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wolfvanzandt -> RE: Masturbation - One Stop Thread (8/9/2005 5:44:47 PM)

quote:

um this is really simple. it is indeed a sin just like anything else.

God looks at the heart.

if you look at a women with lust you are an adulturer.


If you read the original threads, you'll see the (serious) problems I have with that position.
It's not necessarily true at all and the Bible takes a rather neutral stance when it talks about masturbation.

quote:

Wow. So you're a health professional? What led you to go in that feild? You must care about people alot to work in rehabilitations, that's commendable.


quote:

Thanks. I do care about people. I am also fascinated by humanity and the development of strategies to help people get around their disabilities appeals to the sleuth in me. I also have an evangelistic bent and my job places me into evangelistic situations.


But there is specific mention of masturbation in the Bible and it's neutral on the issue.



CatholicCritter -> RE: Masturbation - One Stop Thread (8/9/2005 6:09:38 PM)

quote:

It's not necessarily true at all and the Bible takes a rather neutral stance when it talks about masturbation.



The Bible is not explicit about abortion either--do we then consider this 'neutral'? How about polygamy? Yet the Christian Church has taught that they are intrinsically evil from the beginning. How do you explain this? The Church which Jesus promised would be led into all Truth by the Holy Spirit taught that masturbation was sinful from the beginning.


quote:

But there is specific mention of masturbation in the Bible and it's neutral on the issue.


Can you re-post that verse, please?



Elad02 -> RE: Masturbation - One Stop Thread (8/9/2005 7:10:15 PM)

Ok here's my opinion. I don't believe it's a sin at all. Masturbation got its bad rap from people who thought it was wrong and they've passed that on through generations. All the guilt people feel about doing it comes from growing up being told that it's wrong by parents, books, whatever, and not based on what the Bible says/doesn't say.

Here are some excerpts from books written by Christian authors on this subject.

quote:

Masturbation can be a healthy, enjoyable way for a person without a sexual partner to experience sexual gratification. Since God has created humans as sexual beings, masturbation provides a way for individuals to experience their sexuality and meet their sexual needs. (p. 246)

Jesus warns that lust leads to adultery, and adultery is sin. However, lusting is not the same as fantasizing ....

Fantasies about future possibilities are usually benign.... Desiring a specific person, and directing on ways to fulfill the desire, is a form of lust. Fantasy, on the other hand, is more general and does not include attempts at achieving that exact fantasy. (p. 247)


quote:

... we are created by God as sexual beings and the worst thing we can do is pretend this is not so. Repressed sexual feelings and desires will almost certainly come out in inappropriate ways.

We think there is a better way - self-pleasuring.... You need not feel guilt about it. If God has given you sexual desire, is it not reasonable to believe that God also gives ways to satisfy that desire?

We believe that the ability to imagine and fantasize is a gift from God and that our lives would be poorer without it.


I've read of people who decided to leave the Christian faith because they truly desired to please God, but were told that this is such a horrible sin so they felt they couldn't please God. How sad. I agree with the quote above. God gave us guys a strong sexual desire, so I don't get how the heck one is supposed to just ignore that. If you think it's a sin and it bothers you - don't do it, but don't tell others it's a sin to do it.



SuperFork -> RE: Masturbation - One Stop Thread (8/9/2005 7:11:28 PM)

did you not read my post? or...do you believe it is not a sin to have sex outside of marriage?


and Elad...just because you are fantasizing about sex does not mean you are not having sex.

Again, God looks at the heart.


God gave us a sexual desire so we would have pleasure in sex...with our wife...not some made up woman...




Oh and this is not what I say, or "How i look at it". This is what our dad says. If it was up to me though it wouldnt be a sin.


Keep sex inside marriage period.



And my life is not poorer because i choose not to have sex outside of marriage (masturbate). On the contrary i am filled with Joy and peace that i have prayed about it and God has set me free from it. I have already made it a goal of my life to never marry, or date, because i dont want anything to get in the way of my relationship with Dad. This is because of the joy he gives me. You may think that there is not way to escape temptation, but i believe the bible, and i have depended on God to help me and have experienced him more fully because of it.



Elad02 -> RE: Masturbation - One Stop Thread (8/9/2005 7:27:22 PM)

quote:

just because you are fantasizing about sex does not mean you are not having sex.

I don't understand that. There is a huge difference between imagining something and actually doing it.

quote:

God gave us a sexual desire so we would have pleasure in sex...with our wife...not some made up woman...

Umm.. not everybody has a wife. The desire is still there with no wife.



SuperFork -> RE: Masturbation - One Stop Thread (8/9/2005 7:30:28 PM)

Elad. I said God looks at the heart. If i look at my brother with hate i am a MURDERER in God's eyes.

"Anyone who hates his brother is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life in him." 1 John 3:15

If i dont have a wife, and i fantazise about having SEX, obviously not with my WIFE because i dont HAVE ONE. i have commitied ADULTURY [sm=icon_smile_yikes.gif]



SuperFork -> RE: Masturbation - One Stop Thread (8/9/2005 7:33:57 PM)

And if you have more QUESTIONS feel free to ask DAD before posting here.


I love you guys.



Elad02 -> RE: Masturbation - One Stop Thread (8/9/2005 8:04:33 PM)

SuperFork,

I respect your opinion, I just don't agree with it.

I used to think it was wrong too. I felt like junk after I did it. I prayed many, many times for God to free me of it. I even promised Him I would stop, but a week or so later I was doing it again. Then I'd feel even worse because I couldn't keep my promise to God. I started reading into this online and I realized just how many people were going through the same thing I was. Soon after that I realized it wasn't a sin. Our bodies have a need for sex just like we need food. And since it's wrong to have sex outside marriage that's where masturbation comes it. It is used to control our sex drive.

Every time this subject is brought up someone always mentions that fantasizing is wrong too, but there's something I don't quite understand with this. If one goes without masturbating for a while, they (usually) have a wet dream. Ok I don't know about anyone else, but whenever I've had one I've always dreamed of something sexual. I have no control over what I dream. So if God made us dream like that when we can't even control it, I don't see what the big deal is.



SuperFork -> RE: Masturbation - One Stop Thread (8/9/2005 9:45:47 PM)

my opinion is what God has told me.


Yea, you cant control wet dreams. Masturbation is not what is supposed to control your sex drive or health or whatever you said...thats why God designed wet dreams. All you told me was that you did not agree with me and did not show any evidence against what my post said. Im sorry but i choose to obey and believe the Bible.



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DaveW -> RE: Masturbation - One Stop Thread (8/10/2005 6:36:33 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: CatholicCritter

boy, talk about butchering a bible verse. it's talking about TEMPTATION. and as such, God gives us a way of escape from the temptation of the sin. scripture, prayer, and grace are ways of escape in that they make us strong enough to not commit the sin. the sin is masturbation and God ALWAYS gives us a way of escape from the temptation of the sin. Escape is NEVER allowing the sin to occur, not even in your version of the Bible.

Yes, I am talking about a sin-free escape from the temptation to have sex with someone(not your spouse). Your reply comes from the viewpoint that M is in itself sinful and would be substituting one sin for another. I reject that position completely. Since M is never listed ANYWHERE in scripture as sinful, and in one case is mentioned positively (Song of Songs chapter 5) albeit the female side of it, the burden of proof is on those who claim it to be inherently sinful to show that it is. It is never mentioned in the Law, despite the fact that Israel was very familiar with the practice as it was common and considered "holy" in Egypt. It is shown frequetly in heiroglyphs and was part of their creation myth. Since many prohibitions specifically targeted the pagan practices of Cannan and Egypt, the silence on this specific practice must be explained.



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DaveW -> RE: Masturbation - One Stop Thread (8/10/2005 12:36:44 PM)

quote:

Since when should Christians turn to Egypt for moral standards?

Are you trying intentionally to misunderstand what I am saying? In no way did I say that Egypt is any kind of moral standard. I was pointing out that Israel was VERY FAMILIAR with this, having been there. It was not specifically prohibited, although many other practices WERE SPECIFICALLY PROHIBITED.

M is mentioned in scripture, maybe in several places. The most direct is in Song of Solomon 5. It would also clearly fall under the Levitical purity laws and Deut 23.10. These are the same as for a married couple having normal relations. No Difference.

BTW, SoS also refers to oral sex about 5 times, both ways and in a positive light.; but that is off topic.



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SuperFork -> RE: Masturbation - One Stop Thread (8/10/2005 4:35:10 PM)

You can present the truth right in front of someone and they will just refuse to believe it if it means they have to give up a sin.

Why do you people let satan plague your minds? Do you choose to ignore truth completely? Did you people even READ the posts or do you just skip everything that might threaten your sinful act. This argument is completely pointless if you refuse to stay on topic. I gave you a post, scripture, and truth and you people just completely ignore it. You only reply to the topics that you can say is wrong so that you wont have to feel guilty. The only reason why you people are on this thread anyway is because you are looking for reasons or excuses to sin. Dont post unless you are open to truth even if it hurts!

This is by NO means an argument about whose "opinion" is better, we are talking about God's law and the word of God.



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wolfvanzandt -> RE: Masturbation - One Stop Thread (8/10/2005 6:24:31 PM)

quote:

Actually, secular sexual therapists all unaminously state that masturbation is something that increases sexual drive, instead of decreasing it.


Actually, I'd like to see a reference on that. It's news to me.

Superfork, you're using your own very expanded definition of adultry. You're not using any that could be supported from scripture.

quote:

my opinion is what God has told me.


And how am I supposed to know that that's an actual pronouncement from God or just something you came up with in your own head. It's not supported by scripture.




quote:

You can present the truth right in front of someone and they will just refuse to believe it if it means they have to give up a sin.


Suprefork, yer being obnoxious so let me turn that around to point at you, you can show some people the truth any number of ways and if it doesn't line up with their opinions, they will never accept it.

quote:

I gave you a post, scripture, and truth and you people just completely ignore it.


And like I said, I didn't ignore your post or the scripture - I just seriously disagree with your expanded interpretation of it.

Now, prove by the scripture that it's always sinful to have sex outside of marriage. Prove that fantasizing about an imaginary person is lust - Jesus said that when you look at a (real) woman with lust in your heart, you have committed adultry. You can't support your position with scripture.

quote:

This is by NO means an argument about whose "opinion" is better, we are talking about God's law and the word of God.


Actually, I'm talking about people wanting to put their own spin on what is God's law and then they want everyone else to adher to their own interpretation even when it's not supported by scripture.

As for the reference to masturbation in the Law, I'll have to find that. It was referenced in the original thread which has since disappeared.



Elad02 -> RE: Masturbation - One Stop Thread (8/10/2005 7:44:11 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: WhatLoveIs
Christianity is not all about "me." Jesus said "Deny thyself, take up thy cross and follow me." Self gratification is the opposit of denying self - it's the apex of selfishness to pleasure onself through masturbation.


Denying one's self doesn't mean ignoring everything about 'me'. There are so many things one can do that would be considered selfish according to that.

quote:

I just proved in two posts on page 1, that:

- "Anthing not specifically mentioned in scripture CAN be forbidden, when it comes under the catagories of general words discribing sin."

- "masturbation most likely comes under one of the catagories of sexual sin, such as sexual immorality."

- If that is the case, then masturbation is forbidden, even though it's not speciffically mentioned in scripture.

Here's a list of a few things not specifically mentioned in scripture:
- Abortion
- Child abuse
- Child molestation
- pedophillia
- torchure
- shooting heroin
- oral sex
- anal sex

To say that "God automatically approves of masturbation because it's not mentioned by name," means that God automatically approves of everything not specifically mentioned in scripture.

Some of those things you mentioned are considered sin by other contexts. I think most of them simply fall under the law of love. We are called to love others. If we love someone we aren't going to kill/abuse/molest/torture them. That's just common sense.

quote:

Actually, secular sexual therapists all unaminously state that masturbation is something that increases sexual drive, instead of decreasing it.


I'd like to see a reference on that as well.



SuperFork -> RE: Masturbation - One Stop Thread (8/10/2005 8:25:11 PM)

Whatloveis: i am not critisizing peoples' "faults in character" i am simply stating dont post here unless you will Listen and choose not to ignore others posts instead of simply changing the subject, saying "i dont agree" without saying why etc.

Wolf: i Did provide scripture about what God said. um yea, God kind of intended for us to have sex inside marriage. i dont know what you mean when you imply it is not always sinful to have sex outside of marriage. sex binds a man and a woman and they become one flesh... And you ask me how fantasizing about sex is bad even if it is with a made up women? i already said in my post

KEEP SEX INSIDE MARRIAGE.

Fantasizing about SEX outside of MARRIAGE in your HEART=SIN

KEEP SEX INSIDE MARRIAGE.

ADULTERY Voluntary sexual intercourse between a married person and a partner other than the lawful spouse.
I am not married to the made up women in my head but I HAD SEX WITH HER IN MY HEART LAST NIGHT....OH NOOO I HAVE JUST COMMITED ADULTERY...DIDNT Jesus SAY SOMETHING LIKE THAT IS A SIN? I HOPE NOT, BECAUSE THAT WOULD MEAN I HAVE SINNED !!

Better? [:D]



Quote from Wolf:
Suprefork, yer being obnoxious so let me turn that around to point at you, you can show some people the truth any number of ways and if it doesn't line up with their opinions, they will never accept it.

"God said dont murder BUT, its my opinion that you should murder thus GOD IS WRONG BECAUSE I DONT AGREE." There, thats how it should be said right?



Deleted User -> [Deleted] (8/11/2005 1:45:57 AM)

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DaveW -> RE: Masturbation - One Stop Thread (8/11/2005 7:38:49 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: WhatLoveIs

I've looked at Song of Solomon chapter 5 several times, in several editions of Crosswalk's bible search engine - I couldn't pick up any references to masturbation.

Is it perhaps in another chapter of SOS? or another version of the Bible?

Either way, could you qoute it as best as you can, and the translation you're using?

I listed this under CC a year or 2 ago and it got pulled immediatly for being too graphic.

Song of Solomon 5 (New American Standard Bible)

2 I was asleep but my heart was awake.
A voice! My beloved was knocking:
'Open to me, my sister, my darling,
My dove, my perfect one!
For my head is drenched with dew,
My locks with the damp of the night.'
3 I have taken off my dress,
How can I put it on again?
I have washed my feet,
How can I dirty them again?
4 My beloved extended his hand through the opening,
And my feelings were aroused for him.
5 I arose to open to my beloved;
And my hands dripped with myrrh,
And my fingers with liquid myrrh,
On the handles of the bolt.

I cannot give a line by line here or it will be yanked as well. Suffice it to say that in v2 she is in kind of a dreamy fantasy state of mind. "Opening" in v4 says nothing about a door in the original as the KJV added. The word is used elsewhere as a hole in the ground or a body cavity. She gets aroused. What "hole" would that be? Her fingers were dripping (look in previous chapters for what myrrh stands for) after being aroused.

I am hoping this was not too far over the top.



DaveW -> RE: Masturbation - One Stop Thread (8/11/2005 7:50:46 AM)

quote:

There are even ungodly sex therapists who recommend masturbation as a way of increasing sexual desire, not lessening it.

That is for women. Female sexual response/desire can be increased or decreased within a certain range by the frequency of activity. Masturbating more than 3 or 4 times a week will start increasing their desire. Of course there are individual maximums and minimums.

On what basis is this ungodly? If a wife wants her husband MORE, what is wrong with that?



Deleted User -> [Deleted] (8/11/2005 8:14:38 AM)

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DaveW -> RE: Masturbation - One Stop Thread (8/11/2005 9:01:32 AM)

quote:

it might be wise to take subjects of:
- masturbation between partners in marriage, and
- mutual masturbation of two (or more people) outside of marriage,
to another thread(s).

Perhaps. But in the wisdom of the mods this thread is the catch-all for all discussions on this topic. None others will be allowed.
quote:

the SOS passage is a very vague refference, that only has the smallest possibility of talking about M and perhaps it's only a retelling of her wet dream.

Vague in English, not so vague in the original. Even if it is a "wet dream" her hands were involved (which is the definition of M, from the latin manus (hand) + sturbo (stir up)) and since it is not criticized anywhere, it has to be taken into account.



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