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RE: Sabbath - One Stop Thread - 7/7/2008 11:55:30 PM
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SpongeBlog
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quote:
ORIGINAL: LBolt
Look up "new" in New Covenant. The word is kainos. Post the Strong's definitions you get. Thanks!
Lar, I'll save you the trouble. Here's the link.
Apparently some people are using Vine's effort to explain the usage of 'new' in regard to the 'new' languages heard at Pentacost as justification to understand the 'new' covenant as the old covenant but now being used by those who had not used it before. Even though Jeremiah makes it quite clear (as you've pointed out) that the new covenant is not like the old one:
"The time is coming, declares the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah. It will not be like the covenant I made with their forefathers..." (Hebrews 8:8-9)
There are plenty of Biblical uses of 'new' in context in the link above to help us understand how the new covenant is in fact distinct and different in form and substance from the old covenant.
_____________________________
"For the kingdom of God is not a matter of eating and drinking, but of righteousness, peace and joy in the Holy Spirit, because anyone who serves Christ in this way is pleasing to God and approved by men." (Romans 14:17,18)
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RE: Sabbath - One Stop Thread - 7/8/2008 8:00:28 AM
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LBolt
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Thanks Sponge for the above post. In the Hebrew the word "new" in New Covenant may suggest similiar sentiments as the Greek. A friend of mine e-mailed me an article that I find very interesting. I posted it in the Theo house/ Customs of Jesus thread. It's archeological related.
_____________________________
Wisdom is the principle thing; therefore get wisdom: and with all thy getting get understanding...she shall give to thine head an ornament of grace..---Proverbs 4:7
www.tatepublishing.com/bookstore/book.php?w=978-1-60604-743-9
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RE: Sabbath - One Stop Thread - 7/8/2008 6:00:06 PM
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GrahamCracker
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quote:
Look up "new" in New Covenant. The word is kainos. Post the Strong's definitions you get. Thanks!
Strong's 2537, "kainos...
Of uncertain affinity; (especially in freshness; while 3501 is properly so with respect to age): -new"
I note that it is a synonym, though not a direct one, with 3501, neoteros. Kainos is used 42 times in the NT and invariably translated as "new." But neoteros is not always translated as new, and is used some 24-25 times in the NT. Kainos is used more often than neoteros.
I see nothing significant in the answers I found. If there is some suggestion that my use of it is improper, the Strong's definition doesn't reveal it.
< Message edited by GrahamCracker -- 7/8/2008 7:30:52 PM >
_____________________________
Larry
Sure we're under the law, everybody knows that!
When He said, "A new covenant," He has made the first obsolete. But whatever is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to disappear. (Heb 10:13)
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RE: Sabbath - One Stop Thread - 7/8/2008 6:02:30 PM
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GrahamCracker
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Carico
The Sabbath is not a day of the week, it's Jesus Christ our Lord as Hebrews 4:1-9 explains. The OT is a shadow of the realities that are only found in Jesus Christ as ....
Huh? That's simply wrong. While it is true that it has a greater spiritual reality than simply the day of the week, it is not correct to say that it is not a day of the week.
_____________________________
Larry
Sure we're under the law, everybody knows that!
When He said, "A new covenant," He has made the first obsolete. But whatever is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to disappear. (Heb 10:13)
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RE: Sabbath - One Stop Thread - 7/8/2008 7:35:27 PM
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LBolt
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Here's what I come up with. This is an extension to yours. Kainos-"Kainos denotes (1) "new", of that which is unaccostumed or unused, not "new" in time, recent, but "new" as to form or quality, of different nature from what is contrasted as old. {remember the Old Covenant came on a clay tablet the new on the heart and mind. my parenthetical} (2) The new tongues, 'kainos, of Mk 16:17 are the 'other tongues', heteros, of Acts 2:4. These languages, however, were 'new' and 'different', not in the sense that they had never been heard before, or that they were new to the heareres, for it is plain frrom vs 8 that this was not the case; they were new languauges to the speakers, different from those in which they were accostumed to speak..." - The New Strong's Expanded Exhaustive Concordance of the Bible.
So the "new covenant" is new in the sense of God's covenant being put into the heart... but the content is not new at all. That why Yahshua said a "new" commandment I give to you... love one another... This was always taught!!The Beattitudes was the Torah rightly taught and expounded upon. It dealt with matters of the heart, first and foremost. Which is why the New Covenant is Torah in the heart... We had a heart condition in need of a heart transplant by the Master imself!! HalleluYAH!! It goes deeper than the act itself. Check it in the thought or heart. If you lust after a woman in your heart...your guilty of adultery!! Abba, have mercy on us!! Elohim says in Deut. 5:29, "Oh that there was such a heart in him..." But in Deut. 30:6, He promised to circumcise our heart and out children's heart so that we can love Him that way He desires to be loved. He said if you love me you'll keep my commandments and His commandments are not grievous. Praise Yah! He will not require of us something that's out of reach for us or to hard for us to do. It's only hard when you don't have that heart to do it.
And even when we mess up, the Bible says that if we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us of our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
Graham, this verse in the Bible bothered me...Matthew 7:21-23. How in the world can you prophesy, work miracles...and still hear the words depart from me you work iniquity? To me, this bothered me a lot because it sounds like most Christians. It wasn't until I looked up the word iniquity that I began to understand and then I started examining my own self. That word means "lawlessness" or putting into that day and time..."torahlessness" is what the writer and audience would have understood it to mean. I really believe that it's time for a paradighm shift to take place amongst the Bible of Yahshua and weneed to really reevalute the Scriptures in light of it's Hebraic setting in order to better arrive at truth.
Whereas I don't believe if you don't keep Torah you'll go to Hell, won't be save...I do believe that you'll not be granted access into the New Jerusalem as Rev. 22:14 tells us. There certainly will be strong disappointment!
_____________________________
Wisdom is the principle thing; therefore get wisdom: and with all thy getting get understanding...she shall give to thine head an ornament of grace..---Proverbs 4:7
www.tatepublishing.com/bookstore/book.php?w=978-1-60604-743-9
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RE: Sabbath - One Stop Thread - 7/8/2008 7:44:49 PM
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GrahamCracker
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quote:
ORIGINAL: SpongeBlog
Apparently some people are using Vine's effort to explain the usage of 'new' in regard to the 'new' languages heard at Pentacost as justification to understand the 'new' covenant as the old covenant but now being used by those who had not used it before. Even though Jeremiah makes it quite clear (as you've pointed out) that the new covenant is not like the old one:.....There are plenty of Biblical uses of 'new' in context in the link above to help us understand how the new covenant is in fact distinct and different in form and substance from the old covenant.
Sponge,
If you'd like to elaborate, please do so. I am not familiar with the gist of the argument. Apparently it took place in a thread that I did not read or post on.
_____________________________
Larry
Sure we're under the law, everybody knows that!
When He said, "A new covenant," He has made the first obsolete. But whatever is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to disappear. (Heb 10:13)
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RE: Sabbath - One Stop Thread - 7/8/2008 8:03:15 PM
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GrahamCracker
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quote:
So the "new covenant" is new in the sense of God's covenant being put into the heart... but the content is not new at all.
I think you're going to have to do better than that. Jeremiah and Hebrews both say it would not "be like the old covenant." The difference IS in content. Today, we have no Aaronic priesthood, no Temple of building, no tabernacle, no animal sacrifices, no separation between Jew and Gentile, etc. And there hasn't been any for 2,000 years. If that's not a difference in content, then nothing is.
quote:
Whereas I don't believe if you don't keep Torah you'll go to Hell, won't be save...I do believe that you'll not be granted access into the New Jerusalem as Rev. 22:14 tells us. There certainly will be strong disappointment!
"Cursed is everyone who does not keep on doing everything written in the book of the law." (Gal. 3:10) If we are under the law, any deviation brings a curse. You are positing "half-curses" or some "half-covenant" based upon some weak understanding of what the law "written in our hearts" means.
BTW, you haven't sufficiently demonstrated that what would be written in our hearts is the "old covenant." Grammatically speaking, a "new law" (i.e. new covenant) could just as easily have been what He meant. More so, in fact, because He said it would be not like the old covenant. If it were, in fact, the old covenant simply modified so as to be written on our hearts, it could not be said that it would be unlike the old. It would be just like the old.
Sounds like Seventh Day Adventist to me.
_____________________________
Larry
Sure we're under the law, everybody knows that!
When He said, "A new covenant," He has made the first obsolete. But whatever is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to disappear. (Heb 10:13)
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RE: Sabbath - One Stop Thread - 7/8/2008 8:08:39 PM
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bjay0801
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quote:
"Cursed is everyone who does not keep on doing everything written in the book of the law." (Gal. 3:10) If we are under the law, any deviation brings a curse. You are positing "half-curses" or some "half-covenant" based upon some weak understanding of what the law "written in our hearts" means.
Well lets see, do you honor your mother and father? Do you love your neighbor as yourself? If you have done these 2 small things then I that applies to you as well, my brother. Praise God that Yeshua died so that we would not have to pay the penalty of that curse huh.
_____________________________
O that there were such an heart in them, that they would fear me, and keep all my commandments always, that it might be well with them, and with their children for ever!
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RE: Sabbath - One Stop Thread - 7/8/2008 8:30:20 PM
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LBolt
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The covenant given at Mt. Sinai or Torah is the 10 Commandments.
quote:
we have no Aaronic priesthood, no Temple of building, no tabernacle, no animal sacrifices, no separation between Jew and Gentile,
I agree accept their was no difference between Jew and Gentile in the Torah if that "gentile" desired to sojourn among His people.
But in reference to us keeping Sabbath...we certainly should. Hebrews 4 definitely tells us that there is still a Sabbath for His people and the Sabbath He wants us to keep is from Friday sundown to Saturday sundown.
BTW, I'm not SDA.
Jesus did not teach contrary to Torah...He taught Torah. He taught it to His disciples and they to their disciples... Somewhere falsehoods crept into the ekklesia.
_____________________________
Wisdom is the principle thing; therefore get wisdom: and with all thy getting get understanding...she shall give to thine head an ornament of grace..---Proverbs 4:7
www.tatepublishing.com/bookstore/book.php?w=978-1-60604-743-9
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RE: Sabbath - One Stop Thread - 7/8/2008 9:14:46 PM
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loloidong
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I rest from my labors on sundays. Because the Lord was raised on the first day and because I think that is in keeping with the 4th commandment.
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RE: Sabbath - One Stop Thread - 7/9/2008 3:24:03 AM
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Bluethread
Posts: 1492
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quote:
ORIGINAL: GrahamCracker
BTW, you haven't sufficiently demonstrated that what would be written in our hearts is the "old covenant." Grammatically speaking, a "new law" (i.e. new covenant) could just as easily have been what He meant. More so, in fact, because He said it would be not like the old covenant. If it were, in fact, the old covenant simply modified so as to be written on our hearts, it could not be said that it would be unlike the old. It would be just like the old.
Sounds like Seventh Day Adventist to me.
Emphasis mine.
No it would not. The means are an integral part of any covenant. Just like having the rules of the road ingrained in ones mind is different from the booklet in the glove compartment. One covenant has an exception and means of remedy for cases involving involuntary ignorance. The other does not, because one must conciously ignore the law in order to break it. Though the saying goes, "Ignorance of the law is no excuse.", it is often accepted as a mitigating factor.
Do not waste your time trying to cast aspersions on me or the Seventh Day Adventists by equating our views. I have my views and justifications for those views, and others have their own understanding. If ones reasoned response is not sufficient, attempts at guilt by association only serve to weaken that argument further.
_____________________________
"Show me wherein I have errored and I will hold my tongue." Iyov(Job)
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RE: Sabbath - One Stop Thread - 7/9/2008 3:56:33 AM
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Bluethread
Posts: 1492
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quote:
ORIGINAL: loloidong
I rest from my labors on sundays. Because the Lord was raised on the first day and because I think that is in keeping with the 4th commandment.
No where in the Scriptures are we encouraged to rest on the first day if the week, nor does it record anyone doing so. In fact what did Yeshua(Jesus) do?
Mr 6:2 When the Sabbath came, he began to teach in the synagogue, and many who heard him were amazed.
Lu 4:16 He went to Nazareth, where he had been brought up, and on the Sabbath day he went into the synagogue, as was his custom. And he stood up to read.
Lu 6:6 On another Sabbath he went into the synagogue and was teaching, and a man was there whose right hand was shriveled.
Lu 13:10 On a Sabbath Jesus was teaching in one of the synagogues,
What did the women who came the tomb do?
Lu 23:56 Then they went home and prepared spices and perfumes. But they rested on the Sabbath in obedience to the commandment.
What did Paul do?
Acts 13:14-41
14 From Perga they went on to Pisidian Antioch. On the Sabbath they entered the synagogue and sat down. 15 After the reading from the Law and the Prophets, the synagogue rulers sent word to them, saying, "Brothers, if you have a message of encouragement for the people, please speak." 16 Standing up, Paul motioned with his hand and said: "Men of Israel and you Gentiles who worship God, listen to me!
Ac 14:1At Iconium Paul and Barnabas went as usual into the Jewish synagogue. There they spoke so effectively that a great number of Jews and Gentiles believed.
Ac 17:2 As his custom was, Paul went into the synagogue, and on three Sabbath days he reasoned with them from the Scriptures,
Ac 18:4 Every Sabbath he reasoned in the synagogue, trying to persuade Jews and Greeks.
So You see Yeshua, His disciples, Paul and even gentiles had convocations on Shabbat as Ha Torah requires.
There is a reference to the believers meeting on the first day of the week to break bread, but this is not refered to as Shabbat or a commemoration of any kind. They were just meeting to eat and discuss things with Paul.
Ac 20:7 On the first day of the week we came together to break bread. Paul spoke to the people and, because he intended to leave the next day, kept on talking until midnight.
_____________________________
"Show me wherein I have errored and I will hold my tongue." Iyov(Job)
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RE: Sabbath - One Stop Thread - 7/9/2008 6:43:44 AM
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SpongeBlog
Posts: 976
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quote:
ORIGINAL: GrahamCracker
quote:
ORIGINAL: SpongeBlog
Apparently some people are using Vine's effort to explain the usage of 'new' in regard to the 'new' languages heard at Pentacost as justification to understand the 'new' covenant as the old covenant but now being used by those who had not used it before. Even though Jeremiah makes it quite clear (as you've pointed out) that the new covenant is not like the old one:.....There are plenty of Biblical uses of 'new' in context in the link above to help us understand how the new covenant is in fact distinct and different in form and substance from the old covenant.
Sponge,
If you'd like to elaborate, please do so. I am not familiar with the gist of the argument. Apparently it took place in a thread that I did not read or post on.
In the link I posted there is a link to Vine's Dictionary of New Testament Words. This is part of what it says about the word 'new':
New:
denotes "new," of that which is unaccustomed or unused, not "new" in time, recent, but "new" as to form or quality, of different nature from what is contrasted as old. "'The new tongues,' kainos, of Mar 16:17 are the 'other tongues,' heteros, of Act 2:4. These languages, however, were 'new' and 'different,' not in the sense that they had never been heard before, or that they were new to the hearers, for it is plain from Act 2:8 that this is not the case; they were new languages to the speakers, different from those in which they were accustomed to speak.
I'm sure Vine's is a very useful and accurate resource, but in their attempt to bring understanding to one matter of the Bible, they've given occasion for some people to create confusion in another.
_____________________________
"For the kingdom of God is not a matter of eating and drinking, but of righteousness, peace and joy in the Holy Spirit, because anyone who serves Christ in this way is pleasing to God and approved by men." (Romans 14:17,18)
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RE: Sabbath - One Stop Thread - 7/9/2008 6:46:07 AM
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GrahamCracker
Posts: 1828
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quote:
ORIGINAL bj0801 said: Well lets see, do you honor your mother and father? Do you love your neighbor as yourself? If you have done these 2 small things then I that applies to you as well, my brother. Praise God that Yeshua died so that we would not have to pay the penalty of that curse huh.
I'm not sure what your point is unless Paul's quote from the OT is supposed to prove that we are still under the Mosaic Covenant and the it's still in effect. That simply is insufficient, if it is your point.
We are under the New Covenant. It contains some of the terms the Old Covenant did, like the command to honor our parents. That doesn't mean the Old Covenant is still in effect. It can be likened to a contractual agreement between two parties, like a labor contract. Labor and management sign a new one and it makes the old one obsolete, with some sort of expiration date. But guess what? Often, such a labor contract contains some of the same provisions that the old one did.
quote:
Praise God that Yeshua died so that we would not have to pay the penalty of that curse huh.
You wouldn't stone me, would you? Or, maybe you would if you could? The very fact that I am not put to death for working on the Sabbath should demonstrate that no one keeps the law. You don't enforce it by making sure the likes of me gets stoned, even as I don't obey it by working on Saturday.
That brings us to some in-between state that scripture doesn't support. Now, keep in mind that it's OK with me if you refrain from working on Saturday. But your feeling of obligation does not extend to me. Paul says that I do not have to keep special days like the Sabbath. And you and LBolt are commanded from judging me on account of it.
Romans 14, NASB
4 Who are you to judge the servant of another? To his own master he stands or falls; and he will stand, for the Lord is able to make him stand.
5 One person regards one day above another, another regards every day alike Each person must be fully convinced in his own mind.
< Message edited by GrahamCracker -- 7/9/2008 7:38:31 AM >
_____________________________
Larry
Sure we're under the law, everybody knows that!
When He said, "A new covenant," He has made the first obsolete. But whatever is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to disappear. (Heb 10:13)
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RE: Sabbath - One Stop Thread - 7/9/2008 7:05:41 AM
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GrahamCracker
Posts: 1828
Joined: 4/11/2005
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quote:
Blue thread said
Emphasis mine.
No it would not. The means are an integral part of any covenant. Just like having the rules of the road ingrained in ones mind is different from the booklet in the glove compartment. One covenant has an exception and means of remedy for cases involving involuntary ignorance. The other does not, because one must conciously ignore the law in order to break it. Though the saying goes, "Ignorance of the law is no excuse.", it is often accepted as a mitigating factor.
I'm sorry. You wrote a lot of words that don't make much of a point. Frankly, it looks like fancy words that arrive back to the conclusion that we are still under the law. If we were still under that law, we would still be offering sacrifices to the Levitical priests, circumcising our male infants, and keeping the feast days by going to Jerusalem every year. No doubt, you would reply that Jesus fulfilled all of those. But doesn't that interpretation point to some half-way covenant? If not, why aren't you still doing all of those things?
Jeremiah has already said that God would make a New Covenant. Hebrews says the Old one would be obsolete. That's pretty clear.
If you will look carefully at the New Testament, you will see what the commands of the New Covenant are. There is no command to keep the Sabbath.
quote:
Do not waste your time trying to cast aspersions on me or the Seventh Day Adventists by equating our views.
Huh? No aspersion was cast. Sounds like you're getting a little testy when I compared the Seventh Day Sabbath keepers with Seventh Day Adventists. Well, get used to it. When you advance similar arguments, you are going to be compared with them. You happen to share some views with them. No reason to get defensive.
< Message edited by GrahamCracker -- 7/9/2008 7:22:33 AM >
_____________________________
Larry
Sure we're under the law, everybody knows that!
When He said, "A new covenant," He has made the first obsolete. But whatever is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to disappear. (Heb 10:13)
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RE: Sabbath - One Stop Thread - 7/10/2008 3:35:57 PM
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loloidong
Posts: 60
Joined: 7/8/2008
From: Seattle, WA
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Bluethread
quote:
ORIGINAL: loloidong
I rest from my labors on sundays. Because the Lord was raised on the first day and because I think that is in keeping with the 4th commandment.
No where in the Scriptures are we encouraged to rest on the first day if the week, nor does it record anyone doing so. In fact what did Yeshua(Jesus) do?
Mr 6:2 When the Sabbath came, he began to teach in the synagogue, and many who heard him were amazed.
Lu 4:16 He went to Nazareth, where he had been brought up, and on the Sabbath day he went into the synagogue, as was his custom. And he stood up to read.
Lu 6:6 On another Sabbath he went into the synagogue and was teaching, and a man was there whose right hand was shriveled.
Lu 13:10 On a Sabbath Jesus was teaching in one of the synagogues,
What did the women who came the tomb do?
Lu 23:56 Then they went home and prepared spices and perfumes. But they rested on the Sabbath in obedience to the commandment.
What did Paul do?
Acts 13:14-41
14 From Perga they went on to Pisidian Antioch. On the Sabbath they entered the synagogue and sat down. 15 After the reading from the Law and the Prophets, the synagogue rulers sent word to them, saying, "Brothers, if you have a message of encouragement for the people, please speak." 16 Standing up, Paul motioned with his hand and said: "Men of Israel and you Gentiles who worship God, listen to me!
Ac 14:1At Iconium Paul and Barnabas went as usual into the Jewish synagogue. There they spoke so effectively that a great number of Jews and Gentiles believed.
Ac 17:2 As his custom was, Paul went into the synagogue, and on three Sabbath days he reasoned with them from the Scriptures,
Ac 18:4 Every Sabbath he reasoned in the synagogue, trying to persuade Jews and Greeks.
So You see Yeshua, His disciples, Paul and even gentiles had convocations on Shabbat as Ha Torah requires.
There is a reference to the believers meeting on the first day of the week to break bread, but this is not refered to as Shabbat or a commemoration of any kind. They were just meeting to eat and discuss things with Paul.
Ac 20:7 On the first day of the week we came together to break bread. Paul spoke to the people and, because he intended to leave the next day, kept on talking until midnight.
Well, other than I love doing it I also see it the bible.
This is a short explanation but I hope it gets the point across. But knowing how ingrained your opposition to it I do not expect you to understand it that easy.
To begin my arguments please allow me to discuss the nature of the law of God. I wish to not turn this to the “Law Thread” but I believe it is a necessary route to go through to get my point across. This should only be brief.
I’ll start with what I call different types of laws in the OT. The ceremonial laws, which pertain to religious things; the judicial laws, which pertains to the peace and order of the nation; and the moral law, which somehow is the over-riding principles of all the laws.
The Ceremonial laws are physical representations of the coming of Jesus. They are the types or for shadowing of Christ. As Christ came, so they went away. No more temple, sacrifices etc. But the law is the law and it remains forever. However, it does not mean that we ought to go back to the old ways. No. The law continued spiritually. We have one sacrifice for all. We have a High Priest. We are a Royal Priesthood. Jesus is the Passover Lamb that we commemorate with the Lord Supper. The Tabernacle is in the Lord. Dietary laws are still in effect where the Lord now allows all things he called clean to be included in our diet. This is so because there is a shift from one nation to a host of believers all over the world.
The Judicial laws, well, we are enjoined to obey our governments because the Lord had instituted them as His ministers. Still there are laws to be followed judicial wise. They may not be the same set of laws, but for peaceful existence the Lord requires believers to be obedient.
Then the moral law. The 10C. We treat Sabbath as if it is a religious law. Having One God is a religious law if you would come to think of it, so is it already repealed? No. Because Sabbath is not just a religious law but a law of work and rest. We are commanded to obey our parents, do not commit adultery, do not covet, do not steal. We are also commanded to work and rest.
Resting is a commandment, believe it or not. Without resting you are not going to continue to work much longer. Body is tired all the time your mind follows. Soon you will find out that you have drifted away from God by working too much. Too much rest, too is bad for your well being. The Lord wants us to be busy. The balance of which is stated in this commandment.
Nothing hyper religious about working and not working. It is about the pursuit of your vocations and the required stated rest for your body. The Lord’s rest is forever etched in history. He made us to work and to get tired as well. He made our bodies to required rest. You violate this you not only violate the law of God you violate the law of your body.
Why do I believe on a Sunday Sabbath. Well following the patterns of the apostles. It is when they were breaking away from the traditional Sabbath that they started gathering on the first day of the week. They worshipped together, rest from their work and do many beneficial things the community.
It was also on the first day that the Lord was raised. John even called it the day of the Lord (Revelation). That is the Lord completed his work and was resurrected. The Lord rested from His labor of saving the world.
The Sabbath is an eternal sign of the Lord’s covenant. Israel was to put aside a day of rest as a sign of their love for God. And it continues as a sign for believers to set aside one day out of the week for rest from labor as a covenant to their Lord.
BTW, even the early Christian fathers believe in the first day rest.
But there are those who can explain it better than I do. So I leave it up to them in their pages.
http://www.biblehistory.com/The%20Origin%20of%20Sunday%20Worship.html
http://www.wcg.org/lit/law/sabbath/hanson.htm
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RE: Sabbath - One Stop Thread - 7/10/2008 4:13:07 PM
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GrahamCracker
Posts: 1828
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quote:
ORIGINAL: loloidong
Why do I believe on a Sunday Sabbath. Well following the patterns of the apostles. It is when they were breaking away from the traditional Sabbath that they started gathering on the first day of the week. They worshipped together, rest from their work and do many beneficial things the community.
It was also on the first day that the Lord was raised. John even called it the day of the Lord (Revelation). That is the Lord completed his work and was resurrected. The Lord rested from His labor of saving the world.
The Sabbath is an eternal sign of the Lord’s covenant. Israel was to put aside a day of rest as a sign of their love for God. And it continues as a sign for believers to set aside one day out of the week for rest from labor as a covenant to their Lord.
You realize, of course, that there is no command in the NT to set aside Saturday as the Sabbath; OR Sunday as a day of sabbath or a rest day. For that you have to go either to the OT or to church historical practice or tradition. NT habit or custom is not the same thing as a command or an obligation. Essentially, there is no command in the New Covenant to set aside a particular of any kind, Saturday or Sunday.
The Bible also tells us that Paul had Timothy circumcised (Acts 16:3), but the reason for doing so was not of command or biblical obligation. So the practice of something in and of itself does make it a biblical command.
_____________________________
Larry
Sure we're under the law, everybody knows that!
When He said, "A new covenant," He has made the first obsolete. But whatever is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to disappear. (Heb 10:13)
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RE: Sabbath - One Stop Thread - 7/10/2008 5:34:06 PM
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loloidong
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Did I just say it is just the practice? Well the command is found in the 4th commandment sandwiched between the 3rd and 5th. Besides my post did not just discuss the agreement of the early fathers about sunday rests and worship.
What also is important to note is that the commandment does not only contain one thing. It is a resting for many, including your servants. You must rest your servants too, that is what the Lord is saying. Giving others a chance to rest is a must in the eyes of God. It is not only for you who hears the commandment but for those who are under your care. Don't you think the Lord cared enough to ask us to rest?
"six days you shall labor and do thy work..." the half of the commandment that is being ignored also. If resting is not anymore commanded, surely labor is not anymore commanded. One does not go without the other.
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RE: Sabbath - One Stop Thread - 7/10/2008 6:28:59 PM
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LBolt
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If I may add something, Sabbath is a day in which we are to convocate according to Leviticus and we see the disciples continuing in this practice. The Lord's day in Revelation, how do you know it is Sunday?
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Wisdom is the principle thing; therefore get wisdom: and with all thy getting get understanding...she shall give to thine head an ornament of grace..---Proverbs 4:7
www.tatepublishing.com/bookstore/book.php?w=978-1-60604-743-9
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RE: Sabbath - One Stop Thread - 7/11/2008 7:13:22 AM
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GrahamCracker
Posts: 1828
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From: Dallas, TX
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quote:
ORIGINAL: loloidong
Did I just say it is just the practice? Well the command is found in the 4th commandment sandwiched between the 3rd and 5th.
The Ten Commandments are part of the Old Covenant. The righteousness of the Old Covenant was fulfilled on our behalf by Christ. I don't observe the Old Covenant.
quote:
Besides my post did not just discuss the agreement of the early fathers about sunday rests and worship.
If our practice comes from the tradition of the church fathers, then we are no better than the Scribes and the Pharisees who changed the commandments of scripture based upon the traditions of THEIR fathers.
If your practice comes from the 4th commandment, why don't you observe it as the Saturday Sabbath? If you conclude that the Sabbath became Sunday at some point, what NT biblical citation explicitly states that? I know of none, not a single one. I neither follow the Old Covenant nor do I observe something as a command simply because church fathers did so.
quote:
What also is important to note is that the commandment does not only contain one thing. It is a resting for many, including your servants. You must rest your servants too, that is what the Lord is saying. Giving others a chance to rest is a must in the eyes of God. It is not only for you who hears the commandment but for those who are under your care. Don't you think the Lord cared enough to ask us to rest?
"six days you shall labor and do thy work..." the half of the commandment that is being ignored also. If resting is not anymore commanded, surely labor is not anymore commanded. One does not go without the other.
Labor IS COMMANDED in either 1 Thess or 2 Thess. Then general principle that work is obligatory is found in the New Covenant. What is not found is the obligation that any particular day must be chosen.
What is actually stated is that each one of us may be convinced of it in our own minds but to never judge one another with regard to observing days. Romans 14, I believe it is.
< Message edited by GrahamCracker -- 7/11/2008 8:08:49 AM >
_____________________________
Larry
Sure we're under the law, everybody knows that!
When He said, "A new covenant," He has made the first obsolete. But whatever is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to disappear. (Heb 10:13)
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RE: Sabbath - One Stop Thread - 7/11/2008 7:24:40 AM
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GrahamCracker
Posts: 1828
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: Dallas, TX
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quote:
ORIGINAL: LBolt
If I may add something, Sabbath is a day in which we are to convocate according to Leviticus and we see the disciples continuing in this practice.
If your question is to me, I think you know what my response is. If your question is to loloidong, I'd like to see his answer too.
quote:
The Lord's day in Revelation, how do you know it is Sunday?
All of the references to it I know of occur in extra-biblical literature, some of which is as early as the 2nd century (which apparently cite it as a long standing practice). The reference is not explicitly made to either Saturday or Sunday. I suppose we could regard it as a recognizable phrase or idiom of some sort. In that sense we need not consider the term in a vacuum, void of any context whatsoever, cultural or explictly biblical.
In any event, whatever the practice there is no biblical command or reference to observe "The Lord's Day" as an exclusive day of refraining from work or as a day or worship anywhere in the NT either.
< Message edited by GrahamCracker -- 7/11/2008 8:12:14 AM >
_____________________________
Larry
Sure we're under the law, everybody knows that!
When He said, "A new covenant," He has made the first obsolete. But whatever is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to disappear. (Heb 10:13)
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RE: Sabbath - One Stop Thread - 7/11/2008 8:53:20 AM
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LBolt
Posts: 954
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The LORD's Day is the Sabbath day. You don't follow the Scriptures which say Sabbath is the 7th day because it is "Old Covenant" and you don't follow "the traditions of man"...what do you do? What Biblical standard do you have to substanciate you practice? This is a serious question. You seem to talk out of both sides of your mouth, IMO. You make good points then you sort of lose me. The previous post of mine was for Loloding, BTW.
Romans 14 was dealing strictly with foods and fast days that's not the Sabbath.
_____________________________
Wisdom is the principle thing; therefore get wisdom: and with all thy getting get understanding...she shall give to thine head an ornament of grace..---Proverbs 4:7
www.tatepublishing.com/bookstore/book.php?w=978-1-60604-743-9
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RE: Sabbath - One Stop Thread - 7/11/2008 1:46:06 PM
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GrahamCracker
Posts: 1828
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: Dallas, TX
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quote:
The LORD's Day is the Sabbath day. I seriously doubt it. If anything, "The Lord's Day" and "The Day of the Lord" are probably grammatically identical terms in the Greek. Given that is the context of John's Revelation, it would be an interesting possibility to chase down. I haven't done that yet, so I hesitate to take a position on it. In any event, "The Lord's Day/Day of the Lord" are not expressly designated as the Sabbath, day of rest, or obligatory day in which we are to partake the Lord's supper--that I am aware of.
quote:
You don't follow the Scriptures which say Sabbath is the 7th day because it is "Old Covenant" and you don't follow "the traditions of man"...what do you do? What Biblical standard do you have to substanciate you practice? This is a serious question. You seem to talk out of both sides of your mouth, IMO. You make good points then you sort of lose me. The previous post of mine was for Loloding, BTW.
Generally, one's hermeneutic often underlies one's view of scripture. If we start with a certain system, then we almost invariably wind up with a conclusion that follows those principles we begin with at the outset.
In short, the New Covenant is contained in the set of writings we call the New Testament. Imagine that! Isn't that a novel concept? Let me say as well that narratives do not constitute commandments. If they did, we would have a hopeless set of commandments, many of them contradicting one another. One group/denomination takes set of examples and another group takes another set of examples, and they argue over which one takes precedence. Take for example, the problems of water baptism and the baptism of the HS. Surely you have seen the problems which stem from those. Largely, they are issues of how to interpret the narratives in Acts and the gospels.
I do take principles and meanings from narratives and so forth, but I do so cautiously. I'll not say my interpretations are foolproof. I try to make them as consistent as I can. They are not made up as I go along. There are, of course, flaws.
quote:
Romans 14 was dealing strictly with foods and fast days that's not the Sabbath.
It certainly did not! How do I know? Look at the context at the begining of the chapter. For example, look at verse 2. One person has faith that he may eat all things, but he who is weak eats vegetables only. (NASB) The only context I know of where there was a controversy between eating everything and vegetables (KJV: herbs) is a Gentile one. Eating meat was sometimes seen as compromising one's faith because sometimes it had been offered to idols.
I have to ask: What Jewish feast and fast day obligated one to eat only vegetables? I can only interpret the passage in a much broader context than a strictly Jewish one. How do you get from a Gentile context to a strictly Jewish one without using built in presuppositions, none of which are obligated by the text? You presume a foundational context in Paul's writing and then end with it. I call that circular reasoning.
For that matter, why did you want to interpret "Sabbaths" as the weekly Sabbath in Matt. 28:1 but now you want to interpret it as Jewish holidays in Romans 14? The only reason I can think of is that anything else undercuts your Sabbatarian mindset.
Verse 5 One person regards one day above another, another regards every day alike Each person must be fully convinced in his own mind. There is certainly a Jewish context for this one. But if we can casually dismiss regarding one holy day because of our conscience, how perpetual was it to begin with? How do we pick out which day we are obligated to keep and which day we are not obligated to keep? Because our conscience bugs us? That doesn't sound like an obligation from God, but an obligation from either man or one's own context.
Jews were accustomed to keeping feasts, Sabbaths and so forth. Even when released from it, life long habit remains. It doesn't hurt to refrain from work on the Sabbath and to attend worship. There are certainly some benefits. Paul was giving them permission to continue, just so long as they didn't judge others. Heck, Jews and Gentiles still probably had numerous difficulties, much like Peter displayed in Galatians 2:11-14.
Rom 14:14
I know and am convinced in the Lord Jesus that nothing is unclean in itself; but to him who thinks anything to be unclean, to him it is unclean.
Doesn't that include pork? Does that include bread baked with yeast? If the context is exclusively a Jewish one, what do we do with the apparent contradiction here with regard to the Jewish dietary obligations? If you accept a strict contextual interpretation, as you apparently do, you are left with some glaring inconsistencies. Anyway, that's the way I see it.
What I conclude is that Paul is setting forth general principle that Sabbaths, foods, and so forth must not be used as a means of judging another brother in Christ. We are released from the obligation of the Law to one of conscience on those things. He never says: "Obey some Sabbaths (Saturdays) but ignore other Sabbaths (Jewish holidays)." You still wind up splitting the Torah into segm | | |
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