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RE: Mormonism? - 1/8/2008 4:12:08 PM
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harvesthoney
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quote:
ORIGINAL: kmangel
quote:
ORIGINAL: harvesthoney
LDS doctrine says God, Jesus, and the Holy Ghost are three separate beings. We worship God as the Father, and Jesus Christ as the Savior and Redeemer of the world. So, we worship both.
You say you worship both Jesus and Heavenly Father as separate and distinct beings. Would you consider that you have a personal relationship with Jesus? Do you pray to Him directly?
I pray to Hevenly Father in the name of Jesus Christ. HF is the Creator of my spirit and Jesus is the Redeemer of my flesh. I am indebted to both.
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RE: Mormonism? - 1/8/2008 4:15:47 PM
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harvesthoney
Posts: 247
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Ephesians4_32
quote:
ORIGINAL: harvesthoney
quote:
ORIGINAL: Ephesians4_32
Do you agree or disagree with Joseph Smith and Apostle Bruce R. McConkie when they claim that God is not a spirit essence who is incorporeal, uncreated, immaterial, and three-in-one?
Is Christendom apostate and was a restoration of the gospel necessary?
"I testify that God lives and that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that it was under his direction that the gospel of Jesus Christ has been restored in this dispensation for the last time. I so testify to these truths in the name of Jesus Christ. Amen." - Eldred G. Smith, “Who Is Jesus?,” Ensign, May 1976, 67
Yes and Yes.
Then either McConkie and Bickmore were not just stating opinions or you agree with their opinions. They both disagree with the Christianity I follow, so why would you criticize me for disagreeing with the religion they follow? Why would you say to me, "Religion bashing is just wrong?"
http://forums.christianity.com/fb.aspx?m=2966181
Then I apologize for the accusation. You are not religion bashing....You simply disagree with the LDS church and believe it to be wrong.
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RE: Mormonism? - 1/8/2008 4:22:16 PM
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JimboFletch
Posts: 6608
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quote:
ORIGINAL: harvesthoney
quote:
ORIGINAL: JimboFletch
quote:
ORIGINAL: harvesthoney
Okay, I agree with God.
Sadly, the question is, Which God, which Jesus?
The ones mentioned it the KJV Bible.
Why KJV? Because it sounds like the BOM (which was written a couple of centuries after Elizabethan English was no longer spoken)? How about the NASB, ESV, NIV?
Where in the KJV do you find Jesus a created being, rather than God incarnate? Where to you find a transcendent God who attains godhood, then creates the earth as his just reward? Where do you find a Jesus who relegates women to such a position that their very resurrection depends on the whims of a husband?
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RE: Mormonism? - 1/8/2008 4:28:35 PM
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Ephesians4_32
Posts: 1686
Joined: 4/30/2005
From: The Crossroads of America
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quote:
ORIGINAL: harvesthoney
quote:
ORIGINAL: Ephesians4_32
quote:
ORIGINAL: harvesthoney
quote:
ORIGINAL: Ephesians4_32
Do you agree or disagree with Joseph Smith and Apostle Bruce R. McConkie when they claim that God is not a spirit essence who is incorporeal, uncreated, immaterial, and three-in-one?
Is Christendom apostate and was a restoration of the gospel necessary?
"I testify that God lives and that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that it was under his direction that the gospel of Jesus Christ has been restored in this dispensation for the last time. I so testify to these truths in the name of Jesus Christ. Amen." - Eldred G. Smith, “Who Is Jesus?,” Ensign, May 1976, 67
Yes and Yes.
Then either McConkie and Bickmore were not just stating opinions or you agree with their opinions. They both disagree with the Christianity I follow, so why would you criticize me for disagreeing with the religion they follow? Why would you say to me, "Religion bashing is just wrong?"
http://forums.christianity.com/fb.aspx?m=2966181
Then I apologize for the accusation. You are not religion bashing....You simply disagree with the LDS church and believe it to be wrong.
Thank you.
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RE: Mormonism? - 1/8/2008 4:29:49 PM
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harvesthoney
Posts: 247
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quote:
ORIGINAL: mushhead
Living in Utah, I am familiar with the rejection of Mormon Doctrine by church members. They say that it contains error, or is innaccurate in places, but that is not the real reason; for in sixteen years of asking I have not found even one mormon who could point to a single error, inaccuracy, or misrepresentation of doctrine. The real problem is that while McConkie was attempting to provide a useful study tool for members; creating the mormon version of a topical bible had devastatingly unintended consequences. Spelling out mormon doctrines, and placing them side by side, revealed the contradictions. Groups that minister to mormons used McConkie's book to demonstrate how mormonism could not be true.
If you run into someone that says he or she disagrees with McConkie, or that McConkie was just expressing his opinions; ask for specific examples. As I said, not one person in over a decade and a half have offered up even one example. If someone actually does give and example, then read it and compare McConkie's description to official mormon doctrine. You can be certian that you will not find any discrepencies. If the person does not provide any examples, then offer to go through the book looking for discrepencies between McConkie's descriptions and official mormon theology. At the end of each entry, ask whether or not it is accurate, or if it is just an opinion. It won't take long before you both realize where the exercise is going.
Hi Mushhead,
You make a good point. The only McConkie I read is what was put in the Bible dictionary.
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RE: Mormonism? - 1/8/2008 4:35:03 PM
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Ephesians4_32
Posts: 1686
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quote:
ORIGINAL: harvesthoney
quote:
ORIGINAL: JimboFletch
quote:
ORIGINAL: harvesthoney
Okay, I agree with God.
Sadly, the question is, Which God, which Jesus?
The ones mentioned it the KJV Bible.
But the God mentioned in the Bible is not the same God that LDS worship.
God doesn't eternally progress, didn't create or pro-create Jesus, did create Satan, and doesn't teach that men must must be married to be in His eternal Presence. Those are just a few differences.
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RE: Mormonism? - 1/8/2008 4:49:41 PM
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harvesthoney
Posts: 247
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quote:
ORIGINAL: JimboFletch
Why KJV? Because it sounds like the BOM (which was written a couple of centuries after Elizabethan English was no longer spoken)? How about the NASB, ESV, NIV?
Why? Because the KJV was the version that was used at the time JS translated the BOM and... use the JST(Joseph Smith Translation) in the back of the LDS KJV. Ephesians4_32 can give you more information on this.
quote:
Where in the KJV do you find Jesus a created being, rather than God incarnate? Where to you find a transcendent God who attains godhood, then creates the earth as his just reward? Where do you find a Jesus who relegates women to such a position that their very resurrection depends on the whims of a husband?
"then creates the earth as his just reward?" Not LDS doctrine or I'm just not understanding the question.
"Where do you find a Jesus who relegates women to such a position that their very resurrection depends on the whims of a husband?" Not LDS doctrine.
My very resurrection is not dependant on the "whim" of my husband.
< Message edited by harvesthoney -- 1/8/2008 4:57:11 PM >
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RE: Mormonism? - 1/8/2008 4:51:08 PM
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harvesthoney
Posts: 247
Joined: 9/17/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Ephesians4_32
quote:
ORIGINAL: harvesthoney
quote:
ORIGINAL: JimboFletch
quote:
ORIGINAL: harvesthoney
Okay, I agree with God.
Sadly, the question is, Which God, which Jesus?
The ones mentioned it the KJV Bible.
But the God mentioned in the Bible is not the same God that LDS worship.
God doesn't eternally progress, didn't create or pro-create Jesus, did create Satan, and doesn't teach that men must must be married to be in His eternal Presence. Those are just a few differences.
OK
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RE: Mormonism? - 1/8/2008 5:04:34 PM
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JimboFletch
Posts: 6608
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quote:
ORIGINAL: harvesthoney
quote:
ORIGINAL: JimboFletch
Why KJV? Because it sounds like the BOM (which was written a couple of centuries after Elizabethan English was no longer spoken)? How about the NASB, ESV, NIV?
Why? Because the KJV was the version that was used at the time JS translated the BOM and... use the JST(Joseph Smith Translation) in the back of the LDS KJV. Ephesians4_32 can give you more information on this.
Sure, KJV was the MAIN version used by Christians back then - but it was translated in 1611. BOM was written in mid-19th century. The written & spoken American language then was closer to today's English than Elizabethan English was. The BOM was supposedly translated perfectly - but in a language JS thought sounded holy.
Find any book written during the same decade as the BOM and it will decidely not be in Elizabethan English.
Elizabethan English is not a holy means of speaking. It was simply the way people spoke when the version was translated. BOM was not translated the way Americans spoke in the mid-19th century.
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RE: Mormonism? - 1/8/2008 6:00:17 PM
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kmangel
Posts: 459
Joined: 4/12/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: harvesthoney
I pray to Hevenly Father in the name of Jesus Christ. HF is the Creator of my spirit and Jesus is the Redeemer of my flesh. I am indebted to both.
Would you ever pray to Jesus directly?
_____________________________
Heaven goes by favor. If it went by merit, you would stay out and your dog would go in.
--Mark Twain
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RE: Mormonism? - 1/8/2008 7:13:39 PM
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Eutychus
Posts: 1600
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: Dothan, AL
Status: online
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quote:
Jesus is the Redeemer of my flesh.
Can you explain that? It isn't a Christian doctrine.
_____________________________
Jesus answered and said to them, "This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent." -John 6:29
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RE: Mormonism? - 1/8/2008 9:09:21 PM
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Ephesians4_32
Posts: 1686
Joined: 4/30/2005
From: The Crossroads of America
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quote:
ORIGINAL: JimboFletch
Why KJV? Because it sounds like the BOM (which was written a couple of centuries after Elizabethan English was no longer spoken)? How about the NASB, ESV, NIV?
JimboFletch, what are you asking about the NASB, ESV, and NIV? If you meant to ask why LDS don't use them, I don't know the answer.
quote:
ORIGINAL: harvesthoney
Why? Because the KJV was the version that was used at the time JS translated the BOM and... use the JST(Joseph Smith Translation) in the back of the LDS KJV. Ephesians4_32 can give you more information on this.
I'm not sure what you're asking me. Can you clarify?
quote:
ORIGINAL: JimboFletch
Where in the KJV do you find Jesus a created being, rather than God incarnate? Where to you find a transcendent God who attains godhood, then creates the earth as his just reward?
In Mormonism, all beings(including humans) exist eternally as spirit matter. This spirit matter has to be organized for a creation to take place. Jesus Christ and Satan were offspring of Heavenly Father.
quote:
ORIGINAL: JimboFletch
Where do you find a Jesus who relegates women to such a position that their very resurrection depends on the whims of a husband?
quote:
ORIGINAL: harvesthoney
Not LDS doctrine or I'm just not understanding the question. My very resurrection is not dependant on the "whim" of my husband.
"If he does not call her up she would still resurrect, but not as his wife." - Sandra Tanner
http://www.utlm.org/onlineresources/resurrectwife.htm
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RE: Mormonism? - 1/9/2008 12:39:49 AM
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figmentPez
Posts: 2078
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From: TX
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quote:
ORIGINAL: harvesthoney
We have a different doctrinal opinion on the nature of God. Your doctrine says that God, Jesus, and the Holy Ghost are "three in one". So when you worship God you are also are worshipping Jesus.
You still don't understand Christian doctrine, do you? When Christians worship God, we are worshiping Jesus Christ. There is no "also". We worship Jesus Christ because He is God. The Father is God, the Son is God and the Holy Spirit is God, yet they are not three gods, but only One God. I am fully aware that Christians worship Jesus, but you fail to realize why Christians worship Jesus. Christians really and truly believe that only God is worthy of worship, because of who He is, and that the Son of God is eternally God, deserving that worship.
quote:
LDS doctrine says God, Jesus, and the Holy Ghost are three separate beings. We worship God as the Father, and Jesus Christ as the Savior and Redeemer of the world. So, we worship both.
So, if you worship both, and you believe that Jesus is not God, then why does God say to worship God alone? Why is it acceptable for you to worship this "jesus christ" you say is not God, when scripture says to worship God and no other. That's idolatry and polytheism.
_____________________________
I make this challenge to all Christians:
Read Daniel 7:13-14
And tell me: Who do you say that the Son of Man is?
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RE: Mormonism? - 1/9/2008 5:53:21 AM
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Ephesians4_32
Posts: 1686
Joined: 4/30/2005
From: The Crossroads of America
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quote:
ORIGINAL: figmentPez
quote:
ORIGINAL: harvesthoney
LDS doctrine says God, Jesus, and the Holy Ghost are three separate beings. We worship God as the Father, and Jesus Christ as the Savior and Redeemer of the world. So, we worship both.
So, if you worship both, and you believe that Jesus is not God, then why does God say to worship God alone? Why is it acceptable for you to worship this "jesus christ" you say is not God, when scripture says to worship God and no other. That's idolatry and polytheism.
Mormons believe that Jesus is the God, Jehovah, of the Old Testament. He is subordinate to the Father and I believe they teach that the Holy Ghost of Mormonism is subordinate to both Father and Son.
“. . . The sole object of worship, God the Eternal Father, stands supreme and alone, and it is in the name of the Only Begotten that we thus approach Him, as Christ taught always” (“Only One God to Worship,” Improvement Era, Apr. 1912, 484–85).
Elder Boyd K. Packer, a member of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles, explained: “The Father is the one true God. This thing is certain: no one will ever ascend above Him; no one will ever replace Him. Nor will anything ever change the relationship that we, His literal offspring, have with Him. He is Elohim, the Father. He is God. Of Him there is only one. We revere our Father and our God; we worship Him” (in Conference Report, Oct. 1984, 85; or Ensign, Nov. 1984, 69).
- Pearl of Great Price Student Manual
The Father is the supreme member of the Godhead
- Doctrines of the Gospel Student Manual, Chapter 3
Speaking of Jesus Christ:
“We can trust, worship, and even adore Him without any reservation! As the only Perfect Person to sojourn on this planet, there is none like Him!"
- Neal A. Maxwell, in Conference Report, Oct. 1981, 9; or Ensign, Nov. 1981, 8
Doctrines of the Gospel Student Manual, Chapter 4
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RE: Mormonism? - 1/9/2008 7:49:12 AM
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JimboFletch
Posts: 6608
Joined: 4/11/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Ephesians4_32
quote:
ORIGINAL: JimboFletch
Why KJV? Because it sounds like the BOM (which was written a couple of centuries after Elizabethan English was no longer spoken)? How about the NASB, ESV, NIV?
JimboFletch, what are you asking about the NASB, ESV, and NIV? If you meant to ask why LDS don't use them, I don't know the answer.
Dear Ephesians4_32,
That is why I was asking harvesthoney. It isn't necessary to answer questions I pose to her if you aren't sure. I was simply trying to make a point.
Sincerely,
JF
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RE: Mormonism? - 1/9/2008 6:04:32 PM
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harvesthoney
Posts: 247
Joined: 9/17/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: JimboFletch
quote:
ORIGINAL: harvesthoney
quote:
ORIGINAL: JimboFletch
Why KJV? Because it sounds like the BOM (which was written a couple of centuries after Elizabethan English was no longer spoken)? How about the NASB, ESV, NIV?
Why? Because the KJV was the version that was used at the time JS translated the BOM and... use the JST(Joseph Smith Translation) in the back of the LDS KJV. Ephesians4_32 can give you more information on this.
Sure, KJV was the MAIN version used by Christians back then - but it was translated in 1611. BOM was written in mid-19th century. The written & spoken American language then was closer to today's English than Elizabethan English was. The BOM was supposedly translated perfectly - but in a language JS thought sounded holy.
Find any book written during the same decade as the BOM and it will decidely not be in Elizabethan English.
Elizabethan English is not a holy means of speaking. It was simply the way people spoke when the version was translated. BOM was not translated the way Americans spoke in the mid-19th century.
Ok...I don't have a problem with the translation or language, obviously you do.
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RE: Mormonism? - 1/9/2008 6:05:50 PM
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harvesthoney
Posts: 247
Joined: 9/17/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: kmangel
quote:
ORIGINAL: harvesthoney
I pray to Hevenly Father in the name of Jesus Christ. HF is the Creator of my spirit and Jesus is the Redeemer of my flesh. I am indebted to both.
Would you ever pray to Jesus directly?
Heavenly Father is whom I pray to.
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RE: Mormonism? - 1/9/2008 6:49:44 PM
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harvesthoney
Posts: 247
Joined: 9/17/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Eutychus
quote:
Jesus is the Redeemer of my flesh.
Can you explain that? It isn't a Christian doctrine.
Maybe a bad choice of words.
1 Cor 15 21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.
22 For as in Adam all die, even so in christ shall all be make alive.
I take this t mean that my body(flesh) will one day be resurrected.
I guess I should have said: Jesus is the Redeemer of my soul and through Him I will one day be resurrected.
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RE: Mormonism? - 1/9/2008 6:54:09 PM
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harvesthoney
Posts: 247
Joined: 9/17/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Ephesians4_32
quote:
ORIGINAL: harvesthoney
Why? Because the KJV was the version that was used at the time JS translated the BOM and... use the JST(Joseph Smith Translation) in the back of the LDS KJV. Ephesians4_32 can give you more information on this.
I'm not sure what you're asking me. Can you clarify?
Ephesians4_32
I put your name in bold print hoping you could explain the JST to JimboFletch. Eventhough we disagree on this topic you explain things very well.
< Message edited by harvesthoney -- 1/9/2008 7:09:23 PM >
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RE: Mormonism? - 1/9/2008 6:59:14 PM
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harvesthoney
Posts: 247
Joined: 9/17/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: figmentPez
quote:
ORIGINAL: harvesthoney
We have a different doctrinal opinion on the nature of God. Your doctrine says that God, Jesus, and the Holy Ghost are "three in one". So when you worship God you are also are worshipping Jesus.
You still don't understand Christian doctrine, do you? When Christians worship God, we are worshiping Jesus Christ. There is no "also". We worship Jesus Christ because He is God. The Father is God, the Son is God and the Holy Spirit is God, yet they are not three gods, but only One God. I am fully aware that Christians worship Jesus, but you fail to realize why Christians worship Jesus. Christians really and truly believe that only God is worthy of worship, because of who He is, and that the Son of God is eternally God, deserving that worship.
Believe it or not I do understand what you believe. I just happen to believe differently.
quote:
quote:
LDS doctrine says God, Jesus, and the Holy Ghost are three separate beings. We worship God as the Father, and Jesus Christ as the Savior and Redeemer of the world. So, we worship both.
So, if you worship both, and you believe that Jesus is not God, then why does God say to worship God alone? Why is it acceptable for you to worship this "jesus christ" you say is not God, when scripture says to worship God and no other. That's idolatry and polytheism.
ibid
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RE: Mormonism? - 1/9/2008 7:03:57 PM
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harvesthoney
Posts: 247
Joined: 9/17/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Ephesians4_32
"If he does not call her up she would still resurrect, but not as his wife." - Sandra Tanner
http://www.utlm.org/onlineresources/resurrectwife.htm
Sandra Tanner?  Oh puleese.. And I was beginning to really respect you.
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RE: Mormonism? - 1/9/2008 8:02:09 PM
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Ephesians4_32
Posts: 1686
Joined: 4/30/2005
From: The Crossroads of America
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: harvesthoney
Ephesians4_32
I put your name in bold print hoping you could explain the JST to JimboFletch. Eventhough we disagree on this topic you explain things very well.
Okay. Thank you for the compliment. JimboFletch, the JST (short for Joseph Smith Translation) is a Bible published by the former Reorganized Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, now known as the Community of Christ. It's actual title is Holy Scriptures Inspired Version.
It starts out like this:
And it came to pass that the Lord spake unto Moses, saying, Behold, I reveal unto you concerning this heaven and this earth; write the words which I speak.
That's Genesis 1:1 in the Inspired Version.
1 In the beginning was the gospel preached through the Son. And the gospel was the word, and the word was with the Son, and the Son was with God, and the Son was of God.
That's John 1:1 in the Inspired Version.
"The remaining changed verses may be seen in The Holy Scriptures: Inspired Version (referred to hereafter as Inspired Version). 2 Although some of the JST changes were grammatical in nature, most of them clarify doctrinal understanding and restore significant teachings." - W. Jeffrey Marsh, Prophetic Enlightenment on the Sermon on the Mount, Ensign, Jan. 1999.
Robert J. Matthews 03329_000_013 Q&A: Questions and Answers New Era Apr. 1977 46–47 “Why don’t we use the Inspired Version of the Bible in the Church? But when these sources of latter-day revelation do not provide significant information which is available in the Inspired Version, then this version may be used.” These expressions from the editorial certainly permit members of the Church to use the translation in writing and in personal study.
Joseph Smith also used an 1828 edition of the KJV to prepare an inspired version of the Bible. President J. Reuben Clark lists the Joseph Smith Translation (JST) as one reason the Church uses the KJV: “For our Church membership, the Authorized Version is to be followed in preference to others because the Inspired Version by the Prophet Joseph Smith [the Joseph Smith Translation] agrees with the Authorized Version in those essential particulars where other versions vary.” (Why the ... - Ensign, June 1987
The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints didn't use it in place of the KJV when I was a member because it had fallen into apostate hands (RLDS). These "apostates" first published it in 1867. It's online at CenterPlace.org.
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RE: Mormonism? - 1/9/2008 8:08:06 PM
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kmangel
Posts: 459
Joined: 4/12/2005
Status: offline
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Harvesthoney,
How does one worship someone (Jesus) but not pray to Him? Isn't prayer a part of worship?
_____________________________
Heaven goes by favor. If it went by merit, you would stay out and your dog would go in.
--Mark Twain
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RE: Mormonism? - 1/9/2008 8:21:23 PM
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Eutychus
Posts: 1600
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: Dothan, AL
Status: online
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quote:
The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints didn't use it in place of the KJV when I was a member because it had fallen into apostate hands (RLDS). These "apostates" first published it in 1867. It's online at CenterPlace.org
I don't think the question was really about any translation of the Bible, but about the Book of Mormon (BOM). I have no idea how the BOM reads today, but when I read some from one many years ago, it was clearly written in the same language style as the KJV (Elizabethan English).
In other words, it makes no sense for the Book of Mormon to be written in the same language style as the King James Bible unless it was the attempt of a fake trying make his fiction sound holy.
If it were a perfect translation from its mystical language into modern American (at the time), it would not sound like the KJV. The claim of Mormons I've met is that the BOM was that perfect translation, despite it being in a version of English centuries out of use. The BOM in Elizabethan English is contradictory to the claim.
But regarding that one phrase from the JST, "Son was of God," it is a huge red flag. It takes very little formal training in Greek to know that the phrase is only correctly translated "was God." The Jehovah's Witnesses tinkered with the same verse to change Jesus into their false teaching about Him.
To quote member "earthless" in another thread about another heretic, "Ultimately, faith is only as valid as its object." When a group changes the nature and character of the One who defines Christianity, they cease to be Christian, no matter how big a PR machine they have to try to convince the true Church otherwise.
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