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RE: Natural Childbirth-support and discussion - 1/23/2008 4:27:33 PM
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Jenny-Fair
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It is not the doctors' fault that women follow them blindly, is it? There are two sides to the problem-doctors making decisions for their own financial/legal wellbeing, ease of work, etc, and women who are willing to submit to them without putting in the work of researching, etc.
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RE: Natural Childbirth-support and discussion - 1/23/2008 4:49:15 PM
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Jenny-Fair
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quote:
I don't think that Jenny was saying that anyone who didn't birth HER way was blind or lazy, just that there are many women who don't do their homework and end up with (likely) preventable interventions because they did not have all the facts to make an informed decision.
I was not saying that at all. The problem I have with some women is that they are unwilling to consider that the doctor may not have been completely honest with them. They will not question anything, and so they are willingly submitting to completely unnecessary surgery (I am not speaking of NCB, I am speaking of the c-section rate, which is ONE THIRD of births in the US, and that is unspeakably horrible but women seem to willingly accept this) ONE THIRD of us have not been made wrong or incapable of birthing our own babies. ONE THIRD of our babies are not too large, and doctors are wrong so many times as to the size of a baby before it's born anyway! ONE THIRD of our labors are not failing to progress the way they ought-they are just failing to progress the way the doctor would prefer, but so many women do not educate themselves, do not take charge of their own bodies, and I really hate that! It's irresponsible!
The above paragraph, and my other posts, are not talking about women who DO put in the time looking at the truth and their options and choose to do things differently than I do them. I have said that many times before-I don't care what choices you make except the choice to not care enough. That one gets on my nerves. And we have a culture of women who submit blindly and then get defensive when someone suggests that they may have submitted blindly and their doctors may not have their best interests at heart.
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Tony: Ziva, did you kill Houdini?
Ziva: It is possible. I do not remember all their names.
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RE: Natural Childbirth-support and discussion - 1/23/2008 4:52:22 PM
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LaurainAL
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quote:
And we have a culture of women who submit blindly and then get defensive when someone suggests that they may have submitted blindly and their doctors may not have their best interests at heart.
I think it's all in the delivery of your suggestion Jenny-Fair.
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RE: Natural Childbirth-support and discussion - 1/23/2008 4:55:40 PM
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Jenny-Fair
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I cannot make it any more clear that I am not talking about every woman, every c-section recipient (a group I belong to!), every decision.
I cannot be less passionate about this, and I cannot be less angry that we are not 'allowed' to talk about this travesty without being told we are insensitive. It is this very attitude that is causing much of the harm that I am speaking of.
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Tony: Ziva, did you kill Houdini?
Ziva: It is possible. I do not remember all their names.
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RE: Natural Childbirth-support and discussion - 1/23/2008 4:55:51 PM
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Sideways
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Jenny-Fair
I disagree-these doctors, largely men, forced and coerced their way into the women's bodies basically for their own gratification. However, I will refrain from using the term in that way out of respect for you and others on this board.
Gratification? As if they were getting their kicks? I never even saw a doctor until I was in the OR. I had a lovely, female midwife who worked with me through my labor, and spoke to me with gentleness and respect. I did my yoga, daily walks, natural birthing class... It just didn't work out.
I'm not sure who you think was getting 'gratified' by the surgery.
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RE: Natural Childbirth-support and discussion - 1/23/2008 4:57:46 PM
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clag4christ
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quote:
I was not saying that at all. The problem I have with some women is that they are unwilling to consider that the doctor may not have been completely honest with them. They will not question anything, and so they are willingly submitting to completely unnecessary surgery (I am not speaking of NCB, I am speaking of the c-section rate, which is ONE THIRD of births in the US, and that is unspeakably horrible but women seem to willingly accept this) ONE THIRD of us have not been made wrong or incapable of birthing our own babies. ONE THIRD of our babies are not too large, and doctors are wrong so many times as to the size of a baby before it's born anyway! ONE THIRD of our labors are not failing to progress the way they ought-they are just failing to progress the way the doctor would prefer, but so many women do not educate themselves, do not take charge of their own bodies, and I really hate that! It's irresponsible!
The above paragraph, and my other posts, are not talking about women who DO put in the time looking at the truth and their options and choose to do things differently than I do them. I have said that many times before-I don't care what choices you make except the choice to not care enough. That one gets on my nerves. And we have a culture of women who submit blindly and then get defensive when someone suggests that they may have submitted blindly and their doctors may not have their best interests at heart.
I agree completely. I have a friend here who went into labor on her own (good solid regular contractions) and went to the hospital to have her baby. She hadn't taken my advice that she draw up a birth plan or do her own research (of which I'm sad...but it was her choice). As soon as she got to her room they strapped her to the bed with monitors, broke her water, started the pit. drip and waited for her to progress. Well the pit caused her contractions to become too strong and her daughter wasn't tolerating them well. She (the daughter) got lodged under the pelvic bone, and instead of having mom turn on her side or squat push the told her that her daughter's head was swelling and that she was going to need an emergency C. 
My friend ended up being added to the growing number of first time birthers who end up with completely preventable c-sections.
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RE: Natural Childbirth-support and discussion - 1/23/2008 4:58:51 PM
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Royal.Fortress
Posts: 1984
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From: Ontario
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quote:
(I am speaking of the c-section rate, which is ONE THIRD of births in the US, and that is unspeakably horrible but women seem to willingly accept this) ONE THIRD of us have not been made wrong or incapable of birthing our own babies. ONE THIRD of our babies are not too large, and doctors are wrong so many times as to the size of a baby before it's born anyway! ONE THIRD of our labors are not failing to progress the way they ought-they are just failing to progress the way the doctor would prefer, but so many women do not educate themselves, do not take charge of their own bodies, and I really hate that! It's irresponsible!
I agree with you 100%, Jenny. It makes me sad that 1/3 of women today think that there's something wrong with their bodies ... I am thankful for the c-sections that actually save lives ... for the c-sections for TRUE medical emergencies that come up during labour and delivery. I truly am 100% thankful for the medical knowledge and skill that allows OBs to save babies ... but I do take serious issue with the fact that, among low-risk women, c-section rates of around 4 - 10% (don't have my stat book right here) mean the same number of maternal/fetal deaths. If only 4 - 10% of women REALLY need c-sections, why are over 30% having them? Why are 20% of women having completely unnecessary surgery? It just blows my mind!!
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RE: Natural Childbirth-support and discussion - 1/23/2008 4:59:06 PM
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Jenny-Fair
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quote:
As if they were getting their kicks?
It's power and control, much of the time (not that I did not say EVERY time). It's selfishness-wanting to be home for dinner or a favorite TV show, not to mention the fact that they earn far more money for far less work. It's self-deification, because they cannot abide sitting by and letting nature take its course but think they can do it better.
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RE: Natural Childbirth-support and discussion - 1/23/2008 5:00:27 PM
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clag4christ
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quote:
It's selfishness-wanting to be home for dinner or a favorite TV show
Or to make their vacation schedule go smoothly...
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<-----Jael as Tinkerbell - Halloween 2008
If you don't want people to insult your intelligence; don't make it so obvious that you have none.
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RE: Natural Childbirth-support and discussion - 1/23/2008 5:04:59 PM
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Royal.Fortress
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Sideways - I think she's referring to unnecessary c-sections, not necessary ones. I think we can all understand that sometimes, birth doesn't happen the way we'd hoped, and it's not because our bodies have failed us, but because of a true emergency situation. Jenny is (I believe) talking about the surgeries performed because women's bodies aren't performing to the doctor's standards - like with the story that Kim just shared. Many OBs, sadly, do believe that c-sections are the 'better' way to birth - and while for some women (again, 4 - 10%), it IS the better way to birth, for many (the other over 90%), it is an unnecessary surgery and often leads to feelings of guilt and trauma.
We all make our birthing choices based on the information we have - natural, epidural, elective c-section - and we are all responsible for our choices. As long as it's an informed choice, I have no problem with whatever anyone chooses! My heart just weeps for those who don't know that they HAVE a choice, or give their power to someone else.
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Kim
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RE: Natural Childbirth-support and discussion - 1/23/2008 5:13:16 PM
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Royal.Fortress
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In one of the books I read, it suggested buying a plastic sheet (or two) and a set of sheets (or two) that you don't care about being ruined. Then you layer! One set of sheets, a plastic sheet, another set of sheets. That way, after the birth, the sheets (and plastic) can be stripped off and you've got another set right under them! (I'll probably put another plastic sheet under that set too, just in case!)
I haven't figured out yet what I'm going to wear!! Hmmm ...
ETA:
quote:
d experiences after their 1st c-section, and elect to have all future births be via cesarean. When you add the emergency 1st times, with the elctive 2nd, 3rd, and 4th times, you come up to 30% of all births.
I really don't think that's the case - if you look at other countries, you'll see that their c-section rates remain steady ... even at 15%, they're steady at 15%. The US has the highest c-section rate and similar, if not worse maternal/fetal mortality rates. And I did say in my next post that I don't care if you choose an elective c-section - in fact, I can understand why people do - as long as it's because you want it and you're informed about it!
< Message edited by Royal.Fortress -- 1/23/2008 5:19:55 PM >
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Kim
my blog -> kim thru the looking glass
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<- My beautiful baby girl!
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RE: Natural Childbirth-support and discussion - 1/23/2008 5:18:27 PM
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Jenny-Fair
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quote:
For those of you who birthed at home (or who are planning to!) what did you wear and what did you put on your bed/around your bed to protect things from the blood?
I wore a nightshirt when things really got going. And I never went near my bed until after he was born! LOL I birthed in the living room, leaning against the couch between active periods. We had chuck pads-the blue absorbent things-and a lot of towels, which my midwife tossed in the wash with some hydrogen peroxide afterwards.
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Tony: Ziva, did you kill Houdini?
Ziva: It is possible. I do not remember all their names.
My Blog
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RE: Natural Childbirth-support and discussion - 1/23/2008 5:31:37 PM
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Jenny-Fair
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If you are homebirthing, you probably have to buy your kit from a supply place, right? Everyone I know does anyway! LOL, so these places should have available plastic sheets for your bed. I would just add them to my kit.
_____________________________
Tony: Ziva, did you kill Houdini?
Ziva: It is possible. I do not remember all their names.
My Blog
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RE: Natural Childbirth-support and discussion - 1/23/2008 9:24:44 PM
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JoyfulWife
Posts: 233
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From: The South
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quote:
ORIGINAL: paulsbride
For those of you who birthed at home (or who are planning to!) what did you wear and what did you put on your bed/around your bed to protect things from the blood?
I wore.....nothing   Much more comfortable that way, lol! Of course, no one can really look at our pictures from labor, pushing stage, and after the birth since I'm nude, but that's okay I guess! We have some other picture from after I got all cleaned up, was tucked in bed, and was at least half dressed. I didn't bother wearing anything on the bottom half for days since I just stayed in bed and had the covers pulled up 
For the bed, we layered like Kim mentioned. We had regular sheets on the very bottom (sheets that we would want on the bed after the birth was over), double layer of plastic covering that, and old sheets that I didn't care anything about on top of that. Surprisingly enough, I didn't get a drop of blood on our sheets. I did throw up on them though, so we had to change them after that. We had tons of chux pads, and I sat on those most of the time if I was on the bed. On our floors, we completely covered (and taped down) the carpeted areas with the huge sheets of plastic you buy at Home Depot and are used for covering things when you paint your house. It really wasn't messy at all, except for when I pushed Hannah out and tons of water came out with her. We were standing over a plastic covered area though, so it wasn't a big deal.
On c-sections: A very interesting statistic that I have found is from Ina May Gaskin (she tells about it in the film The Business of Being Born). She said that the first c-section they had to perform was after over 300 vaginal births. Their second c-section was after another 300 or so. They have a 1 in 300 rate. Compare that to our national average of 1 in 3 (1 in 2 in some places in New York  ) and it kind of gets you thinking.
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but at that time, it was the c-section that saved my son's life. 
(though I'm not choosing to give birth there just so I can have the cleaning staff clean up after me 
