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RE: Question for SAHM or Dads - 8/29/2007 10:53:14 AM
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operalady
Posts: 90
Joined: 8/14/2007
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I look to Proverbs 31!!!
That woman, she loved and took care of her husband and her children, then her home. She was in the home to take care of them...
but, she also had a job and was in the market place, managed people in her "employ".
So, I teach my daughters, that yes, we think being home with children is important, but so is a career! But we also teach them to keep priorities...God, husband, children, home, church, business, community.
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RE: Question for SAHM or Dads - 8/29/2007 12:08:55 PM
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Consecrated2God
Posts: 5167
Joined: 4/4/2005
From: Jesus Land
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quote:
So, I teach my daughters, that yes, we think being home with children is important, but so is a career! But we also teach them to keep priorities...God, husband, children, home, church, business, community.
I'd modify that a bit to say so is your calling instead of so is a career. I believe that all of us are given a mission by God that we need to fulful, and we need to carefully seek that. Not everyone is called to have a career. There are many good things out there to do, but we need to do what God has called us to do.
_____________________________
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RE: Question for SAHM or Dads - 8/29/2007 2:28:48 PM
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10SNE1?
Posts: 196
Joined: 4/19/2005
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I stayed home for 20 years and recently accepted a part-time job. Our youngest is 16 (daughter), two ( one daughter, one son) are in college and one( daughter) has an advanced degree, is married and working.
We encouraged and assumed that all four of our children would continue their educations beyond high school. So far, the three older ones have. We firmly believe that higher education is a good and necessary thing for those with the ability to meet that goal. Our children fall into that category in both skill and resources. We are a "when you go to college" family, not a "if you go" family.
We have modeled parenting as a priority to all four of our children. We have put them first in every decision, not just assuming that "mom at home" is the end-all and be-all of good Christian family life.
We have never "told" our dds that they should be SAHMs and we have never "told" our son that he should marry a woman who plans to be. Our kids KNOW how it feels to be the most important priority in the lives of their parents and we trust that they will carry that with them into their parenting days.
We are not foolish or arrogant enough to assume to know exactly the story which God has scripted for each of their lives. We simply pray and trust that they will seek Him, hear His voice and follow to the best of their ability.
To have already decided, when you children are young, that you will be "disappointed" if your adult child doesn't not create a family with the same dynamics as yours is a very dangerous path to start down. I know more than one set of lonely empty-nesters who have feathered their own nest with a judgemental attitude toward the choices made by adult children and their spouses.
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RE: Question for SAHM or Dads - 8/29/2007 4:35:44 PM
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clag4christ
Posts: 2898
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: We just moved to the big state of Texas!
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quote:
To have already decided, when you children are young, that you will be "disappointed" if your adult child doesn't not create a family with the same dynamics as yours is a very dangerous path to start down.
Well...if the Lord so blesses my daughters with children then their 'calling' at that time is/should be to stay at home with them, regardless of the 'sacrifice' to them, for the betterment of their babies and family. I think it's quite relativistic to say that though the Lord blesses a couple with children that neither parent thinks that it's his/her calling is to stay at home, but rather that he/she is called to be elsewhere for the majority of the day, neglecting his/her true responsibility. If the Lord blesses you with a child, then He's called you to be home. Period.
_____________________________
<-----My fabulous Joel & me in Scotland
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RE: Question for SAHM or Dads - 8/29/2007 5:28:30 PM
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shadowspring
Posts: 1612
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Perhaps she meant to use the word "roles" rather than dynamics? You know, the role of stay-at-home parent vs. the role of breadwinner.
But I like what 3capps wrote about values.
It is our value that children are worth more than gold, and also that time spent with them is worth more than time spent anywhere else.
We feel so strongly about this that we started praying for a way for Dad to be home more as well, and now he telecommutes over half the time. We are both very grateful to God for this gift.
So, you see, caring for and raising our own children is a cherished family value for us.
I would be disappointed if my children rejected any of my most treasured values, though I don't see anything at all "dangerous" about experiencing disappointment. I would also be disappointed if they walked away from Christ, sought or pressured someone else to have an abortion, chose a life of crime, became drug addicts... there are a lot of choices they could make that would totally disappoint me.
But I will NEVER stop loving them or kick them out of my heart! There is no danger of that ever happening.
_____________________________
"Blessed is the man...whose delight is in the law of the Lord, and in His law meditates day and night. He will be like a tree planted by rivers of water..." from Psalm 1
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RE: Question for SAHM or Dads - 8/29/2007 11:25:46 PM
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msms3
Posts: 2
Joined: 1/20/2006
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quote:
I think it is a mistake to compare the Prov. 31 woman with a modern day CEO or even manager.
Why?
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RE: Question for SAHM or Dads - 8/30/2007 7:39:56 AM
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Sideways
Posts: 3271
Joined: 4/12/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: 3cappuccinosmom
quote:
I think it is a mistake to compare the Prov. 31 woman with a modern day CEO or even manager.
quote:
Why?
Because she wasn't one. Because "working woman" in her era looked nothing like "working woman" of this era. Because her work almost certainly didn't involve dropping her children off at daycare and communting 1 hour each way and working 8-10 hours ever day.
Well, nobody in the Biblical era did that. Biblical moms didn't get on the internet either to post messages in forums, yet here we are.
While the Bible cannot often be directly applied to modern day due to cultural differences, I do believe that Biblical principles are always applicable. So, the principle that I take from the Proverbs 31 women, was that she did indeed use her skills and talents to the make a financial profit, but her family was always well cared for, and they were her first priority - whether she "out considering a field and buying it" or not.
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RE: Question for SAHM or Dads - 8/30/2007 9:32:50 AM
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kernsfamily
Posts: 1312
Joined: 4/26/2006
From: Dallas (originally Detroit)
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quote:
ORIGINAL: 10SNE1?
To have already decided, when you children are young, that you will be "disappointed" if your adult child doesn't not create a family with the same dynamics as yours is a very dangerous path to start down. I know more than one set of lonely empty-nesters who have feathered their own nest with a judgemental attitude toward the choices made by adult children and their spouses.
Absolutely...good points....there was a HUGE rift between my wife and her parents because of our prayerful decision to allow our children to attend our neighborhood school, and not homeschool (after careful consideration over ALL the possibilities)....now, it's "over", it took a while, but, her parents finally opened their eyes to realize we made a good decision...because we followed God's lead, not her parents. Now, they are "big fans" of our school......Hopefully I, as a parent, won't assume that I automatically know what God's plan is for their lives....sure, i'll guide them to help them see God's will...but, that's for them to prayerfully consider. Not for me to "dictate"....
_____________________________
Proud dad of 3 great girls....Erin, Emilie and Elise
Blessed to have all of them in a "totally awesome" public elementary school!
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RE: Question for SAHM or Dads - 8/30/2007 9:58:57 AM
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kernsfamily
Posts: 1312
Joined: 4/26/2006
From: Dallas (originally Detroit)
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Sideways
quote:
ORIGINAL: 3cappuccinosmom
quote:
I think it is a mistake to compare the Prov. 31 woman with a modern day CEO or even manager.
quote:
Why?
Because she wasn't one. Because "working woman" in her era looked nothing like "working woman" of this era. Because her work almost certainly didn't involve dropping her children off at daycare and communting 1 hour each way and working 8-10 hours ever day.
Well, nobody in the Biblical era did that. Biblical moms didn't get on the internet either to post messages in forums, yet here we are.
Proverbs 31 woman?
Personally, Iam a Deuteronomy 21:18 AND Leviticus 20:9 man...
< Message edited by kernsfamily -- 8/30/2007 10:27:59 AM >
_____________________________
Proud dad of 3 great girls....Erin, Emilie and Elise
Blessed to have all of them in a "totally awesome" public elementary school!
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RE: Question for SAHM or Dads - 8/30/2007 10:24:06 AM
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Bro_Shane
Posts: 1084
Joined: 8/4/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: 3cappuccinosmom
quote:
but, she also had a job and was in the market place, managed people in her "employ".
I think it is a mistake to compare the Prov. 31 woman with a modern day CEO or even manager. It is very unlikely that she left home and family for 8-10 hours every day in a business suit with a briefcase.
Not if you know the custom and culture.
What I find amazing is that so many people use the Proverbs 31 woman to justify being a SAHM and not working outside the home to the point of saying women who work or work outside the home are sinning (not directing this at you 3cap, just making a general observation) when the reality was that she probably spent most of time overseeing the running of the household which meant making sure livestock were fed, groomed, cleaned; fabrics were being woven and upholstery was being repaired; food was being prepared and stored (also according to dietary laws); property was being maintained; and all this as she bought and sold land and the fruit of the labor of her household, which would include servants ans slaves.
The simple fact of the matter is that the Proverbs 31 woman probably had servants to watch after her children as she worked and conducted business. If anyone doubts this, read it carefully then read a little history.
I'm not knocking SAHMs or WAHMs at all. I feel it is a personal choice as to what a woman does and she should seek the will of God when she does so. But, frankly, I'm just a little tired of seeing Proverbs 31 being used as a cudgel with which to flog women who work outside the home (even to the point of saying they sin by doing so, at times) when the usual SAHM bears little to no resemblance to the woman in Proverbs 31.
_____________________________
Prayer is not where we change God's mind, it is where He changes ours.
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RE: Question for SAHM or Dads - 8/30/2007 1:05:48 PM
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shadowspring
Posts: 1612
Joined: 5/27/2006
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Hmm, I'm not sure why you would say the usual stay-at-home looks nothing like the Prov 31 woman. Because we don't farm? Or because we buy our clothes already put together instead of spinning, weaving, and sewing them ourselves?
Even if the woman referred to in Prov 31 had servants to help with her household (including watching the kids) it is pretty clear from history that she was primarily on-site running the family household. I know a lot of SAHMs who are always busy about their family's business, in home and out of the home, paying the bills, doing the shopping, always on the lookout for a good investment or money making opportunity. In fact, other than a mom clinically depressed, I don't know any that are not productive in the way the spend their time and resources.
Obviously, every family will have it's own division of labor. I have a good friend who is an excellent business person, but not much of a nurturer herself. Her dh works the part-time schedule, packs the lunches, is home when the kids get home from school, and works close enough to the house and with a flexible situation that he can pick up the kids if they are sick, take them to appts. etc. They are a godly Christian family, and this works very well for them.
Back when she was a single parent, my friend relied on me to help her by taking kids to appts., picking them up from school, etc. She appreciates my strong calling to be home and to teach my own. She knows I not only take care of our family business, but have time to help out in the community and be a blessing to her because of who I am. She had never once dissed me ever or implied that I fail the Prov 31 test by choosing the path of SAHM.
It is more my feminist convictions than anything else that leads me to teach my daughter to shoot for nothing less than having it all! Motherhood, pregnancy and nursing are entirely feminine provinces. I don't want to give up a second of it, and I have taught my daughter to relish every moment if she gets the chance herself. Money can never make up for missing out on those moments.
Now if those moments aren't enjoyable to you, if nursing seems to take forever because you hate sitting still for twenty minutes, or if you hate housework with a burning passion but ablsolutely LOVE sales or accounting, please don't attempt a career as a SAHM! It would not appear to be your calling. Some women enjoy leaving their children in the care of others while they join the workforce. I would feel robbed.
We are just made of different stuff. You might say we have different callings. I don't know how you would want to put it.
But the question was, would I be disappointed if my dd did not choose to be a SAHM if she becomes a mother, and the answer to that is still yes. And I would be disappointed if she doesn't home school too, but that's also because I would feel cheated if I could not hs myself.
What I can't fathom is why anyone would calling dealing with disappointment "dangerous"! If you have not yet learned to deal with disappointment, yours and others, you are either very young or very immature or both. It's part of life. And part of relationships everywhere. In all cultures. In all countries. In all families.
This is where patience and forbearance and forgiveness come in. 
There is no perfect family. Not even our beloved Christian families themselves can make that claim. I guarantee there will be conflict, disapointment, perhaps anger and even disillusionment ahead for all of us.
Hopefully as Christian families there will also be reconciliation, forgiveness, humility and a willingness to "in honor prefer one another" above ourselves as we live and grow together in the years and generations to come.
_____________________________
"Blessed is the man...whose delight is in the law of the Lord, and in His law meditates day and night. He will be like a tree planted by rivers of water..." from Psalm 1
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RE: Question for SAHM or Dads - 8/30/2007 1:33:41 PM
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PrudentWife
Posts: 1429
Joined: 1/25/2006
From: The Promised Land
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I think it's silly to insinuate that women with grown children who return to work don't have their role as wife and homemaker their first priority. A godly wife is responsible for guiding & keeping the house. Where does it say in the Bible that means she must be IN the house all day? What if it's possible for a woman to guide and keep her house, keep her wifely duties at forefront, and still work?
And as to parents neglecting teenagers by not being home all the time...In Bible times, teenagers were young adults, not children. Teenagers were not at home, getting schooled by mom or dad. They were out working. Sometimes directly with their parents, often not. David was all by himself as a young teen tending the sheep. Cain & Able had very different jobs, and Adam couldn't be in 2 places at one time. They were probably without parental supervision a lot of the time too. Teens would sometimes spend days away from their parents tending to livestock.
Also, the Proverbs 31 woman could not possibly be in the house all day if she is considering fields and buying them, she can't be home if she is selling linen and delivering girdles to merchants, planting vineyards, seeking food from far away, overseeing maidservants, etc. I simply cannot see the difference between the Pro 31 woman being very occupied in commerce outside the home and a 2007 woman having a job.
Isn't the heart of what is being taught in Pro 31 that the woman is very diligent and industrious, takes wonderful care of her family, and her efforts lead to profit?
I think those opposed to women ever working outside of the home think we all are going to be high powered executives who travel, work 12 hours a day, and are unaccessable by our husbands. There is a huge middle ground between that and being a complete SAHW with no outside job. There are countless jobs where a wife can work part time, flexible hours, or no overtime, etc and still take care of a house.
Before my child was born, I worked 50+ hours per week. My house was always clean (even cleaner than now that I have kids), dinner was always made, the shopping and errands were done, clothes were always clean and ready, and I never had to ask my husband to help. I was able to successfully guide & keep the house, because I knew that was my role and not my husbands, and I worked too.
It's not about 'having it all'. It's about maximizing the talents and time God has given you. For me, if I was at home with no children, I wouldn't have enough to do and I would be 'eating the bread of idleness.' And that would be opposite of modeling my life after Pro 31.
_____________________________
 Mooing for 25 consecutive months and counting
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RE: Question for SAHM or Dads - 8/30/2007 2:09:33 PM
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10SNE1?
Posts: 196
Joined: 4/19/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: shadowspring
But the question was, would I be disappointed if my dd did not choose to be a SAHM if she becomes a mother, and the answer to that is still yes. And I would be disappointed if she doesn't home school too, but that's also because I would feel cheated if I could not hs myself.
What I can't fathom is why anyone would calling dealing with disappointment "dangerous"! If you have not yet learned to deal with disappointment, yours and others, you are either very young or very immature or both. It's part of life. And part of relationships everywhere. In all cultures. In all countries. In all families.
My point wasn't that it is dangerous to deal with disappointment. My point is that it is dangerous to assume "ownership" of the life choices of adult children. I might be "disappointed" that my oldest dd and her husband need to live six hours away while he finishes seminary. But my disappointment is simply my own sadness at not seeing her as much. It isn't about her " not being in God's will" because they are not making the same choice that dh and I made. Somewhere along the line my husband and I made a fairly unconscience decision that we would, if at all humanly possible, not move more than a certain driving distance from our parents. It seemed like the right thing to do, both to honor them and care for them as they aged as well as to insure that our children had a chance to know their grandparents. I suppose I could make a good case for that being God's will because He obviously laid that on our hearts and has, so far, worked out the details for us to stay fairly close to our parents and still provide for our family.
IF my dd and SIL asked, I would share with them our reasons and our conviction that it was the right decision. However, even though God's Word is clear on honoring one's parents, I would never presume to tell my adult children ( any of you, for that matter) that they are out of the will of God on this issue because they have "selfishly decided to put their own wants first" 
That, imo, IS a dangerous path.
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RE: Question for SAHM or Dads - 8/30/2007 2:30:07 PM
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Bro_Shane
Posts: 1084
Joined: 8/4/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Sideways
Nice post, Bro_Shane. I was just thinking a few hours ago, that Proverbs 31 woman probably had those servant girls helping her with the kiddos. She couldn't have done everything described and been the sole caretaker for her kids whilst the husband was away at the office ... well, except men didn't go to the office then, either.
So are fathers who work outside the home in sin, too? 
Say hello to your wife for me! She's a neat gal to chat with.
Thanks. She's taking a break for a while. Too much honey-sweetened vinegar for her taste. I think I am beginning to understand why so many people post here and nowhere else - they really don't have to justify what they say, it's mob rule. Opinions can just be given as if they were law (as long as you are in the majority) and no one questions them. If you are not in the majority then you get the bum's rush with a sprinking of scripture thrown in to make it seem as if you have God's mind in the matter. I am finding out, however, that when someone comes in here and puts it all into perspective things tone down a bit.
Yes, it is crazy to think that the proverbs 31 woman did it all. That's where most women (and men) make their mistake. You can't do it all.
quote:
ORIGINAL: shadowspring
Hmm, I'm not sure why you would say the usual stay-at-home looks nothing like the Prov 31 woman.
I say it doesn't because it doesn't. To be a moden equal to the Proverbs 31 woman you would handle two or three businesses (which would involve manufacturing, retail sales, and real estate), while managing a household staff that would include a maid, cleaning people, personal valets, those that cooked, and childcare. Almost all of the SAHMs I know, and from what people have said here, spend a large amount of time with children and keeping house. There's nothing wrong with this, and I'm not knocking it. I just get tired of some womencomparing themselves to the Proverbs 31 woman when they do not share all her attributes while making another woman feel as though she isn't a good wife and mother when, many times, she comes closer to the Proverbs 31 woman as presented in scripture.
quote:
Even if the woman referred to in Prov 31 had servants to help with her household (including watching the kids) it is pretty clear from history that she was primarily on-site running the family household.
Except for that part about buying land and selling things. The household would have also consisted of land that had to be overseen and livestock to be looked after. Servants would have done this but they would have had to have been supervised.
quote:
I know a lot of SAHMs who are always busy about their family's business, in home and out of the home, paying the bills, doing the shopping, always on the lookout for a good investment or money making opportunity. In fact, other than a mom clinically depressed, I don't know any that are not productive in the way the spend their time and resources.
I know of plenty that are, as well. My point is that a woman that works outside the home can be just as much a Proverbs 31 woman as a SAHM and, many times, comes closer to what we see in scripture. So the moral high ground that some (not all, mind you, just some) express claiming a basis in scripture is the hight of folly and ignorance.
quote:
Obviously, every family will have it's own division of labor. I have a good friend who is an excellent business person, but not much of a nurturer herself. Her dh works the part-time schedule, packs the lunches, is home when the kids get home from school, and works close enough to the house and with a flexible situation that he can pick up the kids if they are sick, take them to appts. etc. They are a godly Christian family, and this works very well for them.
Great, I'm happy for them.
quote:
She had never once dissed me ever or implied that I fail the Prov 31 test by choosing the path of SAHM.
My point is that some have raised the issue of Proverbs 31 being the watermark of a good wife and mom. I'm just looking at the text and history and seeing who fits it. I'm not excluding SAHMs, but I am saying a WOHMs fit the bill just as well.
quote:
Now if those moments aren't enjoyable to you, if nursing seems to take forever because you hate sitting still for twenty minutes, or if you hate housework with a burning passion but ablsolutely LOVE sales or accounting, please don't attempt a career as a SAHM! It would not appear to be your calling. Some women enjoy leaving their children in the care of others while they join the workforce. I would feel robbed.
And some just can't afford it and must construct a worldview that allows them to feel pious about their stuation. And some really like it. And some working mothers raise well-adjusted, decent Christian children. Many working moms enjoy nursing just as much as SAHMs. You really have no point here.
_____________________________
Prayer is not where we change God's mind, it is where He changes ours.
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RE: Question for SAHM or Dads - 8/30/2007 3:07:58 PM
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Sideways
Posts: 3271
Joined: 4/12/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: PrudentWife
Now that I'm a mother I know I probably will never work like that again. But I do look forward to working in some capacity again. And I honestly don't think my family will suffer at all. Because I'll know when the time is right, and how much I can do.
Yup, I just got off the phone a little while ago with my boss at work concerning a gymnasium in Florida I'm helping to design. It's funny, my office wanted me back working, pronto, and I knew I didn't want that. I told them I would be at home, primarily, to raise my kids, but I was willing to continue a professional relationship with them.
Then they wanted the at-home work to start when he was 6 weeks, but I wasn't ready for that to happen either. I prayed many times that this work situation would fall out as God wanted it to, as I still wasn't sure what I wanted or what would be best for my family. I wasn't sure I would work again at all.
Well, it took a lot longer then they thought it would to set up the at-home work situation. Now, my son is 5 months old, and I am ready to try about 8-10 hours a week. God will work things out for the best; He always does. I will work as He is ready for me to and for as long as He wants me to.
I'm extremely happy to be home with Nathan, but a little ready to bring in some extra play money and flex my engineering muscles again!
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Some of these comments are very unhelpful. I didn't think this was supposed to be a debate. 
But I absolutely love being a wife and taking care of a husband and home. And work, for me, truly enriches that.