RE: Do we need an UNNatural childbirth support and discussion thread too?
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RE: Do we need an UNNatural childbirth support and disc... - 2/15/2008 4:43:08 PM
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DenimDiva
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I haven't read all the posts. Not even all of the ones on the first page. lol
I had 3 natural and 1 C. My 3rd child was a C and my 4th was a VBAC.
The decision has to be made between God, mom and dr. It's not my place to tell another woman what is best for her baby and her body.
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RE: Do we need an UNNatural childbirth support and disc... - 2/27/2008 11:03:26 AM
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manda59
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I just want to say that it really annoys me when some people speak about Caesarean section deliveries as if they were a disease, like leprosy, the absolute end of the world.
Round about the same time as I had my first child, a mother-to-be, who had been told she should have a Caesarean section, insisted on having a vaginal delivery, ignored medical advice and insisted on doing things her way .............. and her baby died. Now, I appreciate that this will have been devastating for her and her husband/family, but it was also very upsetting for the hospital staff, who were very caring and dedicated people. I honestly do not see the point in insisting on a vaginal delivery when the baby is at risk, I really don't.
<gets off soapbox>
_____________________________
"I have nothing to add, except to agree with Manda."
(agapetos, July 2008)
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RE: Do we need an UNNatural childbirth support and disc... - 2/27/2008 12:28:03 PM
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3cappuccinosmom
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Manda, I don't think they are the end of the world. Sometimes they are necessary.
I just have been told too many times that that my babies were "at risk" if I didn't do things the medical way and found that to be completely incorrect. I refused sections and inductions against medical advice and my babies *didn't* die, because they weren't truly at risk, the doctors were just covering their behinds for liability reasons.  It's amazing how the pressure fizzled out when I asked for the papers I needed to sign to remove liability from them and the hospital. 
If I had a baby that was genuinely ill, or genuinely unsafe in the womb, I wouldn't find an induction or section to be upsetting. I'd be glad for my health and my baby's safety.
However, if, for instance I had gone ahead with an induction and/or ended up with a section for my first baby who was supposed to be "gigantic", I would have been extremely upset and angry to find out that I had gone through that for a falsehood--he was under 7 pounds. That would then have put me in high risk category for future pregnancies, not just for having to have more surgeries, but placental problems related to the scar, etc. It's unnecessary interventions and fear mongering that gets my goat, not the necessary ones that do good for both mom and baby.
I think the understanding needs to go both ways. I understand and sympathize with women who choose c-sections and I'm glad that some are perfectly fine with it. However, for some of us it *would* be traumatic and unpleasant. And for some women it is even beyond your basic unpleasantness, which is why passions run so high. Just as it is not right to dismiss women's feelings who have been fine with their c-section, it is not right to dismiss the feelings of those who were disappointed or even hurt.
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"Children are durable and don’t necessarily wilt under adversity, just as our children don’t necessarily thrive under luxury and comfort." Garrison Keillor
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RE: Do we need an UNNatural childbirth support and disc... - 2/27/2008 4:06:13 PM
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manda59
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quote:
ORIGINAL: 3cappuccinosmom
Just as it is not right to dismiss women's feelings who have been fine with their c-section, it is not right to dismiss the feelings of those who were disappointed or even hurt.
I didn't dismiss them. I myself was disappointed, felt a failure and developed post-natal depression following mine,
Some of it was due to the stress of having already been in labour and then having it; some of it was due to it being an emergency; but some of it (a large part of it) was also due to the negative view I had of Caesareans that had been given to me by a number of "natural" childbirth advocates, and from not having been prepared for one by the staff who were caring for me during my pregnancy.
When my ds was 9 months old, I explored the possibility of setting up a Caesarean Support Network where I lived, and approached hospital staff (midwives and consultants) about it. They were supportive, passed on my details to ante-natal clinics and to the maternity wards, and I set about visiting women, either pregnant (and likely to have a section) or newly delivered and not coping.
The work I did was helpful to the women but also therapeutic to me. But it wasn't until I'd had my VBAC with my 2nd child that I fully realised the good things about having a Caesarean. If this had all been explained to me during my first pregnancy, and if I had been given so many negative vibes about Caesareans, I think I would have coped a lot better.
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"I have nothing to add, except to agree with Manda."
(agapetos, July 2008)
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RE: Do we need an UNNatural childbirth support and disc... - 2/27/2008 5:22:46 PM
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purejoy
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quote:
ORIGINAL: 3cappuccinosmom
I just have been told too many times that that my babies were "at risk" if I didn't do things the medical way and found that to be completely incorrect. I refused sections and inductions against medical advice and my babies *didn't* die, because they weren't truly at risk, the doctors were just covering their behinds for liability reasons. It's amazing how the pressure fizzled out when I asked for the papers I needed to sign to remove liability from them and the hospital.
I think, on these boards especially, this is very down-played. I don't think a lot of people (not you in particular, Maggie) understand how HUGE this liability is. To a lot of people, this is annoying and irrititating and unnecessary.
But to me, as a medical professional, this is my LIFE, this is my MINISTRY. The liability is huge. And now I am no longer protected by my hospital. Not even 30 miles from where I live there was a nurse who made a mistake that ended up in a death. A very terrible thing. If you look at the chain of events, you can see exactly how that mistake happened. But now, she has been charged with a FELONY. That is your LIFE.
To me it's not worth it. I'm not an OB nurse, but you're right, the liability is huge. MEDICALLY speaking (not naturally or unnaturally or whatever, but medically speaking) there is a huge liability. If you are comfortable with signing away on it, then that's fine. But for the majority of people, it's just not worth it.
To say they're covering their behinds for liability reasons...of course they are.
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RE: Do we need an UNNatural childbirth support and disc... - 2/28/2008 1:56:03 PM
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Sideways
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Maggie, the real concern I have, is what if you're told that the baby is at risk, and you don't believe them ... and the baby ends up dying?
How do you know when to ignore the doctor and when to listen? You don't have a medical degree. What if 9 times out of 10 the warnings are just being over-cautious, and on the 10th baby, the baby ends up dead?
I don't know if I could risk my baby like that. I'd rather have my own body cut open.
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RE: Do we need an UNNatural childbirth support and disc... - 2/28/2008 2:07:21 PM
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LaurainAL
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I agree with Sideways. If you choose a Dr. you trust based on his or her credentials and then dismiss their advice as fear-mongering then why even bother accepting medical care.
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RE: Do we need an UNNatural childbirth support and disc... - 2/28/2008 2:10:10 PM
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Sideways
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quote:
ORIGINAL: LaurainAL
I agree with Sideways. If you choose a Dr. you trust based on his or her credentials and then dismiss their advice as fear-mongering then why even bother accepting medical care.
Well, that's why a few women here believe in unassisted child birth, not even a midwife or anything.
But I did specifically choose a doc office that employs midwives, believes in a "take it easy" approach to pre-natal care and child birth, and generally doesn't make to much of a fuss about stuff like weight gain unless there's a real problem.
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RE: Do we need an UNNatural childbirth support and disc... - 2/28/2008 5:02:07 PM
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PrincessDonna
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I trust my doctor. He has done one open surgery on me. He has always been very honest with me. If he told me I needed a c-section, I'd probably trust him and do it. I would do any necessary research and would ask whatever questions I had, and in the end, I'd probably go with his recommendation. Now, if one of his colleagues who I don't know as well were to make the same recommendation, I would ask to speak to MY doctor.
I do understand that some women do not have much choice in who their doctor/midwife is, and this can affect the ability to find a doctor who shares your philosophy. I have no choice in doctor either, but I guess I am lucky, with a GREAT Christian doctor. 
_____________________________
For I will pour water on the thirsty land,
and streams on the dry ground;
I will pour out my Spirit on your offspring,
and my blessing on your descendants.
~Isaiah 44:3~
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RE: Do we need an UNNatural childbirth support and disc... - 2/28/2008 5:54:03 PM
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Mrs.Wifey
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I think the key is that most women don't trust their OB, it's taken me 5 years to find an OB/GYN who I trust and whose method of medicine most matches my feelings- that our bodies are made to be pregnant, labor, and give birth on their own and with as few interventions as possible.
But he also doesn't believe that most women really have pelvis' that are "to small". It does happen, like in your case Ruth, but in the majority of cases I really think it's just because c-sections are faster, easier, and make more money.
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Ryanne Gabriella Alexis born 8-22-07!
The opinions stated in the above post are solely mine and in no way should they be
construed as offensive due to your own insecurity.
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RE: Do we need an UNNatural childbirth support and disc... - 2/28/2008 6:02:55 PM
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peculiar_lady2
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Sideways
Maggie, the real concern I have, is what if you're told that the baby is at risk, and you don't believe them ... and the baby ends up dying?
How do you know when to ignore the doctor and when to listen? You don't have a medical degree. What if 9 times out of 10 the warnings are just being over-cautious, and on the 10th baby, the baby ends up dead?
I don't know if I could risk my baby like that. I'd rather have my own body cut open.
I totally agree with that, which is why TO ME it makes more sense for them to say "due to insurance coverage, we are required to tell you ________ about this situation" and save the "scare tactics" for when they are TRUE medical needs, not just insurance not liking it. I think that is exactly what Maggie is saying too...be TRUTHFUL in the real reason you are trying to get me to go a certain route...and then let me decide which of those routes I would like to follow. In a true medically needed case I can see having dr's tell you the raw deal of what needs to be done, but often they do that when it's not that big of a deal and it's just insurance issues. BE TRUTHFUL to me and tell me it's just that your insurance requires such and such.
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Mom to Jake, Hannah, Emma, Jackson, and Justice
"The purpose of all war is peace."
-Saint Augustine
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RE: Do we need an UNNatural childbirth support and disc... - 2/28/2008 7:05:53 PM
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Sideways
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So, are we thinking that problems are created when the doctors "cry wolf"? I can understand that.
But I agree that whenever possible, employ a doctor you trust, educate yourself as much as possible, and then accept that birthing isn't always perfect.
Ryanne, I still don't completely understand why Nathan never engaged in the birth canal. My water broke on it's own. I did try rocking in a chair, standing, that kinda stuff. But the same exact thing happened to my mom, which is why I think that babies "getting stuck" is more an issue of the woman's body, not how large the baby is.
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RE: Do we need an UNNatural childbirth support and disc... - 2/28/2008 7:14:15 PM
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peculiar_lady2
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quote:
So, are we thinking that problems are created when the doctors "cry wolf"? I can understand that.
yeah that's (I think) what Maggie was talking about (and definitely what I got out of her post). We know that there are REAL medical conditions for REAL medical interventions...but they cover everything in the same words so who is to say when it really is a medical need and not an insurance thing.
_____________________________
Proud Army Wife
Mom to Jake, Hannah, Emma, Jackson, and Justice
"The purpose of all war is peace."
-Saint Augustine
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RE: Do we need an UNNatural childbirth support and disc... - 2/28/2008 7:31:59 PM
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manda59
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The set-up that you are describing here is unfamiliar to me because in the UK we get our healthcare free (aside from non-essentials) on the NHS (National Health Service), unless we choose to go private and pay.
So there isn't any element of Caesareans making more money, or there being any insurance issues (or lawsuit issues - which don't happen very often), or whatever.
It's hard for me to imagine what it would be like if things were different.
_____________________________
"I have nothing to add, except to agree with Manda."
(agapetos, July 2008)
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RE: Do we need an UNNatural childbirth support and disc... - 2/28/2008 9:18:35 PM
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JoyfulWife
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quote:
So there isn't any element of Caesareans making more money, or there being any insurance issues (or lawsuit issues - which don't happen very often), or whatever.
That is really nice - it seems like doctors would be more honest in those situations and less likely to "cry wolf" for insurance reasons. I think Europe in general has a much better set up for childbirth.
I don't trust the OBs in my city at all. They lobbied to have CNMs kicked out of all the area hospitals because the CNMs were taking all of the OB's patients. I live in a city where the c-section rate is a bit higher than average, and where the area hospitals make 66% of their profits off of c-sections. The OBs here are anti-natural and dislike midwives of any sort. I have yet to hear a positive birth experience in the hospital from people I know in this city, and I don't hang with people who want all-natural either (there really aren't that many here). That is enough to make me very wary of OBs here, and willing to drive to the next state down if I was planning a hospital birth.
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Whatever my lot, Thou hast taught me to say,
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RE: Do we need an UNNatural childbirth support and disc... - 2/29/2008 7:54:42 AM
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3cappuccinosmom
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quote:
I totally agree with that, which is why TO ME it makes more sense for them to say "due to insurance coverage, we are required to tell you ________ about this situation" and save the "scare tactics" for when they are TRUE medical needs, not just insurance not liking it. I think that is exactly what Maggie is saying too...be TRUTHFUL in the real reason you are trying to get me to go a certain route...and then let me decide which of those routes I would like to follow.
Thank you. That is what I meant. 
And while I do not have a medical degree, others who do (and who did not have liability concerns with me) backed me up all three times this happened. And the fact that it happened three times ("your baby's too big, you can't give birth normally") makes me very hesitant to trust any doctor who jumps to induction or c/s on the basis of size alone.
When Biruk showed up transverse, I was perfectly willing to have a c-section if I went into labor at that moment. When he switched back to perfect vertex, I was no longer willing, and that annoyed the doctor.
Unfortunately, though I love my midwives, I can't pick their doctors. And unfortunately, the doctors who back them up are known to have rotten bedside manners. A little honesty would have saved us all a lot of stress and upset.
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"Children are durable and don’t necessarily wilt under adversity, just as our children don’t necessarily thrive under luxury and comfort." Garrison Keillor
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RE: Do we need an UNNatural childbirth support and disc... - 2/29/2008 5:36:38 PM
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purejoy
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I think, as has been mentioned earlier, they key is trusting your doctor. If you don't, then you don't.
My issue with this is not actually regarding when or how or what size of baby to give birth to. My issue is that there should be respect for the medical people that are in that tough position. If there is liability, it's obviously for some reason. That doesn't mean that this time with your baby anything will go wrong, and Maggie I don't think it was necessary for you to have a C with your babies. But sometimes things do go wrong, and obviously the best outcome is what is wanted. In all honesty, to the majority of people, if there is ANY risk (and hence medical liability) whatsoever, they want that something else done, whether it's a C or whatever.
I'm with Sideways on the fact that if my doctor recommended a c-section, I would go with it. Because she knows and respects me, and I know and respect her. She knows what I want (not a C) so if she would get to the point of saying "Look, we really need to do this," I would. But I do trust my doctor.
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RE: Do we need an UNNatural childbirth support and disc... - 2/29/2008 7:11:18 PM
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peculiar_lady2
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I was told with baby #4 (after giving birth to three very healthy babies vaginally)...that my dr would refuse to do the birth if the baby was 9lb or larger. He insisted that they would do a U/S before they induced (we chose induction so that my deployed hubby could be there) and if the baby was 9lb then he wouldn't do it. Well, luckily they forget the u/s the next morning and guess what....he delivered a 9lb baby...with NO complications. First APGAR was 10...I have been close to that before with other babies, but never actually had that yet. He had no problems medically whatsoever. I had no problems medically whatsoever. Yet because of insurance he would be required to not deliver a perfectly healthy baby and was prepared to push for a C (which I was readily also prepared to deny)
_____________________________
Proud Army Wife
Mom to Jake, Hannah, Emma, Jackson, and Justice
"The purpose of all war is peace."
-Saint Augustine
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RE: Do we need an UNNatural childbirth support and disc... - 2/29/2008 7:15:54 PM
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PrincessDonna
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Having had a 9+ pounder and a 10+ pounder, I would agree to an induction near the due date for that reason, but not a c-section. My pelvis is proven. Twice.
I think if I had a transverse near term baby, I would choose to wait and see (like Maggie did) and hope they turned. I wouldn't do either a version/induction or a c-section right away.
Not sure if I'd be willing to try a breech baby vaginally. Hope I never have to find out.
_____________________________
For I will pour water on the thirsty land,
and streams on the dry ground;
I will pour out my Spirit on your offspring,
and my blessing on your descendants.
~Isaiah 44:3~
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RE: Do we need an UNNatural childbirth support and disc... - 3/1/2008 5:13:06 AM
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3cappuccinosmom
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quote:
if there is ANY risk (and hence medical liability) whatsoever, they want that something else done, whether it's a C or whatever.
But then they're forgetting that inductions and sections also carry risk.
We weigh the risk on both sides. If Biruk had stayed transverse, the balance would have fallen in favor of c-section, no question. So far, though, in all pregnancies, the balance has fallen the other way.
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"Children are durable and don’t necessarily wilt under adversity, just as our children don’t necessarily thrive under luxury and comfort." Garrison Keillor
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After reading that, I stopped going in to that thread. That is just way too hard core for me.
