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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 7/4/2008 7:57:10 AM
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Mannamuncher
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quote:
ORIGINAL: rwe2156
We are saved by grace through faith, not mercy.
We are saved by God's work conditioned on repentance and faith.
rwe,
I really don't think you meant this ? Did you ?
Titus 3:5 (King James Version)
5Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;
Conditional salvation ???...hmm
Would you be kind enough to list these ?
What is salvation predicated upon ? Me ?
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"WHOSOEVER"are the elect-
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 7/4/2008 8:10:44 AM
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Mannamuncher
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quote:
ORIGINAL: rwe2156
quote:
ORIGINAL: Mannamuncher
Romans 11:25 (King James Version)
25For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery,
lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is
happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
And the context is..........??
rwe,
The meaning is clear and obvious.
There is an exact, full, number of Gentiles that are
predetermined to "COME". God knows what it is.
Just like when the Jews left Egypt, and not a hoof was
left behind, there is a number of people God choose
before the foundation of the world. Ephesians speaks
about this, as well as this passage. Do you agree ?
Otherwise, one has to believe God created the world
without plan, notion, or idea. He hastily threw all this
together to pass the time, and whatever happens is OK.
2 Thessalonians 2:13 (King James Version)
13But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you,
brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath
from the beginning chosen you to salvation through
sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 7/4/2008 8:25:21 AM
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Mannamuncher
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quote:
ORIGINAL: KingJamesBond
Romans 1 and 2 brought us to the conclusion of universal sin which is universal rebellion.
Being under sin is not a nice thing or a simple little boo boo........it is depravity.
It is the universal depravity of mankind.
I am wondering if anyone else on this thread looks at the text in Romans 1,2, and 3 the way you do?
I find it hard to believe that anyone would.
I dont think I have read or heard any commentary in my entire life that describes Romans 1, 2, and 3 the way you try to do.
KJB
KJB,
Jesus specifically verbalizes to Peter how God is known.
Jesus tells us how God can ONLY be known.
REVELATION from God, nothing within man.
Matthew 16:17 (King James Version)
17And Jesus answered and said unto him,
Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath
not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.
Matthew 11:25 (King James Version)
25At that time Jesus answered and said, I thank thee,
O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because
thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent,
and hast revealed them unto babes.
Matthew 11:27 (King James Version)
27All things are delivered unto me of my Father:
and no man knoweth the Son, but the Father;
neither knoweth any man the Father, save the Son,
and he to whomsoever the Son will reveal him.
John 1:18 (Amplified Bible)
18No man has ever seen God at any time; the only
unique Son, or the only begotten God, Who is in the bosom
[in the intimate presence] of the Father, He has declared Him
[He has revealed Him and brought Him out where He can be seen;
He has interpreted Him and He has made Him known].
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 7/4/2008 8:36:58 AM
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Mannamuncher
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quote:
ORIGINAL: john_mark
mannamuncher,
we talked about james 1
while i dont agree with calvin in a lot of areas seems that calvin agrees that God is not the author of sin.
care to comment?
JM,
I agree with what The Bible says !!!
I don't follow Spurgeon, Calvin, or Luther.
I was born into sin and became an expert sinner.
I sin because I am a sinner with a sin nature.
Totally depraved, 100 % reprobate, I possess
nothing good, noble, or holy in my carcass.
Romans 6 says, my members were slaves to
unrighteousness, b/c I am unrighteousness !
Bent away from God, in darkness, a child of the
devil, in league with hell, dead in trespasses.
I have no issues saying I am a SINNER !!!
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 7/4/2008 8:49:49 AM
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Mannamuncher
Posts: 2210
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quote:
ORIGINAL: rwe2156
quote:
ORIGINAL: Mannamuncher
Matthew 11:25-27 (King James Version)
25At that time Jesus answered and said, I thank thee, O Father,
Lord of heaven and earth, because thou hast hid these things
from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes.
26Even so, Father: for so it seemed good in thy sight.
27All things are delivered unto me of my Father: and no man
knoweth the Son, but the Father; neither knoweth any man the Father,
save the Son, and he to whomsoever the Son will reveal him.
Hey, its "authorized", so I knoweth thee must be right!! 
What about v. 28?
28"Come to me, all you who are weary and burdened, and I will give you rest.
29Take my yoke upon you and learn from me, for I am gentle and humble in
heart, and you will find rest for your souls.
30For my yoke is easy and my burden is light." (NIV)
rwe,
You can't embrace and declare verse 28
until the previous verses are digested fully !
---God hides Himself from some !
---And reveals Himself to others !
Isn't that amazing ?...God hides Himself !
How do you suppose one can locate Him ?
No one knows the directions or the place !
Where is the narrow road and strait gate ?
And then the kicker that is offensive to some-
neither knoweth any man the Father, save the
Son, and he to whomsoever the Son will reveal him.
WOW !!!
ONLY by Divine revelation can God be known !
No discovery by man, nothing in the heart of a
man that leads him to God, no imprinted idea
or thought that every man has, in order that
everyone gets a fair shake ! REVELATION !!!
That changes EVERYTHING, doesn't it ?
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"WHOSOEVER"are the elect-
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 7/4/2008 8:55:35 AM
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Mannamuncher
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quote:
ORIGINAL: rwe2156
quote:
ORIGINAL: SureHope
RWE: Why would God rejoice over something he caused a person to do?
SH: Because He rejoices in the manifestation of His work.
So the man he enables to be saved he delights. Great.
What about the ones he does not enable?
Oh, that's right, they get what they had coming to them.
Precisely !...all were under condemnation.
That's what we all deserve, correct ?
So, your issue is with the unsaved reprobate ?
Was he dealt with unfairly ? Is he falsely accused ?
Did God somehow do him an injustice by with-holding
His mercy from him ? No, God isn't obligated. Is He ?
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 7/4/2008 9:03:45 AM
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Mannamuncher
Posts: 2210
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quote:
ORIGINAL: rwe2156
Repentance starts with a realization of his condition.
Why do you think unregenerate man is completely spiritually dead?
He has no knowledge of God?
I am not so sure about this.
rwe,
How does this start...this repentance ?
What sets it in motion ? Man or God ?
What prompted and caused the change of heart ?
If internally in man, then why ONLY some ?
That certainly smacks of (s)election to me !
Some could change and some were unable to.
Sure looks like God equipped some to "change"
and others were left unable in their original state.
How and why does a man suddenly wake up ?
Nebuchandezzar came to his senses, but how ?
If you can awaken yourself, then teaches others !
You are responsible for awakening the reprobates...
What's your gameplan friend ?
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 7/4/2008 9:06:50 AM
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Mannamuncher
Posts: 2210
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quote:
ORIGINAL: rwe2156
quote:
ORIGINAL: Mattumanu
Is this how we give Glory to God? Some of the Glory goes to God,
and some of the Glory goes to man for his act of repentence?
Absolutely not.
God alone is glorified when the creature responds.
How about this instead ...?
God alone is glorified when
God causes the creature to resond !
Has a different flavor, huh ?
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 7/4/2008 9:11:26 AM
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Mannamuncher
Posts: 2210
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quote:
ORIGINAL: rwe2156
God's desire is for man to be redeemed, not condemned.
You don't believe this?
God doesn't say that or perform that.
If He did, then I would believe it.
Why do you believe this when God has not
expressed this as His purpose, and has not
taken measures to assure the completion of it ?
If Christ died for all...then all must be saved.
Christ died for some, and ALL of them are saved.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 7/4/2008 9:13:37 AM
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Mannamuncher
Posts: 2210
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quote:
ORIGINAL: tdd1975
quote:
Nice post...some would soften sin's impact, or minimize the effects of the fall. This is troubling ! If we could correct our missteps or adjust our malfunctions, or re-calibrate ourselves, Jesus would not have had to come to this awful place and leave His Heavenly throne. We were WITHOUT hope and without God. We were yet WITHOUT strength or power. Some, nearly with blasphemy, assert we simply need a minor "tweak" and not a complete overhaul. This isn't even a truncated version of the gospel...it's NOT the gospel.
Amen Manna,
The freewill version of the fall reminds me of the Dukes of Hazard theme song.
Just'a good ol' boys
Never meanin' no harm.
Beats all you never saw
Been in trouble with the law
Since the day they was born
They are really good boys. They don't mean no harm. It's not really their fault they get it wrong constantly. They'll figure it out one of these days.
Be careful !
I'm south of the mason-dixie line 
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 7/4/2008 9:16:09 AM
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Mannamuncher
Posts: 2210
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quote:
ORIGINAL: rwe2156
quote:
ORIGINAL: Mannamuncher
Would you have us believe their is a corner of the universe that operates
independently of God. Evil somehow created itself ? You must believe there
is a power greater than God. We know that is not true, so we can dismiss your
logic as fallacious and incoherent.
Evil is what God is not.
Evil exists as a "parallel universe" if you will.
Yes, God can control it. I know he can because he restrains it.
But God as the originator, orchestrator, and decreer of evil?
rwe,
Please explain evil's genesis !!!.......LOL
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 7/4/2008 9:20:18 AM
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FreeGrace
Posts: 6425
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Mannamuncher
quote:
ORIGINAL: rwe2156
We are saved by grace through faith, not mercy.
We are saved by God's work conditioned on repentance and faith.
rwe, I really don't think you meant this ? Did you ?
Why not, Manna? He knows Eph 2:8 very well.
quote:
Titus 3:5 (King James Version)
5Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;
Apparently you think Titus 3:5 says something different than Eph 2:8?
quote:
Conditional salvation ???...hmm
Would you be kind enough to list these ?
Salvation is conditioned on believing the gospel.
quote:
What is salvation predicated upon ? Me ?
Certainly not! It is predicated upon God's grace and given (granted) to those who believe. Are you able to grasp what I'm saying?
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 7/4/2008 9:22:08 AM
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tdd1975
Posts: 302
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quote:
if one were to say that spiritually dead people can know about God but wont choose Him, that would seem inline with scripture.
I agree. I believe the spiritually dead's inability is based on their unwillingness.
quote:
even to say that spiritually dead people while having knowledge of who God is, they cannot in and of themselves choose Him, i could begin to understand. but many times the spiritually dead are portrayed as completely incapable of any understanding of God whatsoever, and that doesnt seem inline with scripture .
Perhaps we aren't that far apart in our beliefs.
quote:
to answer your question they were spiritually ignorant, no i have to correct that, they were defiant against a God they knew. to me it is more damning to turn against the truth that God reveals and the ability they had than to say that one who is spiritually dead has no understanding of God and therefore cannot choose Him.
What I mean by ignorant (foolish would probably be a better word). Take Felix for example.
(Acts 24:22) And when Felix heard these things, having more perfect knowledge of that way, he deferred them, and said, When Lysias the chief captain shall come down, I will know the uttmost of your matter.
(Acts 24:23) And he commanded a centurion to keep Paul, and to let him have liberty, and that he should forbid none of his acquaintance to minister or come unto him.
(Acts 24:24) And after certain days, when Felix came with his wife Drusilla, which was a Jewess, he sent for Paul, and heard him concerning the faith in Christ.
(Acts 24:25) And as he reasoned of righteousness, temperance, and judgment to come, Felix trembled, and answered, Go thy way for this time; when I have a convenient season, I will call for thee.
(Acts 24:26) He hoped also that money should have been given him of Paul, that he might loose him: wherefore he sent for him the more often, and communed with him.
(Acts 24:27) But after two years Porcius Festus came into Felix' room: and Felix, willing to show the Jews a pleasure, left Paul bound.
We see from verse 22 that he was able to know the way.
From verse 24 he was interested enough to send for Paul to hear more.
And evidently from verse 25 he believed Paul concerning the judgment to come because he trembled.
So we have here a man who is able to understand the way and tremble at the coming judgment and still refuse to repent.
That is the foolishness of it.
He chose the pleasure of sin for a season over eternal joy with Christ.
It is as if he couldn't see or was blinded to the worth, beauty, and treasure that Christ is in order to give up his sin.
It is absolute insanity.
Anyway that is what I meant by spiritual ignorance. Not that they didn't have any knowledge whatsoever.
We may not agree but I will say that you are a gentleman to debate with.
_____________________________
(John 8:11) Neither do I condemn thee: go, and sin no more.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 7/4/2008 9:24:13 AM
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FreeGrace
Posts: 6425
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Mannamuncher
2 Thessalonians 2:13 (King James Version) 13But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:
There it is for you, Manna. I highlighted for emphasis how God chooses people for salvation. Same principle is found in John 6:40.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 7/4/2008 9:25:41 AM
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Mannamuncher
Posts: 2210
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quote:
ORIGINAL: rwe2156
quote:
ORIGINAL: Mannamuncher
We are dust, jars of clay., incapable and unable TO DO ANYTHING BUT SIN !!!
God can make all the demands He wants---He is God. So what if man believes God
requests the impossible ? The reason God puts us in impossible predicaments, is so
that when He delivers us, He gets ALL the credit, all the glory and honor, and all the
recognition. The angels may rejoice, but it is ALL God-ward. Only a fool would believe
the angels are cheering for man.
Gee whiz, Manna, all I am asking you do to is recognize the fact
that man is capable of understanding his condition and status before God.
OK rwe !
Man has diagnosed his sin problem...
Does he even care if it's fixed ?
Has the awakened sinner developed a holy fear
of God and understand his own unrighteousness,
and the certain peril of eternal condemnation ?
No, he has only mentally grasped a concept , and has
no clue as to the peripheral and tangential calamities.
How many people say they know God exists, but don't
care about hell ? Let's party with all my friends !!!
Or, they sadly say they prefer an eternity apart from God.
Knowing your state, but not fully comprehending all the
gravity of eternity b/c of ignorance, still results in hell.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 7/4/2008 9:26:33 AM
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FreeGrace
Posts: 6425
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Mannamuncher
I don't follow Spurgeon, Calvin, or Luther.
Then why do you call yourself a calvinist? Or is your "form" of reformed theology somehow different from the other calvinists? If so, please elaborate.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 7/4/2008 9:35:11 AM
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FreeGrace
Posts: 6425
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Mannamuncher
quote:
ORIGINAL: rwe2156
quote:
ORIGINAL: Mannamuncher
Matthew 11:25-27 (King James Version)
25At that time Jesus answered and said, I thank thee, O Father,
Lord of heaven and earth, because thou hast hid these things
from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes.
26Even so, Father: for so it seemed good in thy sight.
27All things are delivered unto me of my Father: and no man
knoweth the Son, but the Father; neither knoweth any man the Father,
save the Son, and he to whomsoever the Son will reveal him.
Hey, its "authorized", so I knoweth thee must be right!!
What about v. 28?
28"Come to me, all you who are weary and burdened, and I will give you rest.
29Take my yoke upon you and learn from me, for I am gentle and humble in
heart, and you will find rest for your souls.
30For my yoke is easy and my burden is light." (NIV)
rwe, You can't embrace and declare verse 28 until the previous verses are digested fully !
---God hides Himself from some !
---And reveals Himself to others !
Isn't that amazing ?...God hides Himself !
There is no mystery, or amazement, Manna. Romans 1 has told us that those who suppress the truth of His evidence that He has made known to mankind are "given over to their own lusts". That means He gives no further evidence. Cornelius demonstrates beautifully how God reveals Himself to others. Cornelius was seeking God, and the Scripture promises that those who seek Him will find Him. Simple. Grace.
quote:
How do you suppose one can locate Him ?
By seeking Him, according to 2 Chron 15:2, Heb 11:6b and the principle is found in Acts 17:27.
quote:
No one knows the directions or the place !
Right. And because Cornelius was seeking the directions, God GRANTED him those directions by sending Peter with the gospel.
Do you want to disagree with this statement?
quote:
Where is the narrow road and strait gate ?
God only gives directions to those who have recognized and reverenced Him, like Cornelius. Those who have suppressed the truth of what He has made evident to mankind aren't looking for it.
quote:
ONLY by Divine revelation can God be known !
What Romans 1 refers to as the evidence that God has made known to mankind actually IS DIVINE REVELATION. Do you disagree? Why?
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 7/4/2008 9:40:03 AM
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FreeGrace
Posts: 6425
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Mannamuncher
quote:
ORIGINAL: rwe2156
quote:
ORIGINAL: Mannamuncher
We are dust, jars of clay., incapable and unable TO DO ANYTHING BUT SIN !!!
God can make all the demands He wants---He is God. So what if man believes God
requests the impossible ? The reason God puts us in impossible predicaments, is so
that when He delivers us, He gets ALL the credit, all the glory and honor, and all the
recognition. The angels may rejoice, but it is ALL God-ward. Only a fool would believe
the angels are cheering for man.
Gee whiz, Manna, all I am asking you do to is recognize the fact
that man is capable of understanding his condition and status before God.
OK rwe !
Man has diagnosed his sin problem...
Does he even care if it's fixed ?
The only issue is that what does man do with the evidence that Had mas made evident to mankind regarding Himself. He will either recognize that evidence, and therefore God as Creator, or he will suppress the truth of that evidence. Some will recognize God as Creator, but fail to reverence Him.
Some, like Cornelius, both recognized God as Creator, and reverenced Him and sought Him through prayer. Do you disagree with this?
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 7/4/2008 10:02:19 AM
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FolkSingerBlues
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I know that there is a huge debate about the concept of "freewill". On one side people seem to argue that we are free to do as we want and decisions are up to us. The other seems to argue that God's "sovereignty" has already determined what our actions were.
My question is this:
What decisions can we make that God has not given us the parameters to make such decisions?
After all there is nothing that we can decide to do that goes beyond what God has allowed our choices to be.
It would seem to me that God is sovereign over the parameters he offers and has provided that we can make choices within them.
Is it possible that God, in His sovereignty, revealed His sovereign decision for us to know?
This would put "sovereignty" in a category of "management of souls and the creation" as opposed to "micro management".
This would not take the sovereignty of God away, and it would mean that our "freewill" is more a list of "multiple choice" rather than "fill in the blank".
I'm seeking understanding on this debate.
_____________________________
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Proof texting is a very dangerous thing...If we were given the Scriptures it was to humble us into realizing God is right and the rest of us are just guessing.
-Rich Mullins
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 7/4/2008 10:18:12 AM
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john_mark
Posts: 491
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Mannamuncher
I have no issues saying I am a SINNER !!!
i understand and i am not taking issue with that. but when you sin is God the first cause of/or ordain your sin or are you the first cause? james 1 seems to place the sinner as the first cause.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 7/4/2008 12:19:03 PM
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KingJamesBond
Posts: 1261
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rwe2156,
quote:
Please tell me how a personal decision can be a decision when it has already been decided?
I have a better idea.
Lets just get this all over with as you demonstrate this special ability you say everybody has.
How about we try an exercise of pure futility?
Why dont you instantly decide to hate Jesus Christ.
You are the one that keeps telling me that people are able to choose freely one way or another.....prove it!
Demonstrate it!
Lets see if you are capable of freely switching your choice as you make opposite decisions in an instant like you seem to think other people can do.
You claim that all people have this ability to freely choose one way or another like they are switching a channel on the TV or something.
Well, maybe you do have that ability?......I dont!
It is obvious you dont speak for me and therefore this abilty does not include all people.
While you go through your day today, why dont you just instantly switch back and forth all day long as you practice this special ability to freely choose like you say you can.
Freely choose to hate Jesus, love Jesus, hate Jesus, love Jesus, hate Jesus, love Jesus......just do it as fast as you can freely choose to do it!
You should be able to choose opposite ways every minute I suppose.
One minute choose to love Jesus Christ...and the next minute choose to hate Him.
I am sure it will be so easy for you to demonstrate this special ability you have. 
I cant even do that with my eldest son......it just seems I choose to love him all the time!
I cant choose to hate him........whats up with that?
Its like something holds me in this bondage of only wanting to love my son.
Now, after you freely make choices for several hours showing us how easy it is for you to decide and hate what you really love......and decide to love what you really hate.....let us all know on this forum of how easy it was to will what you just cant will!
What else do you hate?
How about we work with food?
In Thailand they eat big juicy bugs.
Why dont you load up a gigantic bowel full of big green juicy mushy grub worms as big as your thumb.
As you sit there exercising this special ability you have to choose to hate and love things freely.....just gob down those gushy grubs one at a time!
The first grub you can freely make a decision and choose to hate the taste. The second grub you can freely decide to choose to love the taste. The third you can freely choose to hate the taste. The fourth you can freely choose to love the taste........and so on and so on.
I am sure all of this is real easy for one such as you who has so much control over his will! LOL
Why is it you keep thinking other people have the abilty to love what they clearly hate?
People are not free to love what they hate. Cant you see that?
quote:
No, you don't really believe that, do you, KJB?
What you really believe is Bondage of the Will, don't you?
I believe that people make decisions in accordance with their will.
If their will is held captive by satan they will make decisions based on what holds them captive.
If their wills are held captive by God.....they will make decisions based on such captivity.
You constantly reject the Scripture I provided so your theology rests on imagination rather than sound Scripture and reality.
if perhaps God may grant them repentance leading to the knowledge of the truth, and they may come to their senses and escape from the snare of the devil, having been held captive by him to do his will.
If people are held captive by satan in opposition to Timothy it is because Timothy was preaching the Word of God.
quote:
The truth is in your world man is NOT truly free to make a decision.
Well, are you free to make a decision that big gushy grubs are yummy, or are you kind of BOUND another way and cant choose to decide that they are yummy?
And if you are BOUND to decide big gushy grubs are not yummy.....are you able to freely decide exactly the opposite and say grubs are yummy?
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God gave us a mind and the ability to think and reason - for what?
For repenting and understanding the gospel, amongst other things.
What do you want me to do.....stand in awe of your mind?......stand in awe of my mind?
I am not going to do it.
You keep preaching your human mind and will but it dont do nothing for me at all. If you think it is your mind that enlightens you then you are mistaken.
Brothers, think of what you were when you were called. Not many of you were wise by human standards; not many were influential; not many were of noble birth. But God chose the foolish things of the world to shame the wise; God chose the weak things of the world to shame the strong. He chose the lowly things of this world and the despised things—and the things that are not—to nullify the things that are, so that no one may boast before him. It is because of him that you are in Christ Jesus, who has become for us wisdom from God—that is, our righteousness, holiness and redemption.
You cant seem to give up on the preaching of yourself when clearly it is because of Him that you are in Jesus Christ.
Preaching about God and His wonderful work in saving a rotten scoundrel like me is not preaching about my mind or will......it is preaching the Savior.
Take care.
I will try to get to the rest of your post when I can.
KJB
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"The natural man receives not the things of the spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned."
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 7/4/2008 12:24:55 PM
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KingJamesBond
Posts: 1261
Joined: 12/2/2006
Status: online
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rwe2156,
By the way.....the same exercise of futility can be done with things you love.
You may love Rocky Road ice cream.
How are you going to freely choose to hate it if you love it?
You cant freely choose opposites like that.
Do you see the point?
You cant expect people to turn to Jesus Christ if they are un-willing to do so.
Something has to make a change in them and it is not the human mind.
The human mind may be changed but it is by God.
Take care,
KJB
_____________________________
"The natural man receives not the things of the spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned."
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 7/4/2008 1:47:58 PM
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FreeGrace
Posts: 6425
Joined: 12/30/2005
Status: online
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quote:
ORIGINAL: FolkSingerBlues
I know that there is a huge debate about the concept of "freewill". On one side people seem to argue that we are free to do as we want and decisions are up to us. The other seems to argue that God's "sovereignty" has already determined what our actions were.
My question is this:
What decisions can we make that God has not given us the parameters to make such decisions?
Clearly God placed us directly into our "surroundings", so that all of our choices fall within those parameters. We see this in Acts 17:26:
and He made from one (Adam), every nation of mankind to live on the face of the earth, having determined their appointed times, and the boundaries of their habitation.
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After all there is nothing that we can decide to do that goes beyond what God has allowed our choices to be.
Yes. But still, all of us face actual choices within our "boundaries".
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It would seem to me that God is sovereign over the parameters he offers and has provided that we can make choices within them.
There is no reason to think otherwise. 
Having said that, I think it is important to know that regardless of each person's boundaries, all men are faced with the choice/decision to recognize God or suppress that truth, from Romans 1. Some will recognize and seek God. And Scripture promises that they will find Him, per 2Chron 15:2, Heb 11:6b and Acts 17:27.
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Is it possible that God, in His sovereignty, revealed His sovereign decision for us to know?
I believe His Word is the revealed plan of God. We can know His sovereign decision. It is God's will to give eternal life to whosoever believes in His Son, per John 6:40.
quote:
This would put "sovereignty" in a category of "management of souls and the creation" as opposed to "micro management".
This would not take the sovereignty of God away, and it would mean that our "freewill" is more a list of "multiple choice" rather than "fill in the blank".
I'm seeking understanding on this debate.
You've asked good questions. Hope my answers helped.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 7/4/2008 1:52:16 PM
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FreeGrace
Posts: 6425
Joined: 12/30/2005
Status: online
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quote:
ORIGINAL: john_mark
quote:
ORIGINAL: Mannamuncher
I have no issues saying I am a SINNER !!!
i understand and i am not taking issue with that. but when you sin is God the first cause of/or ordain your sin or are you the first cause? james 1 seems to place the sinner as the first cause.
j_m, those who do not believe that mankind has a free will cannot accept that the "first cause" of everything, including sin, comes from God.
But, your observation from James is correct. The first cause of our sin is our choice to sin. When our will "wills" to sin, that is the first cause. But, one has to understand and accept the concept of free choice/free will to accept this.
The fact that God has already known each and every sin we will commit doesn't make Him the first cause of it.
And creating mankind who freely chooses the sins they commit doesn't make Him the first cause of any sin either.
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