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RE: Spousal Rape - 1/12/2008 11:25:58 PM
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bigboytenor
Posts: 513
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From: Webb City, MO
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quote:
ORIGINAL: maddog4god
Ironic that we even entertain this conversation - it's easy to have an opinion with no experience.
it's rather easy, simple, neat and pretty to say - "there is no such thing as marital rape", that is unless your spouse has held you down against your will and had completed sex with you despite verbal requests to stop now.
Judge not, lest you be judge.
While I appreciate and agree with the first part of your post, what does "Judge not, lest you be judge" have to do with anything. That scripture is referring to not judging the lost world according to scriptural standards as that is assuming God's role in that person's life.
In an earlier post someone quoted I Corinthians 7. That scripture is taken completely out of context in the post. Paul is speaking of not withholding sex from one another so that we don't sin. He doesn't say there should never be an opportunity when one spouse or the other doesn't or can't have intercourse for some reason. Also, I believe Paul states clearly that he is speaking in regard to this issue and not God. Please correct me if that's wrong.
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RE: Spousal Rape - 1/13/2008 12:57:53 AM
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solo_soprano22
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I think she may have meant the judging part for those who don't think this kind of rape exists.
I hear people say that others should not withold, but what happens during extended illness...maybe even permanent? I don't really think of that as witholding, but I do know of times when a woman was raped because she couldn't have sex (physical pain disorder)...so he just did it anyway.
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RE: Spousal Rape - 1/13/2008 1:50:56 AM
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Keabird
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What of a situation where the wife really does not feel up to it, and explains that to the husband, but does not stop him from doing it, although she feels used and gets no joy out of it whatsoever ... is that rape?
Or what if the wife tells the husband she is not up to it, and she wakes in the night to find him doing it, and she cries for feeling so used. Is that rape? If we put those circumstances into a non-married dating relationship, would we say that was rape? Does the fact there is a marriage covenant change it so that it is not rape?
These are both real experiences had by two women.
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RE: Spousal Rape - 1/13/2008 4:45:48 AM
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amyk
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I thought rape was any sexual intercourse without the consent of one of the partners. So, I don't see why marital rape could not occur.
And for people who are using the Bible to make it seem like the wife always has to have sex with her husband any time he wants it, just remember that the husband is to love the wife as Christ loves the Church. Can you imagine Jesus Christ forcing His Church to do something just for His own gratification if the Church, in doing so, would feel pain or resentment?
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RE: Spousal Rape - 1/13/2008 7:42:55 AM
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maddog4god
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With holding purposefully is wrong as well - and since a sin is a sin is a sin - is the same in God's eyes I suppose. Not to mention with holding and rape are never good for a relationship.
If you judge someone else's sins - God has a way of letting them visit you in one form or another and you can easily find yourself judged for the same thing. Not necessarily the same act, but the same feelings, scnearios, etc.
Pehaps I ought not to have said that - I have been raped both maritally and otherwise and I find SOME Of the posts in this thread ignorant (in the truest sense of the word) and offensive.
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RE: Spousal Rape - 1/13/2008 10:35:47 AM
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solo_soprano22
Posts: 2474
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Keabird
What of a situation where the wife really does not feel up to it, and explains that to the husband, but does not stop him from doing it, although she feels used and gets no joy out of it whatsoever ... is that rape?
Or what if the wife tells the husband she is not up to it, and she wakes in the night to find him doing it, and she cries for feeling so used. Is that rape? If we put those circumstances into a non-married dating relationship, would we say that was rape? Does the fact there is a marriage covenant change it so that it is not rape?
These are both real experiences had by two women.
I keep thinking about the situation karlie mentioned on page one. I imagine I'd be quite traumatized.
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RE: Spousal Rape - 1/13/2008 12:14:01 PM
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draexo
Posts: 507
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From: Saratoga County, New York
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quote:
ORIGINAL: solo_soprano21
I'm just wondering, in your opinion, should the punishment for spousal/marital rape be the same as it is for a stranger who raped a woman (or person who isn't their husband)?
I understand some Christians don't believe that marital rape exists, and I don't mind it being discussed or debated here.
Let the thread begin!
I think you are missing the forest for the trees. Rape is not about sex - it is about power. There is something not working in the mindset of a rapist. Or maybe there is something else at work. Sure, we quote scripture about our bodies not being our
own.. but rape is not about sex. It is about power. Does anyone really thing God wants us raping our spouses? And if we are to love our spouses as Jesus loves the church... where is compassion? Where is loving our neighbor as we love ourselves?
I would think Christians would never get to this point! Does maritial rape exist? Absolutely. Should it exist in a Christian marriage? No. Should it be punished? Yes.
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TRUTH
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RE: Spousal Rape - 1/13/2008 12:44:21 PM
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DaveW
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quote:
ORIGINAL: buckifn
Here is something I read about West Virginia law..
For example, in West Virginia, spousal sexual assault is defined as unconsented sexual penetration or sexual intrusion of the perpetrator's spouse....
This is typical of rape laws. Please note that according to this it would be physically impossible for a woman to be prosecuted under this definition.
quote:
original: maddog4god
With holding purposefully is wrong as well - and since a sin is a sin is a sin - is the same in God's eyes I suppose. Not to mention with holding and rape are never good for a relationship first off "a sin is a sin is a sin" is an unbiblical falacy. Not all sins are the same by any stretch. Even Jesus said his betrayer had commited a "greater sin."
Rape, whether against a spouse or anyone else is clearly in another category from refusal. Not even close.
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RE: Spousal Rape - 1/13/2008 7:10:30 PM
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draexo
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Yes, rape should be punished. Whether one is raping a spouse or a stranger.
Same punishment.
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TRUTH
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RE: Spousal Rape - 1/13/2008 8:01:46 PM
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daughter_of_faith
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Keabird, that was the question that came to my mind as well. I know there are times when a partner doesn't feel any enjoyment during the intercourse, but he or she didn't say no to the act even though he or she had explained that they were not up it. Is that the same thing?
I'm a little uncertain myself because it seems a little vague...especially since as Christians our body now belongs to the other spouse.
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RE: Spousal Rape - 1/13/2008 8:07:40 PM
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karlie
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From: Central California
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quote:
but he or she didn't say no to the act even though he or she had explained that they were not up it. Is that the same thing?
If someone didn't say no and willingly went along, no matter how uninterested, I don't see how it can be called rape.
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RE: Spousal Rape - 1/13/2008 11:14:58 PM
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maddog4god
Posts: 197
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Marital rape would be very difficult to prove actually in court unless there was undue physical damage. My daughter was raped by her boyfriend the same night they had had voluntarily sexual intercourse. Two seperate incidents. When we went to the hospital to do the rape kit, the doctor refused when he found out that they had been together consensually earlier in the same day.
His exact words to my very traumatized daughter were, "There's no point. He can just claim she likes it "rough"".
Rape is rape - if you say no and are forced to have sex - that is rape.
The truth is not all bad men face a judge, all men face God.
I learned this when my father was killed, not an easy truth to swallow, but true nonetheless.
As someone who has been raped, I can tell you that unless you have lived it - you can not understand what it does to your very being.
To deny one's spouse sex for a lifetime of marriage - that is a sin period. This is also something I have learned as God moves me glory to glory in healing me from a lifetime of abuse.
The truth is marital rape DOES exist and DOES happen. The truth is also that is most likely rarely prosecuted as a case that results in conviction.
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RE: Spousal Rape - 1/14/2008 6:41:07 AM
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DaveW
Posts: 4106
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From: MD suburbs of Washington DC
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quote:
Since scripture says your body is no longer your own, regarding the marriage bed, can there even BE such a thing as spousal rape, scripturally? Is it against the law to hit yourself, to break your own bones? No. It is against the law to commit suicide (or more likely to ATTEMPT suicide).
So if the argument that she is "flesh of my flesh" "no longer two but one flesh" "her body is now mine" is to hold any weight legally and be applied to rape, these other situations must also be treated the same. If it is ok for me to hold a knife to my own throat (shaving) it must be ok to hold a knife to her throat as well.
NOT.
If it is a crime to threaten the life of your wife it must also be a crime to rape her. Period.
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RE: Spousal Rape - 1/22/2008 4:11:16 PM
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Roberta_
Posts: 6992
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quote:
ORIGINAL: dianetavegia
Since scripture says your body is no longer your own, regarding the marriage bed, can there even BE such a thing as spousal rape, scripturally?
Yes it can and does happen!
I've known many women who were willing to have relations with their husbands only to have the husband get violent during the act.
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RE: Spousal Rape - 1/22/2008 11:22:10 PM
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Memaw.
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Personally I would question a mans' "Christianity" if he was violent with his wife.
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RE: Spousal Rape - 1/25/2008 1:43:50 PM
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Roberta_
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From: East Bay Area
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Memaw.
Personally I would question a mans' "Christianity" if he was violent with his wife.
I would too. However, men do make mistakes. Rape is a very serious mistake and should never go unpunished regardless of the person's marital status.
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RE: Spousal Rape - 1/27/2008 12:13:43 AM
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Memaw.
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Oh I absolutely agree!
Regardless whether it is stranger or spouse, rape is wrong and should be punished.
My stance remains though that I do not believe that a committed to Christ, truly saved man who is just as committed to his wife and his marriage can commit rape.
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"Freedom is never more than one generation away from extinction.
Every generation has to learn how to protect and defend it, or it's gone
and gone for a long, long time."
Ronald Reagan
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RE: Spousal Rape - 1/28/2008 7:51:21 PM
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4IMPersuaded
Posts: 400
Joined: 11/17/2007
From: Florence, KY
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quote:
ORIGINAL: dianetavegia
Since scripture says your body is no longer your own, regarding the marriage bed, can there even BE such a thing as spousal rape, scripturally?
1 Corinthians 7:3 Let the husband render to his wife the affection due her, and likewise also the wife to her husband. 4 The wife does not have authority over her own body, but the husband does. And likewise the husband does not have authority over his own body, but the wife does. 5 Do not deprive one another except with consent for a time, that you may give yourselves to fasting and prayer; and come together again so that Satan does not tempt you because of your lack of self-control.
Are you kidding? I had a dear Christian friend who was forced by her family to marry her husband after a pregnancy resulted from a date rape. He proceeded to tie her up daily and rape and humiliate her almost daily for nine years. Three children later, she stayed in the marriage until he brought home an STD and therefore she knew he had been unfaithful.
Any scriptural reference regarding marriage is two part. The Bible never admonishes a wife to endure abuse because she is married. Elastic is correct-- rape is not about sex, it is about power and humiliation. As Christians we are irresponsible if we counsel women to endure sexual or any other abuse because the Bible says their bodies are no longer their own. The very idea makes me nauseated. How do we ask people to join us as Christians if we hold a belief like that?
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RE: Spousal Rape - 1/29/2008 7:52:57 AM
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all_things_new
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My husband's not even a Christian and he wouldn't think of such a thing. However hypothetically, if he did it once, I wouldn't press charges or go have a rape kit form performed. I wouldn't be as traumatized if it was a stranger, so no I wouldn't view it in the 'classical' sense. I would feel more hurt and betrayed than anything else. Having said that, if he made a habit of it, I'd leave him!
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RE: Spousal Rape - 1/29/2008 11:54:16 AM
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4IMPersuaded
Posts: 400
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From: Florence, KY
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quote:
ORIGINAL: all_things_new
My husband's not even a Christian and he wouldn't think of such a thing. However hypothetically, if he did it once, I wouldn't press charges or go have a rape kit form performed. I wouldn't be as traumatized if it was a stranger, so no I wouldn't view it in the 'classical' sense. I would feel more hurt and betrayed than anything else. Having said that, if he made a habit of it, I'd leave him!
I dunno-- I think the trauma would be worse. Something like that done by someone who is supposed to love you as he does his own body-- to care for you as Christ loves the church. I'm not sure I can return to this thread, folks. Whatever you call it, please don't ever tell a woman that it is her Christian duty to be abused. Consenting to sex when you don't feel like it because you love your partner is a totally different ball of wax. Rape is never acceptable regardless of your relationship to the perpetrator. I am actually concerned that damage may have been done to a sister because of this and that is also never acceptable.
Peace and prayers...
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RE: Spousal Rape - 1/30/2008 1:02:31 AM
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zamdad
Posts: 1700
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Okay, Idon't come into the marriage folder too often. I began reading through the responses to this thread and felt compelled to respond. For five years of my career as a probation officer I supervised a sex offender caseload. Ico-facilitated sex offender treatment, supervised offenders in the community and made sentencing recommendations to the court.
To answer the OP, rape, sexual abuse, Criminal Sexual Conduct should not be sentenced any less severely than an offender who attacks person not known to them. That being said, however, we are talking about two entirely different type of offenders. Someone who attacks strangers needs to be put away forever as this is preadtory conduct.
Those who abuse their partners are not necessarily predatory in nature. They are abusers, people who tend to dominate and control others they are in relationship with. Someone indicated a link between spousal rape and domestic violence. This link is more common than most believe. I attended a training in which the presenter highlighted the common characteristics between DV offenders and many sex offenders.
We had a couple attending our church for a while. Suddenly they quit coming. Shortly thereafter, the man returned without his wife. He revealed to me that he had been arrested for sexually assaulting his wife. He explained his side of the story. I never got to hear hers. But, being a trained listener to sex offenders, his side of the story left too many questions, most of which he was unable to answer directly. He was eventually convicted and had to spend a few months in jail and now has to do sex offender treatment in the community. It has become clear to me that he is the type of man who likes to control his environment as he has shut me and some other leaders out and has brought people into his life that will listen to his side, take pity on him and be supportive of him while denouncing those who don't seem to believe him.
It's an interesting topic, but there are many things to consider.
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RE: Spousal Rape - 1/30/2008 5:53:05 AM
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GeorgiaNerd
Posts: 197
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From: UGA... RIP UGA VI
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quote:
To deny one's spouse sex for a lifetime of marriage - that is a sin period.
Really? Even if both parties agree to this arrangement before the marriage? That saddens me.
Back to the topic. I have seen the effects of spousal rape in some of my friends, and think that the punishment should be equally severe as non-spousal rape. The emotional damage caused is just as great if not greater sometimes.
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