angels to whom it was granted to harm the earth and the sea, 3 saying, "Do not harm the earth, the sea, or the trees till we have sealed the servants of our God on their foreheads." 4 And I heard the number of those who were sealed. One hundred and forty-four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel were sealed: 5 of the tribe of Judah twelve thousand were sealed; F51 of the tribe of Reuben twelve thousand were sealed; of the tribe of Gad twelve thousand were sealed; 6 of the tribe of Asher twelve thousand were sealed; of the tribe of Naphtali twelve thousand were sealed; of the tribe of Manasseh twelve thousand were sealed; 7 of the tribe of Simeon twelve thousand were sealed; of the tribe of Levi twelve thousand were sealed; of the tribe of Issachar twelve thousand were sealed; 8 of the tribe of Zebulun twelve thousand were sealed; of the tribe of Joseph twelve thousand were sealed; of the tribe of Benjamin twelve thousand were sealed.

when all else fails, look it up.

I don't think it was John who confused the interpretation of the who the 144,000 are..... the passage clearly states this group of people is comprised of members of all the tribes of Childred of Israel. It is different from the list in the Old Testament as Joseph was not list among the origial tribes, but is here. Levi wasn't given a portion of land as his tribe ministered to all the nation, is also listed here

Children of Israel - Jew. sounds pretty straightforward.


At least one got it right!!!!!



Sinner-Saint -> RE: 144,000 NOT JEWS (1/15/2008 10:07:27 PM)

quote:

I owe prophetlady a debt of thanks; I had glossed over the dual nature of Father/Son in the sealing of the 144,000. This should dispel any notion that these are strictly Jews.

quote:

ORIGINAL: WesSavedByGrace
I am not sure I follow your reasoning. How does this distinction dispel the notion that they are Jews?

The Firstfruits are of the same type as the Harvest.

The Harvest is for the Church.

The list of tribes John gives is UNLIKE ANY OTHER!

Paul says there is a spiritual Israel and a physical one.

So why does the 144,000 have to be Jews?

All the Bible says is that they are virgin men and they are Firstfruits.



Lapidoth -> RE: 144,000 NOT JEWS (1/15/2008 10:20:01 PM)

Revelation 7:4
tribes of the children of Israel = Judahites.



Sinner-Saint -> RE: 144,000 NOT JEWS (1/15/2008 10:20:59 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: bob97
Sorry but I don’t think there any textual basis to support those who claim that the 144, 000 are any entity other than physical descendants of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.

There is no compelling reason to spiritualize away the literal sense. Every tribe of the sons of Israel has solid biblical support as a referent of Jews only.

If they are Jews only, then why does John use a completely different listing of the twelve tribes of Israel?

John, as a Jew, should know his lineage.

The 144,000 could be Jewish, but more than that - they are believers in Christ; they are the Firstfruits of the Harvest of the Church.

quote:

ORIGINAL: bob97
Remember, Revelation is principally about the Nation of Israel and how God deals with them. If you question this, just remember where most of the action takes place…is it not Jerusalem? And where the final battle takes place, is it not Israel?

Revelation means to uncover, to reveal.

It is not principally about Israel, but rather ties together OT prophecies so that God's plan can be discerned. If nothing else, the Church is also at the forefront being the predominant factor in the people who are part of the first Resurrection.



Lapidoth -> RE: 144,000 NOT JEWS (1/15/2008 10:28:18 PM)

quote:

then why does John use a completely different listing of the twelve tribes of Israel?


This would take us back to Genesis 49 as Jacob spoke over the sons of Israel.

Reuben lost his birthright and his place of leadership.
The birthright went to Joseph.
The leadership went to Judah.

It's pretty complicated to explain with the western gentile mentality.
Joseph received the "double-portion" birthright becoming two tribes (Ephraim and Mannaseh).
The lineage of legitimate kings comes from Judah as the sceptre is never to leave that tribe.

http://all4hisglory.org/forums/index.php?topic=1572.0

Here I made a meager attempt at explaining some of it.



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