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RE: Sabbath - One Stop Thread - 7/16/2005 1:59:19 PM
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bobservations
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Seventh Day Advocate
quote:
ORIGINAL: bobservations
Ez or any Sabbath keeper, you have glossed over my questions to you. I'll state them again: do you keep the other Old Covenant days? Do you believe you should? Do yo keep the other laws of Moses, such as wearing tassels? Do you believe tht the Pauline books in the Bible are inspired? I am wondering because you refuse to recognise the New Covenant fully.
The Commandment says that you shall do no work on the Holy day. Only Levites and guards were permitted to work. Jesus told the lame man to pick up his bed and walk on the Sabbath. That was work. All through His ministry He down played the Sabbath. Taht is the main reason the Jews were gunning for Him. He has made it very clear in the New Covenant that He doesn't want us to be a part of keeping a day.
Yes I believe that the Pauline books in the bible are inspired. However I don't believe that he denounced the sabbath. How then do you interpret Col. 2, Gal. 3, Heb. 9 and 10 and Romans 9and 10. Paul tried to get new believers introduced to Jesus, the most important part of Christianity, first. When you have a relationship with Jesus (I'll say it for the thousanth time) He says "if you love me, then you will keep my commandments" it wasn't written without intent to be followed. And I will say for the ... time that He wasn't referring to the 10.
The ten commandments were so intimately written than God used his own finger! I'd think that that would make them important...Another time God was that intimate was when he created humans and we know how much he loves us. These ten simple laws (laws that if you used properly help us love one another, God, and ourselves) are intended to help His children live. And through Jesus blood He set us free from the curse of the Law. He gave us a New Covenant. The Mosiac covenant faded away. The Old Covenant contained the rules for Sabbath keeping, the New says nothing about that ritual law. The law written to the Jews by God's finger was just that, a law written to the Jews and the Jews only. Jesus sacrifice is for all mankind. Can't you see that? The reason He had to come and die in our place is because his chosen people could not "keep" the Sabbath nor any of the other laws. 612 I believe. If the Jews had been able to do so they would have been like Adam and Eve before they sinned. That goes for us also. We know we can't, so we accept the sacrifice Jesus made and glory in the fact that He thought enough of His creation to do it. He is our rest. And He doesn't require us to go back and try to "keep" Sabbath.
to the wearing tassels comment, the tassels should only prove how much more important the ten commandments were. They were a reminder to those who wore them to always try to utilize the commands that God had given them. Then you don't? If you are pushing the Mosiac Covenant which included the 10, I would think tassel wearing and not cutting side burns would be a requirement you would be obligated to do.
The lame man getting up is an example of doing good on the sabbath. Jesus said it himself, "it is lawful to do good on the sabbath" I think you missewd the point. He carried his bed on the Sabbath and even worse Jesus told him to. if someone fell down a well on the sabbath I would definitely be willing to helpl...if that meant running a mile to get the necassary help then that is entirely different then running a mile with the intent of excersize. My father is a doctor and sometimes he has to "work" on the sabbath. But what is he doing? He is healing, just like Jesus did on the sabbath. I bet he collects the shekels for doing so too.
I too had to work on the Sabbath in a SDA hospital. i saw many things going on that would make EGW turn over in her grave. The brethren told me that I couldn't work in the power plant that supplied the current for the hospital because I would have had to work on Sabbath. I still do not understand, but now I don't care because I know better. I am indeed free.
All throughout His ministry Jesus did nothing but keep the sabbath first of all, and secondly He tried to explain to people why it was important to keep it correctly. Did nothing but keep Sabbath? I know you know better. He kept Sabbath because He was still under the Law. He wouldn't have fulfilled the Law if He had not kept it. He wore different type clothing than we do and He didn't marry. He did many things that we don't. Keeping the sabbath correctly isn't about following a bunch of rules, It isn't? where was I for 40 years? it's about resting from the stress of the world and meditating in God. Where was Jesus when He first declared publicly that He was the son of God? He was in the synagogue on the sabbath. He sure wasn't resting. And He wasn't a Levite. Only :Levites coud work on Sabbath. Preaching was Jesus work and he did it on Sabbath. I realize I said it before but really think about it: Jesus rested on the sabbath even in death...that's hardcore  and I think that's gotta mean something. Yep it does, it means that He was still under the law until He arose on Sunday morning. The resurrection was part f the atoinment. Without the resurrection How would we have known that He was truly Chrst? He fulfilled the Old Testament prophesy. At His death the veil was torn signifying that the sacrifical era was over. His resurrection is the sign that all is for real. we can now celibrate a new beginning, a New Covenant. The law of Love is written on our hearts. No more sabbath rituals! 
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RE: Sabbath - One Stop Thread - 7/16/2005 4:38:34 PM
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BrotherEldon
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Now we shall continue our look at the practice of the New COVENANT Christians of the first centuries... and we shall see that the practices of the professed Church of today, are not one and the same.
The First Gentile Convert was a Sabbath Keeper
Acts 10:1-2, 22 There was a certain man in Caesarea called Cornelius, a centurion of the band called the Italian band A devout man, and one that feared God with all his house, which gave much alms to the people, and prayed to God alway... And they said, Cornelius the centurion, a just man, and one that feareth God, and of good report among all the nation of the Jews, was warned from God by an holy angel to send for thee into his house, and to hear words of thee.
Cornelius was a proselyte, which is a gentile who practiced the religion of the Jews. He believed in the God of the bible and took hold of the promises that GOD has made to the gentile.
Isaiah 56:6-7 Also the sons of the stranger, that join themselves to the LORD, to serve him, and to love the name of the LORD, to be his servants, every one that keepeth the sabbath from polluting it, and taketh hold of my covenant; Even them will I bring to my holy mountain, and make them joyful in my house of prayer: their burnt offerings and their sacrifices shall be accepted upon mine altar; for mine house shall be called an house of prayer for all people.
Cornelius was soon converted along with all of his household and here the church of Caesarea was established in the home of a Sabbath keeper.
JEWS AND RELIGIOUS PROSELYTES FOUNDED THE EARLY CHURCHES
When Cornelius was saved, and the Apostles realized that the Gospel was for all men, they began to work to spread the gospel through out all of the world. As you read the book of Acts you realize that they had a plan that would ease the transition.
They would take the gospel of the risen Messiah to the scattered Jews and the gentile proselytes in the different cities, and let these who have some knowledge of the GOD of the bible and his ways be the pillars for the early church.
How far had the religion of the Jews, and the knowledge of the Sabbath spread? Acts 15:21 For Moses of old time hath in every city them that preach him, being read in the synagogues every sabbath day.
The Antioch Church was established as a Sabbath Keeping Church.
Now we will follow the Apostle Paul, who planted churches through out the known world, and we see for ourselves what kind of Churches the first churches were.
Acts 13:14 But when they departed from Perga, they came to Antioch in Pisidia, and went into the synagogue on the sabbath day, and sat down.
Acts 13:42-44 And when the Jews were gone out of the synagogue, the Gentiles besought that these words might be preached to them the next sabbath. Now when the congregation was broken up, many of the Jews and religious proselytes followed Paul and Barnabas: who, speaking to them, persuaded them to continue in the grace of God. And the next sabbath day came almost the whole city together to hear the word of God.
Here is established that the Apostles first went to the synagogue to preach to the Jews and the proselytes, and through them the rest of the city was reached. It is also noted which day is chosen as a day of assembly, to preach the gospel. It is was the Sabbath day. Thus the Church of Antioch was raised up by Sabbath keepers.
THE PHILIPPIAN CHURCH
Acts 16:12-15 And from thence to Philippi, which is the chief city of that part of Macedonia, and a colony: and we were in that city abiding certain days. And on the sabbath we went out of the city by a river side, where prayer was wont to be made; and we sat down, and spake unto the women which resorted thither. And a certain woman named Lydia, a seller of purple, of the city of Thyatira, which worshipped God, heard us: whose heart the Lord opened, that she attended unto the things which were spoken of Paul. And when she was baptized, and her household, she besought us, saying, If ye have judged me to be faithful to the Lord, come into my house, and abide there. And she constrained us.
The Church in Philippi was established in the home of Lydia, a religious proselyte, who worshiped on the Sabbath.
THESSALONIAN CHURCH ESTABLISHED
Acts 17:1-4 ¶ Now when they had passed through Amphipolis and Apollonia, they came to Thessalonica, where was a synagogue of the Jews: And Paul, as his manner was, went in unto them, and three sabbath days reasoned with them out of the scriptures, Opening and alleging, that Christ must needs have suffered, and risen again from the dead; and that this Jesus, whom I preach unto you, is Christ. And some of them believed, and consorted with Paul and Silas; and of the devout Greeks a great multitude, and of the chief women not a few.
Here again the great multitude who believed were devout Greeks, who are again religious proselytes who worshiped the God of the Jews, keeping his Sabbath and his word. And thus the Thessalonian church was established by Sabbath keepers.
THE CORINTHIAN CHURCH
ACTS 18:1-4 ¶ After these things Paul departed from Athens, and came to Corinth;
And found a certain Jew named Aquila, born in Pontus, lately come from Italy, with his wife Priscilla; (because that Claudius had commanded all Jews to depart from Rome:) and came unto them. And because he was of the same craft, he abode with them, and wrought: for by their occupation they were tentmakers. And he reasoned in the synagogue every sabbath, and persuaded the Jews and the Greeks.
Acts 18:7-8 ¶ And he departed thence, and entered into a certain man’s house, named Justus, one that worshipped God, whose house joined hard to the synagogue.
And Crispus, the chief ruler of the synagogue, believed on the Lord with all his house; and many of the Corinthians hearing believed, and were baptized.
Here we see that the Corinthian Church was established through Sabbath keepers, in fact the head of the synagogue himself was converted. Aquila and Priscilla, who became great workers for the Lord, were Jews, who of course were Sabbath keepers.
WHAT HAPPENED TO THE SABBATH?
As you can see from the reading of the book of Acts, the early Christian Church was closely related to the Jewish religion. All the Apostles were Jews, and the early churches were established in the homes of Jews and religious proselytes.
Christians believed in the God of the Jews. Worshiped the Jewish Messiah. Recognized the bible of the Jews as inspired. And kept the same Sabbath as the Jews.
Thus when persecution came upon the Jews from the Romans, because of their continual rebellion and revolt, persecution also came upon the Christians, because they were considered a sect of the Jews.
Claudius ordered all Jews to leave the city of Rome. Then soon Emperor Hadrian outlawed circumcision and Sabbath keeping. Christians were forced to do two things.
They could be faithful to GOD and flee from the cities. Suffering hardships and risking their life for the truth.
OR they could compromise, and give up the Sabbath, and other distinctive truths, so that they could have ‘peace’ with the world.
I am thankful that many thousands chose to be faithful to God then. And I am thankful that there many millions of people, who choose to serve God in truth today.
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RE: Sabbath - One Stop Thread - 7/16/2005 6:24:39 PM
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SugarReinz
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Eutychus
Oh, BTW, He is indeed faithful to His promises to those who worship and serve our true Sabbath, Jesus Christ.
Euty,
Show me that verse where it says that Sunday is the true Sabbath! Really, I am dying to know!
_____________________________
Shema Isra'el Adonai Eloheinu Adonai Echad!
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RE: Sabbath - One Stop Thread - 7/16/2005 6:27:34 PM
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Seventh Day Advocate
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Col. 2-"11 In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ" without the 10 commandments what are the sins of the flesh?
Gal. 3 "16 Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days" again this is Paul wanting the new believers to rather focus on God first. Even today there are many things (in any religion) like baptism, or something as simple as regular church attendence (saturday or sunday) that put off new believers. It's always good to let them find their foundation in Christ first and let them want to grow in Him and do His will. In the church issue if they truly believe and study they will find that God commands us to fellowship with one another and if they see the benefit in that (of course there are other benefits to church) they can make their decision. If all these "things" were forced upon new believers it would no doubt deter some.
Heb. 9 10 "10 Which stood only in meats and drinks, and divers washings, and carnal ordinances, imposed on them until the time of reformation. 11 But Christ being come an high priest of good things to come, by a greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this building;" if this is what you wanted me to see here, this isn't about the 10 commandments because the 10 commandments don't deal in meats and drinks and divers washings. Those were parts of the laws of moses when they were in the desert. They had many laws dealing with cleanliness and such because of their local.
Heb 10 "16 This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them;" this tells me that God still held the value of the law. He wrote it on our hearts.
Romans 9and 10 "9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved." I assume you wanted me to find this...so I pose the question, if I were to sleep with my friends wife and not ask repentance but, I believe in my heart that God raised Jesus from the dead, where do I stand? remember, adultery is one of the commandments.
'"if you love me, then you will keep my commandments" And I will say for the ... time that He wasn't referring to the 10. '
What was He reffering to then?
"He gave us a New Covenant. The Mosiac covenant faded away. The Old Covenant contained the rules for Sabbath keeping, the New says nothing about that ritual law. The law written to the Jews by God's finger was just that, a law written to the Jews and the Jews only. Jesus sacrifice is for all mankind. Can't you see that? The reason He had to come and die in our place is because his chosen people could not "keep" the Sabbath nor any of the other laws. 612 I believe. If the Jews had been able to do so they would have been like Adam and Eve before they sinned. That goes for us also. We know we can't, so we accept the sacrifice Jesus made and glory in the fact that He thought enough of His creation to do it. He is our rest. And He doesn't require us to go back and try to "keep" Sabbath. "
I'm not talking about the mosaic convenant. I'm not talking about the numerous rules about sabbath keeping. If you actually read Exodus chapter 20, God only says specifically "say unto the children of israel" after He says the 10 commandments. Not before. He says this when speaking on making an alter. He also gives other laws which come after him saying "say unto the children of israel" but still, the 10 commandments are mentioned before this as if only the second part was meant for the israelites.
"He sure wasn't resting. And He wasn't a Levite. Only :Levites coud work on Sabbath. Preaching was Jesus work and he did it on Sabbath." and again I say, Jesus did good on the sabbath. Preaching is good (if the message is in line with the bible which I'm sure Jesus's was). Jesus walked all around and preached on the sabbath. I've gone on sabbath hikes before and the point is to appreciate God's nature. We've hiked up to have service over a view to appreciate creation. The hike is work I'd say, but we're doin it with intentions of enjoying the sabbath day.
"The resurrection was part of the atoinment. Without the resurrection How would we have known that He was truly Chrst? He fulfilled the Old Testament prophesy. At His death the veil was torn signifying that the sacrifical era was over. His resurrection is the sign that all is for real. we can now celibrate a new beginning, a New Covenant. The law of Love is written on our hearts. No more sabbath rituals!" the sabbath was not some ritual made up by men, "and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it." it was a sacred day.
I forgot who gave the EGW comment but w/e...who cares about her right now, this is a sabbath issue and she is not Lord of the sabbath.
_____________________________
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The Sabbath was made for the Jew, not the Jew for the Sabbath.......sounds stupid doesn't it...
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RE: Sabbath - One Stop Thread - 7/16/2005 6:35:23 PM
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GrahamCracker
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Eldon,
A couple of points.
1) The scriptures you referred to involved Jews who attended the synagogue to practice Judaism and Gentile converts to Judaism, who would, of course, come to synagogue on the Sabbath as well.
The following points you sought to establish without the use of scripture.
2) Worshipping on Sunday instead of Saturday is sinful.
3) Only christians who practice Saturday worship are pleasing to God.
I, myself, am not opposed to Saturday worship. But, I tend to note that those who do also tend to be legalistic. Not only that, but those who do so tend to seek to imply that the rest of us are out of the will of God.
_____________________________
Larry
Sure we're under the law, everybody knows that!
When He said, "A new covenant," He has made the first obsolete. But whatever is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to disappear. (Heb 10:13)
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RE: Sabbath - One Stop Thread - 7/16/2005 7:32:30 PM
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BrotherEldon
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Hello Larry,
I worship God on Sunday also, I would urge you to do so also. Sin is the trangression of the Law. There is no law that states men should not worship on Sunday.
The early Church [second-third century] Assembled on Wednesday and Friday [both were fast days], and On Sabbath and Sunday [sunday being a day to indulge the flesh after service]...
It is neither sin to worship on Sunday, or not to worship on Sunday. What would be 'sin' is for us to trample upon a day that is blessed, hallowed and sanctified as God's personal holy day, after God commands us to "Keep it holy".. Notice the term "KEEP",, it was made holy in the garden, and we are to "keep" it set a part... Sunday, Monday, Tuesday, ..etc was not "Made Holy" and thus they cannot be "Kept" holy.
You may say the 10 Commandments do not speak to you as a New Covenant Christian,,, but they most certainly do. Paul quotes them as an Authorative Document to the Ephesians:
Ephesians 6:2 Honour thy father and mother; (which is the first commandment with promise;)
You may say, "Only Jews were required to keep Sabbath"..
But again this is not biblical... GOD requires ALL that love him to observe his holy day:
Isaiah 56:6 Also the sons of the stranger [gentiles], that join themselves to the LORD, to serve him, and to love the name of the LORD, to be his servants, every one that keepeth the sabbath from polluting it, and taketh hold of my covenant;
As far as "Worship" on Sabbath it is a matter of history that the early Church continued the Apostolic tradition of keeping Sabbath even until the fourth century.
Why wouldn't they? Since GOD never unblessed, unhallowed, or unsanctified it? Surely his commandments stand fast forever and ever, and done in truth and uprightness.
Sabbath Blessings
Bro. Eldon
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RE: Sabbath - One Stop Thread - 7/16/2005 7:35:20 PM
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Seventh Day Advocate
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you're being very specific there I think GC...It's not sunday worship that is sinful, it's the knowledge of the true day and then not following it that is sinful. This goes for every sin, if you know that hurting someone is wrong yet you do it anyways you are sinning. And your third point is not entirely true, at least the way you say it makes me feel like those who practice sunday worship can't please God. I don't want anyone to think that any sabbath keeper would preach that fact. I do believe however in that one aspect you aren't pleasing God. You can note that those who are saturday worshippers "tend" to be legalistic but also note that that fact is not true on a whole and that legalism is obviously wrong. This is not a personal attack but, I'm sorry if you don't appreciate the implication that you are out of the will of God but there's no "nice" way to say it. If you believe that your friends drug usage is wrong, it would be wrong of you not to alert them to this fact. Whether it implies that they are doing something foolish or not.
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The Sabbath was made for the Jew, not the Jew for the Sabbath.......sounds stupid doesn't it...
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RE: Sabbath - One Stop Thread - 7/16/2005 7:59:00 PM
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bobservations
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Right on Larry, we have shot holes in all their arguments. If Sabbath keepers feel a need to go back under the law and practice the legalism that the Jews did I Isurely can't stop them. I will keep trying though. I will let the lurkers and other poster know that what they are doing is not Biblical for anyone this side of the Cross.
I was convinced as a young person that the Sabbath was relevant to New Testament Christians. I was without much Bible knowledge. When approched by some SDA's they asked me if I believed in the 10 Commandments. I said sure and they quoted the 4th one and ask if I kept it. To make a long story short I became one. To make it shorter I am now free in Jesus. The yoke of Adventism no longer has it's strangle hold on me. I am sure of my salvation. I am free to worship any day I wish. My rest is in Jesus.
So Eldon, don't try to tell me about Sabbath and the blessing. Legalism isn't a blessing. Ellen has written volumes on what you can and cannot do on the Sabbath. She the greatest of the Pharasees. Adventists think more of the Sabbath than they do about loving their neighbor. Some study more about Sabbath than they do Jesus I was told to start preparing for the next Sabbath on Sunday. It was an all week process. The most important thing in their lives. All I can say is you all are brain washed. You can't read and decern the scriptures because of you pre-conceived ideas.
Again I ask, if it all so important why isn't there any instruction in the New Testament on how to keep it? Everything I read tells me that it isn't a requirement. I will keep thumping on those who insist that all should go back under the law till the Lord takes me home.
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RE: Sabbath - One Stop Thread - 7/16/2005 8:12:01 PM
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bobservations
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Seventh Day Advocate
you're being very specific there I think GC...It's not sunday worship that is sinful, it's the knowledge of the true day and then not following it that is sinful. Sin is breaking moral laws. Sabbath was a ritual law for theIsraelites only. So it isn't a sin for us Gentiles. Nor is it a sin for anyone this side of the Cross. This goes for every sin, if you know that hurting someone is wrong yet you do it anyways you are sinning. And your third point is not entirely true, at least the way you say it makes me feel like those who practice sunday worship can't please God. I don't want anyone to think that any sabbath keeper would preach that fact. Ellen did. I do believe however in that one aspect you aren't pleasing God. You can note that those who are saturday worshippers "tend" to be legalistic but also note that that fact is not true on a whole and that legalism is obviously wrong. Right, some know better and are staying around because of peer pressure and hoping the church will change. This is not a personal attack but, I'm sorry if you don't appreciate the implication that you are out of the will of God but there's no "nice" way to say it. Sure isn't and especially since it isn't true. If you believe that your friends drug usage is wrong, it would be wrong of you not to alert them to this fact. Whether it implies that they are doing something foolish or not.
Just couldn't help jumping in. boB
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RE: Sabbath - One Stop Thread - 7/16/2005 8:21:29 PM
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Seventh Day Advocate
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let me reiterate (spelling?) that this isn't an EGW issue. This is a sabbath issue and I have to say that some of you are making some hasty generalizations. You can say that Adventists are legalist and that's just as valid as saying that Christians are closeminded people. Like I said, no doubt some sabbath keepers value the sabbath over loving others but I will let you know that I do take offence at you saying "Adventists think more of the Sabbath than they do about loving their neighbor." but I'm sorry that you had such a bad experience in your Adventism but you don't need to be nasty "All I can say is you all are brain washed. You can't read and decern the scriptures because of you pre-conceived ideas."
why isn't there instruction on how to keep it? just look at Jesus' life, He is the only instruction we need on how to live ours.
I'm sorry but I'm finished here for this week, see you all next sabbath
_____________________________
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The Sabbath was made for the Jew, not the Jew for the Sabbath.......sounds stupid doesn't it...
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RE: Sabbath - One Stop Thread - 7/16/2005 9:02:25 PM
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bobservations
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quote:
ORIGINAL: rockv12
No, I or none of the Sabbath keepers I know believe you need to keep all the Old Covenant Laws. They were done away with. However, the Sabbath law was not. It is part of the Ten Commandments that are to be kept til' the end.
Sorry Rockv, I didn't see your post untill now. Since I know your belief about the Old Covenant maybe we can have a better debate. Thanks.
My belief is that the 10 Commandments are part of the Old Covenant. I see no partitions that separate one set from the other. Israelites accepted all the laws as a package. the Mosiac laws gave light on the 10 commandments. Without the other laws man would not have known it was alright to stone a person to death, because the commandment just told him not to kill. Likewise with Sabbath. The Mosiac laws shed light on the Sabbath. It told the Levites it was ok for them to work, build fires, eat the warm meat and do all the other tasks. They would have been desecrating the Sabbath if the law hadn't told them it was ok. I could site many more examples of how the 603 laws shed light on the 10. They stood together and they fell/Phased out together. Study Duet. 5 and I believe you will see how God meant that the whole package was for the Israelites. It was a covenant the Israelites agreed to keep. Part of it was written on stone and part was given to Moses through inspiration. All was sacred. All came to an end at the Cross.
This is where I believe Sabbath keepers fail to understand and why we are so far apart in our theology. You just can't understand how the 10 could be nailed to the Cross. I couldn't either for years. Jesus came because we can't of ouselves keep any of the laws. He kept them for us them abolished them in favor of the indwelling of the Holy Spirit to direct us in all rightousness (right doing). Sabbath no longer exists because the law no longer exists. We are free to assemble any day we choose. assembling on Saturday is noble. Nothing wrong with that. It is worth noting that the laws associated with worshipping on Saturday are no longer in existence. We are no longer obligated to "keep" the day.
I have many friends in my former Sabbath keeping church. I would be worshipping with them on Saturday if they were not so adamant about sabbath laws. I disrupted my life when I left, but I had to go. We just didn't agree about some doctrines and the prophet. I guess all are happy now. I know I have been blessed to know more of the truths from the Bible.
Thanks for reading this. I pray it helps you to see my view. boB
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RE: Sabbath - One Stop Thread - 7/16/2005 9:42:27 PM
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bobservations
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I apologize seventh day. I didn' mean to come across as "nasty". I am just telling you what I and others did.
I could have done many things for my neighbors and was asked many times, but I chose to go to church like a good Sabbath keeper. I would tell them that I could help tomorrow, but they didn't understand and after a while they quit asking and we lost some of our relationship. This is what I am talking about. Sabbath is more important than people. It happens and for no good reason. I could and should have helped my neighbors.
The neighborhood had block parties on Sabbath. I wouldn't attend. I wasn't helping to be a part of the neighborhood. I couldn't attend my high school alumni because it was on Sabbath. I wasn't helping to hold it together. Sabbath was too important. There was a halo around the commandment and if I broke the holy day and did my own pleasure I was certainly out of Grace with my Maker. My classmates thought I was to good to fellowship with them and my restrictive day forbade me to make amends and attend. I didn't even visit my own Mother because she might have the television on or it wouldn't be sabbath talk. It would have been breaking the Sabbath. The Sabbath was too important. It came before my Mom. I could only fellowship with like believers. Ever hear this?
Well, I now know better and am having a great time re-acquainting myself with neighbors, family and friends, but for years I marched to the false drummer.
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RE: Sabbath - One Stop Thread - 7/16/2005 10:10:33 PM
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a-lily
Posts: 60
Joined: 5/15/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Eutychus
quote:
We aren't going to turn off our electricity to our house on the Sabbath because someone down the wires is being forced to work because of it. There's a balance of ridiculousness to obedience and reverence for the Holy day.
It's not about someone down the line working. Turning on the PC, turning on the tube, turning on the stove, turning on the lights, all would be considered profaning the Sabbath under OT standards. Even driving a car. The means of doing work have changed but, if they still apply, the principles are the same. Under the OT Sabbath standards, you did not initiate work, you prepared food the day before, you didn't hitch up the mule to ride across town. Either keep the day or don't kid yourself.
You are right is is not about someone down the line "working", but it is also not about "turing" things on either. its about the command that states one should not light a fire on the sabbath (Ex 35 : 3). turning on a light, stove, car, pc, ect... creates a spark, some Jews consider that spark a fire so they don't turn those things on.
as for me personally. i don't build a fire in my fireplace on the Sabbath.
lily
_____________________________
"I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished." -Jesus Matthew 5 : 18
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RE: Sabbath - One Stop Thread - 7/17/2005 12:07:00 AM
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bobservations
Posts: 921
Joined: 4/11/2005
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That doesn't make a nickles worth of difference to me when it occures. And as for the fire in the fireplace, that rings of legalism at its best. What other things do you don't do on sabbath?
What would it take for ya'all to understand? Not blind , but still cannot see.
< Message edited by bobservations -- 7/17/2005 12:09:02 AM >
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RE: Sabbath - One Stop Thread - 7/17/2005 12:20:08 AM
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bobservations
Posts: 921
Joined: 4/11/2005
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A, will you be back tomorrow? It is getting late here in the eastern time zone and I need to hit the sack.
All I will say tonight is this: you need to study with an open mind and without the help of your peers. Right now you don't have a clue what you are mimicking. It all seems great, but it just isn't so. Peace, boB
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RE: Sabbath - One Stop Thread - 7/17/2005 12:24:10 AM
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a-lily
Posts: 60
Joined: 5/15/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: bobservations
as for the fire in the fireplace, that rings of legalism at its best. What other things do you don't do on sabbath? Does your furnace run. How about the frig. Bet you don't turn it off. Maybe I shouldn't have reminded you about the frig. You might just do it. Food spoils in a hurry.
What would it take for ya'all to understand? Not blind , but still cannot see.
You will neeed to define legalism, better than that.
For me legalism is:
1.Following the traditions of man as if they were commands of God.
2.Taking the commands of God and doing them for your salvation.
Neither of which applies to me, not lighting a fire in my fireplace on the Sabbath. Its not a command from man and I don't follow it to save my soul.
lily
_____________________________
"I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished." -Jesus Matthew 5 : 18
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RE: Sabbath - One Stop Thread - 7/17/2005 12:45:35 AM
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a-lily
Posts: 60
Joined: 5/15/2005
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quote:
I was convinced as a young person that the Sabbath was relevant to New Testament Christians. I was without much Bible knowledge. When approched by some SDA's they asked me if I believed in the 10 Commandments. I said sure and they quoted the 4th one and ask if I kept it. To make a long story short I became one. To make it shorter I am now free in Jesus. The yoke of Adventism no longer has it's strangle hold on me. I am sure of my salvation. I am free to worship any day I wish. My rest is in Jesus.
Not all of us that keep the Sabbth are SDA.
I was also in a very legalist church for a few years. I understand fully what it is to be in bondage. God graciously removed me from that church to a church that really understood what it was to love. Years later the Lord opened the Torah up to me.
I would not be apart of anything that would put me back in legalism. I do follow Torah now but I follow it in freedom.
I don't keep Torah to be saved, I keep Torah because I'm saved. Without Messiah the Torah is dead.
lily
_____________________________
"I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished." -Jesus Matthew 5 : 18
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RE: Sabbath - One Stop Thread - 7/17/2005 12:11:37 PM
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EZ_03
Posts: 77
Joined: 4/13/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Eutychus
quote:
ORIGINAL: gambit
Tell me exactly how you keep a sabbath? Do you turn on.. a computer...
I raised a similar question last Saturday when a couple of Sabbath keepers were posting and got mostly what equates to blank stares - didn't get my point at all.
you did this in post 71 of the previous sabbath vs. sunday thread. it was directed at the three individuals who were taking the pro-Sabbath position: rockv12, seventhdayadvocate and myself.
you say you were met with blank stares, but the truth is you were responded to immediately in post 72 (rock's 1st post after your statement, post 75 (SDA's 1st post after your statement) and 127 (my 1st series of posts after your statement). SDA further clarified his position on the matter in 77, 99.
the truth is you were not met with blank stares.
to restate my position, which seemed to be the concensus: no apologies for discussing the Word with God's children on God's holy day. it is what Yeshua did. we are to follow His example.
_____________________________
Open my eyes that I may behold wonderful things from Your Torah. (Psalms 119:18)
Do we then nullify the Law through faith? May it never be! On the contrary, we establish the Law. (Romans 3:31)
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RE: Sabbath - One Stop Thread - 7/17/2005 1:46:38 PM
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EZ_03
Posts: 77
Joined: 4/13/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: bobservations
Ez or any Sabbath keeper, you have glossed over my questions to you. I'll state them again:
no glossing, just prioritizing. besides these have all been answered by me to you in varying degrees in previous threads.
quote:
do you keep the other Old Covenant days?
no one keeps them. there is no Temple and no priesthood and we are out of the Land. i remember them and honor them, because they are shadows of things that are coming according to paul. they enrich my knowledge of Messiah and His work, the Father and His character. before you bellow, "well then if you can't do it 100%, then don't do it all..." i'll pre-emptively counter with the fact that in the Torah, God promises that when His people, who are out of the Land, are faithful to His commandments, He will bring them back...how could they "be faithful" with no Temple and no functioning priesthood? God seems to honor sincere attempts in this aspect.
quote:
Do you believe you should?
Messiah did, i want to...
"should" is an incredibly loaded word. i "should," and for me to turn my back on them after having my eyes opened to them would indeed be a step backwards. in the sense they have been a tremendous blessing for me and my family and numerous others i know, and the sense that i want as many of my believing brethren to share in this blessing, i think they "should" too. and finally, in the sense that i think every element of the Torah reveals some aspect of God's character, i think any redeemed and delivered child "should" want to walk in the ways our Father has given.
if you're using the word in some salvific sense, that's not my position to determine.
kevin
_____________________________
Open my eyes that I may behold wonderful things from Your Torah. (Psalms 119:18)
Do we then nullify the Law through faith? May it never be! On the contrary, we establish the Law. (Romans 3:31)
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RE: Sabbath - One Stop Thread - 7/17/2005 1:47:47 PM
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EZ_03
Posts: 77
Joined: 4/13/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: bobservations
Do yo(sic) keep the other laws of Moses, such as wearing tassels?
i'm still studying the issue of tassels/tzitzit. the command is found in Numbers and Deuteronomy. Numbers says "garment" and Deuteronomy says "cloak." as Deuteronomy often provides expansion on those commands found previously, i'm not sure how to interpret this. if it just means "cloak"/tallit, then i will wear them once i have a tallit. glad to discuss in PM format why i do not have a tallit yet. if i become convinced it means all garments, then i will wear them.
now, what i always find so amusing is why this is ever brought up. does another's obedience or disobedience give the questioner the license to disregard the expectations God has set forth? as one proclaiming any given message, does one's ability to 100% be faithful to it determine whether or not one proclaims the message? e.g., as a "christian" does one wait until they can fully exemplify all the character traits and physical acts of obedience set forth in the "NT" before they share the message? as one trying to share the "Messiah-in-Torah and Torah-thru-Messiah" message, i make no claims to walk it out 100% like Jesus did. i just want to walk in His steps, as He commanded us. it is what the hebrew word talmid (disciple) entails...actually doing something, not just "believing" it...
_____________________________
Open my eyes that I may behold wonderful things from Your Torah. (Psalms 119:18)
Do we then nullify the Law through faith? May it never be! On the contrary, we establish the Law. (Romans 3:31)
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RE: Sabbath - One Stop Thread - 7/17/2005 1:49:13 PM
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EZ_03
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(now if you were using "profit" to be synonymous with "blessing" i think it's fine to expect God's faitfulness to His promises and never mind...)