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RE: A Matter of Color... Skin Color - One Stop Thread - 7/8/2008 7:58:22 PM
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PaleHawkWoman
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quote:
ORIGINAL: rcjames
quote:
ORIGINAL: PhunkD
quote:
But most of the Native Americas are getting ther come-upance (at least here in Oklsahoma) one pull at a time on their slot machines from the evil oberbearing white man.
Thanks
RC
Um. Not the dead ones.
Those who own casinos are the decendants of a fraction of the original population, many of whom were killed, or sent to boarding schools (motto: kill the indian, save the man) that attempted to destroy culture (too often through sexual abuse).
I wouldn't call this "come-uppance."
Reconciliation might not be possible, given the extent of our (I am speaking as a white American) sin. Admitting our guilt is probably a good first step.
So what would "Admitting our guilt" do fore those that are dead indians for they are either in Heaven and the past doesn't matter, or they are wishing they would have listened to the "White Man's Missionaries".
Thanks
RC
Admission of sin, present and past, is required in the Bible as part of reconciling people one with another, as well as reconciling with God.
In 2nd Samuel, King David- the mightiest man in the Middle East at that time- humbled himself before the Gibeonites and confessed Israel's sin against them despite the fact that it had been in the reign of Saul, not David, when the 400 yr-old treaty between Israel and the Gibeonites had been broken and all but a remnant of the Gibeonites massacred. David took responsibility for the sins of a previous generation and asked what was needed to make things right with this tiny remnant of a conquered people, and he did exactly what was asked by turning over the last seven male descendents of Saul(except Jonathan's son Mephibosheth, who was crippled and unable to marry under the Law) to be killed as vengeance for the Gibeonites.
God had brought famine upon the land during David's reign because of Israel's sin against the Gibeonites even tho it was Saul who ordered the annihilation of these Caananite people. It was Saul who broke the treaty made between the Gibeonites and the Hebrews as they were conquering Caanan,never mind the fact the Gibeonites used deception to get the Hebrews to enter into the treaty. To God, a treaty is a sacred oath which is to be kept until both parties agree to disolve it. Whoever breaks a treaty sins not just against the other party/parties but against God as well.
So God did not withhold His judgement against Israel even tho those who broke the treaty and those who killed the Gibeonites were all dead. He did not withhold His judgement during David's reign despite the fact that David was a man after God's own heart. And David did what was right in the eyes of the Lord- he went to the Gibeonites, humbled himself before them as king of the nation and people who had sinned against them, and asked what he needed to do to make things right(reconcile) with them so that they would bless the land and the famine would end.
This nation has not humbled itself before Native Americans, publically confessed its sins against us and the 1500 treaties it has repeatedly violated, nor asked what it needs to do to make things right with us. Neither this nation nor the Church-which has been complicit with the gov't in those sins- has done what is needed to form a lasting relationship with us so that we can corporately confess our sins against one another and thus begin the reconcilation process as required by God's Law and Jesus' commanments and teachings.
As far as listening to the whiteman's missionaries, those missionaries often abused our women and young girls, helped the gov't to cheat us, and staffed the gov't boarding schools where our children were taken from us at gunpoint, held for years, physically/verbally/sexually abused, and 25% "disappeared" or were murdered, and told every day that God hated them because they were Indians. No matter how much Natives tried to accomodate the white man it was never enough- we were still "savages", "heathens", "dirty Indians", and treated worse than dogs. We weren't even considered human beings until 1924 when the notion that we should be made citizens of our native land was brought up in congress-mostly because of the outstanding military service by Native American soldiers during WWI- including radio transmission by Cherokee, Choctaw, Creek, and other Indians to ensure that the Germans could not understand the communications between the Allied forces and thus thwart Allied actions.
The church has yet to admit that we are the elder brother in this land, let alone even consider us who are believers full brothers in the Body of Christ. Nor has the church even bothered to find out what our traditional beliefs actually are so as to see what we have known of the Almighty. No, we have been condemned as pagans so as to justify being pushed off the land and mistreated. On most reservations, the missionaries who staff the churches do not live on the rez, do not open the doors of the church except for Sunday services, do not go out into the community to make friends or seek out the elders, do not help those in crisis, and do not attend any tribal functions. In short, they do not establish a relationship with the people they are supposed to be serving and reaching for Christ. Then they complain about "hard ground" and how resisitant to the Gospel Indians are when they themselves have been hard ground and resistant to us.
All the people groups and classes here need to reconcile one to another, and the church itself has to participate in that reconciliation for its own sins. To do that, people have to reach out and seek to form right relationship with each other.
Without relationship, there is no reconciliation. Without reconciliation, the wrongs are not set right and there is nothing to turn away God's wrath. If He brought judgement down on Israel, which was the apple of His eye, then what right has America to think that He will withhold His judgement on us?
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RE: A Matter of Color... Skin Color - One Stop Thread - 7/8/2008 9:06:28 PM
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SonInMe1
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How about good old fashioned...forgiveness?
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James 4:4
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RE: A Matter of Color... Skin Color - One Stop Thread - 7/8/2008 9:31:15 PM
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PhunkD
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quote:
ORIGINAL: deliveredarling
quote:
Reconciliation might not be possible, given the extent of our (I am speaking as a white American) sin. Admitting our guilt is probably a good first step.
What am I guilty of that I need to admit to? I didn't make those choices way back when. I am not responsible for those choices people made then either. What was done is done. We absolutely can not change the past. What we can change is how we do things today! i am not a racist, nor does skin color even effect me. I find hate crimes absolutely atrocious. On that same scale is the mentality is that we owe people something for the sins of our fathers. As long as this mentality remains, racism will still exist. Alot of racism exist within the mind. People growing up hearing about how bad such and such group is and what they did. We change how and what we say to our kids now, that generation will not face the same racial issues we have been battling for years. The change starts with each one of us and accepting our own responsibility for spreading love, not hate.
As long as you haven't benefited from the disenfrachisement, relocation, and genocide of native peoples, you have nothing to apologize for.
But I seriously doubt you haven't benefited.
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RE: A Matter of Color... Skin Color - One Stop Thread - 7/8/2008 9:33:49 PM
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PhunkD
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quote:
ORIGINAL: SonInMe1
How about good old fashioned...forgiveness?
Forgiveness would be great, but we ought to admitting guilt is part of asking for forgiveness.
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RE: A Matter of Color... Skin Color - One Stop Thread - 7/8/2008 10:21:02 PM
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DenimDiva
Posts: 6076
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From: CA
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quote:
ORIGINAL: deliveredarling
quote:
Reconciliation might not be possible, given the extent of our (I am speaking as a white American) sin. Admitting our guilt is probably a good first step.
What am I guilty of that I need to admit to? I didn't make those choices way back when. I am not responsible for those choices people made then either. What was done is done. We absolutely can not change the past. What we can change is how we do things today! i am not a racist, nor does skin color even effect me. I find hate crimes absolutely atrocious. On that same scale is the mentality is that we owe people something for the sins of our fathers. As long as this mentality remains, racism will still exist. Alot of racism exist within the mind. People growing up hearing about how bad such and such group is and what they did. We change how and what we say to our kids now, that generation will not face the same racial issues we have been battling for years. The change starts with each one of us and accepting our own responsibility for spreading love, not hate.
That's what I was thinking!
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RE: A Matter of Color... Skin Color - One Stop Thread - 7/8/2008 10:22:55 PM
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DenimDiva
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quote:
ORIGINAL: PhunkD
quote:
ORIGINAL: deliveredarling
quote:
Reconciliation might not be possible, given the extent of our (I am speaking as a white American) sin. Admitting our guilt is probably a good first step.
What am I guilty of that I need to admit to? I didn't make those choices way back when. I am not responsible for those choices people made then either. What was done is done. We absolutely can not change the past. What we can change is how we do things today! i am not a racist, nor does skin color even effect me. I find hate crimes absolutely atrocious. On that same scale is the mentality is that we owe people something for the sins of our fathers. As long as this mentality remains, racism will still exist. Alot of racism exist within the mind. People growing up hearing about how bad such and such group is and what they did. We change how and what we say to our kids now, that generation will not face the same racial issues we have been battling for years. The change starts with each one of us and accepting our own responsibility for spreading love, not hate.
As long as you haven't benefited from the disenfrachisement, relocation, and genocide of native peoples, you have nothing to apologize for.
But I seriously doubt you haven't benefited.
Only half of my relatives where here then. The "other side" didn't arrive until the early 1900s.
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RE: A Matter of Color... Skin Color - One Stop Thread - 7/8/2008 11:34:32 PM
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PhunkD
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But what about you? Where do you live? Was that ground ever tribal land? If so, how did it come into your possession?
And so what if only half your family was here at the time? If I only inherit blood money from one half of my family, I am still inheriting blood money, right?
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RE: A Matter of Color... Skin Color - One Stop Thread - 7/8/2008 11:35:46 PM
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PhunkD
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Regardless of any one of our personal benefits, as a nation, we have profited from the demise of Native people, and we need to repent. PalehawkWoman expalined it pretty well.
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RE: A Matter of Color... Skin Color - One Stop Thread - 7/9/2008 7:54:52 AM
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deliveredarling
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The way I see this issue is we all have serious tragedies in our history. Things that should not have been. The human race has never been perfect. The more we focus on the sins of our fathers the more WE refuse to move forward. To harbor ill feelings for an entire life because of something that happen before you even existed, is a very unhealthy state. I bear no guilt for the sins of my fathers. I don't share their mentality, so what good would it do for me to try and make something right that I didn't do wrong to begin with. Those people who did these things are dead and gone. They can not be held responsible for their actions. Those of us here and now have no reason to be held responsible for THEIR past sins. That's on the verge of ridiculous.
While I know the history of the Indians, the slaves, the Jews, I acknowledge and respect the tragedies done to them. I have read about to many "overcomers", who walked right out of a terrible situation and used them for good. To educate against hate, rather than continue the process of hate by propagating a lifestyle of victimhood, and the country, the church or whoever owing them something.
Let me ask, what is it you (or anybody, no particular reference intended). are owed? Didn't Christ die for you and PAY your debt? So, How exactly is it that people feel we owe them something. These tragedies and prejudices and racist moves are scene clearly as severe, if not worse in the Bible. So, please, do yourself a favor and the rest of the world too, Let it go and pursue what God would have you do (forgive) and live in peace with Him and others.
Palehawkwoman- You used scripture to back up your argument of repentance of others.
Where is the scripture to back up your need to forgive?
These atrocities have been publicly discussed by senators and congressmen for years. They have acknowledged the mistakes of the forefathers. When will enough be enough to warrant forgiveness? How many times does one have to apologize to receive forgiveness? Do those acknowledgment's and apologies change history? What would need to happen for things to be made right? What would need to be done for the slaves? How about the Jews, even though we did fight a war to free them from Hitler? Do you think that maybe with the Jews, the lessons learned from the Indians and the slaves had some affect on our going to war for the Jews?
_____________________________
"Now no one after lighting a lamp covers it over with a container, or puts it under a bed: but he puts it on a lampstand, in order that those who come in may see the light."
Luke 8:16
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RE: A Matter of Color... Skin Color - One Stop Thread - 7/9/2008 8:48:49 AM
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Qtman
Posts: 10817
Joined: 3/21/2006
From: Crimson Tide Country
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quote:
ORIGINAL: deliveredarling
The way I see this issue is we all have serious tragedies in our history. Things that should not have been. The human race has never been perfect. The more we focus on the sins of our fathers the more WE refuse to move forward. To harbor ill feelings for an entire life because of something that happen before you even existed, is a very unhealthy state. I bear no guilt for the sins of my fathers. I don't share their mentality, so what good would it do for me to try and make something right that I didn't do wrong to begin with. Those people who did these things are dead and gone. They can not be held responsible for their actions. Those of us here and now have no reason to be held responsible for THEIR past sins. That's on the verge of ridiculous.
While I know the history of the Indians, the slaves, the Jews, I acknowledge and respect the tragedies done to them. I have read about to many "overcomers", who walked right out of a terrible situation and used them for good. To educate against hate, rather than continue the process of hate by propagating a lifestyle of victimhood, and the country, the church or whoever owing them something.
Let me ask, what is it you (or anybody, no particular reference intended). are owed? Didn't Christ die for you and PAY your debt? So, How exactly is it that people feel we owe them something. These tragedies and prejudices and racist moves are scene clearly as severe, if not worse in the Bible. So, please, do yourself a favor and the rest of the world too, Let it go and pursue what God would have you do (forgive) and live in peace with Him and others.
Palehawkwoman- You used scripture to back up your argument of repentance of others.
Where is the scripture to back up your need to forgive?
These atrocities have been publicly discussed by senators and congressmen for years. They have acknowledged the mistakes of the forefathers. When will enough be enough to warrant forgiveness? How many times does one have to apologize to receive forgiveness? Do those acknowledgment's and apologies change history? What would need to happen for things to be made right? What would need to be done for the slaves? How about the Jews, even though we did fight a war to free them from Hitler? Do you think that maybe with the Jews, the lessons learned from the Indians and the slaves had some affect on our going to war for the Jews?
Very well said. I am a mix between Scotish, English and Cherokee. So with that in mind I don't owe me anything. As long as people insist on living in the past we will never proceed to the future. What happened is history. It can't be changed. But if we let it go and try we can change today and tomorrow.
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RE: A Matter of Color... Skin Color - One Stop Thread - 7/9/2008 10:26:05 AM
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DenimDiva
Posts: 6076
Joined: 9/28/2007
From: CA
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quote:
ORIGINAL: PhunkD
But what about you? Where do you live? Was that ground ever tribal land? If so, how did it come into your possession?
And so what if only half your family was here at the time? If I only inherit blood money from one half of my family, I am still inheriting blood money, right?
The half that were born here are Native Americans.
Later, I was adopted into a family that also came here in the early 1900s. They bought this little piece of land with hard earned money.
Suggesting that someone apologize for something that their ancestors may or may not have done is ridiculous!
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RE: A Matter of Color... Skin Color - One Stop Thread - 7/9/2008 10:28:11 AM
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rcjames
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quote:
ORIGINAL: PhunkD
But what about you? Where do you live? Was that ground ever tribal land? If so, how did it come into your possession?
And so what if only half your family was here at the time? If I only inherit blood money from one half of my family, I am still inheriting blood money, right?
PhunkD,
Quesstion; Who did the Indians steal the land from?
Thsnks
RC
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RE: A Matter of Color... Skin Color - One Stop Thread - 7/9/2008 1:57:42 PM
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DaveW
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quote:
Suggesting that someone apologize for something that their ancestors may or may not have done is ridiculous! I do not see it as ridiculous. Jesus told a bunch of Pharasees that claimed they were not as bad as their fathers who killed God's prophets to own up to the guilt of their fathers.
I think it is entirely legitimate.
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RE: A Matter of Color... Skin Color - One Stop Thread - 7/9/2008 2:11:53 PM
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deliveredarling
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Rejecting God and reinforcing the past sins of man are two different things. I would think He emphasized more of the forgiveness.
_____________________________
"Now no one after lighting a lamp covers it over with a container, or puts it under a bed: but he puts it on a lampstand, in order that those who come in may see the light."
Luke 8:16
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RE: A Matter of Color... Skin Color - One Stop Thread - 7/9/2008 4:27:34 PM
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Leo71
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Our African ancestors are pretty much just as guilty as those who went abroad for the express purpose of buying their fellow men so as to do a service that they themselves were too lazy to perform. Those Africans in power sold out, those European slave masters bought human merchandise. Which is more evil? Who am I to say? I am not God, but I do know that both parties were definitely in the wrong.
So what about today? Many people have a tendency to sweep so-called racism under the rug, when in fact it still exists in various forms to this day. Sure, there may not be anyone getting their backs beaten to spaghetti, like Kunta Kente, but racism is nowhere near extinct. Anyone who says otherwise obviously doesn't live in the real world.
By that same token, I should not even have to list all the heinous crimes committed in the name of "race." And I'm sick and tired of us even referring to ourselves as different "races," when we are not. Each time I come across the question on a job application wanting to know what "race" I am, I always make it a point to mark "Other" and write Human on the line next to it. Then when the interviewer chuckles about it, as if it's only a joke, I let them know with my expression that is most certainly not.
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What you do today is your future.
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RE: A Matter of Color... Skin Color - One Stop Thread - 7/9/2008 4:31:21 PM
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DenimDiva
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Personally, I don't understand the point of asking some one's race on a job application.
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RE: A Matter of Color... Skin Color - One Stop Thread - 7/9/2008 4:35:26 PM
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Qtman
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quote:
ORIGINAL: DenimDiva
Personally, I don't understand the point of asking some one's race on a job application.
Me either but it is required by law. I once worked for a company and we removed all reference to race from our applications and they made us put it back on because they could not review the records and determine if we were complying with EOC or not.
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RE: A Matter of Color... Skin Color - One Stop Thread - 7/9/2008 11:53:21 PM
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PaleHawkWoman
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quote:
ORIGINAL: rcjames
quote:
ORIGINAL: PhunkD
But what about you? Where do you live? Was that ground ever tribal land? If so, how did it come into your possession?
And so what if only half your family was here at the time? If I only inherit blood money from one half of my family, I am still inheriting blood money, right?
PhunkD,
Quesstion; Who did the Indians steal the land from?
Thsnks
RC
RC, that is disengenuous and I expected better from a preacher. The archeological evidence shows we are the first peoples to live here, in several waves beginnig up to 20,000 yrs ago and maybe even earlier. The Human Genome project found evidence showing that most Native Americans can trace their earliest ancestry to 6 women. There is no DNA evidence of European ancestry for anyone over here going past 1492,and those remains which appear to have Caucasion features, such as Kenniwick Man(dated 9500yrs ago) are anomolies - single remains rather than part of several sets of remains located in a given area with cultural relation verified by archeological evidence or associated artifacts.
I also find the "my ancestors aren't guilty" argument to be a cop out. David wasn't guilty of Sauls' sins but took responsibility for them and made the effort to restore right relationship with those Saul had wronged. Do you stop to think how ridiculous David must have looked to his fellow Hebrews? The mighty warrior-king bowing before bunch of Gibeonites, conquered people disenfranchised from the land and reduced to wood-cutters and menial servants? I'm sure there were folks in Israel whose ancestors "never had anything to do with what happened to those people" and who thought David was shaming himself before the rest of Israel and the surrounding nations by humbling himself as he did. I'm sure there were folks in Israel who thought why should Israel make anything right with the Gibeonites, whom they despised as foreigners in their own land. Yet God did not lift the famine until this reconciliation was done.
And remember, David did not summon the Gibeonites to come to him, he went to them.
Most of us Native folks are shadows to most of y'all, we are not part of your life or even your prayers or thoughts on a daily basis. You do not know us, do not know anything about us except your own popular mythology, and few of you would even think about establishing any sort of a relationship with any of us. The church itself only considers us as an afterthought, and usually to condemn us for the casinos or because we haven't embraced the church, or more specifically we haven't embraced the white man's culture in order to be acceptable to the church. We really haven't rejected Christ - just y'all's position that we have to become like you to conform to Christ's image. From our experience, white folks have done a mighty poor job showing us the image of Christ.
Unlike the Apostles, the church has failed to establish a right relationship with us nor does it welcome us as we are. I refuse to worship anywhere I'm told that I'm welcomed but I have to leave the Indian at the door. I've been in plenty of churches where Natives are made to feel distinctly unwelcomed. Unlike other visitors, no one came to welcome us or introduce themselves, no one invited us to come back. One of my daughters was shunned by her entire Sunday School class... she was the only Native and the only minority period. Her teacher gave the excuse, "Well I thought Nioka preferred to sit by herself." After 18 mos of trying to find a place within this church, that was the last straw and we left.
I've also seen that for most christians, "reconciliation" consists of apologizing and nothing else-no relationship-building, no working together to right the wrongs or heal the wounds, just the church version of wham-bam-thank-you-ma'am- a hit-and-run missiology so white folks can say, "well I did my part, thank God that's over with and I don't have to think about or look at those people again." How can the wounds heal when the transgressors refuse to establish a right relationship with those they transgressed against? I can and have forgiven- us Natives are very forgiving people- but our white brothers have not shown God that they are willing to follow His protocol for reconciling with us. So it's not just us you have to face and reconcile with, God is in the mix too. His plan calls for far more than just forgiveness- He wants a right relation of brotherhood established which allows healing and restoration to take place under guidanceof the Holy Spirit.
And let's not forget, God hold whole nations accountable for the transgressions of a few and going down from generations past until the transgression is righted. So even if your ancestors had nothing to do with what's been done to my people or blacks or the Irish or the Chinese or anyone else who's been treated unjustly, as an American you are still held liable for those sins committed by this country or the colonial fore-fathers. Likewise, the church itself will be held liable for its sins, its complicity in the sins of others, and its failure to make things right with those who have been treated unjustly. The Body of Christ should be leading the way in reconciling people one with another, in addressing injustices past and present, in helping people to heal. Instead it sits and debates with itself over whether it can afford to put that kind of time and money into such an imposing and probably impossible task. After all, a million-dollar addition to the building is ever so much more impressive and comfortable to deal with.
As far as the US Congress's "apology", it was a brief statement of 4 short paragraphs read into the Congressional record when most of the members were out in the hallway taking a break, and which admitted that injustices were committed but also said that such an admission in no way held the US responsible for damages resulting from said injustices and never admitted to committing genocide.
Conversely, the Prime Minister of Australia went on national tv and radio to publicly apologize to the Aborigines for the injustices and genocide committed against them since the first whites set foot on their lands. The apology was also printed in all of the newspapers, and the leaders and elders of the Aborigine tribes were brought at gov't expense to hear the apology in person. They then thanked and blessed the Prime Minister and offered their blessings and foregiveness upon their fellow Australians.
So which of these 2 apologies do you think God will honor? Which one shows a right heart and desire for true reconciliation? Which one has had the greatest effect upon the people of the land?
We are the Elder Brother in this land, with spiritual authority over the land. If you want to see this land cleansed and healed and restored, we have to be part of that. If you fail or refuse to reconcile with us so we can have that right relationship, then none of us can expect God to listen to anyone's prayers and the revival so many have been begging for cannot come. Famine is already upon the land, spiritually and physically. We have been waiting for you... wherefore art thou brother?
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RE: A Matter of Color... Skin Color - One Stop Thread - 7/10/2008 12:03:17 AM
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MrFribbles
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PaleHawkWoman, have you ever heard of the band Five Iron Frenzy?
(I know, this isn't the music forum. But don't worry, it's on topic, really!)
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Reason is the natural order of truth; but imagination is the organ of meaning.
-C. S. Lewis
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RE: A Matter of Color... Skin Color - One Stop Thread - 7/10/2008 12:05:18 AM
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PaleHawkWoman
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Can't say I have. They don't seem to get airplay on the local Christian stations.
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RE: A Matter of Color... Skin Color - One Stop Thread - 7/10/2008 1:06:12 AM
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ironsharpensiron
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Galatians 5:1 states, 'Stand fast therefore in the liberty by which Christ has made us free, and do not be entangled again with a yoke of bondage.'
If I had to bare all the responsibilities from all my ancestors wouldn't I then be under the 'yoke of bondage..?' Jesus came, died for me, so that I would be free from not only my past, but from my ancestors as well.
Through thousands of years there have been some horrific actions from man against man, but I believe my Lord broke those chains from around my wrists! Like Paul, sure there are consequences for my actions presaved that I should and need to be held accountable for, but never for my forefathers.
matthew
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"As iron sharpens iron, so a man sharpens the countenance of his friend." Proverbs 27:17
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RE: A Matter of Color... Skin Color - One Stop Thread - 7/10/2008 1:06:55 AM
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MrFribbles
Posts: 963
Joined: 1/29/2007
From: Hawaii, but I've moved around since then
Status: offline
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quote:
Can't say I have. They don't seem to get airplay on the local Christian stations.
Heh, can't say I'm surprised that they don't get airplay. Most of their songs are... Unconventional.
The reason I brought them up is because they're very strong advocates for making the injustices done to Native Americans known for how horrible they were/are. Their first song on their first album is about that, as a matter of fact. They have a few other songs in some of their other albums, as well. Just thought I'd mention it. : )
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Reason is the natural order of truth; but imagination is the organ of meaning.
-C. S. Lewis
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RE: A Matter of Color... Skin Color - One Stop Thread - 7/10/2008 5:41:02 AM
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SonInMe1
Posts: 3572
Joined: 4/16/2005
From: my mom by God
Status: offline
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quote:
but we ought to admitting guilt
1. Who is we?
2. I have no guilt because I have never done anything to any person of color or ethnicity.
3. I have not asked the people's who conquored Ireland or England to reimburse me or to apologise to me.
4. Would saying I am sorry for something I had no part of...help minorities out today? I am not sure the ones fighting for "equality" just want an apology, legitimate or not.
6. What is keeping any person living wit | | |
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Good point. 
