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RE: Sabbath - One Stop Thread - 3/18/2008 2:17:46 PM
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bjay0801
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Hitler when asked why he was commiting so many atrocoties said he was doing exactly what Martin Luther said. Unfortunatley, when the Jews did not convert to Martin Luthor's brand of Christianity, his message against them became hateful. That was the message that Hitler took hold of and did hid thing. And if Jesus did break the sabbath then He would not have been the messiah. Read what the messiah was supposed to do. And also Mcleod, look in the scriptures for the times that others gleaned from the edge of the fields for food (ie. Ruth). They were not working, they were far from home and needed to eat. And by the way, I do not eat pork or shrimp either.  I literaly keep the sabbath because it's in my heart to do so; if I do not have love for my fellow man then all the sabath keeping or any thing else means nothing any way. Every instruction and direction starts with the condition of our hearts first. If I treat Christianity like a job then I'm already done for. If we have the spirit of God within us then His spirit will guide us to things of Him. I literaly pray. I literaly try not to be covetous. I literaly honor my parents. Look at the world around us today. I see a lot of young people who can't even spell honor. We have become a society of get rich or die trying attitudes with no fear of God. I know the majority of us who post here are just trying to do our best to do what is pleasing in God's sight. Let's not nit pick at each other or even condemn each other (which we don't have a right to do anyway) but for those who come and look at these posts, let us be examples; let's have healthy discussion without getting frustrated to the point where we start pointing fingers. And let's continue to study this word and reason together in brotherly love.
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O that there were such an heart in them, that they would fear me, and keep all my commandments always, that it might be well with them, and with their children for ever!
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RE: Sabbath - One Stop Thread - 3/19/2008 5:23:27 PM
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LoveYourEnemies
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As I mentioned the other day, being new here, it is impossible to read 2726 postings in this very long thread. I have found it very amusing to read the number of pages I have read, and I also find it interesting how people reason that obedience is not required because of the spirit of the law...when in reality the spirit of the law is a much tougher standard than the letter of the law, which was pointed out by Jesus. But that is just my amusement factor, not condemning anyone. Like everyone else, I believe what I believe...but I am searching for answers to the many questions that present themselves in discussions of this nature.
I think we can sort things out a whole by going back to the very basics of the discussion of the law...Are the 10 Commandments still alive and in existence/in force? Or have they been done away with and we no longer have to abide by them? Be careful how you answer this question, and realize exactly what you may be saying when you answer this question, regardless of which side of this equation you are on.
Can we keep this simple everyone? Just a quick answer with the very briefest of explanations as to why you feel this way. Otherwise this thread will continue to go in circles as it has for over 2700 postings. Let's iron out the foundation upon which the wall can be built.
I'll throw an example as to the kind of answers I am looking for, and add a few Scripture verses if you desire:
*Yes, I believe the 10 Commandments are in force as I don't think they have been changed or abrogated.
*No, I believe the 10 Commandments ceased to exist at the cross as all law was nailed and ceased to exist.
*No, I believe the 10 Commandments are no longer in force. They were nailed to the cross and after the cross, some laws were reinstated.
These are just a few examples of the kinds of beliefs I have witnessed over the years. Please...let us know where you stand. My thanks in advance. Maybe we can move forward in baby steps instead of walking in circles around the fire. Let's seek the truth together...we can't all be right if we are in opposition to one another. Truth is more important than proving the other person is wrong, when that may not actually be the case. If 10 people believe the same thing and are in error, it will appear that the 1 person who is correct is the one who is wrong. Strength of numbers does not prove truth. Shovels out and let's start digging...the truth lies in here somewhere, let's find it. My theory...If I'm wrong, I certainly want to know it.
I'll start...
I think the 10 Commandments are still in force. I do not think they have been abrogated, nor can they be changed.
Psa 19:7 The law of the LORD is perfect, converting the soul: the testimony of the LORD is sure, making wise the simple.
Ecc 12:13 Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this is the whole duty of man.
Mal 3:6 For I am the LORD, I change not
John 14:15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.
Rev 12:17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.
Rev 14:12 Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.
Rev 22:14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.
I would love to see a handful of verses from those who believe differently. Let's dig.
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RE: Sabbath - One Stop Thread - 3/19/2008 6:03:35 PM
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mcleod
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For one thing I have never made out that someone was a idiol worshipper. two bjay0801quote:
Is this the fruit of the Spirit? Where is it written that we cannot eat on the Sabbath? noone is worshipping the 4th commandment, we justt try to keep it. That's all. Either it is the word of God or not. Either the the Spirit of the Lord helps us walk like Him or not. noone that I no of is sitting down counting out which commandment they have kept that day. That would be ridiculous. Noone is trying to work for salvation; if that's the case, then we are condemned already. Now we do "works" because we are saved, as James said, show me your salvation with out your works and I'll show you my salvation by my works. I go to church on the sabbath because it's in the bible, not because I'm trying to be saved. Do you pray? That's a work. You go to church. That is also a work. Do you honor your parents? That's a work. Are doing those things to be saved? I don't think you are. You do them because you love the Lord. I love the Lord therefore I do my best to honor Him.
You go on ahead and write this foolishness and try to twist my words around. Praying is not physical work. So next time get what the law says right."remember the Sabbath day by keeping it holy. Six days you shall labor (physical) and do all of your work,(physical) but the seventh day is a Sabbath(rest) to the Lord your God. On it you shall not do any work,(physical)neither you nor your son or daughter, nor your manservant or maidservant, nor your animals, nor the alien within your gates".
You go and try to keep it. You'll find that it's nearly impossibile to keep it. That is why when the disciples ask Christ who could be saved. He answered them with God all things are possible. I know that I just took that verse out of context but the meaning still works here.
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RE: Sabbath - One Stop Thread - 3/20/2008 12:01:21 AM
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LoveYourEnemies
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I have to ask Mcleod...why do you find its nearly impossible to keep the Sabbath. There are lots of people who do it. It's merely a decision you have to make, just like a lot of people do for Sunday.
I had no idea about the Sabbath issue for many years. When I learned, I just switched my schedule around. I kept Saturday instead of just a small part of Sunday...which is what most Sunday keepers do btw.
I learned something very interesting in all of that too...I worked 7 days a week when I learned about the Sabbath. I rode to a Church event with two women (1 hour drive) and on the way they told me that if I work 6 days and rest on the 7th, I can get more done in the 6 days because I won't be so tired with a days rest to go on. They convinced me to try it. How shocked I was to learn that they were right. I used to drag through every day because I stayed tired working so much. It's amazing how much that one day of rest can mean to a person. I got more done in 6 with rest than in 7 without.
Here's a story I heard that I found most interesting...
Back when this country was being settled, a large group of people decided to move out to the west. So off they went. When Saturday rolled around, some of the group wanted to keep going, some wanted to keep the Sabbath. The large group divided into two groups.
One group went 7 days a week all the way to the west. The other group rested 1 day a week. The group that kept the Sabbath got across the country before the group that didn't. And the group that didn't rest drove their animals into the ground and lost a lot of their animals. The group that kept the Sabbath didn't lose any.
There is a blessing to those who take the time to enjoy the day God set aside for them. For some reason, a lot of people accuse Sabbath keepers of "works" for keeping the Sabbath, yet they are those who are working, while the Sabbath keepers enjoy the day God set aside for them. Those who rest are accused of "works" while those who work won't rest. Hmmm...I was told that there would be a day when right would be wrong and wrong would be right. I guess it's here. I always wonder why people don't want the blessing that comes with a days rest and spending it with God.
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RE: Sabbath - One Stop Thread - 3/20/2008 12:10:52 AM
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LoveYourEnemies
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quote:
ORIGINAL: mcleod
For one thing I have never made out that someone was a idiol worshipper. two bjay0801quote:
Is this the fruit of the Spirit? Where is it written that we cannot eat on the Sabbath? noone is worshipping the 4th commandment, we justt try to keep it. That's all. Either it is the word of God or not. Either the the Spirit of the Lord helps us walk like Him or not. noone that I no of is sitting down counting out which commandment they have kept that day. That would be ridiculous. Noone is trying to work for salvation; if that's the case, then we are condemned already. Now we do "works" because we are saved, as James said, show me your salvation with out your works and I'll show you my salvation by my works. I go to church on the sabbath because it's in the bible, not because I'm trying to be saved. Do you pray? That's a work. You go to church. That is also a work. Do you honor your parents? That's a work. Are doing those things to be saved? I don't think you are. You do them because you love the Lord. I love the Lord therefore I do my best to honor Him.
You go on ahead and write this foolishness and try to twist my words around. Praying is not physical work. So next time get what the law says right."remember the Sabbath day by keeping it holy. Six days you shall labor (physical) and do all of your work,(physical) but the seventh day is a Sabbath(rest) to the Lord your God. On it you shall not do any work,(physical)neither you nor your son or daughter, nor your manservant or maidservant, nor your animals, nor the alien within your gates".
You go and try to keep it. You'll find that it's nearly impossibile to keep it. That is why when the disciples ask Christ who could be saved. He answered them with God all things are possible. I know that I just took that verse out of context but the meaning still works here.
You really missed what he meant by the use of the word "works." That read to a major error in interpretation on your part. He wasn't referring to physical work, but rather "works" in reference to "you aren't saved by your works, but your works are the evidence of your salvation."
The person who lives in sin shows who he serves by his actions (works). While the Christian shows who he serves by his actions (works). The
Christian doesn't go around living a sinful disobedient life by choice. If God says something, he cheerfully lives in obedience. Jesus made many statements in reference to if we love him we will keep his commandments, and if we say we love him and keep not the commandments we are liars. This all refers to our "works."
I'm surprised you missed that.
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RE: Sabbath - One Stop Thread - 3/20/2008 10:29:23 AM
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LBolt
Posts: 954
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LoveYourEnemies, again welcome to the Crosswalk forums. In regards to post # 2727 it probably would be better answered in the one stop "Law" thread.
I agree with your statement, "I think the 10 Commandments are still in force. I do not think they have been abrogated, nor can they be changed."
Psa. 119:89-91
Psa. 119 all of it
Gen. 26:5
I John 2:3-4
I John 3:22
I John 5:2
2 John 1:6
_____________________________
Wisdom is the principle thing; therefore get wisdom: and with all thy getting get understanding...she shall give to thine head an ornament of grace..---Proverbs 4:7
www.tatepublishing.com/bookstore/book.php?w=978-1-60604-743-9
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RE: Sabbath - One Stop Thread - 3/20/2008 11:42:20 AM
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sudzer
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LBolt been thinking of you alot and holding you up in prayer, Our Lord has you upon my heart, May He Bless and Keep you and may He turn His ear to my prayer for you. Those of us who the LOrd has showen this mighty work of telling his truths will be a hard thing, but nothing is impossible with our God. May we all have ears to hear and eyes that see what the Spirit says to the churches, and when King Jesus returns may he not find us luke warm and wanting. Blessings Sudzer
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RE: Sabbath - One Stop Thread - 3/20/2008 11:57:32 AM
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sudzer
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Love, I believe that the 10 commandments are God's commandments. LOL short enought for you. I think that your suggestion for us to dig and then discuss is a wonderfull idea. May the Holy Spirit teach us all. Blessing Sudzer
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RE: Sabbath - One Stop Thread - 3/20/2008 1:48:34 PM
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mcleod
Posts: 1071
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LoveYourEnemies,
quote:
I have to ask Mcleod...why do you find its nearly impossible to keep the Sabbath. There are lots of people who do it. It's merely a decision you have to make, just like a lot of people do for Sunday.
As the law is written and it is nearly impossible to keep it. Now that has been written let us look at what you will do on that day and may I say you can't help but do something physical on that day. If you happen to go over to your kids house on that day and a meal is prepared for you. Then you have now according to that law are subject to breaking it.
Now before you go and crucify me or put me through the wringer. I believe that there is a Sabbath of rest and it is once you have allowed the Spirit of God to work through you then you receive it. Just as the children of Israel were at the entrance of the promise land and fail by not trusting in what God told them to do. They could not enter his rest.
For you who want to do a day and rest it. Thats fine with me I have no problem with that. But because I have different idea that Christ is our Sabbath. Then I do not need to be look down as a heretic. As some of you claim. And not you LBolt have done that yet.
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RE: Sabbath - One Stop Thread - 3/20/2008 2:36:41 PM
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bjay0801
Posts: 144
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Noone is looking down on you as a heretic. As I said before, I'm pretty sure that the majority of us who have posts do love God. And as I said before, the scriptures support the sabbath and I again say that I keep the sabbath as the bible says not only as a day of rest, but also the bible says to convocate yourselves together on the sabbath. So thats what I and those who also support keeping the sabbath do. I do not point fingers at anyone. I have gone to church on sunday after sunday for years.I now have it in my heart to keep the sabbath because it is in the bible. That's all. As with any of God's directions and instructions, it has to be within your heart as Jesus starts teaching in Matthew 5:21. He teaches the commandments and all of them deal with what is in the heart first.
_____________________________
O that there were such an heart in them, that they would fear me, and keep all my commandments always, that it might be well with them, and with their children for ever!
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RE: Sabbath - One Stop Thread - 3/20/2008 2:37:34 PM
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LoveYourEnemies
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quote:
ORIGINAL: mcleod
LoveYourEnemies,
quote:
I have to ask Mcleod...why do you find its nearly impossible to keep the Sabbath. There are lots of people who do it. It's merely a decision you have to make, just like a lot of people do for Sunday.
As the law is written and it is nearly impossible to keep it. Now that has been written let us look at what you will do on that day and may I say you can't help but do something physical on that day. If you happen to go over to your kids house on that day and a meal is prepared for you. Then you have now according to that law are subject to breaking it.
Now before you go and crucify me or put me through the wringer. I believe that there is a Sabbath of rest and it is once you have allowed the Spirit of God to work through you then you receive it. Just as the children of Israel were at the entrance of the promise land and fail by not trusting in what God told them to do. They could not enter his rest.
For you who want to do a day and rest it. Thats fine with me I have no problem with that. But because I have different idea that Christ is our Sabbath. Then I do not need to be look down as a heretic. As some of you claim. And not you LBolt have done that yet.
Correct me if I am reading this wrong, but in the first paragraph, you mention that "you can't help but do something physical on that day." As I read this paragraph, I couldn't help but think about the rules and regs the Jews put on the Sabbath, making the Sabbath a burden. They accused Jesus of breaking the Sabbath...because...HE didn't follow their rules. I've seen many Christians follow in the beliefs of those Jewish leaders by saying that "Jesus broke the Sabbath."
Ooops, they missed something. If Jesus broke the Sabbath, He sinned, and no longer would have been qualified to be our Savior.
The Jews were upset that His disciples got grain while walking through the field, and accused them of breaking the Sabbath. Again, Jewish rules, not God's rules. Jesus walked to many places on the Sabbath. As He said, is it good to do good on the Sabbath? Yes it is. It is also a day to rest from our labors, not a day to just lay on the couch. We are to gather for worship, spend time with the Lord, with our families, fellowship with other believers, witness the love of God to others, etc.
Your comment just reminded me of the Jewish rules.
Also, let's consider the big difference between the Old and New Covenants. IN the Old Covenant, the people promised to keep the Commandments. As you said, it was almost impossible for them to do so. Why? They tried to do it under their own power.
In the New Covenant, we find better promises, the promises of God. He said He would write His Law upon our hearts and in our minds. Being filled with the Spirit, all things are possible, and keeping the Commandments is a joy and a blessing, not a chore.
When we love God, we keep the first four commandments, and when we love our neighbor, we keep the last 6 commandments. We are easily able to do so out of love. When we do it because we have to, then it becomes a burdensome rule, and we will surely fail eventually.
Do the Commandments stand? I think they do. Should we keep them in order to be saved? That is impossible, as in the example I gave from the Old Testament. When we are filled with the Spirit, I think we will joyfully keep all 10 Commandments, which includes the Sabbath. Can we say we don't have to keep the Sabbath because we can't? That is what many say.
Now, this statement about Christ being our Sabbath...that always grabs me in a very wrong way. Nothing personal, but I personally feel that phrase says something people want to hear that gives them reason to say..."see, I don't have to keep a day, Christ is my Sabbath."
Christ is not 1 day out of 7, He is not the 7th day of the Commandment. We may find rest for our souls in Him, but that in no way excuses a person to willfully disobey or set aside one of the Commandments, neither is that a fulfillment of the commandment.
How many would stand face to face with Jesus and say "I don't need to keep the Sabbath, you are my Sabbath." I doubt anyone could seriously hold eye contact with Him as the words came out of their mouth, knowing that He knows all things. As sadness filled His eyes, I think everyone would come to realize how weak those words are in excusing the commandment.
As the end approaches, Satan will test us in all of the areas of the 10 Commandments, especially the first 4. They deal with the worship of our God. He has already separated most of Christianity from spending the 7th day with God. He has others worshiping idols in Church, calling them Saints and saying it is ok to bow down before them. Need I go on? Read those first four commandments, and know that we will be tested severely in all of these areas as time draws near to the end.
Daniel's 3 friends were thrown in the fiery furnace because they refused to break the 10 Commandments. Daniel was thrown into the den of lion's for the same reason. Millions have been martyred for keeping God's commandments. Now people say we don't have to keep them anymore and offer many excuses to set them aside. I respectfully stand in disagreement.
Those who set aside the commandments, when told to bow down before idols as Daniels friends were commanded, will not worry about it, they will just drop and tie their shoes. How many here today will stand up and tell me that if they are told to bow down and worship an idol or die, will say that God's Commandments are no longer in effect and bow down before that idol because now they can. Please, stand up and be noticed, tell us here and now.
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RE: Sabbath - One Stop Thread - 3/21/2008 9:59:44 AM
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mcleod
Posts: 1071
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bjay,
quote:
Noone is looking down on you as a heretic. As I said before, I'm pretty sure that the majority of us who have posts do love God. And as I said before, the scriptures support the sabbath and I again say that I keep the sabbath as the bible says not only as a day of rest, but also the bible says to convocate yourselves together on the sabbath. So thats what I and those who also support keeping the sabbath do. I do not point fingers at anyone. I have gone to church on sunday after sunday for years.I now have it in my heart to keep the sabbath because it is in the bible. That's all. As with any of God's directions and instructions, it has to be within your heart as Jesus starts teaching in Matthew 5:21. He teaches the commandments and all of them deal with what is in the heart first.
Do you not understand what sabbath means? Sabbath means rest. You do as the scriptures says then you will rest. Not gathering together as a miss concept idea some people have.
Well also you thought you had LBolt on your side until you wrote that you gather together on Sunday(first day of the week). When I have to agree with them that the day that God blessed was the seventh day of the week. Which the Children of Israel were to keep from working on. My Father-in-law has that same idea that God switched days also.
I just take what the Jeremiah wrote that this is what the Lord says; "Stand at the crossroads and look; ask for ancient paths, ask where the good way is, and walk in it and you will find rest (sabbath) for your souls.
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RE: Sabbath - One Stop Thread - 3/21/2008 10:20:07 AM
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mcleod
Posts: 1071
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quote:
Correct me if I am reading this wrong, but in the first paragraph, you mention that "you can't help but do something physical on that day." As I read this paragraph, I couldn't help but think about the rules and regs the Jews put on the Sabbath, making the Sabbath a burden. They accused Jesus of breaking the Sabbath...because...HE didn't follow their rules. I've seen many Christians follow in the beliefs of those Jewish leaders by saying that "Jesus broke the Sabbath."
First thing you must note back then as is even to day in Jewish -Rabbis circles, Was that each would interput the Torah a little different way. So as we do also. As what you read in that law. You are not allowed to have anyone do any physical labor for you. Which as I understand and from my up bringing. Our meals were made the day before the seventh day so that all we had to do was eat them. We could not start a fire for that is forbidden in the Torah to do on that day.
So know maybe you can see that it was left up to the teacher on how he would interput the law. Now as anything you can go to great extremes and make so diffucult to follow. That you can have a bitter spirit come inside of you.
This why Jesus said be ware of the yeast of the pharisees. Who would go to great lenghts and show off their religion. Yet in their heart had no love. As the story of Paul who thought he was doing right (what the Torah said) in putting to death the early followers of Jesus. Yet he had no love to speak of at that time.
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RE: Sabbath - One Stop Thread - 3/21/2008 10:22:29 AM
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mcleod
Posts: 1071
Joined: 4/4/2006
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quote:
The Jews were upset that His disciples got grain while walking through the field, and accused them of breaking the Sabbath. Again, Jewish rules, not God's rules. Jesus walked to many places on the Sabbath. As He said, is it good to do good on the Sabbath? Yes it is. It is also a day to rest from our labors, not a day to just lay on the couch. We are to gather for worship, spend time with the Lord, with our families, fellowship with other believers, witness the love of God to others, etc.
Did you read the commandment in the book?
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RE: Sabbath - One Stop Thread - 3/21/2008 10:23:25 AM
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LoveYourEnemies
Posts: 67
Joined: 3/15/2008
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quote:
ORIGINAL: mcleod
bjay,
quote:
Noone is looking down on you as a heretic. As I said before, I'm pretty sure that the majority of us who have posts do love God. And as I said before, the scriptures support the sabbath and I again say that I keep the sabbath as the bible says not only as a day of rest, but also the bible says to convocate yourselves together on the sabbath. So thats what I and those who also support keeping the sabbath do. I do not point fingers at anyone. I have gone to church on sunday after sunday for years.I now have it in my heart to keep the sabbath because it is in the bible. That's all. As with any of God's directions and instructions, it has to be within your heart as Jesus starts teaching in Matthew 5:21. He teaches the commandments and all of them deal with what is in the heart first.
Do you not understand what sabbath means? Sabbath means rest. You do as the scriptures says then you will rest. Not gathering together as a miss concept idea some people have.
Well also you thought you had LBolt on your side until you wrote that you gather together on Sunday(first day of the week). When I have to agree with them that the day that God blessed was the seventh day of the week. Which the Children of Israel were to keep from working on. My Father-in-law has that same idea that God switched days also.
I just take what the Jeremiah wrote that this is what the Lord says; "Stand at the crossroads and look; ask for ancient paths, ask where the good way is, and walk in it and you will find rest (sabbath) for your souls.
Sometimes on forums such as this, it appears as though we have a competition to prove each other wrong. Everyone feels he is right and that all those who oppose him are wrong. It would be nice to see people take an attitude of "let's study the Scriptures, let's compare and see what the truth is" approach. Isn't that what Scripture tells us to do?
2Ti 2:15 Study to show thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.
Isa 28:10 For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little
When I follow the advice of Scripture, and I search out all that I can, and compare all that I can with what others find, we sometimes find amazing things...like the following verse:
Lev 23:3 Six days shall work be done: but the seventh day is the sabbath of rest, a holy convocation; ye shall do no work therein: it is the sabbath of the LORD in all your dwellings.
Here, we find that the sabbath is not only rest, but a holy convocation. So I took the liberty of looking up convocation, keeping in mind that the word holy precedes it:
mik-raw'
From H7121; something called out, that is, a public meeting (the act, the persons, or the palce); also a rehearsal: - assembly, calling, convocation, reading.
Keep in mind that Jesus also gathered in the temple on the Sabbath.
Let's look at what you said:
quote:
Do you not understand what sabbath means? Sabbath means rest. You do as the scriptures says then you will rest. Not gathering together as a miss concept idea some people have.
We aren't concerned about the competition of who is right or who is wrong, we are concerned with what the Scriptures say. Looking at the above verses we find that the Sabbath entails a Holy Convocation, or gathering. The verse also tells us it is a Sabbath (rest). When I compare the Scriptures (and I have studied this issue very thoroughly since 1995) I find that to rest on the Sabbath day means to cease our labors, not to lay in bed or on the couch all day and be lazy. Christ clarified many things when he asked if it was good or bad to do good on the Sabbath.
Looking at the evidence, I think it is very clear that the Sabbath includes a gathering. If anyone disagrees, and has Scriptural evidence that I need to see, please share it. If you just disagree and don't remember the verse, tell us your thoughts on the matter. It is important to compare and dig for the truth, not to win a battle of wits or of proving who is right or wrong. Let's study this thing out, as the Scriptures command. I have said in my brief time here that if I am wrong, I want to know, and I mean that. Let's see Scriptural evidence and compare!!!
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RE: Sabbath - One Stop Thread - 3/21/2008 10:51:16 AM
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mcleod
Posts: 1071
Joined: 4/4/2006
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LoveYourEnemies,
quote:
How many would stand face to face with Jesus and say "I don't need to keep the Sabbath, you are my Sabbath." I doubt anyone could seriously hold eye contact with Him as the words came out of their mouth, knowing that He knows all things. As sadness filled His eyes, I think everyone would come to realize how weak those words are in excusing the commandment
You said that I could not look him in the eye because I find my rest in him. " Come to me all of you are weary and burden,and Iwill give you REST(sabbath). Take my yoke upon you and learn from me. for I am gentle and humble in heart, and you will find REST(sabbath)for your souls. For my yoke and my burden is light.
Maybe not to be as bold as you seem to be. Yet do a study on what words in the bible are used as sabbath in it. Such as Pslam95:7-11 Today, if you hear his voice do not harden your hearts as you did in the rebellion, during the testing in the desert, where your fathers tested and tried me and for forty years saw what I did. That is why I was angry with that genration and I said, "Their hearts are always going astry, and they have not known my ways. So I declared on oath in my anger. They shall never enter my Sabbath.
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RE: Sabbath - One Stop Thread - 3/22/2008 10:37:16 AM
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bjay0801
Posts: 144
Joined: 12/10/2007
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I hope that Love answered your question, Mcleod. I already knew what Levticus said but unfortunatley, you did not. The scriptures say that we do rest (no argument there) and we do gather together on the sabbath. Also look at what the prophets wrote when God would judge Israel; one of the reasons He did send judgement is for profaning His sabbaths. I'm just going by what the scriptures have said, that's all.
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O that there were such an heart in them, that they would fear me, and keep all my commandments always, that it might be well with them, and with their children for ever!
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RE: Sabbath - One Stop Thread - 3/22/2008 2:38:28 PM
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LoveYourEnemies
Posts: 67
Joined: 3/15/2008
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bjay, you wrote
quote:
one of the reasons He did send judgement is for profaning His sabbaths
In thinking about Jesus and the Jewish leaders, they were looking for something of which they could find Him guilty in regards to breaking the Law. I cannot think of any thing they found other than His breaking their Sabbath regulations which they added to the law, and of blasphemy. He was continually at odds with them over healing on the Sabbath and a few other things like the disciples eating on the Sabbath while walking through the fields. Other than that, what other issues did they have with Him besides His claim to being the Son of God of which they accused Him of blasphemy?
Look at how the Sabbath was such a contentious issue then, as well as what you mentioned. The Sabbath was not only a huge issue, it was as if it was practically singled out.
We find the Sabbath at creation, we find it in Exodus at the giving of the law to Moses. We find Jesus keeping it. We know it is in the new heaven and the new earth...yet people try to say it no longer exists today. For what reason would it be done away with during our time, then appear again in the new heaven and new earth? I wonder how people who want to drop the Sabbath explain this mystery.
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RE: Sabbath - One Stop Thread - 3/22/2008 2:42:53 PM
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LoveYourEnemies
Posts: 67
Joined: 3/15/2008
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quote:
ORIGINAL: mcleod
LoveYourEnemies,
quote:
How many would stand face to face with Jesus and say "I don't need to keep the Sabbath, you are my Sabbath." I doubt anyone could seriously hold eye contact with Him as the words came out of their mouth, knowing that He knows all things. As sadness filled His eyes, I think everyone would come to realize how weak those words are in excusing the commandment
You said that I could not look him in the eye because I find my rest in him. " Come to me all of you are weary and burden,and Iwill give you REST(sabbath). Take my yoke upon you and learn from me. for I am gentle and humble in heart, and you will find REST(sabbath)for your souls. For my yoke and my burden is light.
Maybe not to be as bold as you seem to be. Yet do a study on what words in the bible are used as sabbath in it. Such as Pslam95:7-11 Today, if you hear his voice do not harden your hearts as you did in the rebellion, during the testing in the desert, where your fathers tested and tried me and for forty years saw what I did. That is why I was angry with that genration and I said, "Their hearts are always going astry, and they have not known my ways. So I declared on oath in my anger. They shall never enter my Sabbath.
Why do you think finding rest in Jesus nullifies the Sabbath commandment in keeping a day Holy to God??? These are two seperate issues, but people use this excuse to set aside the Sabbath IMO. Finding rest in Jesus has absolutely nothing to do with the 4th Commandment. Go to Exodus 20, and tell me how Jesus replaces that specific commandment please. I am most interested in your explanation.
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RE: Sabbath - One Stop Thread - 3/22/2008 2:53:17 PM
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LoveYourEnemies
Posts: 67
Joined: 3/15/2008
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quote:
ORIGINAL: LBolt
LoveYourEnemies, again welcome to the Crosswalk forums. In regards to post # 2727 it probably would be better answered in the one stop "Law" thread.
I agree with your statement, "I think the 10 Commandments are still in force. I do not think they have been abrogated, nor can they be changed."
Psa. 119:89-91
Psa. 119 all of it
Gen. 26:5
I John 2:3-4
I John 3:22
I John 5:2
2 John 1:6
The reason I brought up what I did in posting #2727, is I think this is a major foundation issue in regards to the Sabbath command. If we cannot agree on that point, all else is fruitless discussion. If the 10 Commandments have been abrogated, no need to worry about the Sabbath. If they are still in existance, then the Sabbath stands. I think it is that simple.
Yet some say the law was abrogated, then all but the Sabbath Commandment was reinstated. I've asked many people to provide evidence for such a claim, and not one ever has. If anyone here supports this teaching, please share this with me.
Although this thread is about the Sabbath, is is also a part of the law. If we need to settle the issue of whether or not the 10 Commandments stand in the law thread, so be it...let's take this issue over there. It doesn't matter to me, but the results would definitely need to be brought back here to finish this topic out.
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RE: Sabbath - One Stop Thread - 3/23/2008 10:03:35 PM
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SpongeBlog
Posts: 976
Joined: 12/9/2006
Status: online
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quote:
ORIGINAL: LoveYourEnemies
...If the 10 Commandments have been abrogated, no need to worry about the Sabbath. If they are still in existance, then the Sabbath stands. I think it is that simple.
The only thing that got abrogated was the way they are fulfilled in the life of the believer. You must understand with the eyes of your spirit how Biblical love fulfills all of the commandments of God, including the first four of the Ten Commandments.
'... he who loves his fellowman has fulfilled the law. The commandments, "Do not commit adultery," "Do not murder," "Do not steal," "Do not covet," and whatever other commandment there may be, are summed up in this one rule: "Love your neighbor as yourself." Love does no harm to its neighbor. Therefore love is the fulfillment of the law. (Romans 13:8-10)
You may ask, "how does love replace a literal day of rest?" And it's a fair question. We can go there if you want. The scriptures themselves help us understand how.
quote:
ORIGINAL: LoveYourEnemies
Yet some say the law was abrogated, then all but the Sabbath Commandment was reinstated. I've asked many people to provide evidence for such a claim, and not one ever has. If anyone here supports this teaching, please share this with me.
What they really should be saying is we fulfill all of the Ten Commandments, and all the rest of the Mosaic law, when "we serve in the new way of the Spirit, and not in the old way of the written code", as Paul says in Romans 7:6. The law of Sabbath fulfilled in the new and better way of the Spirit is not a literal day of rest anymore, just as Jesus's better sacrifice replaced the literal animal sacrifices, and spiritual circumcision by the Holy Spirit replaced literal flesh circumcision. Yet all of the requirements of these commands are satisfactorily met in the new way of the Spirit.
< Message edited by SpongeBlog -- 3/23/2008 10:10:05 PM >
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"For the kingdom of God is not a matter of eating and drinking, but of righteousness, peace and joy in the Holy Spirit, because anyone who serves Christ in this way is pleasing to God and approved by men." (Romans 14:17,18)
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RE: Sabbath - One Stop Thread - 3/24/2008 10:24:12 AM
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Dred
Posts: 220
Joined: 10/11/2007
From: Alabama
Status: offline
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quote:
Now, this statement about Christ being our Sabbath...that always grabs me in a very wrong way. Nothing personal, but I personally feel that phrase says something people want to hear that gives them reason to say..."see, I don't have to keep a day, Christ is my Sabbath."
"Therefore no one is to act as your judge in regard to food or drink or in respect to a festival or a new moon or a Sabbath day--things which are a mere shadow of what is to come; but the substance belongs to Christ."
Colossians 2:16-17
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RE: Sabbath - One Stop Thread - 3/24/2008 10:43:57 AM
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mcleod
Posts: 1071
Joined: 4/4/2006
Status: offline
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LoveYour Enemies,
quote:
Why do you think finding rest in Jesus nullifies the Sabbath commandment in keeping a day Holy to God??? These are two seperate issues, but people use this excuse to set aside the Sabbath IMO. Finding rest in Jesus has absolutely nothing to do with the 4th Commandment. Go to Exodus 20, and tell me how Jesus replaces that specific commandment please. I am most interested in your explanation.
You people keeping going back to Exodus 20 and that's fine. But when Noah came out of the ark. Why didn't God tell him about the sabbath day law? You may say well it was told in the garden about that day. And so if this is true. But again why didn't God mention it again.? To Noah who was a righteous man according to the scriptures.
Noahide law as I have brought to attention of everyone who has read this thread before was; Believe in no more than one God. Live in a community with a system of justice. Refrain from blasphemy. Refrain from murder. Refrain from adultery. Refrain from stealing. Refrain from eating a limb from a living animal.
Yet no mention of a sabbath day. We need to also need to keep in mind that for some reason God never changes or he is a liar. Which I believe we all agree to that. That's why I know that the Sabbath day is the seventh day of the week not the first. But in the mean time everyday the Lord has made we are to rejoice and be glad in it.
Just like the Pharisees we can become hung up on a certain aspects of a law and miss the real meaning of what God wants us to do and how we are to act here on earth.
The Pharisees had also alot of other problems other than the sabbath day law. They would make sure that they had tithing down right. They would go to great lenths to look good in the public eyes. When Jesus said to them in Matt.23:22-35. Jesus was saying that they were only oberserving certain aspects of the law yet forgetting the important matters at hand.
When you say that "I don't believe in a works base system for salvation". Yet you come back and then say that you NEED to keep the commandments. Then you are no longer different than the Pharisees who would have that as requirement also to have eternal life. As Paul wrote should I keep sinning that his grace may abound more. No! For we died to it and having been baptized into Christ Jesus. Therefore we are buried with him. This is why we need not to judge someone on a day in which they keep for this is between God and them.
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RE: Sabbath - One Stop Thread - 3/25/2008 12:47:19 PM
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LBolt
Posts: 954
Joined: 11/30/2007
Status: offline
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quote:
"Therefore no one is to act as your judge in regard to food or drink or in respect to a festival or a new moon or a Sabbath day--things which are a mere shadow of what is to come; but the substance belongs to Christ."
Colossians 2:16-17
If the shadow points you to Christ who is the very substance or object why shouldn't we keep those things mentioned in the verse?
Let's read the verse preceding to a more clearer idea what Sha'ul was dealing with.
8 Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments F8 of the world, and not after Christ. 9 For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. 10 And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power: 11 In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ: 12 Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.
13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses; 14 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross; 15 And having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it. F9
16 Let no man therefore judge you in meat, F10 or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days: 17 Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ.
The bolded areas are keys to understanding this argument. Is God's word vain? Is God's Word mere philosophy? Is God's Word "rudiments of this world?" The word "ordinances" is the Greek word "dogmas". Is God's Word filled with opinionated man-made teachings? Hopefully you would have con | | |
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