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RE: A Matter of Color... Skin Color - One Stop Thread - 6/5/2008 8:14:05 PM
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SonInMe1
Posts: 3521
Joined: 4/16/2005
From: my mom by God
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Is there a social pressure upon blacks to speak ebonics for other blacks?
I think so. I have seen it.
There is a lady in my small group who speaks three languages fluently and is a college professor. A very intellegent woman who can speak very well...someone anyone would respect. I am not sure the same can be said of a lady I work with who cannot speak anything but ebonics. A lady who dislikes others of her race who speak plainly.
I understand social pressure to speak in certain ways. I don't understand the prejudice associated with it.
_____________________________
You adulterous people, don't you know that friendship with the world is hatred toward God? Anyone who chooses to be a friend of the world becomes an enemy of God.
James 4:4
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RE: A Matter of Color... Skin Color - One Stop Thread - 6/5/2008 11:48:09 PM
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PaleHawkWoman
Posts: 330
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I was born and raised in the South and can speak both proper English as well as the local dialect. My drawl is not very deep and I most certainly DO NOT sound like folks on the set of Gone With The Wind. Yet when I have gone to other areas of the country, people actually think I'm retarded or ignorant because of my accent... never mind the fact that I AM speaking proper English. I have a degree from an Ivy League university(Vanderbilt), am well-read, and have a wide range of interests and knowledge. Nothing PO's me more than having somebody judge me based upon their own limited knowledge as evidenced in their stereotyping me for where I'm from.
I also hate being stereotyped for my race. Being Native American, I get stereotyped as being lazy, drunk, a whore, stupid, superstitious or pagan, and get some of the dumbest questions you can imagine, like do I live in a tipi or have I ever scalped someone. When I attend church functions, ministry events, or just happen to be talking to another believer it never fails that my faith gets questioned because I happen to be Native and live in the context of my traditional culture. I express my faith in the Creator with prayers and ceremonies passed down for only God knows how many generations, prayers and ceremonies He gave my ancestors when he made us a people. My people have always known who God is, knew of Creator-Son well before 1492, and whose concept of the Creator involved a triune Deity, so we have never been pagans. NOBODY ever questions someone who expresses their Celtic heritage as suspected pagans... and traditional Celtic culture was most definitely pagan.
If I wear my regalia(dress, moccasins, sash belt, knife in beaded sheath, medicine bag, parfleche, and beaded and shell jewelry including a nose ring) and play my hand drum, my faith is called into question. Let someone wear a kilt(regimental even), sporran, gillies, sgan dubh and dagger, and playing the bodhran or pipes- they're just proud of being Scottish or Irish and isn't it great they take such pride in their culture.
Racism in the guise of "spiritual concern" or "Christian unity" is to my mind the worst of all because it violates God's own design for redeeming the nations- not by making us all alike but by bringing us together in Him. I would never chastise another believer over cultural issues, and most especially not when I myself am ignorant of their culture. I would at least make the effort to become familiar with their cultural practices and ask questions like "So how did this ceremony or practice come to be, and how does your community connect to God thru this?" I would listen closely and watch even more closely, and let the Holy Spirit- not my own biases- guide my opinions and my questions.
Paul took the time to find where even the most pagan of peoples had a knowledge of God and then begin teaching the Gospel from that point. He did not tell the Greeks to quit being Greek or the Romans to quit being Romans, and he vehemently argued against gentiles having to become Jewish in culture to be considered "true" believers or worthy of fellowship with Christ. Christ never taught that we have to leave our own sin-stained culture for anyone else's sin-stained culture; He promised salvation for each of us right where we're at, and redemption for each tribe and tongue, each nation.
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RE: A Matter of Color... Skin Color - One Stop Thread - 6/6/2008 9:46:42 AM
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lexie
Posts: 3174
Joined: 6/27/2005
From: Toronto
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Excellent post Pale Hawk Woman.
I can almost tolerate racism in the outside world, I just chalk it up to ignorance. But racism in the church troubles me deeply.
I remember asking my husband if his mother thinks heaven is segregated. This was after she criticized my BIL for baptising me, saying he was only doing it to make up numbers in church and that he shouldn't be doing it all. Never once did she consider that I may actually be getting baptized because I was putting my old self away and turning to Jesus. My husbands response was "it's not that...." and he trailed off. She didn't think I should be in that church. Yes, I'm the only white member in our entire group of churches throughout North America, but what does it matter? Apparently, it's still a big deal to many Christians.
And that is what hurts to me the most, not that these people can't accept me, but that they truly can't accept Christ, because people who have been in the church for decades and still bring this attitude into the sanctuary obviously don't understand the message.
Landabee - I'm like you, I love reading viewpoints different than my own and I seek them out. I feel that they personally help me grow as a person. Dh and I have been able to open each others eyes to differing viewpoints in magnificent ways. But my husband gets mad when I read what other people write because I always have something to say about it  He has a special look for "you're getting too worked up over this honey."
quote:
Is there a social pressure upon blacks to speak ebonics for other blacks?
I think most definitely some people put this pressure upon others. My husband's sisters often criticize another SIL for not speaking patois, and for speaking "white." But, considering she has been here for longer than she was back home, why shouldn't she speak English as it is spoken here if she chooses? Besides that, no matter how you say it, it really is about what you are saying. But then, for these women, much if not all of their life is focused around race.
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RE: A Matter of Color... Skin Color - One Stop Thread - 6/11/2008 7:40:06 AM
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GrahamCracker
Posts: 1962
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From: Dallas, TX
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PaleHawkWoman saidquote:
...My drawl is not very deep and I most certainly DO NOT sound like folks on the set of Gone With The Wind. Yet when I have gone to other areas of the country, people actually think I'm retarded or ignorant because of my accent... never mind the fact that I AM speaking proper English. I have a degree from an Ivy League university(Vanderbilt), am well-read, and have a wide range of interests and knowledge. Nothing PO's me more than having somebody judge me based upon their own limited knowledge as evidenced in their stereotyping me for where I'm from...
There are certain parts of the country where people who speak with pronounced southern accents amost always had less than a high school education. My forebearers largely influenced my speech and I used to be able to switch back and forth at will from a northern dialect to a southern one.
I remember in sixth grade, one of my accents cropped up in the middle of a class discussion. I was laughed to scorn and I had no idea why the entire class was laughing at me. I asked one of my friends who explained it to me.
Like it or not, people will judge us by our speech.
How else could Jeff Foxworthy make a living at capitalizing on its humor?
< Message edited by GrahamCracker -- 6/11/2008 7:46:38 AM >
_____________________________
Larry
Sure we're under the law, everybody knows that!
When He said, "A new covenant," He has made the first obsolete. But whatever is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to disappear. (Heb 10:13)
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RE: A Matter of Color... Skin Color - One Stop Thread - 6/11/2008 10:31:02 AM
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rcjames
Posts: 5229
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From: Oklahoma
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quote:
ORIGINAL: GrahamCracker
How else could Jeff Foxworthy make a living at capitalizing on its humor?
What are you referring to, Foxworthy sounds perfectly normal to me.
Thanks
RC
_____________________________
Just a country Preacher's humble opinion
Read the first chapter of my latest book here;
http://www.deliveranceofsara.com
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RE: A Matter of Color... Skin Color - One Stop Thread - 6/11/2008 11:12:01 AM
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Bro_Shane
Posts: 1084
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quote:
ORIGINAL: lexie
I remember asking my husband if his mother thinks heaven is segregated. This was after she criticized my BIL for baptising me, saying he was only doing it to make up numbers in church and that he shouldn't be doing it all. Never once did she consider that I may actually be getting baptized because I was putting my old self away and turning to Jesus. My husbands response was "it's not that...." and he trailed off. She didn't think I should be in that church. Yes, I'm the only white member in our entire group of churches throughout North America, but what does it matter? Apparently, it's still a big deal to many Christians.
Sad, so very sad.
I have had people make remarks about "those people" (either white, black, hispanic, etc.) and my response is, "If you don't like it here you're going to have a hard time in heaven."
The problem with dialect is that it is so closely tied to stereotype. The Southern drawl and various regional African American dialects seem to be the most looked down on due to this. I have known many black men and women who can go in and out of dialect to standard English, and many Hispanic as well, so well that it is scary.
One thing that bothers me about the whole Ebonics movement is that it tries to put African American regional dialects under the same roof and standardize them in name only when there is just as wide a variance in them as between white regional dilects. Or, it seems to allow anything associated with black speech patterns without any true study of the linguistic history or development. As a lingusitic study I see no problem with it, but to place a stamp on it and tell others to leave it alone because it is "our language" (as I have heard some, not many, but some say) seems to slam the door on any understanding by those outside that linguistic circle.
I have to shut up now. I am a language geek, I could go on about this all day. 
_____________________________
Prayer is not where we change God's mind, it is where He changes ours.
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RE: A Matter of Color... Skin Color - One Stop Thread - 6/11/2008 11:48:50 AM
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GrahamCracker
Posts: 1962
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: Dallas, TX
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quote:
One thing that bothers me about the whole Ebonics movement is that it tries to put African American regional dialects under the same roof and standardize them in name only when there is just as wide a variance in them as between white regional dilects. Or, it seems to allow anything associated with black speech patterns without any true study of the linguistic history or development. As a lingusitic study I see no problem with it, but to place a stamp on it and tell others to leave it alone because it is "our language" (as I have heard some, not many, but some say) seems to slam the door on any understanding by those outside that linguistic circle.
The objection to Ebonics is that some speakers cannot function in a Standard English environment. And their Ebonics speech is defended normal to the extent that they cannot write a decent essay in Standard English. It is as though everyone else should make room for their failure to prepare themselves academically. It hurts them in their attempts at employment and education.
_____________________________
Larry
Sure we're under the law, everybody knows that!
When He said, "A new covenant," He has made the first obsolete. But whatever is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to disappear. (Heb 10:13)
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RE: A Matter of Color... Skin Color - One Stop Thread - 6/11/2008 1:44:28 PM
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Bro_Shane
Posts: 1084
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quote:
ORIGINAL: GrahamCracker
quote:
One thing that bothers me about the whole Ebonics movement is that it tries to put African American regional dialects under the same roof and standardize them in name only when there is just as wide a variance in them as between white regional dilects. Or, it seems to allow anything associated with black speech patterns without any true study of the linguistic history or development. As a lingusitic study I see no problem with it, but to place a stamp on it and tell others to leave it alone because it is "our language" (as I have heard some, not many, but some say) seems to slam the door on any understanding by those outside that linguistic circle.
The objection to Ebonics is that some speakers cannot function in a Standard English environment. And their Ebonics speech is defended normal to the extent that they cannot write a decent essay in Standard English. It is as though everyone else should make room for their failure to prepare themselves academically. It hurts them in their attempts at employment and education.
I agree. This would be my main objection to anything, much less Ebonics. I have seen very intelligent black college students fail miserably in their English courses, and drop out entirely, because they can not pass an English compentcy exam which consists of a five paragraph essay. On the other hand, I have seen many do wonderfully on the same exam and excell in both English and Literature. The argument to favor Ebonics over standard English is akin to making the argument against kearning the terms and jargon of a profession. Could you imagine a doctor in the operating room looking to a nurse and asking, "Hey, could you hand me that do-bob-thing-a-ma-jig over there - you know, the really shiny one?"
_____________________________
Prayer is not where we change God's mind, it is where He changes ours.
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RE: A Matter of Color... Skin Color - One Stop Thread - 6/11/2008 1:50:34 PM
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GrahamCracker
Posts: 1962
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: Dallas, TX
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Bro_Shane
I agree. This would be my main objection to anything, much less Ebonics. I have seen very intelligent black college students fail miserably in their English courses, and drop out entirely, because they can not pass an English compentcy exam which consists of a five paragraph essay. On the other hand, I have seen many do wonderfully on the same exam and excell in both English and Literature. The argument to favor Ebonics over standard English is akin to making the argument against kearning the terms and jargon of a profession. Could you imagine a doctor in the operating room looking to a nurse and asking, "Hey, could you hand me that do-bob-thing-a-ma-jig over there - you know, the really shiny one?"
It reminds me of a radio show I heard a few months ago. It seems that a number of black law students were excelling well in law school because standards were being adjusted for them. Yet when they entered law firms they couldn't make partnership. The same artificial lowering of standards gave them the impression that they had prepared themselves properly and could do well in the real world. The real world didn't care that they were black, that they had come from disadvantaged situations.
Of course, some protested that there was racial bias.
_____________________________
Larry
Sure we're under the law, everybody knows that!
When He said, "A new covenant," He has made the first obsolete. But whatever is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to disappear. (Heb 10:13)
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RE: A Matter of Color... Skin Color - One Stop Thread - 6/11/2008 2:16:06 PM
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Bro_Shane
Posts: 1084
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quote:
ORIGINAL: GrahamCracker
quote:
ORIGINAL: Bro_Shane
I agree. This would be my main objection to anything, much less Ebonics. I have seen very intelligent black college students fail miserably in their English courses, and drop out entirely, because they can not pass an English compentcy exam which consists of a five paragraph essay. On the other hand, I have seen many do wonderfully on the same exam and excell in both English and Literature. The argument to favor Ebonics over standard English is akin to making the argument against kearning the terms and jargon of a profession. Could you imagine a doctor in the operating room looking to a nurse and asking, "Hey, could you hand me that do-bob-thing-a-ma-jig over there - you know, the really shiny one?"
It reminds me of a radio show I heard a few months ago. It seems that a number of black law students were excelling well in law school because standards were being adjusted for them. Yet when they entered law firms they couldn't make partnership. The same artificial lowering of standards gave them the impression that they had prepared themselves properly and could do well in the real world. The real world didn't care that they were black, that they had come from disadvantaged situations.
Of course, some protested that there was racial bias.
College students have enough of a shock when they hit the real world. Letting them think they have been prepared well when you have actually cut their legs off is all too common. I have met plenty of black people who hate, with a white-hot hate, things like this. But, as usual, the vocal few get the press, students are left out to dry, prejudices are fed, people who really try to get ahead are punished for their success, and the liberal and ignorant in our nation's colleges and universities pat themselves on the back for caring and say, "Well, at least we tried."
_____________________________
Prayer is not where we change God's mind, it is where He changes ours.
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RE: A Matter of Color... Skin Color - One Stop Thread - 6/11/2008 2:30:37 PM
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GrahamCracker
Posts: 1962
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From: Dallas, TX
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Unfortunately, the existence of the Real World is regarded as racist. The fact that so many black people are relatively "poor" is supposed to be de facto proof that racism is the cause.
Men seek for ways to justify things for which we do not want to take responsibility. Unfortunately, since we cannot always tell the difference we proceed to bury our heads in the sand. It explains, IMHO, the belief in so many conspiracy theories that about.
I noted that those of Jeremiah Wright's associates sought reparations because it was assumed that white people these days arrived at a middle class position because their forebearers were all slave owners. I don't know what percentage of white Americans descended from slave owners, but most certainly do not benefit and have not benefited from them in recent years.
What holds most of us back these days is either laziness or the advocacy of perpetual victimhood.
_____________________________
Larry
Sure we're under the law, everybody knows that!
When He said, "A new covenant," He has made the first obsolete. But whatever is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to disappear. (Heb 10:13)
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RE: A Matter of Color... Skin Color - One Stop Thread - 6/11/2008 6:49:53 PM
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SonInMe1
Posts: 3521
Joined: 4/16/2005
From: my mom by God
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The only reason why I am not a ceo of a fortune 500 company is because I have red hair. Ever notice few ceo's have read hair? I want the government to investigate this. Its sooooo unfair.
Maybe next year I'll go to a night course on business...but until then I'll wait for this investigation to finish. I am sure I can get into this night school because of my red hair. They will treat me right because I have red hair.
???????????????
_____________________________
You adulterous people, don't you know that friendship with the world is hatred toward God? Anyone who chooses to be a friend of the world becomes an enemy of God.
James 4:4
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RE: A Matter of Color... Skin Color - One Stop Thread - 6/11/2008 6:57:29 PM
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earthless
Posts: 5682
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From: where pigeons are getting their sweaters ready....
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Silence you Ginger kid!
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Probing Today's Religious Movements | Promoting Doctrinal Discernment & Critical Thinking | Providing Reasons for Christian Faith & Ethics
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RE: A Matter of Color... Skin Color - One Stop Thread - 6/11/2008 7:31:13 PM
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GrahamCracker
Posts: 1962
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: Dallas, TX
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Is that Alfred E. Newman or his kid?
_____________________________
Larry
Sure we're under the law, everybody knows that!
When He said, "A new covenant," He has made the first obsolete. But whatever is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to disappear. (Heb 10:13)
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RE: A Matter of Color... Skin Color - One Stop Thread - 6/11/2008 10:32:40 PM
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jlp1
Posts: 125
Joined: 4/4/2008
From: Chicago
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quote:
ORIGINAL: SonInMe1
The only reason why I am not a ceo of a fortune 500 company is because I have red hair. Ever notice few ceo's have read hair? I want the government to investigate this. Its sooooo unfair.
Maybe next year I'll go to a night course on business...but until then I'll wait for this investigation to finish. I am sure I can get into this night school because of my red hair. They will treat me right because I have red hair.
???????????????
While your at it throw in the fact that I am 5'3 157 lb and my BMI should be 24 but its' 27, I think they are related issues that need to be addressed!!!!!!! All these issues really need to be addressed.
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RE: A Matter of Color... Skin Color - One Stop Thread - 6/13/2008 12:50:07 PM
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Cloak
Posts: 4121
Joined: 1/4/2008
From: Canada
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Sadly...discrimination, prejudice, racism DO still exist every where till we go to heaven!
The best way to eliminate them is to become a mature Christian and Christlike.
Jesus said that people would know us by the LOVE we have for one another.
Love is the antidote of any thing evil and that includes racism, bias, discrimination, favouritism etc!
_____________________________
And My God shall meet ALL Your Needs according to His glorious riches in Christ Jesus. (Philippians 4: 19)
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RE: A Matter of Color... Skin Color - One Stop Thread - 6/14/2008 6:36:45 PM
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PaleHawkWoman
Posts: 330
Joined: 7/14/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: SonInMe1
The only reason why I am not a ceo of a fortune 500 company is because I have red hair. Ever notice few ceo's have read hair? I want the government to investigate this. Its sooooo unfair.
Maybe next year I'll go to a night course on business...but until then I'll wait for this investigation to finish. I am sure I can get into this night school because of my red hair. They will treat me right because I have red hair.
???????????????
Actually, the number of true redheads is rapidly decreasing and there may be no redheads left by the turn of the next century. Maybe you should apply for endangered species status.
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RE: A Matter of Color... Skin Color - One Stop Thread - 6/22/2008 2:01:47 PM
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tracydolls
Posts: 1815
Joined: 3/30/2008
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quote:
Sadly...discrimination, prejudice, racism DO still exist every where till we go to heaven!
The best way to eliminate them is to become a mature Christian and Christlike.
Jesus said that people would know us by the LOVE we have for one another.
Love is the antidote of any thing evil and that includes racism, bias, discrimination, favouritism etc!
Sadly,
racism, bias, etc are very evident in these Christian boards. How can we tell non-believers what we believe in. But that which is agaisnt Christ.
PaleWoman-
Very good post! I have waited commenting on it for awhile because I had to think it over.
I have yet to find a reason to give up my own sin stained culture for some one else's, plus mines is much more colorful.
Not dull as watching paint dry.
I had to go find my college transcript, A plus in advanced english.
Do I sound right/white or even care to? Naw....everyone I know understands me including my white mother, who has no education and talks like she would fit in an hispanic 'hood.
Do my white neighbors understand me, yes. So do the asians and mexicans that live by me.
So who would I be pleasing if I spoke "proper" english? Who in my 'hood would understand me if I did speak "proper" english,
No one I know.
_____________________________
Rev 3:17 Because thou sayest, I am rich, and increased with goods, and have need of nothing; and knowest not that thou art wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked:
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RE: A Matter of Color... Skin Color - One Stop Thread - 6/22/2008 5:41:29 PM
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Cloak
Posts: 4121
Joined: 1/4/2008
From: Canada
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: tracydolls
quote:
Sadly...discrimination, prejudice, racism DO still exist every where till we go to heaven!
The best way to eliminate them is to become a mature Christian and Christlike.
Jesus said that people would know us by the LOVE we have for one another.
Love is the antidote of any thing evil and that includes racism, bias, discrimination, favouritism etc!
Sadly,
racism, bias, etc are very evident in these Christian boards. How can we tell non-believers what we believe in. But that which is agaisnt Christ.
I am not surprised that Not so many people are becoming Christians when they see and realize that many Christians ARE like that, why would they bother to become Christians? They would even think those so-called Christians are worse off than them!
If you experience any racism bc of your colour, I would highly recommend you to forgive those people and even to pray for them. I am sorry about that! (((tracy)))
_____________________________
And My God shall meet ALL Your Needs according to His glorious riches in Christ Jesus. (Philippians 4: 19)
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RE: A Matter of Color... Skin Color - One Stop Thread - 6/23/2008 1:24:00 AM
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DenimDiva
Posts: 6313
Joined: 9/28/2007
From: CA
Status: offline
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Hey, he didn't do too badly.... I think THIS is him now.
_____________________________
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RE: A Matter of Color... Skin Color - One Stop Thread - 6/24/2008 7:01:50 PM
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tracydolls
Posts: 1815
Joined: 3/30/2008
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Now I clicked racial issues from another thread and I keep only gettting this thread.
This is where we are suppose to discuss all matters concerning race?
_____________________________
Rev 3:17 Because thou sayest, I am rich, and increased with goods, and have need of nothing; and knowest not that thou art wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked:
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RE: A Matter of Color... Skin Color - One Stop Thread - 6/24/2008 7:06:15 PM
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GrahamCracker
Posts: 1962
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: Dallas, TX
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: tracydolls
Now I clicked racial issues from another thread and I keep only gettting this thread.
This is where we are suppose to discuss all matters concerning race?
Apparently so. It makes the moderating tasks easier. I think it stems from times when people abandoned discussions that were not going their way and began new discussions. If they got really heated, the moderators' jobs became really difficult keeping up with all of them.
_____________________________
Larry
Sure we're under the law, everybody knows that!
When He said, "A new covenant," He has made the first obsolete. But whatever is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to disappear. (Heb 10:13)
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