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RE: Sabbath - One Stop Thread - 9/19/2008 1:17:50 PM
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mcleod
Posts: 1071
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quote:
As I have said before, except for a few examples and general instruction such as to not do ones ordinary work, Ha Torah does not give us much direction with regard to keeping Shabbat. The ideas of not traveling more than a mile, not flipping a lighty switch, etc. are rabbinic. I personally have no problem with your example, except the rule in my house, not Adonai's rule, is not to exert one self or break a sweat. At such a time we need to slow down or stop.
I would be screwed in your house unless you have air-conditioning. And you can ask my wife if this is true. But I can sweat very easily and not do anything but just sitting.
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RE: Sabbath - One Stop Thread - 9/19/2008 1:44:25 PM
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mcleod
Posts: 1071
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quote:
We're not resting from the penalty of our sins. We are resting from our own efforts to avoid those penalties. The requirements of the law were the prescribed duties that one worked at to insure one's place in God and avoid damnation. An impossible and burdensome task that no one could fulfill.
But now in Christ we have been delivered from that cruel taskmaster and now rest in his finished work (like creation, finished from the foundation of the world). Now our station in God is guaranteed through believing, not our efforts at keeping the law.
Christ is our Sabbath rest from our efforts to save ourselves, and believing is now the 'work' of the people of God. And believing always manifests itself in love. And love is the fulfillment of the law. As John says, faith is what makes God's commands unburdensome. We find rest, while the never-ending ceremonial requirements of the law get met through the work of Christ, and the moral requirements (our part) get fulfilled in the power of the Holy Spirit. What a wise and powerful solution for man's seemingly impossible situation.
Thank God for the New Covenant.
I know this has been brought to Bluethread's attention many of times. Yet for some reason he won't accept it to mean something symbolic. But here is what Yeshua said" I tell you the truth,you are looking for me, not because you saw miraculous signs, but because you ate loaves and had your fill. Do not work for food that spoils, but for food that endures to eternal life, which the Son of Man will give you. On him God the Father has placed his seal of approval". Later on in the writings we read again" I tell you the truth, it is not Moses who has given you the bread from heaven, but it is my Father who gives you the true bread from heaven. For the bread of God is he who comes down from heaven and gives life to the world". Then he states this "I am the bread of life. He who comes to me will never go hungry, and he who believes in me will never be thirsty. But as I told you have seen me and still you do not believe". He goes on to explain that anyone who comes to him he will not cast out.
But I want you to notice something here in what he says later on. "I am the bread that came down from heaven. So here he is saying he was the mana that fell from the sky as the children of Israel went through the desert and feed them. tjhe children od Israel would need to put faith in that was sent from heaven would feed them and have their fill for the day. Notice also they could only gather the bread for six days and on the seven there was none around.
Seems to me there are a lot of symbols used in the story of that jounery for us to understand what Jesus Christ means to us today.
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RE: Sabbath - One Stop Thread - 9/19/2008 3:48:23 PM
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Bluethread
Posts: 1492
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quote:
ORIGINAL: SpongeBlog
quote:
ORIGINAL: Bluethread
I also believe we rest from the penalty of sin. However, the concept of eternal Sabbath is an oximoron. If one is resting all of the time, there is no Sabbath. There is a rest, but that is not Shabbat.
We're not resting from the penalty of our sins. We are resting from our own efforts to avoid those penalties. The requirements of the law were the prescribed duties that one worked at to insure one's place in God and avoid damnation. An impossible and burdensome task that no one could fulfill.
Let us see what Paul says about the idea that The requirements of the law were the prescribed duties that one worked at to insure one's place in God and avoid damnation.
Rom 4:13 It was not through law that Abraham and his offspring received the promise that he would be heir of the world, but through the righteousness that comes by faith.
Paul is telling us salvation has always been by faith, and is it reasonable for Adonai to require Abraham's offspring do what you say is (a)n impossible and burdensome task that no one could fulfill.
And what does Adonai say regarding the diificulty of the commandments.
(Deut. 30:11) "For this mitzvah which I am giving you today is not too hard for you, it is not beyond your reach . . ."
And John affirms this.
1Jo 5:3 "This is love for God: to obey his commands. And his commands are not burdensome, . . ."
So, we see Adonai's ways are not too difficult and that purpose of the law was never to insure one's place in God and avoid damnation anyway. Also, keeping the weekly Shgabbat is one of the least "burdensome" of all of the commandments.
quote:
But now in Christ we have been delivered from that cruel taskmaster and now rest in his finished work (like creation, finished from the foundation of the world). Now our station in God is guaranteed through believing, not our efforts at keeping the law.
Let's look at where we get this concept of Ha Torah as a "taskmaster". Generally, it comes from the KJV of Gal 3:24-26 "Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith. But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster. For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus."
The term which is translated "schoolmaster" refers to a slave that is charged with the care of the masters son. Thus, we don't have a cruel taskmaster, if such a slave were to treat his charge in a cruel manner he would be risking a bad report to the master from his charge. Indeed, we nave record Adonai's people complaining regarding this slave. Adonai assures us that the slave is indeed acting in accordance with His wishes.
Now, that we have the record of Yeshua's life and teachings we no longer need to be dependant on just Ha Torah, Adonai's Spirit can guide us with a practical application.
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Christ is our Sabbath rest from our efforts to save ourselves, and believing is now the 'work' of the people of God. And believing always manifests itself in love. And love is the fulfillment of the law. As John says, faith is what makes God's commands unburdensome.
I don't recall seeing anywhere in the Scriptures where Yeshua is refered to as "our Sabbath rest" though I do agree that works never have saved anyone, believing has always manifest itself in love, acting on a correct understanding of love has always been the puirpose of Ha Torah, and faith has always been a factor in making keeping Shabbat easier.
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We find rest, while the never-ending ceremonial requirements of the law get met through the work of Christ, and the moral requirements (our part) get fulfilled in the power of the Holy Spirit. What a wise and powerful solution for man's seemingly impossible situation.
Up to this point we have been talking about Ha Torah's role in salvation. Now it apears we are shifting gears. It is important to note that so we don't get confused. I'm not sure what you are refering to by the never-ending ceremonial requirements. That can mean a list of requirements that seems to never end or requirements that never end. Though the requirements can never encompass the true nature of Adonai, no matter how many there are. there really aren't as many requirements in Ha Torah as some think. Regarding the idea that those commandments never end seems to be contrary to what you have said before.
Once again, I am confused regarding your "ceremonial" and "moral" ditinction. Under which category do baptism, communion, and not forsaking the assemlbing together fall. Are we not to do these things?
_____________________________
"Show me wherein I have errored and I will hold my tongue." Iyov(Job)
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RE: Sabbath - One Stop Thread - 9/20/2008 9:51:54 AM
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SpongeBlog
Posts: 976
Joined: 12/9/2006
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quote:
ORIGINAL: mcleod
quote:
We're not resting from the penalty of our sins. We are resting from our own efforts to avoid those penalties. The requirements of the law were the prescribed duties that one worked at to insure one's place in God and avoid damnation. An impossible and burdensome task that no one could fulfill.
But now in Christ we have been delivered from that cruel taskmaster and now rest in his finished work (like creation, finished from the foundation of the world). Now our station in God is guaranteed through believing, not our efforts at keeping the law.
Christ is our Sabbath rest from our efforts to save ourselves, and believing is now the 'work' of the people of God. And believing always manifests itself in love. And love is the fulfillment of the law. As John says, faith is what makes God's commands unburdensome. We find rest, while the never-ending ceremonial requirements of the law get met through the work of Christ, and the moral requirements (our part) get fulfilled in the power of the Holy Spirit. What a wise and powerful solution for man's seemingly impossible situation.
Thank God for the New Covenant.
I know this has been brought to Bluethread's attention many of times. Yet for some reason he won't accept it to mean something symbolic. But here is what Yeshua said" I tell you the truth,you are looking for me, not because you saw miraculous signs, but because you ate loaves and had your fill. Do not work for food that spoils, but for food that endures to eternal life, which the Son of Man will give you. On him God the Father has placed his seal of approval". Later on in the writings we read again" I tell you the truth, it is not Moses who has given you the bread from heaven, but it is my Father who gives you the true bread from heaven. For the bread of God is he who comes down from heaven and gives life to the world". Then he states this "I am the bread of life. He who comes to me will never go hungry, and he who believes in me will never be thirsty. But as I told you have seen me and still you do not believe". He goes on to explain that anyone who comes to him he will not cast out.
But I want you to notice something here in what he says later on. "I am the bread that came down from heaven. So here he is saying he was the mana that fell from the sky as the children of Israel went through the desert and feed them. tjhe children od Israel would need to put faith in that was sent from heaven would feed them and have their fill for the day. Notice also they could only gather the bread for six days and on the seven there was none around.
Seems to me there are a lot of symbols used in the story of that jounery for us to understand what Jesus Christ means to us today.
Very good post. Too many miss the connection between the manna and the Sabbath, which estasblishes the real meaning of the Sabbath. It clearly illustrates what it means to have the faith to rest from our labors of keeping ourselves alive spiritually and instead trust God for the life-giving bread of life that he provides. An understanding made even more meaningful with the prohibition against the lighting of a fire and cooking on that day. Both of which represent our personal efforts to sustain life.
Once a person sees this and understands it in the Spirit it makes the legalisms of the command itself fade into insignificance. Until then a person is probably going to concentrate on the symbols themselves as the goal of the command instead of the spiritual truth it seeks to teach. That doesn't mean you can't or shouldn't observe a literal Sabbath day. But I have yet to meet anyone who convinced me that they fully understand what I just shared and who also put the literal in second place behind the spiritual where it belongs.
It seems to be one or the other. Either you grasp the spiritual and release (to one degree or another) the literal, or you grasp the literal and release the spiritual. Even when messianics acknowledge the spiritual truths behind Sabbath (reluctantly) they always gravitate back toward the importance of doing it literally (on this day, during these hours...). Which tells me they don't really see and appreciate with their hearts the meaning of the spiritual.
< Message edited by SpongeBlog -- 9/20/2008 10:04:38 AM >
_____________________________
"For the kingdom of God is not a matter of eating and drinking, but of righteousness, peace and joy in the Holy Spirit, because anyone who serves Christ in this way is pleasing to God and approved by men." (Romans 14:17,18)
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RE: Sabbath - One Stop Thread - 9/20/2008 11:38:01 AM
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SpongeBlog
Posts: 976
Joined: 12/9/2006
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Bluethread
quote:
ORIGINAL: Bluethread
Let us see what Paul says about the idea that The requirements of the law were the prescribed duties that one worked at to insure one's place in God and avoid damnation.
Rom 4:13 It was not through law that Abraham and his offspring received the promise that he would be heir of the world, but through the righteousness that comes by faith.
He contrasts the righteousness of faith with the righteousness that comes by law. Abraham and the ancient Israelites were commanded to be righteous in order to lay hold of the promise. The law was that way, later given by God, on how to present themselves as righteous before God. God did that so we'd all see the futility of that way and give up our efforts to be seen as righteous through works of law, and instead seek to be seen as righteous through believing--the way Abraham was declared righteous. Justification through perfect obedience to the law is legit (it's just unrealistic for fallen man). If you or I could have kept the law perfectly from our youth we would be seen as righteous before God. God was not lying when he said the law would be our declaration of righteousness. It proved to be the exact opposite, or course.
quote:
ORIGINAL: Bluethread
Paul is telling us salvation has always been by faith, and is it reasonable for Adonai to require Abraham's offspring do what you say is (a)n impossible and burdensome task that no one could fulfill.
We know only those who have faith can be saved. And we know that perfect faith (that saves) would result in perfect obedience to the law. Obedience to the law really was a way to be righteous, because it showed you had the faith that saves. But instead it shows our lack of faith, the exact thing God intended it to do for fallen man. That's why he gave that impossible task to Abraham's descendants.
But that does not negate the fact that one could really be seen as righteous by following the law perfectly from youth (for only a faithful person could do that). And the Bible clearly tells us God laid that burden of the law that he knew we couldn't keep on us so we'd find righteousness in the only realistic way possible for fallen man--through faith. It's no mystery why God gave us the impossible task of the requirements of the law. And knowing that reason is what makes it not unreasonable.
quote:
ORIGINAL: Bluethread
And what does Adonai say regarding the diificulty of the commandments.
(Deut. 30:11) "For this mitzvah which I am giving you today is not too hard for you, it is not beyond your reach . . ."
Yeah, if you had perfect faith. Which is the very reason why these unburdensome things are in truth very burdensome. It's a lack of faith that makes his commands burdensome (which, by the way, I will never have the faith to enjoy Lev. 15 literally; and don't need to now that I know it's legitiamte spiritual fulfillment). And this addresses your next point...
quote:
ORIGINAL: Bluethread
And John affirms this.
1Jo 5:3 "This is love for God: to obey his commands. And his commands are not burdensome, . . ."
So, we see Adonai's ways are not too difficult and that purpose of the law was never to insure one's place in God and avoid damnation anyway.
Be honest and stop quoting this out of context of the letter. John said the 'command(s)' of God are to believe, and love your brother (which he also calls 'doing what is right', obviously in accordance with Jeremiah 22:15-16).
quote:
ORIGINAL: Bluethread
Also, keeping the weekly Shgabbat is one of the least "burdensome" of all of the commandments.
This is a joke. You do not live a realistic life if you think it's easy to just let things go that need to be done when you have the time to do them. Which only confirms to me that you only don't do things on the Sabbath that have no consequence anyway. Your other statements through the months have shown me that and this confirms it. I'm not impressed by that. That's not the obedience of faith that you're saying your literal observance is supposed to express. I've noticed this in your descriptions of what you do and don't do on Sabbath. I can't help but to see that it's really more about the legalism of the day you go to church on and the hours that day comprises for you than anything else. Meaningless legalism in light of New Covenant revelation.
quote:
ORIGINAL: Bluethread
quote:
But now in Christ we have been delivered from that cruel taskmaster and now rest in his finished work (like creation, finished from the foundation of the world). Now our station in God is guaranteed through believing, not our efforts at keeping the law.
Let's look at where we get this concept of Ha Torah as a "taskmaster". Generally, it comes from the KJV of Gal 3:24-26 "Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith. But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster. For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus."
The term which is translated "schoolmaster" refers to a slave that is charged with the care of the masters son. Thus, we don't have a cruel taskmaster, if such a slave were to treat his charge in a cruel manner he would be risking a bad report to the master from his charge. Indeed, we nave record Adonai's people complaining regarding this slave. Adonai assures us that the slave is indeed acting in accordance with His wishes.
We are no longer under the guidance of that 'slave' who made sure we did what we were supposed to do. That does not mean categorically that we now do exactly what that 'slave' poked and proded us to do (as if messianics were really doing that anyway) on our own. Paul's discourse in Romans 7 about remarriage illustrates how we can in fact be released from the things that the law, the taskmaster, made us do but which we are now set free from to do. Things that actually look like they are in direct contradiction to the taskmaster's original instructions!.
Your argument here is no good in light of all we know of what it means to no longer be under the guidance of the law. Life in the Spirit often give the appearance of being in outright violation of the letter of the law. That's the stumbling block messianics can't get over. The complete end of animal sacrifice for sin, and literal circumcision now being understood as a meaningless illustration of spiritual circumcision, are iron-clad proofs of what I'm saying. The Bible teaches that both of these requirements of the law are fulfilled in a 'not to the letter of the law' way. And you prove that you can't get over it by your continued insistance that they carry the same significance now as they did then in utter defiance of scripture. If you tell me that you aren't insistant about that, then also include your acknowledgement that God's voice concerning those things has indeed changed.
quote:
ORIGINAL: Bluethread
I don't recall seeing anywhere in the Scriptures where Yeshua is refered to as "our Sabbath rest"...
It's figurative. That's why you can't see it. You seem to only be able to grasp literal things for some reason (I'm perplexed by this condition). Christ's work has afforded us a rest from the effort of trying to be justified through labors of the law. Anyone who didn't keep the law in the OT was damned. You know this. Faith being the answer to avoiding that damnatiion doesn't negate the truth that one could theoretically labor successfully under the law to be justified (declared to be a righteous person). It's theorectical because we are fallen. If we were perfect, we'd succeed at justifying ourselves by the law.
quote:
ORIGINAL: Bluethread
...I'm not sure what you are refering to by the never-ending ceremonial requirements. That can mean a list of requirements that seems to never end or requirements that never end.
Do you think a person under the law was ever done making sacrifices and marching to the never-ending beat of the OT timetable of feasts and sabbaths? It was entirely your responsibility to keep in step with it. Thank God that believing is the 'work' that continually plugs in Christ's work on our behalf and fulfills the requirements of these sacrifices and timetables. Now that's rest.
quote:
ORIGINAL: Bluethread
Once again, I am confused regarding your "ceremonial" and "moral" ditinction. Under which category do baptism, communion, and not forsaking the assemlbing together fall. Are we not to do these things?
How does a ceremonial law affect me? If I don't go to church today or tomorrow, how does that affect you? But I don't need to ask how my drunkenness, or my coveting your wife might affect you. Thus the difference between a moral command and a ceremonial one. Christ fulfilled the ceremonial requirements for me in his work on the cross. The Holy Spirit gives me the faith to believe in that work offered up to God on my behalf (his sacrifice being the most easily understood). And the Holy Spirit gives me the power to keep the moral requirement to love others. Believing is the 'work' that fulfills both the ceremonial and moral parts of the law.
And until another Paul comes along and leads us into greater understanding and relegates the literal to purely optional (I don't expect it) we will continue to fulfill the literal in regard to the things you listed, just as the Israelites continued to do so in regard to their commanded procedures.
< Message edited by SpongeBlog -- 9/20/2008 11:53:29 AM >
_____________________________
"For the kingdom of God is not a matter of eating and drinking, but of righteousness, peace and joy in the Holy Spirit, because anyone who serves Christ in this way is pleasing to God and approved by men." (Romans 14:17,18)
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RE: Sabbath - One Stop Thread - 9/20/2008 11:57:20 AM
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SpongeBlog
Posts: 976
Joined: 12/9/2006
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I know there's a lot of 'law' stuff in our recent posts that should be in the law thread. So I will be moving any future discussion concerning general matters of the law over to the law thread and focusing on the Sabbath discussion here from now on.
_____________________________
"For the kingdom of God is not a matter of eating and drinking, but of righteousness, peace and joy in the Holy Spirit, because anyone who serves Christ in this way is pleasing to God and approved by men." (Romans 14:17,18)
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RE: Sabbath - One Stop Thread - 9/20/2008 1:11:11 PM
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SpongeBlog
Posts: 976
Joined: 12/9/2006
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I said in an earlier post that I wanted to address some insights concerning the Catholic's view of Sabbath. Well, I don't have a lot of time, but I wonder if you, Bthread, know what 'anathema' means? I'm not testing your knowledge. I didn't know exactly what it meant until I read it in the Catholic document outlawing Saturday Sabbath. I believe the word is used in the KJV in Galatians. It may help you and others understand the motivation and thinking behind the Catholics move away from OT worship law. Which in turn sealed the course of church history from then on (I say sealed because we all know Sunday meetings had been occurring long before the Catholic declaration of 325, or whenever it was).
It's obvious (to me anyway) they retain the 'resting' requirement of God because it has it's original revelation in creation, before the law. But they reject the specific sabbath day of the week requirement as being part of the law--the part of the law they consider the observance of as being 'anathema' (it says that right in their church law).
What could we expect of a person who (mistakenly?) considered the ceremonial aspects of the law to be anathema? Would it be right for them to violate their conscience if they think something is anathema, like Paul says about circumcision being a means of justification?
We've proven beyond a shadow of a doubt amongst ourselves that these matters we discuss are indeed disputable. Now it would be ridiculous to respect and honor someone's conscience to commit murder, or adultery--undisputable matters. But matters of OT worship really are in honest dispute. Conscience is a big part of how we deal with those matters. And that should apply both ways, don't you think? According to Catholic belief, the literal sabbath observance was anathema.
I know their conclusions are probably a little misguided, but a little insight might help explain how they arrived at those conclusions and help us see that maybe they're not as conspiratorial (even anti-christ) as some suggest and use as the motivator of their own return to OT worship.
_____________________________
"For the kingdom of God is not a matter of eating and drinking, but of righteousness, peace and joy in the Holy Spirit, because anyone who serves Christ in this way is pleasing to God and approved by men." (Romans 14:17,18)
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RE: Sabbath - One Stop Thread - 9/21/2008 4:59:38 AM
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Bluethread
Posts: 1492
Joined: 11/8/2007
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quote:
ORIGINAL: SpongeBlog
quote:
ORIGINAL: Bluethread
Rom 4:13 It was not through law that Abraham and his offspring received the promise that he would be heir of the world, but through the righteousness that comes by faith.
He contrasts the righteousness of faith with the righteousness that comes by law. Abraham and the ancient Israelites were commanded to be righteous in order to lay hold of the promise. The law was that way, later given by God, on how to present themselves as righteous before God. God did that so we'd all see the futility of that way and give up our efforts to be seen as righteous through works of law, and instead seek to be seen as righteous through believing--the way Abraham was declared righteous. Justification through perfect obedience to the law is legit (it's just unrealistic for fallen man). If you or I could have kept the law perfectly from our youth we would be seen as righteous before God. God was not lying when he said the law would be our declaration of righteousness. It proved to be the exact opposite, or course.
Let's be clear here. It appears that you are saying that anyone who did not keep Shabbat perfectly as you understand it should be kept, before the sacrifice of Yeshua, was not saved? Is this your view?
quote:
We know only those who have faith can be saved. And we know that perfect faith (that saves) would result in perfect obedience to the law. Obedience to the law really was a way to be righteous, because it showed you had the faith that saves. But instead it shows our lack of faith, the exact thing God intended it to do for fallen man. That's why he gave that impossible task to Abraham's descendants.
But that does not negate the fact that one could really be seen as righteous by following the law perfectly from youth (for only a faithful person could do that). And the Bible clearly tells us God laid that burden of the law that he knew we couldn't keep on us so we'd find righteousness in the only realistic way possible for fallen man--through faith. It's no mystery why God gave us the impossible task of the requirements of the law. And knowing that reason is what makes it not unreasonable.
Let's see if I get this straight. We agree salvation is by grace through faith. You assert the Adonai commanded the Isrealites to keep Shabbat, knowing it could not be done. Then, you conclude an Israelite who did not keep Shabbat did not have faith. However, if Shabbat could not be kept, then it was impossible for an Isrealite to have faith. Therefore, no Israelite who died before Yeshua's sacrifice was saved. Is that what you are saying?
quote:
quote:
ORIGINAL: Bluethread
And what does Adonai say regarding the diificulty of the commandments.
(Deut. 30:11) "For this mitzvah which I am giving you today is not too hard for you, it is not beyond your reach . . ."
Yeah, if you had perfect faith. Which is the very reason why these unburdensome things are in truth very burdensome. It's a lack of faith that makes his commands burdensome (which, by the way, I will never have the faith to enjoy Lev. 15 literally; and don't need to now that I know it's legitiamte spiritual fulfillment). And this addresses your next point...
Yet, you denigh salvation to those faith, as you define it, is greater than yours.
quote:
quote:
ORIGINAL: Bluethread
Also, keeping the weekly Shgabbat is one of the least "burdensome" of all of the commandments.
This is a joke. You do not live a realistic life if you think it's easy to just let things go that need to be done when you have the time to do them. Which only confirms to me that you only don't do things on the Sabbath that have no consequence anyway. Your other statements through the months have shown me that and this confirms it. I'm not impressed by that. That's not the obedience of faith that you're saying your literal observance is supposed to express. I've noticed this in your descriptions of what you do and don't do on Sabbath. I can't help but to see that it's really more about the legalism of the day you go to church on and the hours that day comprises for you than anything else. Meaningless legalism in light of New Covenant revelation.
Please, elaberate. Specifically, what are you saying I do that violates the keeping of Shabbat? If you could, also quote the specific Scripture. This might be much more valuable than these constant references to the "burdensome" Shabbat.
quote:
We are no longer under the guidance of that 'slave' who made sure we did what we were supposed to do. That does not mean categorically that we now do exactly what that 'slave' poked and proded us to do (as if messianics were really doing that anyway) on our own. Paul's discourse in Romans 7 about remarriage illustrates how we can in fact be released from the things that the law, the taskmaster, made us do but which we are now set free from to do. Things that actually look like they are in direct contradiction to the taskmaster's original instructions!.
Paul is talking to those "who know the law" as if married to it. The truth is that we were never married to the law but to Adonai and we follow Adonai's instructions as a wife follows the instructions of her husband. When Adonai appeared we received a clear representation of what He always intended. Therefore, it is even easier for us to understand how He wishes us to live.
quote:
Your argument here is no good in light of all we know of what it means to no longer be under the guidance of the law. Life in the Spirit often give the appearance of being in outright violation of the letter of the law. That's the stumbling block messianics can't get over. The complete end of animal sacrifice for sin, and literal circumcision now being understood as a meaningless illustration of spiritual circumcision, are iron-clad proofs of what I'm saying. The Bible teaches that both of these requirements of the law are fulfilled in a 'not to the letter of the law' way. And you prove that you can't get over it by your continued insistance that they carry the same significance now as they did then in utter defiance of scripture. If you tell me that you aren't insistant about that, then also include your acknowledgement that God's voice concerning those things has indeed changed.
I will respond to this only because I don't wish to be seen as unresponsive. This paragraph is no more than a long winded diatribe of presumption, dogma and condemnation. I see no clear question or unbiased statement that can be discussed without more clarification.
quote:
quote:
ORIGINAL: Bluethread
I don't recall seeing anywhere in the Scriptures where Yeshua is refered to as "our Sabbath rest"...
It's figurative. That's why you can't see it. You seem to only be able to grasp literal things for some reason (I'm perplexed by this condition). Christ's work has afforded us a rest from the effort of trying to be justified through labors of the law. Anyone who didn't keep the law in the OT was damned. You know this. Faith being the answer to avoiding that damnatiion doesn't negate the truth that one could theoretically labor successfully under the law to be justified (declared to be a righteous person). It's theorectical because we are fallen. If we were perfect, we'd succeed at justifying ourselves by the law. Emphasis Mine
I'm glad you made this clear. If no one can keep Ha Torah,as you stated earlier and "anyone who didn't keep the law in the OT was damned", then everyone before the appearance of Yeshua in the flesh was damned. So, much for chapter 11 of Hebrews.
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ORIGINAL: Bluethread
Once again, I am confused regarding your "ceremonial" and "moral" ditinction. Under which category do baptism, communion, and not forsaking the assemlbing together fall. Are we not to do these things?
How does a ceremonial law affect me? If I don't go to church today or tomorrow, how does that affect you? But I don't need to ask how my drunkenness, or my coveting your wife might affect you. Thus the difference between a moral command and a ceremonial one. Christ fulfilled the ceremonial requirements for me in his work on the cross. The Holy Spirit gives me the faith to believe in that work offered up to God on my behalf (his sacrifice being the most easily understood). And the Holy Spirit gives me the power to keep the moral requirement to love others. Believing is the 'work' that fulfills both the ceremonial and moral parts of the law.
And until another Paul comes along and leads us into greater understanding and relegates the literal to purely optional (I don't expect it) we will continue to fulfill the literal in regard to the things you listed, just as the Israelites continued to do so in regard to their commanded procedures.
If I do not get baptised or take communion how does it effect you? If "Christ fulfilled the ceremonial requirements for me in his work on the cross" as you define fulfill, then why would Paul tell you to keep them? If you are comparing yourself to the Isrealites, then are you saying anyone who does not get baptised or take communion is damned? That's what you just said regarding them.
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RE: Sabbath - One Stop Thread - 9/21/2008 5:04:58 AM
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Bluethread
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ORIGINAL: mcleod
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As I have said before, except for a few examples and general instruction such as to not do ones ordinary work, Ha Torah does not give us much direction with regard to keeping Shabbat. The ideas of not traveling more than a mile, not flipping a lighty switch, etc. are rabbinic. I personally have no problem with your example, except the rule in my house, not Adonai's rule, is not to exert one self or break a sweat. At such a time we need to slow down or stop.
I would be screwed in your house unless you have air-conditioning. And you can ask my wife if this is true. But I can sweat very easily and not do anything but just sitting.
Ok, when you come over I'll make sure you are comfortable. That is unless discussing Ha Torah bothers you.
< Message edited by Bluethread -- 9/21/2008 5:22:19 AM >
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"Show me wherein I have errored and I will hold my tongue." Iyov(Job)
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RE: Sabbath - One Stop Thread - 9/21/2008 5:07:04 AM
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Bluethread
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ORIGINAL: SpongeBlog
I know there's a lot of 'law' stuff in our recent posts that should be in the law thread. So I will be moving any future discussion concerning general matters of the law over to the law thread and focusing on the Sabbath discussion here from now on.
Good try at getting the last word. I have done my best to keep things in line with the OP and will continue to do so.
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"Show me wherein I have errored and I will hold my tongue." Iyov(Job)
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RE: Sabbath - One Stop Thread - 9/21/2008 5:20:59 AM
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Bluethread
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ORIGINAL: SpongeBlog
I said in an earlier post that I wanted to address some insights concerning the Catholic's view of Sabbath. Well, I don't have a lot of time, but I wonder if you, Bthread, know what 'anathema' means? I'm not testing your knowledge. I didn't know exactly what it meant until I read it in the Catholic document outlawing Saturday Sabbath. I believe the word is used in the KJV in Galatians. It may help you and others understand the motivation and thinking behind the Catholics move away from OT worship law. Which in turn sealed the course of church history from then on (I say sealed because we all know Sunday meetings had been occurring long before the Catholic declaration of 325, or whenever it was).
It means cursed forever.
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It's obvious (to me anyway) they retain the 'resting' requirement of God because it has it's original revelation in creation, before the law. But they reject the specific sabbath day of the week requirement as being part of the law--the part of the law they consider the observance of as being 'anathema' (it says that right in their church law).
Orthodox Jews say the same thing (different word) about following Yeshua.
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What could we expect of a person who (mistakenly?) considered the ceremonial aspects of the law to be anathema? Would it be right for them to violate their conscience if they think something is anathema, like Paul says about circumcision being a means of justification?
What does Yeshua say about one who calls his brother as fool? I can not say where the pope will spend eternity. I can say I believe he is incorrect.
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We've proven beyond a shadow of a doubt amongst ourselves that these matters we discuss are indeed disputable. Now it would be ridiculous to respect and honor someone's conscience to commit murder, or adultery--undisputable matters. But matters of OT worship really are in honest dispute. Conscience is a big part of how we deal with those matters. And that should apply both ways, don't you think? According to Catholic belief, the literal sabbath observance was anathema.
That's interesting, you said before that your position was indisputable. Have you changed your mind? I have yet to stop anyone from going to a Roman Catholic Church.
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I know their conclusions are probably a little misguided, but a little insight might help explain how they arrived at those conclusions and help us see that maybe they're not as conspiratorial (even anti-christ) as some suggest and use as the motivator of their own return to OT worship.
If you are talking about how one interprets Scripture, it might be best to let them speak for themselves. If it is a matter of Roman Catholic doctrine, their traditions mean little to me.
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"Show me wherein I have errored and I will hold my tongue." Iyov(Job)
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RE: Sabbath - One Stop Thread - 9/21/2008 11:17:34 PM
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SpongeBlog
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ORIGINAL: Bluethread
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ORIGINAL: Bluethread
Also, keeping the weekly Shgabbat is one of the least "burdensome" of all of the commandments.
This is a joke. You do not live a realistic life if you think it's easy to just let things go that need to be done when you have the time to do them. Which only confirms to me that you only don't do things on the Sabbath that have no consequence anyway. Your other statements through the months have shown me that and this confirms it. I'm not impressed by that. That's not the obedience of faith that you're saying your literal observance is supposed to express. I've noticed this in your descriptions of what you do and don't do on Sabbath. I can't help but to see that it's really more about the legalism of the day you go to church on and the hours that day comprises for you than anything else. Meaningless legalism in light of New Covenant revelation.
Please, elaberate. Specifically, what are you saying I do that violates the keeping of Shabbat? If you could, also quote the specific Scripture. This might be much more valuable than these constant references to the "burdensome" Shabbat.
The point of the literal Sabbath was to abstain from life supporting activities--important and normally necessary ones. My point is you apparently justify so much activity in the name of 'doing good' that I question whether you actually have ever inconvenienced yourself by abstaining from any truly significant and important work that needed to be done on the Sabbath but that you wouldn't do because it was the Sabbath. And it is for that reason that I can't help but to think that's what gives you the illusion that it's unburdensome. Not cutting the grass is unburdensome in anyone's book. That's not a sacrifice of obedience on par with not lighting a fire, or cooking food, or operating the family business for survival.
I was sharing the overall impression I get from your past posts. Until you actually do something that is first burdensome if not done in regard to your well-being, but which has now become unburdensome because of faith, then I say you cannot say the Sabbath is unburdensome. I'm entitled to form an impression about your Sabbath keeping from what you say. You are free to submit more information to change that impression.
(see law thread for rest of responses)
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"For the kingdom of God is not a matter of eating and drinking, but of righteousness, peace and joy in the Holy Spirit, because anyone who serves Christ in this way is pleasing to God and approved by men." (Romans 14:17,18)
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RE: Sabbath - One Stop Thread - 9/22/2008 12:03:29 AM
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SpongeBlog
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ORIGINAL: Bluethread
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ORIGINAL: SpongeBlog
I said in an earlier post that I wanted to address some insights concerning the Catholic's view of Sabbath...
...If you are talking about how one interprets Scripture, it might be best to let them speak for themselves. If it is a matter of Roman Catholic doctrine, their traditions mean little to me.
I see it was a mistake to think you could get past your indoctrination to discuss this.
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"For the kingdom of God is not a matter of eating and drinking, but of righteousness, peace and joy in the Holy Spirit, because anyone who serves Christ in this way is pleasing to God and approved by men." (Romans 14:17,18)
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RE: Sabbath - One Stop Thread - 9/22/2008 6:16:06 AM
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GodsMusic
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ORIGINAL: mcleod
I would be screwed in your house unless you have air-conditioning. And you can ask my wife if this is true. But I can sweat very easily and not do anything but just sitting.
I know I'm being a little rude here, but have you ever consider you poor grammar on this message board?
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RE: Sabbath - One Stop Thread - 9/22/2008 10:58:28 AM
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Fritzpw_Admin
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ORIGINAL: GodsMusic
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ORIGINAL: mcleod
I would be screwed in your house unless you have air-conditioning. And you can ask my wife if this is true. But I can sweat very easily and not do anything but just sitting.
I know I'm being a little rude here, but have you ever consider you poor grammar on this message board?
I fail to see how that is on topic.
Please don't do this again.
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RE: Sabbath - One Stop Thread - 9/23/2008 7:11:24 PM
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Bluethread
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ORIGINAL: SpongeBlog
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ORIGINAL: Bluethread
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ORIGINAL: SpongeBlog
I said in an earlier post that I wanted to address some insights concerning the Catholic's view of Sabbath...
...If you are talking about how one interprets Scripture, it might be best to let them speak for themselves. If it is a matter of Roman Catholic doctrine, their traditions mean little to me.
I see it was a mistake to think you could get past your indoctrination to discuss this.
It's not matter of my indoctrination, but the futility of discussing the beliefs of those who are not here to defend them for themselves. I am aware of the general Roman Catholic contention that their belief that Yeshua was resurrected on the first day of the week trumps the commandment to keep Shabbat on the seventh day.
I am also aware that one of the historical Roman Catholic accussations against Sola Scriptura is that one can not observe the first day of the week and maintain Sola Scriptura, because it is Roman Catholic doctrine and not a command in the Scripture.
Now, I am not prepared to defend these views since I do not hold them. Also, it would be of little value to have you defend them since any defence you make might misrepresent the position of someone who truly believes them.
< Message edited by Bluethread -- 9/24/2008 3:29:41 AM >
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RE: Sabbath - One Stop Thread - 9/23/2008 7:54:35 PM
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Bluethread
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ORIGINAL: SpongeBlog
The point of the literal Sabbath was to abstain from life supporting activities--important and normally necessary ones. My point is you apparently justify so much activity in the name of 'doing good' that I question whether you actually have ever inconvenienced yourself by abstaining from any truly significant and important work that needed to be done on the Sabbath but that you wouldn't do because it was the Sabbath. And it is for that reason that I can't help but to think that's what gives you the illusion that it's unburdensome. Not cutting the grass is unburdensome in anyone's book. That's not a sacrifice of obedience on par with not lighting a fire, or cooking food, or operating the family business for survival.
I was sharing the overall impression I get from your past posts. Until you actually do something that is first burdensome if not done in regard to your well-being, but which has now become unburdensome because of faith, then I say you cannot say the Sabbath is unburdensome. I'm entitled to form an impression about your Sabbath keeping from what you say. You are free to submit more information to change that impression.
Emphasis Mine
Your first statement is a generalization on your part and I do not believe it is justified by Scripture. Yeshua, Adonai Shabbat(Lord Sabbaoth) tells us that it is not breaking Shabbat to do a Matzvot(good deed) and that it is not breaking Sabbath to eat from the garden hand to mouth. He did not say that these were examples of how Shabbat no longer applied, but explained of how they were not violations of Shabbat.
I asked you for specifics and Scriptural justification and I received an "overall impression" and no reference to the Scripture whatsoever. Well, my impression is that you think I make unfair judgements regarding people's salvation based on their actions and hold others to a standard I don't require of myself. This, even though I have gone so far as to say that Hitler could possibly be in heaven and have stated more than once that keeping the commandments is totally up to ones own disgretion. So, if you are willing let's do an honest examination of the requirements for keeping Shabbat and see how difficult it really is.
< Message edited by Bluethread -- 9/24/2008 3:26:34 AM >
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Also I glad to see you would want to make me comfortable. 