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RE: Nude Resorts or Beaches - 5/8/2008 5:24:12 PM
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SonClad
Posts: 37
Joined: 10/17/2006
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quote:
ORIGINAL: SonClad
My comments in posts 245, 246, 249 and 250 may have been overlooked as we've quickly progressed to another page. Any thoughts on these? I was hoping they didn't get overlooked.
Genwall - yes, you are correct in saying I was off by one in my numbering of the posts; thanks.
quote:
ORIGINAL: gengwall
quote:
ORIGINAL: SonClad
Thanks genwall - that's precisely what I've been saying. There are certain situations where nudity IS modest and chaste. There are some that just can't conceive of it and insist that there must be some sexual element involved, but I speak from experience and know it is possible to dissassociate sexuality from nudity in a social setting - just like one would at the doctor.
What naturists I have talked to have said is that they respond to sexuality via the function of the human body, not the form; that their spouses are "sexy" to them because they act sexy in intimate settings, not because of the simple existence of their actual physical bits and pieces. Since others in the community are not "functioning" sexually in group settings, they are not perceived sexually. One's spouse "brings" sexuality into the marriage by actions, not simply because of the physical fact they have certain parts. Would you concur with this perspective?
I would concur with this. I am not 'turned on' by those at the park that my family visits (not that there aren't attractive people). It's just that it isn't the proper place/scenario for such thoughts - the proper place is in the privacy of the bedroom with my wife only (happily married for 20 years by the way and we are faithful to each other - she laughed at some of the 'I wouldn't want to be the wife of a naturist' comments made earlier as they were completely false). Seeing others nude in a naturist setting is like seeing a bunch of people walking around with bare feet, but instead of seeing 'body parts' one learns to see the whole person. After a while, you pay little attention to the fact that you're nude per se - it just feels natural and enjoyable like walking through the grass bare foot. One also learns to accept people in all shapes, sizes, colors, ages, etc... - they're all people and although some might be in better shape, it's really the inner person that shines through. Behavior of a sexual overtone is shunned (as it should be).
< Message edited by SonClad -- 5/8/2008 5:43:22 PM >
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RE: Nude Resorts or Beaches - 5/8/2008 6:01:42 PM
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gengwall
Posts: 213
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: MN
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: SonClad
I would concur with this. I am not 'turned on' by those at the park that my family visits (not that there aren't attractive people). It's just that it isn't the proper place/scenario for such thoughts - the proper place is in the privacy of the bedroom with my wife only (happily married for 20 years by the way and we are faithful to each other - she laughed at some of the 'I wouldn't want to be the wife of a naturist' comments made earlier as they were completely false). Seeing others nude in a naturist setting is like seeing a bunch of people walking around with bare feet, but instead of seeing 'body parts' one learns to see the whole person. After a while, you pay little attention to the fact that you're nude per se - it just feels natural and enjoyable like walking through the grass bare foot. One also learns to accept people in all shapes, sizes, colors, ages, etc... - they're all people and although some might be in better shape, it's really the inner person that shines through. Behavior of a sexual overtone is shunned (as it should be).
This has been what I have been told over and over. Is it not true that the lack of sexual "overtone" is a major factor keeping the proper persepctive in the proper place? I have had naturists tell me that they actually dread sometimes returning to the clothed world, in particular, to their churches, because they are suddenly thrown back into a world of 24/7 sexual overtones. What have been your experiences in making the transition when returning from your get-aways?
This is, of course, the godly approach to interpersonal relations. God tells us clearly in 1 Samuel 16:7 that the correct approach (although not the typical "fleshly" approach) is to look at the heart of people instead of making judgements based on their outside appearance.
I find it semi-humerous when people make statements like "Eve must have been the most beautiful woman ever". How presumptuous of us. We have no idea what Eve looked like, and for all we know, by our standards she may have been a real dog. But that made no difference to Adam because it wasn't her outsides that made her his perfect compliment and brought about oneness. Adams exclamation of joy when presented with Eve was all about her heart and soul; it appears the particular size and shape of her body was irrelevant to him.
People love to talk about the Proverbs 31 woman but they are not aware, it seems, that verse 30 is an integral part of the passage. We all know the verse, but few actually get the connection to the "perfect" woman: "Charm is deceptive, and beauty is fleeting; but a woman who fears the Lord is to be praised". What makes the Proverbs 31 woman so special? Well, one thing we know does not make her special is her body. The list of attributes of this "perfect" woman is long and impressive but "hot babe" not only isn't in the list but such prioritization is actually preached against.
The reality is there is no such thing as the perfect body in God's eyes. Certainly, the general design is perfect, but the individual models of varying shapes and sizes are all equally beautiful to God. Although, as many have pointed out, we live in a fallen world, that does not preclude us from seeking godliness in our daily lives. I wish I was mature enough in my walk and in concert enough with my eyes and mind that I could have a better approach to the human body and a less fleshly inclination when interacting with women. I am continually encouraged that God does not want me to stay where I am at, and continues to work on me to become "blind" to the things that satan would want to distract me and trip me up with.
< Message edited by gengwall -- 5/8/2008 6:11:53 PM >
_____________________________
DOGBERRY on posters:
They have committed false report;
moreover, they have spoken untruths;
secondarily, they are slanders;
sixth and lastly, they have belied;
thirdly, they have verified unjust things;
and, to conclude, they are lying knaves
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RE: Nude Resorts or Beaches - 5/8/2008 6:49:33 PM
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SonClad
Posts: 37
Joined: 10/17/2006
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: gengwall
quote:
ORIGINAL: SonClad
I would concur with this. I am not 'turned on' by those at the park that my family visits (not that there aren't attractive people). It's just that it isn't the proper place/scenario for such thoughts - the proper place is in the privacy of the bedroom with my wife only (happily married for 20 years by the way and we are faithful to each other - she laughed at some of the 'I wouldn't want to be the wife of a naturist' comments made earlier as they were completely false). Seeing others nude in a naturist setting is like seeing a bunch of people walking around with bare feet, but instead of seeing 'body parts' one learns to see the whole person. After a while, you pay little attention to the fact that you're nude per se - it just feels natural and enjoyable like walking through the grass bare foot. One also learns to accept people in all shapes, sizes, colors, ages, etc... - they're all people and although some might be in better shape, it's really the inner person that shines through. Behavior of a sexual overtone is shunned (as it should be).
This has been what I have been told over and over. Is it not true that the lack of sexual "overtone" is a major factor keeping the proper persepctive in the proper place? I have had naturists tell me that they actually dread sometimes returning to the clothed world, in particular, to their churches, because they are suddenly thrown back into a world of 24/7 sexual overtones. What have been your experiences in making the transition when returning from your get-aways?
I would say that is very true from my experience. Returning to the textile world necessitates dealing with attitudes that have been temporarily set aside during one's time outside of the sexual overtones that are generally accepted as "normal" in the textile world. Church folks, in particular can be rather prudish at times in this regard, thinking that such shameful attitudes about the body are a positive thing. It is especially noticeable when one has spent more than a few hours, say more than a day (camping or whatever) and then must put on clothing. Many of our naturist friends comment on this being the worst part of the day. It is also quite interesting to run into naturist friends out in the 'textile world' - sometimes they are not readily recognizable and it just seems odd to see them clothed! This has happened on several occasions and we just all laugh, but it is always good to get together again in a more natural environment and be free of such artificial constraints. There is definitely a social barrier that is done away with in the naturist environment and my wife and I prefer it. We have found public beaches to be far more sexually-stimulating than any naturist setting and my wife now hates to visit a public beach for that reason.
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RE: Nude Resorts or Beaches - 5/9/2008 10:29:32 AM
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gengwall
Posts: 213
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: MN
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[Edit - Read what I wrote here if you like, but SonClad's post immediately following says it much better and much more graciously. So, if you don't have a lot of time, read his post for sure.]
quote:
ORIGINAL: phosadaud
I'm not going to respond to everything written here because if you all read back, I have addressed it all ad nauseum over this thread and I'm kind of tired of repeating myself. The same arguments keep getting made and repeating them over and over isn't going to make them true. However, for those who think some of us are presumptious in saying that everyone struggles with temptation - we are not being arrogant. This is what Scripture tells us:
We have all sinned.
There is no temptation that has seized us that isn't common to man.
No one is free from the sinful nature.
No one is perfect.
If you'd like me to list verses, I can, but I would hope that if you have studied nudity in Scripture so intensely, that you would have studied Scriptures that aren't concerned with nudity as well....
I seriously can't comprehend how anyone can honestly think they are so much "better" than pretty much the rest of the world.... 
You are correct in general but have yet to demonstrate how being in a naturist setting makes any particular person "'worse' than pretty much the rest of the world" or more inclined to fall into sexual sin. It may make you, phosadaud, a worse or more sinful person, but you are not every man. Unless your list of verses substantiates your specific accusation against naturists, you can keep it to yourself because nobody disagrees with your four conclusions about our sin nature. But just because the temptations that DO seize an individual are common ones, it does not follow that every individual is seized by every common temptation, or that an individual is seized by the same mix of temptations and to the same degree as any other individual. What you fail to recognize or address is the reality that temptational paradigms differ from person to person. As we have said "ad nauseum over this thread", just because you can't deal with the naked human body with pure intentions doesn't that nobody can.
There is a fundimental difference in the arguments of the two sides, both of whom are "repeating them over and over ". If you are against naturism, your argument is that everyone views the naked human body as you do. In fact, you deny the possibility that anyone might be able to view it differently than you. We are all clones of each other in terms of lust and temptation and anyone who claims to have a different persepctive is a liar. Conversely, if you are supporting naturism, your argument is that, although we all live in a fallen world, everybody is a unique individual, influenced in terms of lust and temptation by both their nature and their experience. The naturist recognizes that different people are impacted by and deal with different temptations differently. They respect the non-naturist's reluctance to "play with fire" and their subsequent desire to stay clothed. Although they wish everyone could be like them (BTW - the more godly perspective), they know the reality. All they ask is that they be respected in kind, and that others would refrain from baseless and unscriptural condemnations. In a word, they expect a little "grace" out of their brothers and sisters.
So, are we all undifferentiated robots or are we each a unique, one-of-a-kind creation of God? Seems a no brainer to me.
A reasonable parallel to this discussion is alcohol. There are many Christians who will claim acohol is sinful, period, end of discussion. They have no scriptural basis for this condemnation, but they know it is sinful for them and so they assume it is sinful for everyone. You can point out to them that alcohol itself is not condemned in the bible and that it is even viewed in a positive context in several passages, but it doesn't faze them in the least. They are convinced that the entire world is impacted and tempted by alcohol to the same degree and therefore it simply can never, never, be right.
You also have Christians who have succumbed to "the demon drink" and know full well its dangers. If they have overcome thier idolatry to alcohol, they know that that is not a place they can return to safely. They shun alcohol completely, not because they believe it is inherently wrong, but because they know it is wrong for them. They don't deny that others can handle the occassional drink without falling like they did. Often, rather than standing on the sidelines, they proactively work to help others, including those in the first group mentioned, understand the temptations that alcohol presents. Sometimes that is very frustrating work. And, of course, they help those who have likewise fallen to recover as they have.
You also have Christians with no pratical experience with alcohol and no desire to gain any. They too do not consider alcohol inherently sinful, but have no interest in trying it out themselves. They truly are not tempted (in any tangible sense) by the alure of alcohol. They also don't deny that others can handle the occassional drink without falling.
And then, of course, we have the occassional drinkers. Some have always had a balanced perspective on alcohol and have never had the inclination to abuse it. Others may have abused it at one time in life but have matured to the point where they now can handle it (count me as one of them). They don't "have" to have a drink, but they know there is no biblical mandate preventing them from having a drink if they so desire. Often, they have to suffer the baseless attacks of the first group of Christians. Occassionally, they get the opportunity to educate their less enlightened, less scripturally educated, log eyed brothers and sisters.
Folks - this is exactly what we have going on here. Same groups, different temptation. Yes, everyone is sexually tempted in one way or another and everyone has stumbles along the way. Some even fall big time (count me in that group). Like the alcoholics above, they have learned that sexual temptation is a big hook for them and therefore, rightly, proactively avoid putting themselves in situations where they know they are the most vulnerable (I won't be camping with SonClad anytime soon). But they also recognize that everyone does not struggle as they do. In fact, some people struggle very little with sexual temptations. I didn't say they don't struggle at all. But that area is just not one that impacts them in a tangible way. As such, they can move freely in waters that others of us would not even stick our big toe into.
We are all different and different temptations impact us each in different ways, some overwhelmingly, and some virtually not at all. But remember - temptation is not sin. If you could prove that naturists universally and unfailingly fall into sexual sin because of the generic sexual temptation the naked human body presents, then you might have an argument. But you will never prove it because it simply isn't true. Even the bible tells me that in its dealings with nudity (and temptation in general). The reality is that your position about the naturist's view and reaction to the naked human body has no basis in fact, no basis in scripture, and even contradicts scripture. Your conclusions about temptation in general are correct, but your tunnel-visioned treatment of this particular temptation is as unjustifiable as it would be if the subject were alcohol or dancing or movies or music or money or food or, frankly, clothing choices. These are all inherently benign things that never-the-less hold temptations "that are common to man", but we are not all uniformly lured or even "seized" by those temptations.
< Message edited by gengwall -- 5/9/2008 1:47:32 PM >
_____________________________
DOGBERRY on posters:
They have committed false report;
moreover, they have spoken untruths;
secondarily, they are slanders;
sixth and lastly, they have belied;
thirdly, they have verified unjust things;
and, to conclude, they are lying knaves
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RE: Nude Resorts or Beaches - 5/9/2008 1:09:00 PM
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SonClad
Posts: 37
Joined: 10/17/2006
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: phosadaud
I'm not going to respond to everything written here because if you all read back, I have addressed it all ad nauseum over this thread and I'm kind of tired of repeating myself. The same arguments keep getting made and repeating them over and over isn't going to make them true. However, for those who think some of us are presumptious in saying that everyone struggles with temptation - we are not being arrogant. This is what Scripture tells us:
We have all sinned.
There is no temptation that has seized us that isn't common to man.
No one is free from the sinful nature.
No one is perfect.
If you'd like me to list verses, I can, but I would hope that if you have studied nudity in Scripture so intensely, that you would have studied Scriptures that aren't concerned with nudity as well....
I seriously can't comprehend how anyone can honestly think they are so much "better" than pretty much the rest of the world....
Please do not misunderstand phosadaud - I am not saying I am "better" than anyone - certainly not! I do not deny that we all sin either. What I am saying is that we are called to be holy for we are children of God. We are called to be a light to the world - I think we can all agree on that, but what does that look like with respect to the topic at hand?
Before the fall, when everything was as God intended it to be, people were not clothed and God declared all of it to be "very good". That tells me that His intention all along was for us to have a healthy (unshamed) view of our nude bodies among other things. Then something went wrong. The purpose of Christ dying on the cross was to reverse the damage and when Jesus said "it is finished", his work was complete - there is now no condemnation and no shame for those that are in Christ. Notice how God even ripped the temple curtain completely open when Jesus died - quite symbolic. This reconciliatory action includes nudity - we are totally reconciled and should no longer cling to shame. We are a new creation and no longer need to hide, yet many Christians hold to the notion that morality is somehow woven into the fabric of our clothes and that will prevent lusting. That is adding something to the saving work of Christ.
If we are in Christ, we should not adhere to the world's views on matters like nudity (which is severely twisted by the world). We need to see it as God does. Go back to how it was in the Garden to understand His view of nudity - it was (and remains) a good thing. It is a gift that has been abused far too long by the media, etc., to the point that even well-meaning Christians have bought into the idea that nudity is supposed to be a shameful thing; and worse - that this shameful attitude toward the body is somehow a good thing! Shame is an indicator that we are not right with God in some area of our life. This idea that shame of our bodies is a good thing is the lie of Satan and it has been intertwined with pornography in these later years to entangle many people, including many Christians.
Naturism by itself is not the answer, although I do believe it can help by driving a wedge into the misconception that nudity and sex are inseparable and that any form of nudity is lewd. Yes, I have searched the Scriptures on the topic; and yes, I have studied the Bible for years on other topics (prophecy for instance) - I have been a believer for over 30 years. The unbelieving naturist field is ripe for harvest, yet as Christians many fail to recall that Jesus went to spend time eating with sinners and tax collectors. We are called to go into whatever field God sends us and this is one field that my wife and I have felt led to go and talk with those who will listen.
However, the key point I'd like to make is that these people are not lost because they enjoy being nude in a non-sexual social setting (nor are Christians sinning by going there); they are lost because they don't know Jesus. Christian folks with a mindset against all forms of nudity tend to focus on the fact that we live in a fallen world - 'we're in it so we might as well accept it'. It is true that we live in it, but Jesus has overcome the world! We needn't live as fallen beings any longer - and in fact we are called to be godly with the help of Christ. Many unbelieving naturists have a dismal view of Christianity because of the prudishness they've encountered by some Christians. And in some ways (albeit less important than salvation), they have a more healthy understanding about nudity than many Christians. God never told Adam and Eve that they should cover up - clothing was humanity's idea, but God provided a more suitable form of protection for the thorns and thistles they would now need to endure. God's provision of animal skins was two-fold: a blood sacrifice was made (1 or more animals killed presumably by God Himself) to atone for their sins and it was a provision of grace. God never commanded that they cover themselves, nor that they remain clothed - this is being read into the text.
As a comparative side note: I ride a Harley with the Christian Motorcyclists Association (CMA). Part of the mission of CMA is to reach bikers who don't know Jesus. This means going places that have some raunchy scenes like biker rallies and being a light. There is often nudity (and even worse). This is not the type of nudity that I approve of as it is more on a pornographic level - it is meant to entice and excite; very different than a naturist setting. But if CMA doesn't reach out there, who will? Would you go?
I've noticed something interesting when I'm wearing my black leathers. Despite that "Christian" is clealy evident on my back and front, many church folks have difficulty getting past the sterotypical notions of a Harley biker - quite similar in some ways to the naturist sterotype, but in one case, I'm completely dressed in leather and the other in my own skin. Either way, some church folks just have trouble if others are different.
< Message edited by SonClad -- 5/9/2008 5:56:42 PM >
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