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RE: A question about OT prophets versus NT prophets - 12/20/2007 8:11:04 AM
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earthless
Posts: 6274
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: where pigeons are wearing sweaters....
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Hawkins,
Any so called Prophet will have to stand or fall in light of Scripture.
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Probing Today's Religious Movements | Promoting Doctrinal Discernment & Critical Thinking | Providing Reasons for Christian Faith & Ethics
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RE: A question about OT prophets versus NT prophets - 1/11/2008 7:49:37 PM
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cybrjewls
Posts: 1479
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Greetings Black Sabbath! Please notice the Teaching of Jesus regarding The Kingdom of God:
Matthew 11
All the Prophets of the Law prophesied until John the Baptist, the Elijah to come
It is also written: The one who is least in the Kingdom of God is greater than the greatest Old testament Prophet
1 Corinthians 14:29 Church order in New Testament prophecy 1 Corinthians 14
We see that the ministry of prophecy has advanced with the Teaching of repentance about The Kingdom of God with order:
33For God is not a God of disorder but of peace.
The Kingdom teaching is that everyone will give account for every word:
Every word in The Kingdom of God to be accountable to God
Therefore the Law of Moses is fulfilled in Christ that those who are greater than prophets will:
Presumptive Speaking
And anyone who speaks should speak as though they are speaking the very words of God as it is written:
1 Peter 3:11 anyone should speak like this
These are Teachings for those of the kingdom of God, his chosen People the Body of Christ.
We are all to come in The Name of Jesus and ask for things in His Name, therefore, we are held to the Kingdom Teaching of Jesus regarding Our own words. It is written:
In The Name of Jesus
quote:
ORIGINAL: BlackSabbath
Hi everybody. In all the years I was in the Pentecostal/charismatic church, I was taught this rather strange doctrine, IMO, that a genuine OT prophet was 100 % correct in his prophecies, but a genuine NT prophet is not necessarily 100% correct.
How on earth is this bizarre doctrine justifed is beyond me, but it had something to do with the OT prophet being under the law, whilst the NT prophet was under grace. Whoopee I say. Big deal. It's the same Holy Spirit that uttered prophecies whether in the OT or NT. I don't see how the Holy Spirit can get it wrong now sometimes because we're in the era of grace.
Personally, I think it's all baloney so that every man and his dog could make outlandish "propehecies" that didn't have to be accountable by any test. I'm sorry if I'm coming across cynical, but that's the way I see it. I think it's ridiculous that a real prophet can get it wrong. I think it's just a con job for people to proclaim themselves "prophets" without meeting the test.
If someone could clarify this bizarre doctrine for me, I'd greatly appreciate it.
We are all to come in The Name of Jesus and pray in The Name:
In The Name of Jesus
[edited by moderator]
< Message edited by prophetica -- 1/11/2008 8:12:36 PM >
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RE: A question about OT prophets versus NT prophets - 1/15/2008 11:55:21 AM
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cybrjewls
Posts: 1479
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Greetings! Also, we notice that The Kingdom teaching for New Testament Scriptures is written primarily by Apostles as Gospel Testimony as contasted with the Old Testament which was primarily given to Prophets. Therefore, the Kingdom advanced as it is written: I will send them prophets and apostles and He first appointed apostles, prophets, and teachers and he gave some to be apostles, some to be prophets, and some to be evangelists.
We see that the word 'apostle' means a messenger and ambassador from another country.
In this way, The Kingdom of God is advanced in the New Testament by Apostles, prophets, evangelists, pastors, and teachers.. Whereas, in the Old Testament, the Prophets of God were the primary messengers by Prophecy.
We see that this is Christs Teaching: for all the law and the prophets prophesied until John the Baptist whose name was given by an angel and it means 'my messenger'.
< Message edited by prophetica -- 1/16/2008 2:16:10 AM >
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RE: A question about OT prophets versus NT prophets - 1/15/2008 1:01:18 PM
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stateofgrace
Posts: 2004
Joined: 4/12/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: HawkinsA
1. Even in the last days, you'll see His Witnesses to be sent
a Witness is not the necessarily the same as a Prophet.
quote:
2. Hope that you sound even logical that if by any chance you need to test the spirit of the false prophets, that means, prophet exists.
Huh? No, it doesn't necessarily mean that prophets exist today - simply that those who claim to be prophets (or who others claim to be prophets) exist today
quote:
Else you'll be told to say that whoever claimed to be a prophet will be a false prophet. (why do you even need a test at all)
We're pretty much told in the NT to test teachings of all kinds. We're also told that false prophets exist.
quote:
3. A prophet is sent when God sees fit, not judged by you to say that "It's not needed..." etc.
Many claim to be prophets (or others claim that they are) - some of them aren't even Christians. Is everyone who claims to be a prophet necessarily so?
quote:
4. A prophet will have "new revelations" (as I said, it boils down to how you define the term "new revelation"),
Not necessarily. Take a look at the Strong's definition of the Greek word used for "prophet" in the NT. Especially item e -
of men filled with the Spirit of God, who by God's authority and command in words of weight pleads the cause of God and urges salvation of men
That's not describing new revelation - it's calling attention to existing revelation, pleading the cause of God, urging salvation of men.
quote:
what else do you think you can even identify a true prophet.
This has been explained over and over on these forums. A true prophet who is simply "pleading the cause" will not proclaim something inconsistent with scripture. One who predicts future events will, if truly prophesying from God, not be wrong in his prophecy. If it is not from God, it is from the flesh.
quote:
5. If you are willing to think even logically, you'll know how arrogant you are to say that prophets no longer exist.
Has anyone said for certain that prophets (as in the "pleading the case") no longer exist? What people have been saying is that prophets should be held to biblical standards.
quote:
Anyways, we shall meet when our Lord Jesus Christ comes. Just as Paul said, let our Lord be the judge, instead of a human pretenting to be in a judgement seat with his pride and arrogance.
Maybe it sounds like you are the one placing yourself in the judgement seat. You have claimed that those who disagree with you aren't thinking logically and are arrogant.
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RE: A question about OT prophets versus NT prophets - 1/15/2008 1:08:05 PM
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stateofgrace
Posts: 2004
Joined: 4/12/2005
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Here is another link to the bible study tools on this site - this time to the entry in Baker's Dictionary of Evangelical Theology for false prophets.
To summarize,
In the OT, a false prophet was a liar, their visions were "drawn out of their own hearts," some of them used the occult as a means to prophesy, they gave the people what they wanted to hear, they sought popular acclaim (and so on).
In the NT, 1 John 1:4 is cited as a reminder to test what we hear - " Dear friends, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world." (NIV)
We are told in Revelation that in the end times, false prophets will even perform signs and wonders!
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America Needs Revival. Will you commit to pray for it?
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RE: A question about OT prophets versus NT prophets - 7/12/2008 7:37:45 AM
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csl7037
Posts: 1775
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This quote below from Bob Jones brought me here and I found this old thread when I did a search. Interesting stuff.
However, he was quoted as saying that the general level of prophetic revelation in the movement's "prophets" had an accuracy level of about 65 percent. Some prophets were as low as 10 percent accurate, he said, with some of the "most mature" prophets having a rating "approaching 85 percent to 95 percent. "
My thinking is, if they're putting themselves in the office of prophet, they better be right! If you want to claim an OT role, you're going to be held to an OT standard. But looking at this old thread, I found this very interesting...
quote:
ORIGINAL: stateofgrace
Take a look at the Strong's definition of the Greek word used for "prophet" in the NT. Especially item e -
of men filled with the Spirit of God, who by God's authority and command in words of weight pleads the cause of God and urges salvation of men
That's not describing new revelation - it's calling attention to existing revelation, pleading the cause of God, urging salvation of men.
This has been explained over and over on these forums. A true prophet who is simply "pleading the cause" will not proclaim something inconsistent with scripture. One who predicts future events will, if truly prophesying from God, not be wrong in his prophecy. If it is not from God, it is from the flesh.
My problem is with those predicting future events. Do they have any business doing that? I believe in the gift of prophecy moving today but very differently than the Office of Prophet operated in the OT. It seems to be any time you hear one of these guys predicting the future, you can know right there that they're already off the reservation. I can't find an example of one of these that was accurate (unless it was absurdly vague to begin with, that's a nice trick if you can get away with it).
But, in my quote above from Bob Jones, why do they go to such lengths to justify when they're wrong instead of just admitting they aren't fortunetellers. It's bizarre to me. Partly, I think it's because people don't know any better and they know they wont really be "called" on their unfulfilled predictions. But it seems like there's more to it to me...why would they even go there? We see over and over again - moving in the prophetic (word of knowledge, word of wisdom for the moment, for a situation), moving in healing, evangelism, teaching, lifting up God is not good enough . . . it's when they feel the need to puff themselves up that they get out on these crazy limbs. But they've got the throngs of people who follow blindly as a nice safety net if they fall.
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RE: A question about OT prophets versus NT prophets - 7/16/2008 10:46:10 AM
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hellochurch
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Dear all, I found something that answers that, in the Book, where it describes what the purpose of those gifts and functions were, and so therefore we can judge how long they were to be in action by the description given of their function.
- - - - "The gifts that he gave were that some apostles, some prophets, some evangelists, some pastors and some teachers, to equip the saints for the work of ministry, for building up the body of christ, until all of us come to the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to the FULL STATURE OF CHRIST.
- -- -- -- -- Here is the answer from scripture HIMself, (..and the WORD was GOD.) how long should the gifts be in operation and manifested, including the new testament prophets, ...."UNTIL ALL ARE IN FULL unity of FAITH AND HAVE COME TO FULL STATURE." -(this wasn't a yell, it was just a way of marking out the importance of the last sentence. I dont know how to use colour underlining yet.), . . .
so are we all in unity of faith and in the full stature of Jesus Christ? no? not yet? well then, there should be apostles, prophets, teachers, evangelists, and pastors, who are equipping us, for the work of the minstry, notice!!!! it is not the 5 workers mentioned that are supposed to be doing the ministry,!!!! they are supposed to be equipping the rest of us to do the work of the ministry, the pastor is not the minister, those listening to the pastor are to be the ministers, you and me, .
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RE: A question about OT prophets versus NT prophets - 7/16/2008 11:10:22 AM
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hellochurch
Posts: 188
Joined: 7/15/2008
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dear earthless and all;
(how are you, earthless, set free from the bonds of the earthy natural nature, free to soar?)
----regarding prophets today, -(whom you will see that I have explained from the Book why I believe real prophets called by God are amoung us today, in my previous post of a couple minutes ago, which should be right above this one)
Let's look at Jonah for information about how a prophet functions even though he is o.t. and we are in n.t. and I think there is a distinction between the two, and I will explain why below, or in my next post.
/ / / /
JONAH: WAS A MAN WHO GOD CALLED TO SPEAK ON HIS BEHALF TO A GROUP OF PEOPLE THAT JONAH FELT WERE DISTASTEFUL, (IN THE VEGGIE TALES VERSION, THEY ARE DISCRIBED AS 'FISH SLAPPERS'- THEY SLAPPED EACH OTHER IN THE FACE WITH FISHES!)
However, in real life they were enemies of Israel and barbaric people who did atrocious things to those they caught in war, etc. maiming, etc. somewhat like the muslims who catch christians today.(some parts of our world) ...I believe they enjoyed torturing people, etc.
...Jonah seemed to think they did not deserve any chances and did not want to go and announce that they were about to receive judgement from God and that they should repent. Number one, I think he was worred about the cost of presenting such a statement to such a group, probably his own skin and maybe torture etc. or perhaps he just hoped they would get torched by the LORD because they deserved it and he didn't want them to escape that.
Anyway, God really called him, he really was a prophet, he really had a message straight from God, he gave the message, people believed him, and then. . . it looked like, for all intents and purposed, Jonah was a fraud, because NO DESTRUCTION CAME UPON THE NINEVITES. It looked like what Jonah had told them about their destruction was a complete farse and false because no destruction came at all.
......
This all happened because JOnah gave Gods message, the people believed it, they adhered to it and turned and repented, ... and then as a result, no destruction came up on them. But looking at it from a skeptics pov, it LOOKED LIKE JONAH WAS A LIAR.!!
GET IT?
Other Sim. things happen in the ministry of the prophet, some Words from the Lord are given to human beings and depend on their, the humans interaction with that word, #1 they have to have faith, when they hear it, mix what they hear with faith, they need to believe it, and then #2 they need to act on their faith, ie. if the hebrews received from God the word that they would have victory in battle, but then decided not to enter into the battle, they would have lost completely. The word required something from them, ie if they just sat back and thought ok, God said we are going to win in this situation, so therefore we will all sit outside our tents today and wait for our win. This would never have cut it, so to speak, they needed to act, go to battle, fight, in order to get what God had given them. It is the same for many things, ie. many believe oh if God said it He will do it, well no, not exactly, God always looks for a man on the earth, who will believe HIm, and work with HIm, and by man I mean ADAM themale and female ADAM, not just the male version of ADAM. Women are completely included in what God is doing on the earth, and are not left out in anyway, therefore there is not no more jew or greek, male or female, in CHRIST JESUS. ! LOVE to you all, smack! (that was a kiss, how di I use these little buttons kisses, colours, etc. no there is no kiss, I will have to use smacks.
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RE: A question about OT prophets versus NT prophets - 7/16/2008 12:18:54 PM
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hellochurch
Posts: 188
Joined: 7/15/2008
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Dear earthless and all, I do not know how I got three appearances of my name as viewing this thread, it says up above, that I am on this three times, unless I checked stay logged in for 24 hours, and then logged in again, and then again, which I did not do to my knowledge, I dont know,.
Also...is there a sp checker on this typing board? when I type I later notice if I am too fast, my correct sp. doesnt keep up with me either.
---RE: PROPHETS NOW AND PROPHETS THEN, IS THERE A DIFFERENCE?
I SAY YES.
----This is why, in the previous covenant or collection of revelation, (old testament)what the rabbis say was passed down from Adam, the annointings of the prophet, priest and king, were divided and given to three different men in the body of believers back then. The prophet was called by God to be the number one spokesman for God for the whole country, he had an office, and everything, that is the number one prophet, they also had schools of prophets, guys who were also called and functioned but, they were maybe sent out from the schools to the various places in Israel to operate there in the local setting.... But there was one main guy that spoke for God to the King, (if they had one at that time) (Remember God preferred to have no king, yet the people preferred to imitate those around them) God preferred to speak through the prophet like he did with Moses, where the prophet was the king as well, so to speak, and the prophet was the priest, who also did intercession for the people when they sinned, like ie Moses, I think Moses would be a good example of the o.t. prophet, priest and king, all in one package. At Moses's time there were not other schooled prophets, ie. like a school of the prophets like when ELijah was on the earth, Elisha talked to the guys in the school, andt they also knew the mind of the Lord, etc. about things, and knew things supernaturally, so even back then, tho there were head prophet guys, there were also lesser level guys in the prophetic.
------this is as it is today, there are lesser level guys, prophets, maybe some in every body of believers who function in the gifts of the prophet, for that local body, but becausee of disobedience, etc. some bodies will have no prophets, maybe for the simple reason God told some to move there and go to church there and they won't or don't whatever, but I believe every group has been sent some by God if they are not already in that group, or maybe God is growing them up in the group, but because of the opinions of men, ie no prophets today, they are not taken seriously, or are wounded etc. and thought of as strange, etc. and not listened to or whatever,...
Anyway, different rules for prophets today, yes. Death to prophets for getting a word wrong? No i do not believe it applies today, definitely not, and not even in the beginning of the new testament. (Do you want to be put to death any time you sin?)
Why? yes grace, sin in that area, like sin in the area you may have sinned in today or yesterday, is no diff. to God I do not believe. Especially a young prophet, esp. in our today's church and culture where no one hardly believes they exist, so hardly any training available etc. no schools hardly at all from older prophets to teach them etc. so I believe God would give them the same grace he gives the average believer on their sins.
NOw if someone knowingly deliberately lies, that would be different, just like wilful sin, wilful sin, including the prophet who might deliberately willfully make up something for their own personal glory, human applause, etc. and it not be from the Lord, and it is not an honest mistake, I believe God will correct that sin with a spank, like he will correct you in areas that you know better in, but are still persisting in a headstrong manner. Like any good parent, you would correct your child, and so it is with our Father, he will correct us, depending on the degree of what we are doing.
----- Now, there are reasons that prophets appear to be wrong, when they are not, in the areas of judgement for example, often like Jonah's example, God sends prophets to judge people, even nations, cities, etc. This will usually be a higher level prophet, someone whom God has trained up over time, who is obedient etc. whom God can trust. (LOok at Moses for example, He disobeyed, even after decades of training, these are things God has to put up with as well as the listeners to these propehts,. Moses struck the rock in anger, this was the wrong image, it was not from God, that was created by his action, and it cost Moses, because he was operating as Gods only spokesman to millions of peoples, I think they were millions back then.)
The higher the level of prophet, the more opportunity there is for judgement from God, correction to occur that is unpleasant, if it is direct disobedience, which in Moses ' case it was. ie. there could be death given as a sentence by God for a sever reason to a prophet, like occured in the o.t. to the younger prophet who listened to anotehr propeht instead of to God, ie. God told him dont eat, dont go back this way, and dont talk to anyone and another propeht came along and told him the Lord changed his mind and gave him this message., etc. which was the opposite, that guy died.
Annanias and Saphira also died for directly lying, and this I presume was in an atmosphere of holiness that the state of the church was in with the presence of God manifesting all the time amoung them. so touching the Holiness of God with lies, is a dangerous thing. even in the new testament.
I believe this judgement was performed by Paul in the power of the Holy SPirit and it was his judgement on the situation, not necessarily the LORD.s.
God is revealed as so much the parent, so loving in how he deals with his kids, so I am sure that situation was more Paul, than God's nature. God is all about redemption, ie. coming as Jesus and taking the sins of the people on himself, can you imagine that? out of LOVE, where as Paul, as human, was still falling far sort of what Jesus was like. USually with God judgmenet is a long time coming and there are plenty of warnings to us to change, we do not know what transpired in the previous dealings in the church with these people. They may have even been false believers, faking everything entirely, like the warning of taking the emblems of the communion, some people drink the cup and take the bread without being really born again and apparently there is a death sentence for this action.
----
anyway, God as parent, and as Master of the Prophets will be teaching them from him, and asking them to speak things, and they may make mistakes, and even hear what God says wrong, or interpret it wrong, these are the growing pains of the prophets, I am sure Elijah and Moses had them, with Moses we see his mistakes, ie hitting the rock in anger, this cost God his image, Moses presented a wrong image of God to the people, this happens a lot today in the pupit, men presenting an image of God that is not accurate, God has to handle that, it is all sin, yet they are not struck dead, as yet, that we know of,
sp I do not believe God would give a death sentence to a prophet who was learning, if they made honest mistakes.
This is diff. than someone deliberately lying and knowing the diff. yet making up stuff for their own glory and to be noticed, and it not be from God, and as well, God says many times some prophets have spoken and He did not send them and they know so, and are bent on doing it anyway, and this was receive judgement, I think it depends on the heart of the prophet and his relationship to God, is he in Love with the Lord, is he giving his all and still messing up, this is different than someone who knws God never told them a thing and are making up things to fit iwth some political or other christian agenda for manipulation purposes, and I think it would have to be that they were doing it after many times of God slapping their hands, then perhpas death might come as a final judgement. from the Lord, or someone with the power and authority of God, given them by him can act as a man, with the judgemnet occurring within the mind of the man, and it not be God's judgement but because the LORD has entrusted that man with divine authority and power, that man can exercise judgment and may cause the death of someone, outside of it being Gods direct intervention. God entrusts things to some people, by 'man' I am meaning mankind, including females by the way.
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RE: A question about OT prophets versus NT prophets - 7/16/2008 1:48:49 PM
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hellochurch
Posts: 188
Joined: 7/15/2008
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dear Earthless;
"re making up of gifts" but before that point, I need to know re your name and picture, under which it says from where barbque pidgeons roast, I am just curious what that is about, it is something from something, and I am very interested in symbols, etc. and why this is associated with your name, et.c --also please tell me where the spell checker is on the reply board, as I really need it,
-----making up gifts is not what Paul wrote, and he himself said that he spoke in tongues, diff. languages that the HOly Spirit gave utterance to, himself, more than all of them, I think he was addressing order in the services, and notice the other instruction, all of them "could prophesy" he confirmed that he thought they all could prophesy, which means that Paul understood that gift in this way, that all could give messages or revelation about the scripture meaning or direct messages from the Holy SPirit in words taht He wanted to say to the church, so all the whole church could speak in diff. languages they had not learned under the directio of and influence of the Holy Spirit and all of them could also prophesy, but BUT what he found out of place was that they should do it individually, and the tongues which were diff. languages saying things the Holy Spirit was saying, was ok, but because of people coming in amounst them, for those people's sake, Paul preferred to have the people move in prophesy only in the language that they all spoke, so that people coming in not yet believers, could hear things being revealed, ie. hear their own secrets of their own hearts being spoken out loud in a language that they could comprehend, Paul said this is more productive, even though both were avaialble to the hcurhc to do, and for clarity sake, each one talk in turn, ie. meswsages to the church could be given aloud while the next person waited, etc. and all give their message of revelation ,etc. in order, so that each could be hearda nd the newcomers could understand in their own spoken language.
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RE: A question about OT prophets versus NT prophets - 7/16/2008 2:33:04 PM
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earthless
Posts: 6274
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: where pigeons are wearing sweaters....
Status: online
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quote:
ORIGINAL: hellochurch
dear Earthless;
"re making up of gifts" but before that point, I need to know re your name and picture, under which it says from where barbque pidgeons roast, I am just curious what that is about, it is something from something, and I am very interested in symbols, etc. and why this is associated with your name, et.c --also please tell me where the spell checker is on the reply board, as I really need it,
Sorry, but what are you asking? About my avatar and or about my location? By "symbol" do you mean my self-portrait avatar? It's just an avatar.. used by any and all message boards. Please let me know what your questions are, I would be more than happy to answer them.
_____________________________
Probing Today's Religious Movements | Promoting Doctrinal Discernment & Critical Thinking | Providing Reasons for Christian Faith & Ethics
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RE: A question about OT prophets versus NT prophets - 7/16/2008 2:43:21 PM
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hellochurch
Posts: 188
Joined: 7/15/2008
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reply to State of Grace, re prophets, I agree with the person who said that the fact that the test exists for the false prophets, proves that true prophets were also existing. Otherwise there would be no test for prophets. This is great wisdom. As soon as a prophet emerged, right away it would be know they were false no test would be required, what?! a prophet,!? we know you no longer exist so therefore you are false right off the bat, we do not need a test.----The fact that a test was needed proved the fact that real true prophets existed and could be extinquished from false ones.
- - - - please note, the scripture you quoted about the end times, miracles, signs and wonders, - these words and this very phrase are also used to describe what Jesus sent out the original 12 to do and then Jesus said the original 12 were to teach others to do the very same that Jesus taught them, ie to do miracles, signs and wonders. The fact that there are people today in our world doing miracles signs and wonders, does not make them false, but it does make false all those who claim Jesus and are not doing miracles signs and wonders. these people are spoken of in the bible as those who are saying they believe the Truth, but are denying the power, Denying The Power. They are adhering to a form of godliness, but denying that the power The Power, Denying HIM by saying what he told the original 12 to teach all others after them to do, they deny that this is what Jesus tol d us to do, they are denying that this is for today, they are making Jesus and connection to him powerless, and fruitless, and without any supernatural activity, they are making him natural, common and powerless. His power, his miracles, his might, his saving ability was only for times gone by, they are denying that Jesus told his 12 make disciples of all nations TEACHING THEM TO DO EXACTLY EXACTLY E X A C T L Y AS I HAVE TAUGHT YOU, Did Jesus build a bible schoool, did he raise funds, did he make a pulpit and stand behind it every sunday, saying nice things about what is written in the book, NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO HE WENT OUT EVERYWHERE HEALING, CASTING OUT DEMONS, RAISING THE DEAD, AND TELLING EVERYONE ALL ABOUT THE WONDERFUL GOOD NEWS OF THE KINGDOM, PREACHING THE ACCEPTABLE YEAR OF THE LORD THAT JESUS CAME TO USHE IN TO MAKE EVERY YEAR, WHICH IS SUPERNATUAL CANCELLATION OF FINANCIAL LOSSES SO THAT EVEN PROPERTY OF YOURS THAT FELL OUT OF YOUR FAMILY'S HANDS WOULD BE RETURNED TO YOU, ETC. IT WAS THE YEAR OF JUBILEE,THe year of supernatural blessing that became always because of Jesus, and what he did for us. He never said, build seminaries and make it your lifelong study to kinow the scriptures inside and out, he said, take more people like I did, teach and train them, show them how to operate supernatrually and then tell them to do what I did, feed people miraculously, do wild thingst hat no one even heard of before, like speak new eyeballs into existence for those who dont have any, these are the works fo God that Jesus did and that he reqjuires of us, not just the origianl 12 but the 12 today, here, there and everywherer everywhere there is a 12 in this webblog, there is a 12 that God wants this kind of superntaural work out of today, not yestereday, today and every day, not just then, but all nations, go and teach E X A C T LY AS I HAVE TAUGHT AND SHOWN YOU, TAKE MENA DN WOMEN AND TEACH AND SHOW EXACTLY AS YOU LEARNED AND THEN SEND THEM OUT, THE SENDING OF WHICH MEANS APOSTLED OUT, SENT OUT UNDER THE AUTHORITY OF MY NAME, I GIVE YOU MY NAME, MY AUTHORIITY, MY POWER, TO DO THESE THINGS, BY WHAT POWER DO YOU DO THESE THINGS, BY THE POWER OF JESUS, BY THE POWER IN HIS NEW NAME, THE NAME HIS FATEHR GAVE HIM, HIS FATHER GAVE HIM THE NAME THAT IS ABOVE ALL NAMES, DO YOU KNOW WHAT IT IS,? IT IS YUD HEY VAV HEY, DADDY'S NAME, JESUS RECEIVED IT, FOR HIS OBEDIENCE AND FOR WHAT HE ACCOMPLISHED, SO THAT NOW, AT THE NAME OF JESUS, EVERY KNEWW WILL BOW AND EVERY TONGUYE WILL CONFESS THAT JESUS IS L O R D , WHICH IN THE ORIGINAL TEXT MEANS, HE HAS BEEN GIVEN THE NAME OF HIS FATHER, AS A REWARD FOR WHAT HE DID, BECAUSE L O R D WAS ONLY TRANSLATED IN THE KJV WHEN IT MEANT YHVH. !!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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RE: A question about OT prophets versus NT prophets - 7/16/2008 2:52:38 PM
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hellochurch
Posts: 188
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REPLY TO DEAR EARTHLESS, UNDER YOUR AVATAR, IS LISTED POSTS, 4946, JOINED 4/11/2005
FROM: ..'WHERE BBQ PIGEONS ROAST' - ? WHAT IS THE MEANING OF WHERE YOU ARE FROM, "WHERE BBQ PIGEONS ROAST?"
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RE: A question about OT prophets versus NT prophets - 7/16/2008 3:05:48 PM
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earthless
Posts: 6274
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: where pigeons are wearing sweaters....
Status: online
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quote:
ORIGINAL: hellochurch
REPLY TO DEAR EARTHLESS, UNDER YOUR AVATAR, IS LISTED POSTS, 4946, JOINED 4/11/2005
FROM: ..'WHERE BBQ PIGEONS ROAST' - ? WHAT IS THE MEANING OF WHERE YOU ARE FROM, "WHERE BBQ PIGEONS ROAST?"
Ah, I see. The meaning of "Where BBQ Pigeons roast" is just a word play about living in a large city where it is hot (as it is summer) and the homeless roast pigeons with BBQ sauce from their local rib joint.
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Probing Today's Religious Movements | Promoting Doctrinal Discernment & Critical Thinking | Providing Reasons for Christian Faith & Ethics
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RE: A question about OT prophets versus NT prophets - 7/16/2008 9:00:18 PM
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prophet
Posts: 593
Joined: 4/19/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: cammo2006
hellochurch: can I suggest you break up your posts into paragraphs? It would make them far more readable.
Just humbly suggesting. 
Hear! Hear!
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Create in me a Clean Heart, O Lord.
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RE: A question about OT prophets versus NT prophets - 7/16/2008 9:32:21 PM
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OleFitzHi
Posts: 86
Joined: 6/26/2006
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quote:
ORIGINAL: BlackSabbath
Hi everybody. In all the years I was in the Pentecostal/charismatic church, I was taught this rather strange doctrine, IMO, that a genuine OT prophet was 100 % correct in his prophecies, but a genuine NT prophet is not necessarily 100% correct.
How on earth is this bizarre doctrine justifed is beyond me, but it had something to do with the OT prophet being under the law, whilst the NT prophet was under grace. Whoopee I say. Big deal. It's the same Holy Spirit that uttered prophecies whether in the OT or NT. I don't see how the Holy Spirit can get it wrong now sometimes because we're in the era of grace.
Personally, I think it's all baloney so that every man and his dog could make outlandish "propehecies" that didn't have to be accountable by any test. I'm sorry if I'm coming across cynical, but that's the way I see it. I think it's ridiculous that a real prophet can get it wrong. I think it's just a con job for people to proclaim themselves "prophets" without meeting the test.
If someone could clarify this bizarre doctrine for me, I'd greatly appreciate it.
[edited by moderator]
Let me try an explanation. The OT term "prophet" roughly compares to the NT term "apostle." In the OT, prophets were moved by God to speak in the name of God. They would say, "The Lord says..." or "Thus saith the Lord..." or something like that in their own language. Then whatever came forth was THE words of God. In the NT, the "apostles" had authority to write Scripture, which are THE words of God.
There are no apostles like there were in that day. Therefore no one has authority to write Scripture. No feeling or intuition or thought that may or may not be led by the Holy Spirit should be given equal weight with Scripture.
In his letter to the Corinthians, Paul was probably referring to something different from OT prophecy. I would say that NT prophecy is something entirely different from OT prophecy. Many of us have all felt leadings of the Holy Spirit. If these leadings were made known to a congregation, Paul would probably call this prophecy. Many people in the church at Corinth had this gift of prophecy, so much so that Paul attempted to regulate it. Some were told to wait. Some were told to keep silent. This is not the same thing as OT prophecy. Paul would never tell an OT prophet to remain silent.
Any comments on this?
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RE: A question about OT prophets versus NT prophets - 7/16/2008 10:19:34 PM
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prophet
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OT prophets were foundational because they write the dictations of God for the coming of the messian and His kingdom. Its all done. NT prophets is to administer what has already been revealed, nomore revelations as the messiah has come.
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Create in me a Clean Heart, O Lord.
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RE: A question about OT prophets versus NT prophets - 7/16/2008 11:20:24 PM
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LawrenceJCaldwell
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Please consider this portion from my upcoming book, Christian Mythology regarding this question specifically and also the many posts to it that are utterly lacking in Scripture.
"In the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth by speaking them into existence. In the end, God will destroy the wicked by speaking them into eternal death and hell. By the sword in His mouth He also works in the lives of believers to sanctify them. These truths we both see and believe by faith as God’s Word in Genesis 1:1-3, Revelation 19:15, 21, and Hebrews 4:12 respectively. Even this Word, wielded by the tongues of mere men produced life and death (see Acts 5:3-5 and Acts 16:30-34 for example).
God indeed says in Proverbs 18:21, “Death and life are in the power of the tongue: and they that love it shall eat the fruit thereof.” The church today has lost this saltiness and neither hears nor speaks the Word of God as it should. Rather, it has been overcome by the world and made a friend of its shameful language. It is time for the remnant to awake and be filled with the Spirit and speak divinely as we ought to. Stir up your remembrance (Luke 24:8), listen to the witness of the Spirit (John 14:26), and speak the name of Jesus and His Word.
Just look at the overwhelming amount of Scripture that encourages us precisely how and what we should speak. When we put off the sin of the world’s words, God’s Word will roll from our tongues with power and grace.
Deuteronomy 6:4-16 - Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD: And thou shalt love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy might. And these words, which I command thee this day, shall be in thine heart: And thou shalt teach them diligently unto thy children, and shalt talk of them when thou sittest in thine house, and when thou walkest by the way, and when thou liest down, and when thou risest up. And thou shalt bind them for a sign upon thine hand, and they shall be as frontlets between thine eyes. And thou shalt write them upon the posts of thy house, and on thy gates.
Col 3:17 - And whatsoever ye do in word or deed, do all in the name of the Lord Jesus, giving thanks to God and the Father by him.
1Th 2:13 - For this cause also thank we God without ceasing, because, when ye received the word of God which ye heard of us, ye received it not as the word of men, but as it is in truth, the word of God, which effectually worketh also in you that believe.
Ac 26:25 - But he said, I am not mad, most noble Festus; but speak forth the words of truth and soberness.
1Co 2:6 - Howbeit we speak wisdom among them that are perfect: yet not the wisdom of this world, nor of the princes of this world, that come to nought:
1Co 2:7 - But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory:
1Co 2:13 - Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
2Co 2:17 - For we are not as many, which corrupt the word of God: but as of sincerity, but as of God, in the sight of God speak we in Christ.
2Co 4:13 - We having the same spirit of faith, according as it is written, I believed, and therefore have I spoken; we also believe, and therefore speak;
1Pe 4:11 - If any man speak, let him speak as the oracles of God; if any man minister, let him do it as of the ability which God giveth: that God in all things may be glorified through Jesus Christ, to whom be praise and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.
Col 4:6 - Let your speech be alway with grace, seasoned with salt, that ye may know how ye ought to answer every man.
Eph 4:15 - But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ:
These verses tell us the source of our words and how we get them. We do not receive new revelation, but we do indeed receive the pure, powerful, and inspired Word of God. If you wonder why your witness is weak, your words are not effective, your language is not pleasing to God (you know what you say under your breath, in your mind, and when no one else is around), it is because you do not have the mind of Christ and your heart is not right with God. Jesus said that out of the heart come evil thoughts. Therefore, keep your heart with all diligence, for out of it come the issues of life. The only life that we should be concerned with and speak about is not our own but the life of the Lord Jesus Christ that He now lives in me (Galatians 2:20). Purpose now to put yourself daily, moment by moment upon the altar of sacrifice and allow God to consume your flesh and rectify your tongue in His holy fire (Romans 12:1-2). Then you will know His will, you will speak His will, you will pray His will. For of Him, and through Him, and to Him are all things to the glory of God. Amen. (Romans 11:36-38)"
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Lawrence J. Caldwell
Author & Speaker
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RE: A question about OT prophets versus NT prophets - 7/18/2008 12:14:50 PM
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hellochurch
Posts: 188
Joined: 7/15/2008
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dear earthless, here is some interesting insight on our Holy Scriptures, from ancient Jewish rabbis who spent their whole lives studying them,
"GETTING EYES TO SEE, from bible quote re: 'he who has ears, let him hear what the SPirit is saying to the called out ones, (church)' re:eyes to see and ears to hear, implies that we can have eyes and ears but not be seeing and hearing at all.
The Jewish rabbis teach there are 4 levels of understanding the bible, this is called ParDes meaning orchard or paradise, the first leve P'shat which is the simple and literal meaning you can read the scriptures at historical face value. 2nd is Remez, a hint or suggestion, reading between the lines, 3rd level D'Rash deeper insight to the parables and dark sayings, the 3rd is D'Rash deeper insight to the parables and dark sayings. 4th level Sod - are the secrets and mysteries of the Kingdom. The 3rd and 4th levels are the highest levels of understanding which are hidden from the natural understanding and bring us face to face with God. Face to face, literally means, in the underlying language, mouth to mouth, which is a symbol for 'kissing', the passionate kisses of for example, if taken from the song of songs, the woman is described as a garden, this word garden means 'a bride'.This is what the scriptures allude to in sos 1:2 "let him kiss me with the kisses of his mouth" and "his kisses are like wine" It points to the breath of the bridegroom Messiah,breathing the rmystery of the revelation of himself into his bride, whoj is being brought into the garden of paradise with her groom. This is how Jesus understood and interpreted the bible and how he taught his disciples after him. This is how the chosen bride will know her messiah in the garden and how Jesus will reveal himself to the nations through her. teh whole bible is alive, it is a living breathing entity, who calls himself" The WOrd, and The Word became FLesh and lived amoung us" ..."on the white horse, Faithful and True, the Living WORD." Every letter and every word is an epiphany of the Living Jesus! What does Jesus mean when he says, "Take up your cross and follow me?" It means that he wants you to crucify your natural understanding of the scriptures, and that you must "follow him" you must follow him through the whole bible from Genesis to revelations, and see that he is the central theme through it all, he will take us from the beginning to the end of the bible and wants us to crucify our natural understanding and allow him to give us eyes to see! to let him show us who he really is, throught the parables and mysteries that are in ihim, and you will then not be deceived, in that process there is a radical transformation and purification taking place, a removal of carnality or flesh or natural understanding, natural understanding is FALSE INTERPRETATION. When an eagle looks directly into the sun, its eyes cover over with an oil, when we look directlyinto Jesus, the son of God the LIVING WORD, and see the parables and mysteries that are in him, we begin to udnerstand the prophetic nature of God and produce the annointing oil poured out of the mind of Christ. Christ means annointing. The mind of the annointing that sees and understands and speaks the deeper things of God. Your eyes and ears and mouth are in your head. Tehse are the three realms that God will use to transform you byopening your eyes and ears to prophetic revelatory understanding of HIs Word, by feeding you on the HIDDEN MANNA, this is true COMMUNION, the truly prophetic impregnating WORD. - - - - - Mem speaks of a spring of open revelation of truth, or a wave of water, the ocean, the sea, waters, peoples, nations, language and tongues and it has the numerical value of 40, 40 speaks of a biblical generation, Moses at the age of 40 gets a revelation of who he really is and desont identify any more with Egypt and is lead out alone and meets the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. Moses retursn 40 years later to deliver his people out, so here we see an individual calling out of Egypt which is carnality or naturalness only, (When to be spiritual is to be supernatural) and a returning to gather togetehr the peoples the multitudes into the mikveh of the God of ABraham, Isaac and Jacob. God leads them another 40 years in the wilderness then into the promsied land. So ehre we see 3 sets of 40 = 120. Moses was 120 when Joshua lead them into the promised land. In rabbinical teachings the mikveh is to hold 120 gallons of water and it is described as being like a womb. 120 is a very powerful because it speaks of the end of all felsh Ge. 6,3. Noah built the ark in 120 years then the rains came and the fountains of the deep burst open for 40 days and 40 nights. In the upper room there were originall 500 people 380 left 120 stayed. So here we get to see the mikveh the outpouring of the rain from above and the fountains of the great deep vursting out of the people flowing with the propehtic interpetation which is what it means to speak in tongues. So here we see a picture of the transfomration of the propehtic and apostolic bride. In Rev 15 there is a sea of glass with people standing on it that sing the song of Moses and the Lamb. Tabbinical teaching says that this song is called "Teh song fo the sea" it has its origins in exo 15. This word for sea is G2281 Thalassa in the book of revelations speaks specifically of the red sea. God is our Mikveh. He wants you to be his 'mikveh' so to speak, this provides the "way in and the way out" for both parties of the partnership. It is a partnering with the Holy One. Like the covenant and the articles of which God provided between he and Abraham. God walked in Blood, the red sea metaphorically is a sea of blood, it is the blood of christ, ever offered in the heavenly (JErusalem above) temple. So in God we see the calling out of Egypt on the wings of eagles, the passing through the mikvehand the gathering in of the nations.
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RE: A question about OT prophets versus NT prophets - 7/18/2008 4:16:09 PM
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hellochurch
Posts: 188
Joined: 7/15/2008
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to camo and earthless,
re my longlong long post, since I am new I didnt and still dont know how to cut and paste and quote, etc. the lonnnnnng post is a quote from a today prophet named Chris Baron, who was talking about revelation OF the Word of God,
this is the distinction, today prophets will not write scripture and will not have things to say ie. like making up a new doctrine etc. their revelations will be OF what is already written, ie. the way Chris was pouring out tying in the whole bible from cover to cover at a deeper level,
This I believe is revelation flowing, which indicates that he is likely a prophet from what he has to say, he is revealing the deep things of the scripture.
re use of this board,
can anyone give me quick info. re colour use, what to use to make a paragraph, ( if I just use returns will they stay, etc. and i tried the quote to insert my Chris Baron quotes, but it came up a whole diff. board and wouldnt let me cut and paste so I tried to write it out, Testing paragraphing
This is a test for spacing of paragraphs to see if it holds.
Re: the bible warnings of the last days and people doing supposed works of God, and how the Lord disowns them, - they are not disowned for doing the supernatural works, they are disowned because Jesus said he did not know them.
ie. Bentley as an example and discussion point, but I am not supporting Bentley or an advocate exactly becasue I dont know enough....nor have looked into lakeland enough to know what is going on there, ....
Hold in view also "these signs WILL FOLLOW those who believe - "they will,. . . " and it is the same signs as are given in the list of those that will be false, so it is not the signs themselves that indicate falsehood, just like many things in the bible, there is the real and a counterfeit that sounds just like the real., ie the lion Jesus and the lion-Satan, the snake -handler- Moses and the snake -handling wizards of Egypt, the difference is not readily clear, one is real and one is counterfeit, and the difference is extremely important,
Incidentally, did everyone notice Moses's unique healing meeting style, and again
I am not discerning Bentley as completely of the Lord because I have not had enough exposure to know what heis saying and doing, fully,
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