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RE: Pope Announces New Indulgence - 12/13/2007 8:55:56 AM
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martyfran
Posts: 566
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quote:
I know how to read and comprehend English enough to know what a statement is saying. Your link's attempt of explaining away the meaning of the Council of Trent on anathema's reminded me of Bill Clinton's "it depends on what the definition of is.. is."
Just like in my bible, Jesus said: "This is my body", some people will argue that he didn't mean what he said. So it should be surprising that people differ on their opinions of english translations of documents written hundreds of years ago in another language.
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RE: Pope Announces New Indulgence - 12/13/2007 9:08:29 AM
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earthless
Posts: 6274
Joined: 4/11/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: martyfran
quote:
I know how to read and comprehend English enough to know what a statement is saying. Your link's attempt of explaining away the meaning of the Council of Trent on anathema's reminded me of Bill Clinton's "it depends on what the definition of is.. is."
Just like in my bible, Jesus said: "This is my body", some people will argue that he didn't mean what he said. So it should be surprising that people differ on their opinions of english translations of documents written hundreds of years ago in another language.
Which is why proper hermeneutics is so important. But before we even get to the issue of cannibalism that you're implying. Let's remain on the very real fact that the Vatican embraces the proclamations of the Council of Trent. In which anyone that is not an RCC adherent is called cursed, in grave sin.
And had we been alive a few centuries ago would have been tortured and murdered in some very macabre manner by the RCC.
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Probing Today's Religious Movements | Promoting Doctrinal Discernment & Critical Thinking | Providing Reasons for Christian Faith & Ethics
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RE: Pope Announces New Indulgence - 12/13/2007 1:35:08 PM
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Odeliya
Posts: 2408
Joined: 8/10/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Lurker
quote:
Pope has no right to bind or loose anyone's salvation...
Err, yes he does. We see the instance of Jesus passing on this authority to Peter when He established Peter as the head of the Church in Matthew 16. "Whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven" (Matt. 16:19). As Peter's rightful successor, they inherit the authority granted to the office.
Thanks, Lurker,
but would you kindly elaborate a bit, in which way does RC see a Pope (or any human being for that matter) having any authority over other people’s salvation?
the only way I can think of a pastor having any impact on it is by telling people the Gospel and maybe being a shepherd, directing and assisting the flock in their spiritual growth, warning when they go astray, supporting in difficult times and challenging them to keep persevering.
But the salvation is up to God and after all it’s not up to pastor, for he can’t neither bring about anyone’s salvation no judge the salvation status of others.
_____________________________
Proverbs XI:14 Where no counsel is, the people fall: but in the multitude of counselors there is safety.
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RE: Pope Announces New Indulgence - 12/13/2007 1:50:02 PM
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martyfran
Posts: 566
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quote:
But the salvation is up to God and after all it’s not up to pastor, for he can’t neither bring about anyone’s salvation no judge the salvation status of others.
Indulgences are not about salvation status.
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RE: Pope Announces New Indulgence - 12/13/2007 2:03:13 PM
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Odeliya
Posts: 2408
Joined: 8/10/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: martyfran
quote:
But the salvation is up to God and after all it’s not up to pastor, for he can’t neither bring about anyone’s salvation no judge the salvation status of others.
Indulgences are not about salvation status.
please carefully read my statement and Lurker's answer to it in the quote box in the post 128,above.
_____________________________
Proverbs XI:14 Where no counsel is, the people fall: but in the multitude of counselors there is safety.
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RE: Pope Announces New Indulgence - 12/13/2007 4:16:40 PM
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morganbreed
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The pope is a man. He is not anything but a man with a sin-sick heart and unrighteousness like every other human on the planet (Romans 2:18-25) He needs to be washed in the Savior's atoning blood too. Every single person writing a reply has some knowledge of the truth (John 15:26-27). The only Truth, the only Way and the only Light is Jesus (John 10:1-30) If the Father thought any other method or plan would work for men to be saved and forgiven of our eternal death from sin...... He would not have voluntarily allowed His only begotten & beloved Son to be slaughtered at Calvary. The Gospel of Jesus Christ is a finished work (John 19:30). Adding or subtracting to the infallable Word of the living God is a serious mistake by the proud hearts of men. (Luke 11:28)
Do not be ignorant betheren of the cunning devices of the enemy (the devil) of your soul. There is only One Jesus who loves you and is seeking to give you eternal redemption from your sin (Romans 2:4). There is no other name under Heaven by which we can be saved. There is no other power but God Almighty that took the keys of death and hell in His hands. NO ONE can be reconciled to the Father for eternity except by going through the grace and mercy of Christ Jesus. Jesus is the ONLY advocate the world has. (John 14:6)
God has warned us in His Word of the days coming. Sound doctrine would be forsaken. The simplicity of His free gift of salvation would be made a stumbling block. Faith in the One True God would be hard to find. Many will be deceived and led to destruction. Guard your hearts and minds. Those who overcome until the end will be saved. We are living among wolves. Press into God with all your strength. Your decision for Christ must be made now while you dwell on earth. There is NO way out of your decision after your flesh has died. (Luke 16:19-30)
As Paul did in his time to the Galatians, the Ephesians, the Corinthians, the Romans, the Phillipians, the Jew and the Greek.............. I plead with you. Do not forsake the teaching of Jesus our Messiah. Give glory to God and do not quench the Holy Spirit from your life.
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RE: Pope Announces New Indulgence - 12/13/2007 8:24:21 PM
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Lurker
Posts: 740
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quote:
ORIGINAL: rcjames
quote:
ORIGINAL: brillstreet
He told Peter His Church would be built upon him
I would encourage you to study that passage in Scripture (not RC dogma), I think you will find that Christ was talking about the declaration that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God.
(Mat 16:15) He saith unto them, But whom say ye that I am?
(Mat 16:16) And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.
(Mat 16:17) And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.
(Mat 16:18) And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.
Believing that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God is the foundation for the Church.
Also do a study on the name Peter (petros meaning a piece of a rock; a pebble) and the rock (Petra, meaning a mass of rock) that Christ stated is what the Church will be built on.
Thanks
RC
Yeah, we've been over this EXACT same argument over and over again in the "Why do we need a Pope?" thread.
Short answer, Jesus spoke Aramaic, in Aramaic He said, "You are Kephas, and upon this Kepha I will build my Church." Note, "Kephas" is sometimes called "Cephas" in the scriptures.
But EVEN had Our Lord spoke Greek at the time, we can still know for sure that He was not contrasting Peter as a pebble to a boulder, that difference was not found in the Koine Greek of the time, but only in the older Attic variant of Greek. And grammatically, since Peter was a male, one could not use a feminine word "Petra" for a guy's name, hence "Petra", when converted to the Masculine spelling becomes "Petros". Seriously, it's like on almost every other page of that thread, I know it's on the first page of that thread. The Petros/Petra argument really holds no credibility and at this point. Heck, even a good number of Protestant scholars realize this. Check that thread for references. :)
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Do not be afraid of Christ! He takes nothing away, and he gives you everything. When we give ourselves to him, we receive a hundredfold in return. Yes, open, open wide the doors to Christ—and you will find true life.
-Pope Benedict XVI
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RE: Pope Announces New Indulgence - 12/13/2007 8:38:30 PM
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earthless
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The whole structure of the Roman church is built on the assumption that in Matthew 16:13- 19, Christ appointed Peter to be the first pope and so established the papacy.
If we destroy the papacy of Peter, the foundation of the papacy is destroyed along with the whole Roman hierarchy.
"And I say also unto thee, that thou art Peter (Greek: 1 Petros, 2masculine, 3a person, 4a large stone, 5a piece or fragment of rock such as a man might throw); and upon this rock (Greek: 1Petra, 2feminine, 3not a person, but a 4cliff, a mass of projecting immovable rock.)
I will build my church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and WHATSOEVER thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and WHATSOEVER thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven."
Catholicism claims several false doctrines from this passage:
a) Peter is the rock.
b) Peter is the first pope, with special spiritual supremacy over the church.
c) This same spiritual authority has always resided in the popes of Rome, as being Peter's successors. (This idea is nowhere mentioned in Scripture).
d) Christ built his church on Peter.
This is contrary to God's Word which says:
For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ. I Corinthians 3:11.
e) Christ gave Peter keys to admit into heaven only those who came through the Roman Catholic church.
f) Those not coming through the Roman church would be bound in sin and unable to enter heaven.
Each of these six claims can be shown to be false as follows:
1. Peter is not the rock, because the 12 disciples, knowing well the Old Testament, recognized the Rock as a description or name for God.
"He is the Rock, His word is perfect." Deuteronomy 32:4.
"The Lord is my Rock, and my fortress." Psalms 18:2.
"For who is a God save the Lord? Or who is a Rock save our God." Psalm 18:31.
We see here that there is NO OTHER ROCK than God, not even Peter. Jesus Christ is the foundation rock on which the church is built.
a) The Old Testament prophets said so. (Isaiah 28:16; Psalm 118:22).
b) Jesus said so referring to Himself as "the stone which the builders rejected is become the head of the corner." Matthew 21:42.
c) Peter said so, stating that Christ is "the stone ... which is become the head of the corner. Neither is there salvation in any other ... " Acts 4:11,12.
d) Paul said so, stating that "the rock that followed them was Christ." 1 Corinthians 10:4 and "other foundation can no man lay then that is laid which is Jesus Christ."
1 Corinthians 3:11.
Catholicism is saying that salvation is not in Christ, but in Peter as the first of a succession of popes.
Peter, however, contradicts this wrong idea by saying that, 'Christ is the chief corner stone' in 1 Peter 2:4-8. "To whom coming, as unto a living stone. (v.4).
Behold I lay in Zion a Chief corner stone... he that believeth on him shall not be confounded. v.6
The stone which the builders disallowed is become the head of the corner. (v.7). And a stone of stumbling,and a rock of offense,even to them which stumble at the word, being disobedient. v.8
Even if we allow Catholicism to believe that Peter is a foundation stone upon which Christ built His church, Catholicism has to admit that other New Testament apostles and Old Testament prophets make up the foundation equally as much as Peter does, because:
"And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief cornerstone." Ephesians 2:20.
"And the wall of the city had 12 foundations, and in them the names of the 12 apostles of the lamb." Revelation 21:14.
Peter is given no greater importance than any of the other apostles. "Thou art Peter (Petros), and upon this rock (Petra) I will build my church." Matthew 16:18.
Answer: In the Greek, the word "Peter" is Petros, a person, masculine, a rock or stone that a man might throw.
In the Greek, the word "Rock" is "Petra", not a person, but a cliff, a mass of projecting, immovable rock. It refers not to Peter, but to Peter's declaration of Christ's deity, "Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God."
"PETROS" means a small, moveable stone, but "PETRA" means an immovable
foundation, in this case, Peter's statement on Christ's deity, upon which Christ would build His church.
Christ made two complete, distinct statements:
He said:
1. Thou art Peter, and
2. Upon this rock (change of gender, showing change of subject), I will build my church.
Peter was not characterized by a "PETRA" immovable foundation, as seen in these incidents:
a) Peter soon tried to stop Jesus going to the cross, so Jesus gave him a stinging rebuke: "Get thee behind me, satan." (v.23). These are strong words to use against someone who has just been appointed pope.
b) Peter slept in Gethsemane during Christ's agony.
c) Christ rebuked Peter for rashly cutting off Malchus' ear.
d) Peter boasted that he was ready to die for Christ.
e) Peter then shamefully denied with curses that he knew Christ.
f) Paul rebuked Peter for error and hypocrisy at Antioch in Galatians 2:11, "But when Peter was come to Antioch, I withstood him to the face, because he was to be blamed."
g) In Mark 9:33-35, the disciples argued as to who was the greatest among them. Had Jesus already given Peter the chief rank of pope, then Christ would have simply referred to His previous granting of power to Peter.
Yet Jesus just said that the greatest shall be last and servant of all.
h) Augustine and Jerome state that the Rock is Christ, not Peter. Mark's gospel was written by Mark, assisted by Peter, yet neither Mark's gospel or Peter's letters mention this incident.
They would surely mention it if we needed to know it.
God is called the "Rock" 34 times in the Old Testament.
It was clearly a title of God.
Every Jew would be shocked to call a man the "Rock".
Therefore "Peter" and "Rock" are translated as two different words, with two different meanings.
Note: In John 1:42, Jesus said, "Thou art Simon the son of Jona: thou shalt be called CEPHAS, which is by interpretation, a STONE." Cephas (2786) is a Syriac surname given to Simon, which is "Petros" in Greek, not "Petra".
Peter did not call himself by his Syriac name (Cephas), but by his Greek name (1 Peter 1:1; 2 Peter 1:1).
The word for rock (Petra) in Matthew 16:18 is the same word used for the rock fortress at Edom, known as "PETRA." It is 1.4 kilometres long, 226 metres high, 457 metres wide. Jesus did not say that Peter was the PETRA rock fortress, but that Simon was Petros, a piece of rock. Only God is called "a ROCK."
Jesus is just saying to Simon, "I will make you a firm and distinguished preacher in building my church."
2. Peter is NOT the first pope, with supremacy over the Church because of these reasons:
a) At the Jerusalem council in Acts 15:13-19, the advice of James not Peter was sought and followed. James, not Peter was the spokesman who handed down the decision.
b) If Peter was the first pope, he would have had a greater position than the other disciples. When the disciples discussed which of them was the greatest in Mark 9:33-35, Jesus had a great chance to affirm Peter's headship as the first pope, but Jesus simply said that the greatest shall be a servant of all. Thus Jesus showed no special papal leadership to Peter. Nor should we.
3. Peter was given the keys of the kingdom of heaven (Christian profession in the Church Age), only in the sense that it was Peter who opened the door of Gospel preaching opportunity to Israel on the day of Pentecost (Acts 2:38-42), and to the Gentiles in the house of Cornelius (Acts 10:34-46).
Peter opened the door, and everybody who received Christ as Saviour went into the Kingdom of God through Christ.
source: a compilation of miscellaneous notes made over a period of time longer than ten years.
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Probing Today's Religious Movements | Promoting Doctrinal Discernment & Critical Thinking | Providing Reasons for Christian Faith & Ethics
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RE: Pope Announces New Indulgence - 12/13/2007 9:49:45 PM
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Acts29
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Did the Pope give any reasons why he thought the RC people needed a new indulgence?
How many indulgences are available and why?
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RE: Pope Announces New Indulgence - 12/13/2007 10:33:44 PM
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Ezra
Posts: 1784
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quote:
Certainly, going to Lourdes is not the only way to obtain a plenary indulgence. There are many ways to obtain such an indulgence. For example, one can obtain a plenary indulgence by devoutly reading scripture for a half hour. What the Pope is doing is adding one option to a list of many options, so to answer your question, no, nobody will be penalized in any way if they don't go to Lourdes.
The real issue is not partial or plenary indulgences. It is the Satanic deception regarding purgatory, indulgences, and Lourdes. All of this is actually an attack against the truth of the Gospel. The Catholic Church preaches "another gospel". And it is high time that all Christians clearly understood this.
_____________________________
And whosoever will, let him take the Water of Life freely. Revelation 22:17
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RE: Pope Announces New Indulgence - 12/14/2007 8:19:27 AM
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martyfran
Posts: 566
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Ezra
quote:
Certainly, going to Lourdes is not the only way to obtain a plenary indulgence. There are many ways to obtain such an indulgence. For example, one can obtain a plenary indulgence by devoutly reading scripture for a half hour. What the Pope is doing is adding one option to a list of many options, so to answer your question, no, nobody will be penalized in any way if they don't go to Lourdes.
The real issue is not partial or plenary indulgences. It is the Satanic deception regarding purgatory, indulgences, and Lourdes. All of this is actually an attack against the truth of the Gospel. The Catholic Church preaches "another gospel". And it is high time that all Christians clearly understood this.
Now, let me just first start by suggesting that you are quoting my answer to another poster out of context. The poster asked if going to Lourdes was the only way to receive a plenary indulgence. That was the focus of my answer, not whether or not indulgences were proper in the first place.
As to your comments, let me point out that Sola Scriptura is a Satanic deception. Everyone gets to have their own interpretation of the bible, so we end up with thousands of denominations and each of them are in some way wrong. We have no way to tell whether the baptists are more accurate than the presbyterians, etc.
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RE: Pope Announces New Indulgence - 12/14/2007 8:25:51 AM
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earthless
Posts: 6274
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: where pigeons are wearing sweaters....
Status: online
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quote:
ORIGINAL: martyfran
quote:
ORIGINAL: Ezra
quote:
Certainly, going to Lourdes is not the only way to obtain a plenary indulgence. There are many ways to obtain such an indulgence. For example, one can obtain a plenary indulgence by devoutly reading scripture for a half hour. What the Pope is doing is adding one option to a list of many options, so to answer your question, no, nobody will be penalized in any way if they don't go to Lourdes.
The real issue is not partial or plenary indulgences. It is the Satanic deception regarding purgatory, indulgences, and Lourdes. All of this is actually an attack against the truth of the Gospel. The Catholic Church preaches "another gospel". And it is high time that all Christians clearly understood this.
Now, let me just first start by suggesting that you are quoting my answer to another poster out of context. The poster asked if going to Lourdes was the only way to receive a plenary indulgence. That was the focus of my answer, not whether or not indulgences were proper in the first place.
As to your comments, let me point out that Sola Scriptura is a Satanic deception. Everyone gets to have their own interpretation of the bible, so we end up with thousands of denominations and each of them are in some way wrong. We have no way to tell whether the baptists are more accurate than the presbyterians, etc.
Scripture interprets Scripture. Context is king and the Bible outlines what are the core essentials of Christianity. The essentials that all Christians are to agree on and what is the line of demarcation between what is Christian and what is of the kingdom of the cults.
We do have a way to tell who is accurate - it is called the Bible.
And what is even more funny and ironic about your claim is that in the grand scheme of things, the RCC is the last organization that should be talking about accuracy.
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Probing Today's Religious Movements | Promoting Doctrinal Discernment & Critical Thinking | Providing Reasons for Christian Faith & Ethics
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RE: Pope Announces New Indulgence - 12/14/2007 8:39:17 AM
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kmangel
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quote:
ORIGINAL: martyfran
As to your comments, let me point out that Sola Scriptura is a Satanic deception.
Nope, you got to start and finish with the Bible. Otherwise you can make up any old religion you want--and many have.
_____________________________
Heaven goes by favor. If it went by merit, you would stay out and your dog would go in.
--Mark Twain
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RE: Pope Announces New Indulgence - 12/14/2007 8:46:53 AM
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Soxfan
Posts: 1491
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: Connecticut
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quote:
ORIGINAL: martyfran
As to your comments, let me point out that Sola Scriptura is a Satanic deception.
I think the Word of God beg to differ with RCC fantasies:
Rev 22:18 -
"I warn everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: If anyone adds anything to them, God will add to him the plagues described in this book."
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"This would be the first step in apostasy; men first forget the true, and then adore the false.".......C.H. Spurgeon
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RE: Pope Announces New Indulgence - 12/14/2007 9:47:16 AM
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rcjames
Posts: 5693
Joined: 7/15/2005
From: Oklahoma
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Lurker
Yeah, we've been over this EXACT same argument over and over again in the "Why do we need a Pope?" thread.
Short answer, Jesus spoke Aramaic, in Aramaic He said, "You are Kephas, and upon this Kepha I will build my Church." Note, "Kephas" is sometimes called "Cephas" in the scriptures.
Nice try, but still doesn't fly.
The indulgences for a trip to Lourdes is just more marketing and promotion of Maryism over serving our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.
Thanks
RC
_____________________________
Just a country Preacher's humble opinion
Read the first chapter of my latest book here;
http://www.deliveranceofsara.com
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RE: Pope Announces New Indulgence - 12/14/2007 2:50:13 PM
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Papa-san
Posts: 995
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Stephanos
Corruption is in EVERY Christian denomination. It is a result of sin. No Christian denomination is perfect and ALL have flaws INCLUDING corruption in the leadership and structure of their leadership.
Unless you who attack the RCC are willing to use the SAME language towards the SBC, PCUSA, United Methodists, Assemblies of God, Church of Christ, Baptist General Conference, Anglican/Episcopal, Lutheran and every other denomination here in America and across the world; I suggest you shut your mouth in terms of salvation or the need to be "born again". Do we have disagreements about doctrine? Yes! But the bible is quite clear. The ONLY requirement for salvation is a belief in Christ Jesus as God in the flesh who came to this earth to be a living sacrifice for our sins, and that He rose from the grave, defeating death and sin for those who believe in Him. NO WHERE in the bible does it say you have to believe in a particular denomination, or believe in particular secondary doctrines.
This is one of the BIGGEST problems I have with the Protestant church. Many look at the faults of the RCC, but refuse to look in their OWN church. You claim corruption elsewhere, but what in HIS name are you doing about the corruption in YOUR OWN CHURCH!
There is no corruption in my church...
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RE: Pope Announces New Indulgence - 12/14/2007 3:16:24 PM
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Odeliya
Posts: 2408
Joined: 8/10/2005
Status: online
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Wonderful work and good succinct summary, Earthless in this post
Short, informative and to the point.
You rock, Earthie!
_____________________________
Proverbs XI:14 Where no counsel is, the people fall: but in the multitude of counselors there is safety.
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RE: Pope Announces New Indulgence - 12/14/2007 3:28:59 PM
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Odeliya
Posts: 2408
Joined: 8/10/2005
Status: online
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Acts29
Did the Pope give any reasons why he thought the RC people needed a new indulgence?
How many indulgences are available and why?
makes two of us- i would love to hear that as well.
Gentemen from C camp, with all due respect, could you please give an explanation about need for Ind. without sending us to the links?
Not that i am uncapable to comprehend cath encycl., but.. Their explanations are not really informative but rather allows for many possible meanings.
Prez. campaign statements, used car salesmen rationale,some marriage proposals , business contracts, and other journalistic pieces like my explanation of visa bill charges to my parents usually empoy this same presentation technique - multiworded legalese hiding the essence in the massive amount of convoluted demagoguery.
You are very intelligent people , can you explain it in simple, one or two paragraph post? Pretty please.
Dear Lurker, before I fall into a sin of pride believing I cornered you, please answer if you do know why did you say that Pope has authority on people's salvation?
_____________________________
Proverbs XI:14 Where no counsel is, the people fall: but in the multitude of counselors there is safety.
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RE: Pope Announces New Indulgence - 12/14/2007 3:32:55 PM
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Odeliya
Posts: 2408
Joined: 8/10/2005
Status: online
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Odeliya
You rock, Earthie!
 well..not in a sense you are that rock, of course.. but actually if we comb your hair, redress you and generally doll you up...Can you master a smarter, a bit holier look on your face? Then you might pass for that rock.
_____________________________
Proverbs XI:14 Where no counsel is, the people fall: but in the multitude of counselors there is safety.
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