RE: Heresy about Trinity? (Full Version)

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cognitivemagic -> RE: Heresy about Trinity? (3/27/2008 8:05:17 PM)

quote:

However, these creeds are not cannon! The truth in these creeds is not true simply because the creed declares it to be so.


Yes, the Nicene Creed is canon because the same people who gave us the councils that decreed the validity of it's assertions also decreed that certain books were to be included as a "rule", in opposition to other extant writings of the time. These 27 books we now call the "New Testament". This "canon" of New Testament writings was collected and certified approximately 300 years after the death of Jesus Christ. Therefore, the coextensive nature of the declaration of the Creed alongside the collection and declaration of the New Testament canon should be sufficient, to the man of common sense, to demonstrate parallel (if not identical) authority. I am speaking in this way to the "sola" scripturites.

But it might be best to say that the Church, in passing on the Tradition, is more properly to be called the "authority".

quote:

Creeds offer no "unabiguous understanding" either


But this argument could be used against "scripture" as well. Someone might well say:

"Well, the presence of pseudopigraphical letters and Gnostic gospels of the first and second centuries proves that the validity of the New Testament is open to serious questions too."

Therefore, the presence of later and conflicting creedal statements doesn't diminish the validity of the Nicene formula; because, if the mere presence of these conflicting creeds were reason to reject all creedal statements from being a "canon" altogether, then the same criticism could be said about the New Testament. And that leaves you on the horns of a major dilemma.

quote:

Scritpure defines what scripture teaches about God, and what it doesn't. The various creeds of the church are no protection against all heresy. Nor are they absolutely necessary to reject the false teaching they do address. There is nothing in any creed that is true but cannot be proven from scripture.


Interestingly, this statement is itself a "creed"; and ironically, your statements are nowhere to be found in scripture.

But, scripture isn't a "dictionary" of God. It provides "terms", to be sure; but scripture doesn't spend any time going into great detail as to what those terms mean. But the Nicene Creed does; the post-Apostolic Fathers of the Church do.

I would even say that most exegesis done in today's New Testament commentaries are simply reiterations of what some Father of the Church had already stated within the first 1000 years of her history.

And, needless to say, you and I have drank heavily from the fount of the post-New Testament witnesses, whether you care to recognize/admit that or not. Besides, who do you think had preserved the New Testament text's after the Apostles/New Testament writers had died?

I'm sorry, but a 1400 year stretch between the death of the last remaining New Testament writer and the Protestant Reformers of Europe does not speak volumes for the veracity of the Reformation; but it does for the Church that has preserved the Christian Tradition in these intervening years before Luther, Zwingli, Knox and Calvin came along.

But lets look at your own procedure:

quote:

First, let us start with the relevant definitions of manifest and manifesation:
Manifest:
1. readily perceived by the eye or the understanding; evident; obvious; apparent; plain: a manifest error.
3. to make clear or evident to the eye or the understanding; show plainly: He manifested his approval with a hearty laugh.
manifestation
1. an act of manifesting.
2. the state of being manifested.
3. outward or perceptible indication; materialization:


And so, you yourself have appealed to a "source" outside the New Testament to make your case; namely a dictionary. So, you have proven beyond a shadow of a doubt that what I've said above is true.

Therefore, it would be wise to rethink your position here.



jachinboaz -> RE: Heresy about Trinity? (4/1/2008 12:58:20 AM)

The biggest deception in mankind I believe, is the trinity doctrine. Why? Because half the world believes in trinity. Catholic believe in a trinity and they do not even preach out of the King James Version. They use another of their own bibles and they are getting the foundation right????

You think the devil is gonna let many see a revelation about God and not fight against it? The hardest belief is believing that Jesus is the Father manifested in the flesh. Only by the Holy Ghost can anyone say that Jesus is the Father and believe it.

I grew up trinity and did not even have to seek that fake revelation. It came natural. Why? because it is man made doctrine. This trinity doctrine will bring more souls to hell than anything else. Don't get me wrong, I do not hate the people who are trinity, I hate the doctrine.

12 There is a way which seemeth right unto a man, but the end thereof are the ways of death.

I want to show you that there is really no trinity God in heaven. Take a look at Acts 7:55 But he, being full of the Holy Ghost, looked up stedfastly into heaven, and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing on the right hand of God,

In that verse it looks like a trinity God up there, Jesus standing on the right hand of God. My question is, if God is a spirit and is omni present, He is everywhere to the point that even the heavens cannot contain Him, how is Jesus standing at His right hand? Where is His right hand? Where is His left hand? Where is His
back? Where is His feet? Or is there a deeper revelation there? To stand at the right hand is to represent the power and authority of God. Which all power was given to Jesus after His resurrection.

Another one is Genesis 1:26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth. It sounds like a trinity God there, doesn't it? Now take a look at the next verse: So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.

What happened? The first verse it looked like He was referring to more gods up there than just Him alone and the next verse it looked like they were created in His image alone? Why didn't it say: So God created man in their own image, in the image of God created they him; male and female created they them. Why did God say Let us make man in our image? He was referring to His attributes. Love Joy Peace etc,etc...

And one of the scribes came, and having heard them reasoning together, and perceiving that he had answered them well, asked him, Which is the first commandment of all?
And Jesus answered him, The first of all the commandments is, Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord:

How hard is it to understand that 1 means 1? 1 does not mean 3, it means 1.

Take a look at another verse: For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one. And there are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one.

So in the first verse it says these three are one. And the next verse it says these three agree in one. If there are actually three persons in heaven, why did it not say: For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three agree in one?

John 8:24 I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins.
25 Then said they unto him, Who art thou? And Jesus saith unto them, Even the same that I said unto you from the beginning.

I have many things to say and to judge of you: but he that sent me is true; and I speak to the world those things which I have heard of him.
They understood not that he spake to them of the Father.

Even though Jesus told them that He is the Father they still did not understand. So it is today, people have to bring in a trinity God to understand the Godhead.

col 2:8-9 Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.

9 For in him dwelleth all the fullness of the Godhead bodily.

Did it say one third of the Godhead dwell in Jesus, bodily? No! Two thirds? No! It said ALL the fullness of the Godhead dwell in Jesus, bodily!

If all the fullness of the Godhead dwell in Jesus, bodily, does that make the Father powerless? No! because He is the Father.

10 Ye are my witnesses, saith the LORD, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me. I, even I, am the LORD; and beside me there is no saviour.

I have declared, and have saved, and I have showed, when there was no strange god among you: therefore ye are my witnesses, saith the LORD, that I am God.

People say that there is an eternal Son of God up in heaven. I have looked and found no scripture in the Bible stating that claim anywhere. Actually I have found the exact opposite.

Romans 1:4 And declared to be the Son of God with power, according to the spirit of holiness, by the resurrection from the dead:

According to that verse, Jesus was not even declared to be the Son of God until He was resurrected from the dead. Why wasn't He declared to be the Son of God before that?

28 Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.

That verse is actually saying that the Holy Ghost had purchased us with His own blood.

Here is a scripture that everyone is very familiar with.

Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:

Now we know that Father, Son,and Holy Ghost are not names. They are titles. What is the name of the Father?

What is the name of the Son?

What is the name of the Holy Ghost? Someone says (I know the name of the Son, Jesus) Another one says (I know the name of the Father, Yahweh or Jehovah).

What did Peter say to baptize us with?

Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Did Peter say Jehovah or Yahweh? No, Everyone from there on says to baptize in the name of the Lord Jesus.



yosemite371 -> RE: Heresy about Trinity? (4/1/2008 6:00:01 PM)

In your metaphor, the flesh alone doesn't make a complete person (though humanists might disagree). Same with sould & spirit. They are different aspects of what constitute a person, but alone, none of the three can be said to be a person. jimbofletch this is what u said on the second post of this thread. i beleive that the same is to be said of trinity. god can only be one with multiple titles. jachinboaz man that was a good post. i liked it very much. had i not been so hasty with wanting to post i would have let that one stand. that was good food for thought and a message to live by. thnx yo



cognitivemagic -> RE: Heresy about Trinity? (4/1/2008 9:20:57 PM)

quote:

The biggest deception in mankind I believe, is the trinity doctrine.


Well, oh sagely one, I suppose you will inform us of the truth of which Christian history has sorely been mistaken about, heh?

quote:

I grew up trinity and did not even have to seek that fake revelation. It came natural. Why? because it is man made doctrine. This trinity doctrine will bring more souls to hell than anything else. Don't get me wrong, I do not hate the people who are trinity, I hate the doctrine.


Seeing, hearing and tasting come natural too. Do you then disbelieve that you exist and have perceptions of a world around you? Breathing comes natural? Are you in disbelief of oxygen as well?

If you must come to hate things that are "natural" to you, then surely you must hate life!!

quote:

Take a look at another verse: For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one. And there are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one.

So in the first verse it says these three are one. And the next verse it says these three agree in one. If there are actually three persons in heaven, why did it not say: For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three agree in one?

Did it say one third of the Godhead dwell in Jesus, bodily? No! Two thirds? No! It said ALL the fullness of the Godhead dwell in Jesus, bodily!

If all the fullness of the Godhead dwell in Jesus, bodily, does that make the Father powerless? No! because He is the Father.


You have massively confused "person" with "substance/essence" in your analysis. The Father and Son are "one" in essence; not one in "person".

"For the Son has all the things of the Father; but He is not Father: and again, all the things of the Son are to be observed in the Father, but He is not the Son"

(St. Gregory of Nyssa "Against Eunomios" Bk. 1 Sec. 38)

A father cannot be both a father in himself and a son to himself; that's absurd!! That's like saying that a chicken existed because it laid it's own egg. It makes no sense.

Furthermore, according to your doctrine, the Son had become "begotten" at some point (i.e. during His birth or His baptism); this must be the point when God switched His role as Father in order to play the role of Son, or what have you.

However, if the Son was not a son from all eternity, then there was a point at which the Father could not be properly said to be a father. For, before God created anything, He was neither Father, Son nor Holy Spirit; rather He must have been some indivisible monad, according to the logic of your position.

Because, of whom could he have been a father to? Not to Himself, as I mentioned above. Not to "creation", for that is finite. So what, then?

Answer: nothing

Father and Son are either distinct persons in an eternal relationship with one another (i.e. Trinitarian doctrine); or else God is schizophrenic or multiple personality disordered (i.e. "oneness" doctrine).

I don't think your rejection of the Holy Trinity is based merely upon pure speculative analysis. Perhaps you've experienced some hurt or pain in the churches you knew growing up, and have transferred hostilities that originated there onto God Himself. I don't know for sure.

But I do know that I've never met someone with such an axe to grind against Trinitarian theology. I appreciate your candor; however, it might do you some good to read a little bit of Church history before you forever make up your mind about such an important doctrine. At least consider the reasons why the Church had sided as they did against Sabellius and his followers.

God bless.



yosemite371 -> RE: Heresy about Trinity? (4/1/2008 10:06:27 PM)

quote:

A father cannot be both a father in himself and a son to himself; that's absurd!! That's like saying that a chicken existed because it laid it's own egg. It makes no sense
someone help me out here. didnt god say he would make a mockery of mans intellegence? scitzo man u try to phsico analize too much cause if he crazy i am too. he gave u sound scripture in which u tip toed around. maybe your intelegence outweighs your since.LOL thnx yo But I do know that I've never met someone with such an axe to grind against Trinitarian theology. I appreciate your candor; however, it might do you some good to read a little bit of Church history before you forever make up your mind about such an important doctrine. At least consider the reasons why the Church had sided as they did against Sabellius and his followers. ive read church history and i chose oneness. have u ever been to a oneness church on a real good day? lotta good ole axe grinding going on!LOL thnx yo



Ps103 -> RE: Heresy about Trinity? (4/1/2008 11:35:07 PM)

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J_Michael80 -> RE: Heresy about Trinity? (4/2/2008 12:17:58 AM)

Hello Psalms 103, nice to meet you. I liked your previous avator much better, I don't know why you changed it. Anyways, what is a Trinitarian?



Ezra -> RE: Heresy about Trinity? (4/2/2008 2:08:41 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: faithfulservant1
Anyways, what is a Trinitarian?


With all the threads on the Holy Trinity it is rather amazing that anyone would ask such a question.

A Trinitarian is one who rightly believes that God exists as three Divine Persons -- the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit.

You will not find the word "Trinity" in the Bible but you will find the truth clearly revealed.

Unitarians, on the other hand, reject this doctrine.



J_Michael80 -> RE: Heresy about Trinity? (4/2/2008 8:44:04 AM)

I acknowledge and believe in the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost. But I believe our Lord is One God. God revealed to us who He was, so lets leave it at that.

God said to Moses, "I AM WHO I AM"; and He said, "Thus you shall say to the sons of Israel, 'I AM has sent me to you.'" (Exodus 3:14)



J_Michael80 -> RE: Heresy about Trinity? (4/2/2008 2:32:09 PM)

quote:

original: Ezra

A Trinitarian is one who rightly believes that God exists as Three Divine Persons -- the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit.


I have a question for those so-called Trinitarians. Where in the bible does it say that God is "Three Divine Persons?"

I know Jesus was God who became Flesh. But the Father and Holy Spirit are not persons. So how do you come up with "Three Divine Persons?"



cognitivemagic -> RE: Heresy about Trinity? (4/15/2008 10:16:28 PM)

quote:

I have a question for those so-called Trinitarians. Where in the bible does it say that God is "Three Divine Persons?"

I know Jesus was God who became Flesh. But the Father and Holy Spirit are not persons. So how do you come up with "Three Divine Persons?"


A "person" is someone who can think, will and act. Since the Father can "think, will and act", He is a Person. The same is true of the Son and the Holy Spirit.

The distinction of Persons within the Godhead are delineated, not merely by three centers that "think, will and act", but how each is related to the Father. So that by being "Father", God naturally has a "Son". And if you can accept 2 Divine Persons in the Godhead, yet still believe in 1 God, then what problem should there be if there is a third Person, the Holy Spirit?

However, the Holy Trinity is not a philosophic doctrine that is deducible like a triangle or triangularity. Rather, this is how God has revealed Himself to us.

The Bible doesn't say that the Apostles are "persons". Yet, when you read what the scripture says, it's plain that they "think, will and act". Therefore, you conclude that they are "persons". It's not necessary to call them such because they act like such.

Likewise, with God.

Meditate on 1 John 2:23. Consider why it's saying what it's saying. When it sinks in, you will see that there must be two eternal Persons in the Godhead and why I said what I said in my last post.



abu_khomar -> RE: Heresy about Trinity? (4/16/2008 9:41:00 AM)

is God a person?



bob97 -> RE: Heresy about Trinity? (4/16/2008 10:27:26 AM)

God has a personality but I can’t think of Him as a person. [8|]

Bob



abu_khomar -> RE: Heresy about Trinity? (4/16/2008 2:49:36 PM)

just depends on how u define person then.



cognitivemagic -> RE: Heresy about Trinity? (4/18/2008 6:19:26 PM)

quote:

God has a personality but I can’t think of Him as a person


Neither can I. I think of God as Tri-Personal; or Trinitarian, if you will.

God is also Triune; which underscores both the single essence of the Godhead, yet delineates the Tri-Personal subsistence of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit as the One, True God.

God is not merely a Person; rather He is three Persons.

So, there is one what (i.e. God) and three who's (i.e. Persons).



Ezra -> RE: Heresy about Trinity? (4/19/2008 5:43:07 PM)

quote:

is God a person?


This has already been answered, but to reiterate, God is THREE Persons, yet ONE God.

See the definition of "person" below, which is quite acceptable and applicable to the Godhead.

The Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit are distinct Persons, yet one God. No one can "explain" this or "comprehend" God, but that does not make this less true. It is simply a mystery to be accepted by faith.

quote:

Philosophers have expounded on every dimension — from the purely analytical to the metaphysical — in discourses on personhood. Conceptually, a person is defined by the characteristics of reasoning, consciousness, and persistent personal identity.

The English philosopher John Locke defined a person as "a thinking intelligent Being, that has reason and reflection, and can consider it self as it self, the same thinking thing in different times and places; which it does only by that consciousness, which is inseparable from thinking, and as it seems to me essential to it" (Essay on Humane Understanding, Book 2, Chapter 27, Section 9).



prophet -> RE: Heresy about Trinity? (4/21/2008 11:40:42 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: faithfulservant1

quote:

original: Ezra

A Trinitarian is one who rightly believes that God exists as Three Divine Persons -- the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit.


I have a question for those so-called Trinitarians. Where in the bible does it say that God is "Three Divine Persons?"

I know Jesus was God who became Flesh. But the Father and Holy Spirit are not persons. So how do you come up with "Three Divine Persons?"



quote:

Philosophers have expounded on every dimension — from the purely analytical to the metaphysical — in discourses on personhood. Conceptually, a person is defined by the characteristics of reasoning, consciousness, and persistent personal identity.

The English philosopher John Locke defined a person as "a thinking intelligent Being, that has reason and reflection, and can consider it self as it self, the same thinking thing in different times and places; which it does only by that consciousness, which is inseparable from thinking, and as it seems to me essential to it" (Essay on Humane Understanding, Book 2, Chapter 27, Section 9).


How many divine persons ia mentioned in separation in the following?

Isaiah 48

16 Come ye near unto me, hear ye this; I have not spoken in secret from the beginning; from the time that it was, there am I: and now the Lord GOD, and his Spirit, hath sent me. 17 Thus saith the LORD, thy Redeemer, the Holy One of Israel; I am the LORD thy God which teacheth thee to profit, which leadeth thee by the way that thou shouldest go.

Shalom



Ezra -> RE: Heresy about Trinity? (4/22/2008 12:17:52 AM)

quote:

How many divine persons ia mentioned in separation in the following?

Isaiah 48

16 Come ye near unto me, hear ye this; I have not spoken in secret from the beginning; from the time that it was, there am I: and now (1) the Lord GOD, and (2) his Spirit, hath sent (3) me. 17 Thus saith the LORD, thy Redeemer, the Holy One of Israel; I am the LORD thy God which teacheth thee to profit, which leadeth thee by the way that thou shouldest go.

Shalom


This is an excellent passage from the OT to show the three Persons in the Godhead. "The LORD God" is the Father. "His Spirit" is the Holy Spirit. "Me" is the eternal Word (who had not spoken in secret from the beginning) who became Jesus of Nazareth.

Therefore, Christ is also "the LORD, thy Redeemer" as well as "the Holy One of Israel". He then says that He is "the LORD thy God".

When the apostle Thomas beheld the resurrected Savior, he being a Jew and well versed in the Scriptures, called Jesus "My LORD, and my God". This would be in keeping with what is revealed here.



prophet -> RE: Heresy about Trinity? (4/22/2008 1:22:15 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ezra


This is an excellent passage from the OT to show the three Persons in the Godhead. "The LORD God" is the Father. "His Spirit" is the Holy Spirit. "Me" is the eternal Word (who had not spoken in secret from the beginning) who became Jesus of Nazareth.

Therefore, Christ is also "the LORD, thy Redeemer" as well as "the Holy One of Israel". He then says that He is "the LORD thy God".

When the apostle Thomas beheld the resurrected Savior, he being a Jew and well versed in the Scriptures, called Jesus "My LORD, and my God". This would be in keeping with what is revealed here.


Ezra

When i was doing research on the triune God years back, much like our first poster here, i had lotsa problems cos most passages were found in the Nt which many queired about the authencity of these passages as addons by trnitatrians.

However, the challenge was that Paul had no NT. he depended on the Tanakh for his validating of what he writes and reads. So the challenge to look for passages especially where ALL 3 were mentioned at the same time led me to Isaiah 48. i believe its the leading of the Lord as i have never seen this particular passage in this manner.

Anyone else who has OT passages which shows the triune God together?

Thanks and Shalom to all.



Ezra -> RE: Heresy about Trinity? (4/22/2008 1:50:22 AM)

quote:

Anyone else who has OT passages which shows the triune God together?


prophet:

Another passage from Isaiah (Isa. 44:6) shows the Father and the Son as both being "the first and the last", which corresponds to Rev. 1:8,11,17,18, where the Almighty and Christ say the same words. The Father is "Alpha and Omega" and so is the Son.

Thus saith the LORD [YHVH] the King of Israel AND His Redeemer, the LORD of Hosts: I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God.



prophet -> RE: Heresy about Trinity? (4/22/2008 1:55:44 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ezra

quote:

Anyone else who has OT passages which shows the triune God together?


prophet:

Another passage from Isaiah (Isa. 44:6) shows the Father and the Son as both being "the first and the last", which corresponds to Rev. 1:8,11,17,18, where the Almighty and Christ say the same words. The Father is "Alpha and Omega" and so is the Son.

Thus saith the LORD [YHVH] the King of Israel AND His Redeemer, the LORD of Hosts: I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God.


Ezra
Thanks



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