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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 7/5/2008 7:33:05 AM
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rwe2156
Posts: 2366
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quote:
ORIGINAL: FolkSingerBlues
What decisions can we make that God has not given us the
parameters to make such decisions?
I see two sides to free will:
1) We can only do what God has decided we will do.
2) We can only do what God allows us to do, e.g. sin.
quote:
After all there is nothing that we can decide to do that goes
beyond what God has allowed our choices to be.
True, we operate within God's will.
You think it is God's will that we sin?
If no, then why do we sin? Answer: We choose to sin.
If yes, then believe God causes evil at your own peril.
I see a tension in the Bible between predestination and free will.
God is sovereign, but allows man free will to do certain things.
Foreknowing man will sin does not make God the cause of it.
Calvinism is forced to define foreknow to = foreordain,
and they box God into a one dimensional view of sovereignty,
whereby God aids and abets Satan in the orchestration of evil.
I, too, seek to understand it, and the only way I can understand
it is to choose to live in it, not camp out on one side or the other
a be content with throwing rocks at the "other side" as
some here are content to do (and are quite good at it, I might add).
Its real simple to me: If God is the cause of everything, God causes sin.
_____________________________
The Truth is between the tensions. The "contradictions"only reflect our lack of understanding.
So we choose sides. God help us.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 7/5/2008 7:50:32 AM
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rwe2156
Posts: 2366
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quote:
ORIGINAL: KingJamesBond
Why dont you instantly decide to hate Jesus Christ.
You know I couldn't do that because I am saved.
You completely miss my point about repentance I am afraid.
Does the Bible say we (Christians) can sin? Of course it does.
We choose to sin, even as children of God.
Is it God's will for us to sin?
If it is not God's will for us to sin, then how do we sin?
Right.....
WE choose to sin and God allows us to sin.
God does not cause us to sin.
quote:
Now, after you freely make choices for several hours showing
us how easy it is for you to decide and hate what you really love......
and decide to love what you really hate.....let us all know on this forum
of how easy it was to will what you just cant will! 
What else do you hate?
How about we work with food?
In Thailand they eat big juicy bugs.
Why dont you load up a gigantic bowel full of big green
juicy mushy grub worms as big as your thumb.
As you sit there exercising this special ability you have
to choose to hate and love things freely.....just gob down those gushy grubs one at a time!
The first grub you can freely make a decision and choose to hate the taste. The second grub you can freely decide to choose to love the taste. The third you can freely choose to hate the taste. The fourth you can freely choose to love the taste........and so on and so on.
KJB - why are you so emotional about this?
Why don't you look for yourself and see if man is able to repent.
Go sneak into the other camp and read their stuff with an open mind.
I have given you the Scriptures that say
God commands it, desires it, waits for us to do it, and rejoices when we do it.
If God was the cause of our repentance, none of this makes sense.
He has given his creation free will to reject him or accept him.
quote:
Why is it you keep thinking other people have the abilty to love what they clearly hate?
People are not free to love what they hate. Cant you see that?
Repentance does not start with loving something they hate.
It begins with hating something they love!
THEN God moves in and enables them to believe the gospel and be saved.
quote:
I believe that people make decisions in accordance with their will.
If their wills are held captive, and "decision" they make is not based on the ability to choose.
You said you agreed with Grudem's thesis that repentance is a personal decision of man.
quote:
If their wills are held captive by God.....
they will make decisions based on such captivity.
Are you promoting sinless perfection, KJB?
If not, how can one of your elect whose will has been
captured by God through Irresistible Grace ever sin?
quote:
You constantly reject the Scripture I provided so your
theology rests on imagination rather than sound Scripture and reality.
My theology resides in the tension of God Draws ------> Man Must Respond.
Is that a doctrine? I've not found it anywhere.
if perhaps God may grant them repentance leading to the knowledge of the truth, and they may come to their senses and escape from the snare of the devil, having been held captive by him to do his will.
If people are held captive by satan in opposition to Timothy it is because Timothy was preaching the Word of God.
Aren't we granted repentance after we repent?
Isn't this the same as being forgiven?
_____________________________
The Truth is between the tensions. The "contradictions"only reflect our lack of understanding.
So we choose sides. God help us.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 7/5/2008 8:12:51 AM
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rwe2156
Posts: 2366
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For the Reformed Ones:
Lets say I have repented.
My confidence comes from the fact that my mind and heart has
definitely and radically and permanently (sorry Free) changed
(my wanter has changed, as was mentioned before).
My relationship with sin has changed (sanctified), and
my relationship with God has also changed (justified).
In turning away from sin (darkness) I have turned toward God (light).
If this is true and from the heart, the Bible says God will save me.
---> Alright so far?
OK.
How would I know whether I have made a personal decision
to repent vs. I have made a decision caused by God?
How can my mind perceive it was God that caused it?
Is it because it happened, because it works, because it is permanent?
IF I COULDN'T do any of it, and God did all of it, how do I know God did it?
Because you know it could be me, or God, or my imagination.
Many people's sin "wanters" change - I am thinking ALANON,
Weight Watchers, etc.
Hey - I made personal decision to lose weight, change my diet
and exercise a couple years ago and not only lost 60 pounds,
I regularly do 20+ mile bike rides.
Where I see this "all God, no man" theology going is we cannot know
we are saved until we see Him, because we can never know if
it is us or God. We sin after we are saved, don't we?
If you all are comfy with not knowing you are saved until you get to heaven, that's fine.
I firmly believe God wants us to know we are saved IN THIS LIFE.
Man DOES have a role in his salvation without being the cause of it.
_____________________________
The Truth is between the tensions. The "contradictions"only reflect our lack of understanding.
So we choose sides. God help us.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 7/5/2008 9:16:00 AM
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FreeGrace
Posts: 7881
Joined: 12/30/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: KingJamesBond
Odeliya,
What do you suppose causes a person to turn to Jesus Christ?
My answer is one's conviction of soul when faced with the issues.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 7/5/2008 9:17:24 AM
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FreeGrace
Posts: 7881
Joined: 12/30/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: KingJamesBond
FreeGrace,
How about I claim my mind is not free but rather controlled by God, and you continue to claim yours is free and under your control and we leave it at that?
Is that ok with you? 
KJB, you may claim anything you want to. That is fine with me.
But, let me ask you this one question: when you are sinning, as we all do, exactly who is controlling your mind at that time?
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 7/5/2008 9:20:01 AM
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FreeGrace
Posts: 7881
Joined: 12/30/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: KingJamesBond
What exactly is this free-will able to do?
Make choices of available options, KJB. For example, when presented with the gospel, people make a choice of whether to believe what God promises say, or believe what some other people say, or to just continue to believe whatever they think is "truth".
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 7/5/2008 9:23:02 AM
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SureHope
Posts: 1621
Joined: 3/11/2007
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quote:
ORIGINAL: FolkSingerBlues
There aren't many people that would say "I hate God." That is a variable that would be important to add to this whole discussion.
I agree, there are not many who woud say "I hate God," but all outside of Christ show that they do by their attitudes and actions.
_____________________________
-Fix Your Hope Completely on the Grace to be Brought to You at the Revelation of Jesus Christ (1 Pet 1:13)
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 7/5/2008 9:25:54 AM
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Mannamuncher
Posts: 2920
Joined: 4/13/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: kelman
quote:
ORIGINAL: KingJamesBond
Mannamuncher
Jesus specifically verbalizes to Peter how God is known.
Jesus tells us how God can ONLY be known.
REVELATION from God, nothing within man.
Matthew 16:17 (King James Version)
17And Jesus answered and said unto him,
Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath
not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.
You got it! Good point. Christ can only be known to man by the work of the Holy Spirit. It's not simply the "hearing" of the Word or making a decision or even man's own faith. This Word must be applied to the new heart, the soft heart - not the heart of stone; and, only God can change the heart of man.
Hey kelman !
It's from the outside to the inside.
That which we do not have, we cannot
create or manufacture within ourselves !
Since, NOTHING good existed within us
when we were the old man, the change God
caused in us, came solely from the outside.
There is no possible way to change ourself-
The old man doesn't want to change-
The old man sees no need for change-
The old man lacks the ability to change,
fuirthermore knows not what to change into !
How could I possibly change myself, if I see
no reason to, don't want to, don't know what
the end-product or result should be, and
possess within myself no power to cause.
The old man is deaf, dumb, and blind to
all things spiritual, and is 100 % clueless.
Until God intervenes and reveals---nothing !
_____________________________
Effectus non excedit virtutem suae causae [the effect cannot exceed the power of its cause]
Grace may be free, but it may not be chosen...
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 7/5/2008 9:33:48 AM
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FreeGrace
Posts: 7881
Joined: 12/30/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: rwe2156
My theology resides in the tension of God Draws ------> Man Must Respond.
rw, your comment reminded me of something I just recently realized about the fact that God "draws". While the reformed will reject this, the Greek word "helkuo" is used in the Greek translation of the OT (Septuagint) as "woo" in several passages. So, it doesn't always mean "to drag" in a forceful way, as the reformed strongly insist.
That said, The drawing that God does is towards those who have responded to the truth that God has made evident to mankind from Romans 1. It is those who do recognize and reverence (honor) Him that seek Him, just as Cornelius clearly demonstrates and the reformed cannot explain. tdd even claims that Cornelius is a "mystery" to him.
The Bible promises that whoever seeks God will find Him. 2 Chron 15:2, Heb 11:6b, and the principle stated in Acts 17:27 that God created mankind so that he would seek for Him.
So, all who have responded to that evidence that God has given everyone will be given more evidence/information/revelation, whatever you want to call it.
Cornelius sought God. That is undeniably clear. He reverenced and prayed continually to Him. The result was that He found God. Since the reformed can see no evidence of God's "causal" actions in Acts 10, they (at least 1) conclude it's a mystery.
So, John 6:44 is clear: No one can come to Me, unless the Father who sent Me draws him". iow, those who have recognized and reverenced God and seek Him are drawn towards Christ. This makes perfect sense in the light of what Romans 1 says compared with the life of Cornelius, who has been presented as an example of how all this works out.
Was not Cornelius "drawn" to the gospel? In the sense of "woo", he cerrtainly was. But not in the sense of being dragged, as the reformed only think.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 7/5/2008 9:33:53 AM
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SureHope
Posts: 1621
Joined: 3/11/2007
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rwe,
quote:
The wise, the rich, the one who think they are righteous
will never find God until they repent.
Then God will reveal himself to them and their
hearts will be able to believe.
How can someone repent when they don't believe? How can someone turn from sin to God if they do not believe that God is the most valuable treasure - which is revealed in the gospel?
_____________________________
-Fix Your Hope Completely on the Grace to be Brought to You at the Revelation of Jesus Christ (1 Pet 1:13)
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 7/5/2008 9:38:50 AM
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Mannamuncher
Posts: 2920
Joined: 4/13/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: kelman
quote:
ORIGINAL: KingJamesBond
Matthew 11:25 (King James Version)
25At that time Jesus answered and said, I thank thee,
O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because
thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent,
and hast revealed them unto babes.
Now why would the Father hide things when He wants everybody to find?
Hide and seek? Isnt He supposed to make it equally easy on all people?
Why is He hiding things from one group and revealing to another?
Yep, that's exactly what Jesus says He does regardless of those insisting everyone must have a "chance".
This is God's mercy...this is His will.
I do not understand it, but I submit to God.
If this is His will , then I must obey, even though
there is a part of me that may wrinkle my brow in
confusion or disbelief, I remember what I was, and
I am thankful for my undeserved kindness & mercy.
This shouldn't have to be said, but, oh well...
No one celebrates the condemnation of the reprobate.
There is no spiritual smugness, because one was chosen
over another. These things are beyond our comprehension.
We obediently preach to ALL, knowing that amongst all are
the elect whosoevers, that are enabled by God to come.
_____________________________
Effectus non excedit virtutem suae causae [the effect cannot exceed the power of its cause]
Grace may be free, but it may not be chosen...
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 7/5/2008 9:42:41 AM
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Mannamuncher
Posts: 2920
Joined: 4/13/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: KingJamesBond
Odeliya,
quote:
This is worthy of more serious talk, i believe. KJB, brother i am happy to report that the version of FW you are criticizing, i and FG to name a few are also strongly against.
Every version of human free-will that has been preached in here stands on nothing but imagination.
So far it has been shown the human will has not been free from satan, free from God, free to choose at whim, free to choose opposite of what it chooses, free from a sin nature, free to turn to Jesus Christ, and the list goes on.
What exactly is this free-will able to do?
SIN !!!
That's what we did and what we excelled at !
For those who cling to the precious free-will:
What other areas are you able to exert influence
over and control that are governed by God ?
_____________________________
Effectus non excedit virtutem suae causae [the effect cannot exceed the power of its cause]
Grace may be free, but it may not be chosen...
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 7/5/2008 9:57:37 AM
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Mannamuncher
Posts: 2920
Joined: 4/13/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: KingJamesBond
FreeGrace,
quote:
You clearly don't understand what changing the mind is all about. No wonder you are not grasping the concept.
The only and real issue here is that mankind is free to change their mind. iow, no one "causes" or "forces" anyone to change their minds. In fact, it cannot be done.
Mind control 101.
Those who live according to the sinful nature have their minds set on what that nature desires; but those who live in accordance with the Spirit have their minds set on what the Spirit desires.
The mind of sinful man is death, but the mind controlled by the Spirit is life and peace; the sinful mind is hostile to God.
It does not submit to God's law, nor can it do so.
Those controlled by the sinful nature cannot please God.
You, however, are controlled not by the sinful nature but by the Spirit, if the Spirit of God lives in you.
And if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Christ.
If you do not have the Spirit in you controlling your mind that is fine with me.
I just do not know what to tell you.
KJB
Yeah, let's talk more about control of the freewill...
---how about hunger ?
---can you control your sleep ?
---in charge of rage, jealousy, and hate ?
---how about the wandering eye of man ?
---or any other urge or desire we posses ?
Can these by mastered by the freewill crowd ?
Aren't these within your sphere of influence ?
So, if you do these, it is because you "WILL" it ?
_____________________________
Effectus non excedit virtutem suae causae [the effect cannot exceed the power of its cause]
Grace may be free, but it may not be chosen...
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 7/5/2008 9:58:47 AM
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tdd1975
Posts: 417
Joined: 2/12/2008
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RWE
quote:
I continue to seek and repent and hope for the
continual transformation of my mind and life
that I experience because of Him.
Amen RWE,
These are wonderful things we seek for. I agree 100%.
Here is a problem though of why I can't get on the freewill train or the belief that repentance starts with man.
Jesus said
(John 15:5) I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.
The further along in my sanctification I get the more I feel the truth of this verse. That I am weak and He is strong.
If Christians cannot do anything apart from Christ (seek, repent, and transformation of mind and life), how much less can someone who doesn't even have Christ?
_____________________________
(Isaiah 33:17) Your eyes will behold the king in his beauty;
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 7/5/2008 11:18:26 AM
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KingJamesBond
Posts: 1678
Joined: 12/2/2006
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FreeGrace, rwe2156,
quote:
Is it God's will for us to sin?
If it is not God's will for us to sin, then how do we sin?
quote:
But, let me ask you this one question: when you are sinning, as we all do, exactly who is controlling your mind at that time?
rwe2156 has already claimed that God restrains evil. Scripture claims that is true so at least that is out of the way. I am in agreement. FreeGrace might debate it? 
The problem you both constantly try to solve is trying to distance God from sin. It is as if He was the cause of something sinful to happen you think He would be evil. Nothing is further from the truth. God is not sinful even if He causes things to take place.
Put that aside for right now and go with the "God restrains evil" thought pattern.
Yes it is true....God does restrain evil. It is obvious He does not restrain all evil because it is clear that we have evil in the world.
Even this thought pattern does not distance God from evil.
Lets say you have a policeman that is fully armed.
The policeman is sitting in his squad car and notices a brute man beating and raping a small helpless girl.
The policeman is armed and as such is more powerful than the brute man.
The policeman could very easily step in to prevent (restrain) the evil brute from beating and raping the small girl.......but the policeman just sits and does nothing at all.
Would both of you claim that the policeman is guilty or innocent for his lack of action?
How do you see God in that way?
If God has the power to restrain all evil, and He can see the little girl being beaten and raped by a brute, and He does nothing.....do you find God guilty or innocent?
If God has the power to restrain evil...and at times He does...isnt it up to Him if He restrains evil or not?
And if God does not restrain evil but could...isnt it that He decreed it to take place?
If He neither decreed it or permitted it, He would have restrained it and it would not take place.
It is obvious that God has decreed and ordained evil (His decreed will) and at the same time commands people not to do evil (His preceptive will).
And no, He is not guilty for the beating or the rape of the little girl even though one day both the brute man and the policemen will be held by God to account for both their action and in-action in the matter.
On another note;
There has got to be a sin that has forever out done all sins.
I dont know how any Christian could think that any other sinful event was more sinful than the crucifixion of Jesus Christ. It was blatant and outright sin performed by sinful human beings.
And yet....the hand of God was personally involved in this entire sinful act.
It is the will of God that men do not shed innocent blood. (His preceptive will)
It is the will of God that His innocent Son was to have His blood shed for many. (His decretive or decreed will)
His decretive will may ordain a certain event to take place even though His preceptive will as given in Scripture orders that the event should never occur.
There is nothing conflicting about that at all.
This is what is written about Jesus Christ in Isaiah 53;
10 Yet it was the LORD's will to crush him and cause him to suffer,
and though the LORD makes his life a guilt offering,
he will see his offspring and prolong his days,
and the will of the LORD will prosper in his hand.
That was actually written a few years before the event had taken place.
Jesus is known as the Lamb slain before the foundation of the world. This is because God had planned this event before He even made the world.
Most people would call that pre-meditated.
Since it was blatant murder, would you accuse God of pre-meditated murder? How is it you need to distance God from that? I dont.
Even if God planned the entire event and He brought it about to take place exactly as He planned by USING and DIRECTING sinful men to carry out His own plan....God is not evil.
No one will charge God with anything ever, and even if they did...so what...what would they do to Him?
God "willed" the execution of His Son while in another sense He "did not will" it because it was a sinful thing for people to do.
The kings of the earth take their stand and the rulers gather together against the Lord and against his Anointed One.
'Indeed Herod and Pontius Pilate met together with the Gentiles and the people of Israel in this city to conspire against your holy servant Jesus, whom you anointed.
They did what your power and will had decided beforehand should happen.
And;
Jesus of Nazareth was a man accredited by God to you by miracles, wonders and signs, which God did among you through him, as you yourselves know.
This man was handed over to you by God's set purpose and foreknowledge; and you, with the help of wicked men, put him to death by nailing him to the cross.
KJB
_____________________________
Thank God we don't get as much Government as we pay for! -Will Rogers
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 7/5/2008 12:59:40 PM
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KingJamesBond
Posts: 1678
Joined: 12/2/2006
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rwe2156,
quote:
Calvinism is forced to define foreknow to = foreordain,
and they box God into a one dimensional view of sovereignty,
whereby God aids and abets Satan in the orchestration of evil.
I, too, seek to understand it, and the only way I can understand
it is to choose to live in it, not camp out on one side or the other
a be content with throwing rocks at the "other side" as
some here are content to do (and are quite good at it, I might add).
Its real simple to me: If God is the cause of everything, God causes sin.
First of all I am not throwing rocks. Just to be clear on that.
The Calvinist has a thought pattern in regard to God being sovereign and in control of His creation.
It is very similar to the ancient Hebrew thought pattern.
Such a thought pattern looks at God as being personally involved in every specific and minute detail of His entire creation and not just a few or some things. Satan is not out of control and running around as if un-restrained. God controls Satan. Satan does nothing apart from the decreed will of God. Mankind is also not out of control running around doing anything that God has not willed to take place. Mankind like every other created thing is under the control of God.
Arminian thought pattern is more like God wound up His creation like a clock, gives creation freedom...and then stands back and watches as the spring unwinds.
When Arminians are confronted with the details of such a thought pattern they will then claim "God is in control of everything". They do this while at the same exact time they try to insinuate God does not control the wills, hearts, or minds of mere men. In reality it is men and woman that are responsible for most everything that takes place on this planet.
So if God does not control men...and satan has no power over men because men are free.....what is God actually in control of..........flora and fauna?
When further confrontation ensues, we find that Arminians feel God can control the minds or hearts of mankind but does not.
Usually the thought pattern constantly shifts back and forth from one idea to another.
In light of your own view on evil, how would you explain the following;
We both know that lying is sin and sin is evil.
The prophet Micaiah had a vision of a meeting involving heavenly council in the heavenly realm. In the vision, God asked who would go to entice Ahab into attacking Ramoth Gilead in which battle Ahab would be killed.
A "spirit" volunteered to be a "deceiving spirit in the mouth of all his [Ahab's] prophets".
God totally agreed to it and actually commanded the spirit to go.
The spirit went and did its job causing prophets to lie. Ahab listened to the voices of the LYING prophets and went forth in the battle where he was killed.
This was all planned out in the heavenly realm. That spirit was totally subject to the will of God. It could do nothing of its own will if God was to restrain it.
God ordained the prophets to lie and yet He does not approve of their sin. They will be blamed for lying and God is innocent even though He commanded the the spirit to go and cause them to lie.
Do you think the prophets had the option of choosing or willing to do other than lie with a powerful spirit affecting their wills?
Here is the text;
19 Micaiah continued, "Therefore hear the word of the LORD : I saw the LORD sitting on his throne with all the host of heaven standing around him on his right and on his left.
20 And the LORD said, 'Who will entice Ahab into attacking Ramoth Gilead and going to his death there?'
"One suggested this, and another that.
21 Finally, a spirit came forward, stood before the LORD and said, 'I will entice him.'
22 " 'By what means?' the LORD asked.
" 'I will go out and be a lying spirit in the mouths of all his prophets,' he said.
" 'You will succeed in enticing him,' said the LORD. 'Go and do it.'
23 "So now the LORD has put a lying spirit in the mouths of all these prophets of yours.
The LORD has decreed disaster for you."
It is not an issue we have to try and shake away or pretend does not exist in order to protect God and His reputation. His reputation is GOOD even if He sent evil spirits to every man woman and child on earth.
God is not evil. Evil men did the lying. The men were already evil.
quote:
KJB - why are you so emotional about this?
Why don't you look for yourself and see if man is able to repent.
Go sneak into the other camp and read their stuff with an open mind.
I have given you the Scriptures that say
God commands it, desires it, waits for us to do it, and rejoices when we do it.
I have read other stuff.
I am not any more or less emotional than anyone else is.
God commands people not to lie.
God also commanded a spirit to go and cause prophets to lie.
It is plain and true reality that you are going to have to deal with, and none of it is a contradiction.
And God is not evil.
KJB
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Thank God we don't get as much Government as we pay for! -Will Rogers
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 7/5/2008 5:32:16 PM
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john_mark
Posts: 525
Joined: 7/20/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: KingJamesBond
Lets say you have a policeman that is fully armed.
The policeman is sitting in his squad car and notices a brute man beating and raping a small helpless girl.
The policeman is armed and as such is more powerful than the brute man.
The policeman could very easily step in to prevent (restrain) the evil brute from beating and raping the small girl.......but the policeman just sits and does nothing at all.
Would both of you claim that the policeman is guilty or innocent for his lack of action?
How do you see God in that way?
if i could comment, this example doesnt seem to fit the picture of God that you are presenting. If God is the first cause of sin then in this scenario God would compel the brute to rape the girl while He watched and did nothing.
your example presents a view that the brute decided on his own to do evil and God chose not restrain him. your example shows the evil originating in the brute.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 7/5/2008 5:48:11 PM
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FreeGrace
Posts: 7881
Joined: 12/30/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: SureHope
rwe,
quote:
The wise, the rich, the one who think they are righteous
will never find God until they repent.
Then God will reveal himself to them and their
hearts will be able to believe.
How can someone repent when they don't believe? How can someone turn from sin to God if they do not believe that God is the most valuable treasure - which is revealed in the gospel?
The Bible gives Cornelius as an example of an unbeliever who turned to God before he believed the gospel. Unless you don't consider reverencing God and praying to Him continually as "turning to God". But I do.
So, we at least know that it is not only possible, but people actually do it.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 7/5/2008 5:53:32 PM
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FreeGrace
Posts: 7881
Joined: 12/30/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Mannamuncher
For those who cling to the precious free-will:
What other areas are you able to exert influence
over and control that are governed by God ?
How about Cornelius? Do you deny that when God sent an angel to him to tell him that his prayers had come up as a memorial before God and to send for Peter who would tell him words by which he would be saved, that wasn't an "influence"? If you do deny this, please elaborate as to why you do deny it.
Just like the rest of humanity, Cornelis could have either suppressed the truth that God has made evident to mankind per Rom 1 or as a result of what God made evident to him, recognized God and honored or reverenced Him.
Cornelius had a choice, as all of humanity does. When God does make evident "everything that is known about God" to each of us, we are faced with a choice. We can either suppress that evidence, as fools do when they say, there is no God. Or, like Cornelius, we can recognize God as Creator, and reverence Him and seek Him.
If you disagree with this, please explain why.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 7/5/2008 6:02:35 PM
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FreeGrace
Posts: 7881
Joined: 12/30/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Mannamuncher
quote:
ORIGINAL: KingJamesBond
I have no problem at all in being a puppet of my Master.
What more could a new man ever desire?
Sure beats the alternative KJB !!! (A dead, lifeless, useless, chunk of wood !)
Manna, Scripture doesn't even hint at the idea of puppets on a string. And the "alternative" to puppets isn't "dead lifeless, useless chunks of wood", as you assume, but a living human being free to express his love and devotion to his Savior.
What reformed theology cannot explain is how puppets sin since God is in complete control.
If puppet theology were correct, there would be no sin among puppets. But, contrary to the puppetry of reformed theology, all believers continue to sin.
So, maybe the fair question is this: if your sin didn't come from your Master, then who is pulling your strings when you sin?.
The dilemma is your claim that God is in complete control, and you are even comfortable with the puppet analogy. Yet, you continue to sin. So, either God is pulling your strings actually causing you to sin, or God isn't in complete control and someone else is pulling your strings.
So, which is it?
I hope one of the reformed will try to answer this
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 7/5/2008 6:07:39 PM
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FreeGrace
Posts: 7881
Joined: 12/30/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Mannamuncher
quote:
ORIGINAL: KingJamesBond
Let me put it to you straight.
I am under the control and power of God.
I do not remember telling you otherwise.
You liken it to being a puppet on a string or a robot.....and hey.....thats fine with me! 
Yeah, the puppet strings are our lifelines !
Again, when all of you reformed ones are sinning, who is pulling your strings? If God is your Master, then He is actively causing you to sin. And that idea is totally blasphemous, as James has pointed out that God cannot even tempt us to sin. So, you are faced with this very mysterious question: WHO IS PULLING YOUR STRINGS WHEN YOU SIN?
quote:
Sure, God can control me, who better to ?
Even when you are sinning?
quote:
Isn't that the job of The Holy Spirit ?
What, to cause you to sin?
quote:
Aren't all things working for my good ?
Do you think the sins that you commit are for your good?
quote:
And you say God is in control, and He is faithful to complete the work He began in me ?
Please explain who is pulling your strings when you sin.
quote:
I'm TOTALLY cool with that !!!
Are you TOTALLY cool with God pulling your strings when you sin? If He is, then none of your sins are your fault and He shouldn't be judging you for any of them. Is that your position here? 
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 7/5/2008 6:18:15 PM
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FreeGrace
Posts: 7881
Joined: 12/30/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Mannamuncher
Yeah, let's talk more about control of the freewill...
---how about hunger ?
---can you control your sleep ?
---in charge of rage, jealousy, and hate ?
---how about the wandering eye of man ?
---or any other urge or desire we posses ?
Can these by mastered by the freewill crowd ?
Aren't these within your sphere of influence ?
So, if you do these, it is because you "WILL" it ?
Manna, just like KJB, you are very confused as to what free will is all about. You unfortunately view free will as some ability to change your invironment by willing it to change. That would be magic, which free will isn't.
So, none of the things you mentioned above are relevant to the discussion, just as none of what KJB brings up is relevant.
Free will is only about choice between options. I know that puppets don't think, reason, or comprehend, but human beings created in the very image of God make independent decisions among the options available to them.
When you eat out, does anyone force certain foods down your throat? If so, you were not free to choose. But I suspect you choose what goes down your throat every time. That's free will.
When you get dressed on a day off from work, does someone force certain clothes on you? I suspect you choose what to wear every time. Maybe there is some gentle "suggestion" from the wife, but basically you are free to wear what you choose. That's free will.
When God makes evident to each of of us (as well as all of humanity) "everything that is known about God", as Romans 1 tells us, we have a choice to make. We can either suppress that truth, as fools do, and claim in our "foolish hearts" per Rom 1:21 that there is no God. Or, we can, like Cornelius, recognize God as Creator, and give Him reverence by praying to Him and seeking Him. That is free will.
I hope this is helpful in really understanding the issue of free will.
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