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RE: Single and Pregnant - 10/19/2007 6:01:16 PM
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SD456
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quote:
ORIGINAL: amannoftruth
quote:
ORIGINAL: SD456
quote:
Just think how much less sin there would be in the Body if we had to publicly confess our sins before the church!
Yes, and just think how much less sin there'd be if we branded the letter "A" on everyone who sinned so they would grovel in shame and humiliation..
The first is biblical; the second is not.
I don't what verse you are referring to. Are you referring to this one?
Matthew 18:15-20 "If your brother sins against you, go and show him his fault, just between the two of you. If he listens to you, you have won your brother over. 16 But if he will not listen, take one or two others along, so that 'every matter may be established by the testimony of two or three witnesses.' 17 If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church;
Because that doesn't mention anything about public confession. In fact it says we are to keep the sin confidential if we are able to (which goes against what some have said on this thread). Then it says to widen the circle slightly by bringing 2 or 3 other people into the situation. There are some arguements as to whether "tell it to the church" is referring to the elders or the entire congregation (I would think elders), but still it doesn't say they must make public confession.
In fact, Jesus showed public castigation was something he hated when he saved the woman caught in sin from being stoned. I would think that making someone stand in front of an entire congregation of people would be in line with public flogging and castigation, which Jesus would not have done.
< Message edited by SD456 -- 10/19/2007 6:07:54 PM >
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RE: Single and Pregnant - 10/19/2007 6:10:53 PM
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amannoftruth
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quote:
ORIGINAL: believeinhim2
quote:
Yes, it takes two to bring about a pregnancy, but it only takes one to prevent it. And we are primarily talking about the woman in this thread. A woman who is pregnant cannot blame the man, unless it was a rape situation.
This is the most rediculous thing i have read so far in this thread.
Wether or not we are discussing the woman is irrelevant to whose responsibility being "protected" was.
I'm not talking about being "protected"! I never said anything about that! Why would you assume that?! I'm talking about preventing it by saying "no" to sex until you are married!
Neither the man nor the woman can blame the other. They both have to be responsible for their own actions.
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"God is a just judge, and God is angry with the wicked every day."
The New King James Version. Nashville : Thomas Nelson, 1982, S. Ps 7
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RE: Single and Pregnant - 10/19/2007 6:44:28 PM
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SD456
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Nesher
quote:
ORIGINAL: SD456
quote:
Original: Amannoftruth
Just think how much less sin there would be in the Body if we had to publicly confess our sins before the church!
Yes, and just think how much less sin there'd be if we branded the letter "A" on everyone who sinned so they would grovel in shame and humiliation..
What was proposed, that you mock, is actually prescribed in the Bible. Is the Bible wrong?
I've not seen that in the NT, can you show me where it is? Both you and Amannoftruth have said that it is, but I don't recall where mandatory public confession is stated.
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RE: Single and Pregnant - 10/19/2007 6:58:52 PM
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believeinhim2
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quote:
ORIGINAL: amannoftruth
quote:
ORIGINAL: believeinhim2
quote:
Yes, it takes two to bring about a pregnancy, but it only takes one to prevent it. And we are primarily talking about the woman in this thread. A woman who is pregnant cannot blame the man, unless it was a rape situation.
This is the most rediculous thing i have read so far in this thread.
Wether or not we are discussing the woman is irrelevant to whose responsibility being "protected" was.
I'm not talking about being "protected"! I never said anything about that! Why would you assume that?! I'm talking about preventing it by saying "no" to sex until you are married!
Neither the man nor the woman can blame the other. They both have to be responsible for their own actions.
When i use the word "protected" in this case i am talking about the fact that it can either be the man or the woman who takes the initiative to say no not just after all abstinence is the best form of protection. I don not believehomwever that it falls exclusively on the woman to be the one to have to say no. The man should care enough about protecting the womans integrity to not even be instigating things if they are not married.
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RE: Single and Pregnant - 10/19/2007 9:31:27 PM
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StephK
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Since the responsibility of a possible child will lie predominately with the woman in premarital sex situations, it's very wise to be the one to say no. Yes the man should care enough to say no but if they don't they will say whatever is necessary to get what they want. BTDT have the burn scars to show for it.
There is a reason why God says to flee sexual immorality. God knows what is best for us yet we have to be stubborn and stupid and selfish when we refuse to take God at His word. If I could go back and do things differently you better believe I would. My life literally fell apart when I sinned against God. We need to quit being defensive in this area. Sexual sin destroys so many people. It is a trap and a bondage if we are honest.
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Religion has accepted the monstrous heresy that noise, size, activity and bluster make a man dear to God. To a people caught in the tempest God says, `Be still, and know that I am God.' ~AW Tozer
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RE: Single and Pregnant - 10/19/2007 11:16:24 PM
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relady
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quote:
I suggest that there were ...... not a very high percentage of miserable marriages resulting from the man marrying the woman. Hmmmm. I, as a woman, would disagree with that, but I doubt I could find real statistics other than anecdotal to support my feeling. I just think there were LOTS of women in the past who stayed in very unhappy and unhealthy marriages because they didn't feel they had the right to happiness as part of the equation.
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but I grew up in the "Leave it to Beaver" era, and things WERE different then. Only if you led a very sheltered life. Things really weren't all that different.....it was the girl who got pregnant, the girl who was punished, and the girl who suffered. Guys as usual, got off without their reputation tarnished and without much punishment from what I can tell. Leave it to Beaver never really existed in real life, except for the very very sheltered, or those in deep denial.
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RE: Single and Pregnant - 10/19/2007 11:52:31 PM
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SD456
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OK Nesher or Amannoftruth, I would really like to learn where the scripture is that says we are suppose to confess our sins in front of the whole congregation. If I'm missing it, I'd like to find it. You both told me that it's a biblical way to treat people. Nesher, you even told me that I'm mocking Amannoftruth's statement about it. Ok, I'm waiting......
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RE: Single and Pregnant - 10/20/2007 12:24:53 AM
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Nesher
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quote:
ORIGINAL: SD456
OK Nesher or Amannoftruth, I would really like to learn where the scripture is that says we are suppose to confess our sins in front of the whole congregation. If I'm missing it, I'd like to find it. You both told me that it's a biblical way to treat people. Nesher, you even told me that I'm mocking Amannoftruth's statement about it. Ok, I'm waiting......
If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church. And if he refuses to listen even to the church, let him be to you as a Gentile and a tax collector. Matthew 18:17 (this is after two other steps have occurred, but the idea is certainly given that discipline and confession take place in public).
But now I am writing to you not to associate with anyone who bears the name of brother if he is guilty of sexual immorality or greed, or is an idolater, reviler, drunkard, or swindler—not even to eat with such a one. 1 Corinthians 5:11
And this became known to all the residents of Ephesus, both Jews and Greeks. And fear fell upon them all, and the name of the Lord Jesus was extolled. Also many of those who were now believers came, confessing and divulging their practices. Acts 19:17-18
Therefore, confess your sins to one another and pray for one another, that you may be healed. The prayer of a righteous person has great power as it is working. James 5:16 (that's almost word for word what we have been saying)
No one is calling for public humiliation, but public confession is a positive thing. When done correctly, public confession lets the body know what your struggles are and how they might help you in those struggles. There is no room for judgment when everyone knows the depravity of everyone else.
This, of course, rubs our American culture the wrong way - we've grown up under this illusion of privacy. The Bible, however, offers so such luxury.
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"Acceptance of the current [physicalist] views is motivated not so much by an independent conviction of their truth as by a terror of what are apparently the only alternatives." John Searle
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RE: Single and Pregnant - 10/20/2007 2:11:28 AM
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SD456
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Nesher
Matt. 18...(this is after two other steps have occurred, but the idea is certainly given that discipline and confession take place in public).
This does not imply that confession is public. (I gave these very verses a couple posts ago). These verses say, first off, that the sin is NOT to be made public knowledge if at all possible. Which completely counters your idea of public confessions being correct. Since these are progressive steps, they are dealing with a christian who is obviously continuing in a sinful lifestyle. Something that the young woman in this thread doesn't sound like she is doing.
quote:
ORIGINAL: Nesher
But now I am writing to you not to associate with anyone who bears the name of brother if he is guilty of sexual immorality or greed, or is an idolater, reviler, drunkard, or swindler—not even to eat with such a one. 1 Corinthians 5:11
Again this is speaking of a christian continuing in a sinful lifestyle, something that is ongoing, not a one-time fall into temptation. This is someone who arrogantly and rebelliously lives in a way that they are fully aware is contrary to walking in the light.
quote:
Therefore, confess your sins to one another and pray for one another, that you may be healed. The prayer of a righteous person has great power as it is working. James 5:16 (that's almost word for word what we have been saying)
Once again, this speaks nothing about making a fallen brother confess publicly. This is about confessing to someone you are more than likely in a relationship with - leader, accountability group, etc. The young girl in this thread would be fully able to confess her sin to her young fiancee and they could pray together in the presence of Jesus and it would suffice and healing could happen in both their hearts.
quote:
No one is calling for public humiliation, but public confession is a positive thing.
Public confession is not needed and in fact does bring its own shame and humiliation that is uncalled for. Confessing sins to one another is one thing - I confess my sins and failures to the few women I'm in relationship with so that they can pray for me and help me in my weak areas - but there is no wisdom or benefit in having christians stand up and confess their secrets to whole congregations of people. And the only ones who believe this are those who believe that shame and guilt are somehow synonomous with conviction of sin, and who believe that a little shame might be good for the soul and make one more holy. Both thoughts are erroneous and do much more harm than good.
quote:
There is no room for judgment when everyone knows the depravity of everyone else.
In a perfect world perhaps. In a world where ALL christians are exactly like Jesus in character, heart and intention, definately. But in reality, too many christians would condemn and judge, just as in this thread the aunt of the girl said that leadership and people in the youth group were treating them differently and looking at the girls brother differently because of her fall. There would be heaps of judgement.
< Message edited by SD456 -- 10/20/2007 2:23:05 AM >
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RE: Single and Pregnant - 10/20/2007 3:08:58 AM
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Nesher
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Well, who didn't see that one coming?
You argued that there shouldn't be public confession. You were saying there were no Scriptures that pointed out public confession. I gave some that show there should be public confession, most of the time after certain steps have been taken.
quote:
Once again, this speaks nothing about making a fallen brother confess publicly. This is about confessing to someone you are more than likely in a relationship with - leader, accountability group, etc. The young girl in this thread would be fully able to confess her sin to her young fiancee and they could pray together in the presence of Jesus and it would suffice and healing could happen in both their hearts.
Where is this in the context of the verse?
The context seemingly shows that at the very least the Church leadership is to be present. However, notice how the verses before and after refer to congregational acts.
quote:
And the only ones who believe this are those who believe that shame and guilt are somehow synonomous with conviction of sin, and who believe that a little shame might be good for the soul and make one more holy. Both thoughts are erroneous and do much more harm than good.
And your proof? Shame is a good thing. If a person sins and feels no shame, then we should do all we can to help recognize that he should have shame. If the person sins and recognizes this shame, then we should do what we can to help the person realize that Christ has forgiven him of his sins.
Shame, however, reminds us that our sin is dishonorable before God - how is that erroneous?
quote:
In a perfect world perhaps. In a world where ALL christians are exactly like Jesus in character, heart and intention, definately. But in reality, too many christians would condemn and judge, just as in this thread the aunt of the girl said that leadership and people in the youth group were treating them differently and looking at the girls brother differently because of her fall. There would be heaps of judgement.
Ah, I get it - we're to be pragmatic, and of the worst kind too! Making judgments on what could possibly happened if we actually implemented the Bible.
The potential abuse of a system does not negate the truth of a system. Public confession, especially of someone who habitually commits the same sin, isn't necessarily a bad thing.
The fact is, the girl did shame her family by getting pregnant. Sin is not just an individual act - it will always bring physical, mental, and spiritual ramifications on the ones we love, on our friends, and even on those we do not know. Sin does not occur in a vacuum - it affects the whole of society. My sin can impact others without me knowing it or intending it to.
This doesn't mean the girl should be outcast from society or have a red letter placed upon her blouse. There is much room for grace and I think that family should realize that their sin also makes them guilty before God. If their shame is in public embarrassment of what society will think, then they are wrong. If it is because a member of their family has sinned before God, then it is proper embarrassment.
< Message edited by Nesher -- 10/20/2007 3:21:20 AM >
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RE: Single and Pregnant - 10/20/2007 12:14:42 PM
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SD456
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Nesher
You argued that there shouldn't be public confession. You were saying there were no Scriptures that pointed out public confession. I gave some that show there should be public confession, most of the time after certain steps have been taken.
You did not show one example of public confession. You showed an example of public discipline, which is completely different and in those cases it was with the most grievous sins that such a harsh punishment had to be delivered.
quote:
ORIGINAL: Nesher
And your proof? Shame is a good thing.
Really? My goodness, I wonder if Jesus was lacking in that area then. He didn't shame the woman who wept at his feet, he simply told her "your sins are forgiven". He didn't allow the religious leaders to shame the woman caught in sin, He actually rescued her from the punishment and in so doing, rescued her from their public shame they were trying to put upon her. I don't see Jesus EVER publicly shaming anyone, except for the pharisees for their love of religion and hypocrisy.
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If a person sins and feels no shame, then we should do all we can to help recognize that he should have shame.
Should we now? And I thought the Holy Spirit is the one who brings conviction and godly sorrow. Yes, Paul mentioned about putting people out of church, but that is the absolute last resort and confined only to those who arrogantly continue in their sin.
quote:
Making judgments on what could possibly happened if we actually implemented the Bible.
The problem is you're NOT implementing the bible. You're attempting to take one example of a very harsh and extreme form of discipline and apply it to all circumstances. And it doesn't fit. Jesus' examples toward sinners is a much better example that we should follow, not our sense of what "shame" should look like. The early Catholic church got into that problem, which is why they created the idea of penance. That a person must perform acts of penance to prove to everyone around them that they are truly sorry. Which is what you are suggesting, only your "act of penance" to prove that a person is sorry is public humiliation.
< Message edited by SD456 -- 10/20/2007 12:34:35 PM >
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RE: Single and Pregnant - 10/20/2007 12:31:20 PM
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SD456
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Nesher
Where is this in the context of the verse?
The context seemingly shows that at the very least the Church leadership is to be present. However, notice how the verses before and after refer to congregational acts.
In regards to confessing sins one to another, no where does this verse imply that leadership is involved. In fact, if you stay in keeping with Matt 18, it would imply that we are to confess our sins to the brother that we offended and so we would bring healing to that broken relationship that occured because of the offense. And this "confession" would remain in confidence between the two people involved, no one else would be brought in.
There is an awful lot of pressumption happening on this thread, including pressumption that the aunt is making toward her beloved neice. Can anyone know what kind of remorse the couple may have felt immediately following their fall, or when finding out their pregnancy? Does the aunt absolutely know if the young man and girl did not go to Jesus and repent for their actions just between them and Jesus? Does the family know absolutely that there were not days or weeks of anguish at falling into sin that was felt privately by the girl, and the reason she seems happy now is because she has been forgiven and Jesus has told her that He'll walk with her through all this and stand by her??
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RE: Single and Pregnant - 10/20/2007 3:48:48 PM
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Nesher
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quote:
You did not show one example of public confession. You showed an example of public discipline, which is completely different and in those cases it was with the most grievous sins that such a harsh punishment had to be delivered.
Actually, I gave three scriptures that deal with public confession. The first two go hand in hand with discipline, afterall, if someone is being disciplined and admits to his sin, then he certainly has confessed it. Likewise, where do you get the idea that these are dealing only with the most grievous sins? Where in the context of these passages do you get that?
The second I will deal with later.
quote:
Really? My goodness, I wonder if Jesus was lacking in that area then. He didn't shame the woman who wept at his feet, he simply told her "your sins are forgiven". He didn't allow the religious leaders to shame the woman caught in sin, He actually rescued her from the punishment and in so doing, rescued her from their public shame they were trying to put upon her. I don't see Jesus EVER publicly shaming anyone, except for the pharisees for their love of religion and hypocrisy.
Here's a lesson for you; when you take what people say out of context, you run into the problem of creating straw-man arguments. It would bode well for you to learn that lesson. Here's what I said:
If a person sins and feels no shame, then we should do all we can to help recognize that he should have shame. If the person sins and recognizes this shame, then we should do what we can to help the person realize that Christ has forgiven him of his sins.
In the two examples you use, both women already felt shame over what they did. There was no reason to produce shame because it was already there. When a person sins without shame, we should show them why their should be shame.
quote:
Should we now? And I thought the Holy Spirit is the one who brings conviction and godly sorrow. Yes, Paul mentioned about putting people out of church, but that is the absolute last resort and confined only to those who arrogantly continue in their sin.
Ah, that is correct - the Holy Spirit doesn't use us in keeping each other accountable and on track with God. I completely forgot that truth.
quote:
Jesus' examples toward sinners is a much better example that we should follow, not our sense of what "shame" should look like.
We should ignore Paul?
I AM following Christ's example. I'm saying that when you come across unrepentant sinners - which the Pharisees were - you call them out in public, you shame them, you bring them to the point they recognize their sins and feel horrible for them. All of the "sinners" Christ ran into were confessed sinners, He had no need to do anything, the people already knew they were guilty.
quote:
In regards to confessing sins one to another, no where does this verse imply that leadership is involved
You're right, there is nothing within the verse that says that. The context the verse is found in, however, is what we're going off of here. The context is talking about the corporate church, the entirety of everyone involved, specifically the leadership.
quote:
In fact, if you stay in keeping with Matt 18, it would imply that we are to confess our sins to the brother that we offended and so we would bring healing to that broken relationship that occured because of the offense. And this "confession" would remain in confidence between the two people involved, no one else would be brought in.
Matthew 18 only works when the sin involves an anthropological point. Most sin, however, is man sinning against God, in which case Matthew 18 would not apply.
_____________________________
"Acceptance of the current [physicalist] views is motivated not so much by an independent conviction of their truth as by a terror of what are apparently the only alternatives." John Searle
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RE: Single and Pregnant - 10/20/2007 10:13:18 PM
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amannoftruth
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quote:
When i use the word "protected" in this case i am talking about the fact that it can either be the man or the woman who takes the initiative to say no not just after all abstinence is the best form of protection. I don not believehomwever that it falls exclusively on the woman to be the one to have to say no. The man should care enough about protecting the womans integrity to not even be instigating things if they are not married.
I agree, but my point was that either one can prevent it by saying "no" (except in the case of rape).
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The New King James Version. Nashville : Thomas Nelson, 1982, S. Ps 7
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RE: Single and Pregnant - 10/21/2007 10:10:13 AM
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SonInMe1
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quote:
we continue to place the burden of that sin only upon the woman.
She is often the one who suffers the burden of the action.
quote:
think how much less sin there'd be if we branded the letter "A" on everyone who sinned
I think the A was just for adultry...and shame is not a bad thing. Usta be people were ashamed of being on welfare and having sex outside of marriage and living with someone and homosexuality and abortion and going to jail and using drugs and speaking poor english and, and, and....
Now all we have is a mess. Yep, all these things aren't sin anymore and hey, if it hurts big daddy government will bail you out. Why? Of course you deserve this help. Just by drawing breath you deserve all of your consequences for bad behaviors to just go away...we must feel your pain even though it makes the pain worse.
We worship our emotions to the point compassion is an enablement.
Our church supports Crisis Preganacy Centers where these issues are addressed.
I will also add, the unwed parents of my grandson live with me. I don't like it. Its wrong but....you are not supporting them. The kid is being raised well. The immature parents are under control. We didn't look for your solution to the problem.
We "fixed" it.
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You adulterous people, don't you know that friendship with the world is hatred toward God? Anyone who chooses to be a friend of the world becomes an enemy of God.
James 4:4
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RE: Single and Pregnant - 10/21/2007 2:08:26 PM
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SD456
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quote:
ORIGINALL: Nesher
I'm saying that when you come across unrepentant sinners .... you call them out in public, you shame them, you bring them to the point they recognize their sins and feel horrible for them.
I believe that is spiritual abuse and emotional manipulation. And the religious spirit in the church is very, very good at this, and very good at justifying it. It is trying to control a person and basically force them to repent by bullying them. I don't believe that is what Paul meant and, YES, Paul was speaking of casting people out of the congregation as an absolute last resort because of the level of the brother's hardness and arrogance of heart in continuing in sin.
No where in the NT will you find scripture that supports your idea of publicly exposing people's sins. A congregation is ONLY to be told about a person's sin if that person rebelliously and arrogantly continues in that sin, which Matt 18 was very clear on. Jesus was very clear on it when he told the leadership that were trying to stone the woman that they could cast the first stone if they had no sin. They were trying to publicly humiliate her, which is not the heart of Jesus.
And there I shall stop. Because we will never convince either of anything. You believe in public castigation and humiliation, I do not, and we shall remain worlds apart on this issue.
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RE: Single and Pregnant - 10/21/2007 2:12:26 PM
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SD456
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quote:
Just by drawing breath you deserve all of your consequences for bad behaviors to just go away
The consequences for bad behavior do not go away. The young woman on this thread is in Jesus' hand. Jesus is fully capable of changing her heart and leading her to repentance (if in fact she hasn't spent time in His presence already dealing with it, which it doesn't sound like the family is certain about).
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RE: Single and Pregnant - 10/21/2007 2:13:29 PM
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relady
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quote:
And there I shall stop. Because we will never convince either of anything. You believe in public castigation and humiliation, I do not, and we shall remain worlds apart on this issue. SD, I'm with you on this. Public humiliation is never good and never produces good fruit. It's really a great way to drive people AWAY from the church and God.
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RE: Single and Pregnant - 10/21/2007 3:34:59 PM
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Nesher
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quote:
I believe that is spiritual abuse and emotional manipulation. And the religious spirit in the church is very, very good at this, and very good at justifying it. It is trying to control a person and basically force them to repent by bullying them. I don't believe that is what Paul meant and, YES, Paul was speaking of casting people out of the congregation as an absolute last resort because of the level of the brother's hardness and arrogance of heart in continuing in sin.
No where in the NT will you find scripture that supports your idea of publicly exposing people's sins. A congregation is ONLY to be told about a person's sin if that person rebelliously and arrogantly continues in that sin, which Matt 18 was very clear on. Jesus was very clear on it when he told the leadership that were trying to stone the woman that they could cast the first stone if they had no sin. They were trying to publicly humiliate her, which is not the heart of Jesus.
This has become a broken record argument. I have offered solid evidence from the Bible - that you ignored simply by sticking your fingers in your ear and not offering any exegetical justification for your interpretation of the passages - that shows there is a time and place for public confession. I have not advocated doing this every week with every member for every sin, obviously if this were to occur it would occur every single week.
You are correct, however, that public confession with discipline is an attempt to force repentance. Though the person is not strong armed into repentance, it is hoped he acknowledges his guilt before God and repents from the shame that is cast upon him. This is an extremely, extremely, extremely Biblical concept and our lack of practice, in fact, our hatred of such an idea has allowed rampant sin within our church today.
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"Acceptance of the current [physicalist] views is motivated not so much by an independent conviction of their truth as by a terror of what are apparently the only alternatives." John Searle
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RE: Single and Pregnant - 10/21/2007 3:36:22 PM
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Nesher
Posts: 407
Joined: 8/18/2007
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quote:
ORIGINAL: relady
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And there I shall stop. Because we will never convince either of anything. You believe in public castigation and humiliation, I do not, and we shall remain worlds apart on this issue. SD, I'm with you on this. Public humiliation is never good and never produces good fruit. It's really a great way to drive people AWAY from the church and God.
That's the point in Church discipline - we're supposed to cast them away from the Church and leave them to God.
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"Acceptance of the current [physicalist] views is motivated not so much by an independent conviction of their truth as by a terror of what are apparently the only alternatives." John Searle
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RE: Single and Pregnant - 10/21/2007 4:37:39 PM
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SD456
Posts: 1447
Joined: 8/6/2007
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Nesher
This is an extremely, extremely, extremely Biblical concept and our lack of practice, in fact, our hatred of such an idea has allowed rampant sin within our church today.
This is not a biblical practice at all in the NT. The verses you mentioned speak nothing about it.
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ORIGINAL: Nesher
You are correct, however, that public confession with discipline is an attempt to force repentance. Though the person is not strong armed into repentance, it is hoped he acknowledges his guilt before God and repents from the shame that is cast upon him.
What do you think you are doing by trying to FORCE repentance, you are strong arming the person, or in other words "bullying" them.
There seems to be a huge misunderstanding of what shame is. Shame is NOT a good thing. Shame is a tool that Satan uses to drive people away from Jesus. Shame and condemnation are synonymous. Conviction of sin and godly sorrow are completely different and are inspired by the Holy Spirit. Shame comes from our flesh. It is shame that tries to make christians, including myself, hide from God after we sin. Who here hasn't waited a day or two before going to God at some point or other after we've sinned. That's not what God wants. God wants us to run to him after we sin. Shame is what attacks a believer to make them want to hide.
So you wish to use a fleshly tool to try and force people's heart into a state of repentance - and it won't work. You'll always have the opposite effect. People will be pushed into rebellion even more because they will see your attempt to make them "feel" shame for just what it is - control and manipulation - and to top it off, the shame you are trying to force upon them will make them run away from God even harder.
There are thousands of christians out there who are no longer at a church for these simple reasons. The church has bullied them and beat them up, thinking that they're doing a good thing by "helping" the believer conform to a form of godliness or holiness. All the while the church is simply using fleshly tools to force outward changes on people and crippling people in terrible ways.
Let God deal with the young woman's heart on this post. The shame and embarrassment that the family feels is not a righteous or good thing. It comes from their flesh and satan more than likely is playing on it. The OP, who is the aunt and who loves her neice, I'm sure means well to a degree, and she may even have some true godly sorrow mixed into her emotions (grief that the Holy Spirit was grieved in this sin), but the shame and embarrassment are from her flesh and she needs to deal with it with God.
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MY BLOG
http://reflectionsdeep.blogspot.com
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RE: Single and Pregnant - 10/21/2007 4:49:46 PM
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SD456
Posts: 1447
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quote:
ORIGNAL: Nesher
I have offered solid evidence from the Bible - that you ignored simply by sticking your fingers in your ear
Actually, Nesher, I haven't ignored it at all, I've answered every one of your viewpoints.  But I guess because I see your viewpoints as wrong that you percieve that I'm ignoring you. Nahh, I just come to different conclusions from my bible studying and what I feel the Holy Spirit has taught me, and through my experiences with how Jesus deals with me, and my experience in dealing with others.
"Mercy triumphs over judgement" - if I'm in error, I'd rather err on the side of grace and mercy then err on the side of legalism and dogmatism. I guess Jesus will just have to judge my heart and intent on this issue.
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MY BLOG
http://reflectionsdeep.blogspot.com
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RE: Single and Pregnant - 10/21/2007 4:54:00 PM
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SD456
Posts: 1447
Joined: 8/6/2007
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quote:
ORIGINAL: relady
quote:
And there I shall stop. Because we will never convince either of anything. You believe in public castigation and humiliation, I do not, and we shall remain worlds apart on this issue. SD, I'm with you on this. Public humiliation is never good and never produces good fruit. It's really a great way to drive people AWAY from the church and God.
I agree with your comment, relady. It even drives gentle, broken christians away from the church, which grieves God, I believe, more than anything else. 
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MY BLOG
http://reflectionsdeep.blogspot.com
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RE: Single and Pregnant - 10/21/2007 5:01:06 PM
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Nesher
Posts: 407
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SD, if I were to use your style of argumentation, I could simply say, "Nuh-uh," "nope," and "nah" and have a completely legitimate reply. This, unfortunately, doesn't work in the real world. Simply because you say I'm wrong or that my interpretation isn't valid or that something isn't in the Bible doesn't mean it is so - you need to prove such claims.
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This is not a biblical practice at all in the NT. The verses you mentioned speak nothing about it.
Yet I've quoted passages that deal with exactly what I'm saying.
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What do you think you are doing by trying to FORCE repentance, you are strong arming the person, or in other words "bullying" them.
And this is wrong because...?
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There seems to be a huge misunderstanding of what shame is. Shame is NOT a good thing. Shame is a tool that Satan uses to drive people away from Jesus. Shame and condemnation are synonymous | | |
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