quote:

This would obviously discourage anyone from responding or dealing with you in the future. It certainly makes me weary of entering into any discussions with you. The reason is, you post a problem, the problem is answered, you do not like the answer and subsequently question it without actually bringing forth a proper challenge.

quote:

Proverbs 3:30, Strive not with a man without cause, if he have done thee no harm.

Gesenius' Lexicon:
Transliteration: riyb
Pronunciation
rçb (Key)
Part of Speech
verb
Root Word (Etymology)
a primitive root
TWOT Reference
2159
Outline of Biblical Usage
1) to strive, contend
a) (Qal)
1) to strive
a) physically
b) with words
2) to conduct a case or suit (legal), sue
3) to make complaint
4) to quarrel
b) (Hiphil) to contend against

http://cf.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?strongs=H7378


byr a primitive root
Transliterated Word Phonetic Spelling
Riyb reeb
Parts of Speech TWOT
Verb 2159
Definition


1. to strive, contend
1. (Qal)
1. to strive 1a
2. physically 1a
3. with words
1. to conduct a case or suit (legal), sue
2. to make complaint
3. to quarrel
4. (Hiphil) to contend against

http://www.studylight.org/lex/heb/view.cgi?number=07378

Strong's Hebrew Lexicon Search Results:

7378 riyb reeb or ruwb {roob}; a primitive root; properly, to toss, i.e. grapple; mostly figuratively, to wrangle, i.e. hold a controversy; (by implication) to defend:--adversary, chide, complain, contend, debate, X ever, X lay wait, plead, rebuke, strive, X thoroughly.

http://www.eliyah.com/cgi-bin/strongs.cgi?file=hebrewlexicon&isindex=strive

quote:

ORIGINAL: joyfulnoise

So, Tim, seeing as there is usually no ill intent or wrath in the hearts of most professional wrestlers and fighters and boxers, but they're just physically engaging in a very brutal form of public exercise with each other, are the following in your estimation also sin?:

- actors who perform their own stunts and fight choreography
- arm wrestling
- thumb wrestling
- self-defense classes
- professional hockey
- indeed, all professional competitive sports that causes teams and/or individual players to "strive" against each other
- mosh pits
- boys wrestling each other for fun
- games of rock, paper, scissor

I am not at all being flippant here. These are all instances where people use their physicality in a competitive, non-gentle way against another person for leisure; I'm sure I could think of more.

quote:

ORIGINAL: glenn78
I am glad you took the time to look the word up. I hadn't seen a couple of those websites, I will check them out in the future during my studies. As I said in my post you notice that the word also means legal proceedings. I am not going to repost what I said before, you can go back and read it. I have to say though, your unwillingness to address the points that I bring up in my post about your interpretation of this scripture only solidifies what myself and others have concluded. You are looking to lash out at UFC, and not discuss the logic of your biblical arguement. As such there is no reason to keep on this discussion any longer. God Bless, and as I said before look to reach not condemn.

quote:

The Hebrew lexicons that I cited, gives a definition of strive, to mean quarreling, physically etc.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Timcp
Proverbs 3:30

It speaks against fighting, that is what striving is.

quote:


ORIGINAL: Timcp

I'm sorry if you see it as an "argument". When it was suppose to be a simple discussion on why Christians feel fighting is Biblical, using scripture. I've asked for nothing more than that.

quote:


ORIGINAL: Timcp

as to you're interpretation of Hebrew, "strive" meant only "legal proceedings".

quote:


ORIGINAL: glenn78

Under the King James Version with Strong Numbers you will see that the definition can also mean legal proceedings. (i.e. suing) This definition fits the context of the chapter.

quote:

Say, here's a question...If you found out your pastor or any of the leaders in the church where you attend were watching UFC and the likes of such, would you still attend..? Would you bring this same debate to them as well..? And, if you did, and they responded the same as we have been, what then would you believe..?

quote:

ORIGINAL: Timcp

But Solomon spoke out against fighting. He says to fight only if someone means to do you harm.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Timcp

I'm not saying you'll go to hell.

But according to Proverbs 3:30, fighting certainly isn't Biblical, and if Solomon wouldn't do it. Christians shouldn't either.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Nesher

quote:

The Hebrew lexicons that I cited, gives a definition of strive, to mean quarreling, physically etc.

I believe this was already answered here.

Like I said, you can use a dictionary, but it won't give you the meaning of the word. If someone innocently wrote, "I love my cat," someone could attempt to accuse that person of having relations with that cat. They could say:

"I have looked at a dictionary to see what 'love' means and this is what I found:


1. a profoundly tender, passionate affection for another person.
2. a feeling of warm personal attachment or deep affection, as for a parent, child, or friend.
3. sexual passion or desire.
4. a person toward whom love is felt; beloved person; sweetheart.

Based on this definition, it is obvious that you are talking about having a desire for your cat."

This, of course, would be absurd. The person approaches the sentence ("I love my cat") with an agenda and a preconceived notion and then uses a definition of that word to fit the bias. We laugh at such an example, but how is it different than arbitrarily giving us multiple definitions and ignoring the context of the text?

I already showed in this post how when the word riyb is used in another context that is actually about physical fighting, other indicator words have to be used to establish the proper context. This shows that (1)riyb rarely refers to physical fighting and that (2) even to the original readers of the language, there had to be indicators to show that riyb means "physically fighting," showing the word was hardly ever used in such a manner.

With this in mind, how can we justifiably make Proverbs mean "physically fight?"

quote:

ORIGINAL: ManimalX
I'm sorry, timcp, but as has been said before, Proverbs 3:30 is not speaking about fighting. It is speaking of the Hebrew word riyb, which I translated for you earlier. A good translation of Proverbs 3:30 is, "Do not accuse a man for no reason- when he has done you no harm".

quote:

ORIGINAL: ManimalX
I really appreciate your zeal for purity, and urge you to continue rejecting MMA in your own life. However, this is your own personal mandate, and not a biblical one. MMA in its ideal form is about an honorable contest of skill, not about harming another person. There is corruption attached to it such as people competing for ego, alcohol endorsements, and steroid use. But there is corruption in everything man lays his hand to, because we live in a fallen world.

quote:

ORIGINAL: ironsharpensiron

quote:

Say, here's a question...If you found out your pastor or any of the leaders in the church where you attend were watching UFC and the likes of such, would you still attend..? Would you bring this same debate to them as well..? And, if you did, and they responded the same as we have been, what then would you believe..?

I posted this in #99, but as of yet has not been answered. Also post #100 by me I am surprised you haven't jumped on as well. It is mostly concerning you misunderstanding what I was stating in an earlier post. Just like to hear your thoughts on them, Timcp.

matthew

quote:

ORIGINAL: Narcil

quote:

ORIGINAL: Timcp

But Solomon spoke out against fighting. He says to fight only if someone means to do you harm.

No offence Timcp, but you're misinterpreting Proverbs 3:30 to mean physical fighting.

The verse you cited falls within a long list of verses the subject of which is dealing justly and righteously with your neighbor. You seem to equate the word "contend" with physical fighting, but it doesn't have to mean that, and in this case, given the context of the surrounding verses, it probably doesn't refer to physical fighting at all.

Def.: Contend
1. to struggle in opposition: to contend with the enemy for control of the port.
2. to strive in rivalry; compete; vie: to contend for first prize.
3. to strive in debate; dispute earnestly: to contend against falsehood.

verb (used with object)
4. to assert or maintain earnestly: He contended that taxes were too high.

As I said before, in light of the surrounding verses, definitions 3 or 4 would probably be the best in this case.

(BTW, I don't have a horse in this race, I dislike UFC).

quote:

ORIGINAL: earthless

quote:

ORIGINAL: Timcp

I'm not saying you'll go to hell.

But according to Proverbs 3:30, fighting certainly isn't Biblical, and if Solomon wouldn't do it. Christians shouldn't either.

It's the intent of the heart behind the fight that is a problem. Otherwise with your logic/train of thought it would be unbiblical for a Christian to be a police officer, a correctional officer, a soldier, or anyone in an authority position (judge, teacher, attorney, etc).

If we stretch out your post even further.. it would be unbiblical for a husband to defend his wife/family from physical harm in the parking lot of Target.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Reasoning

...but you have taken the OP so far away from its original discussion at this point that we might as well start talking about Jedi being witches.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Timcp

I created a thread about the UFC. Which shows two men "fighting" for the fun of it, as a sport. That's the point of the UFC, to fight. It's called the Ultimate Fighting Championship, it is right there in the title.

If it is Biblical, then there would be some mention of it in the Bible......

quote:

ORIGINAL: ironsharpensiron

quote:

Say, here's a question...If you found out your pastor or any of the leaders in the church where you attend were watching UFC and the likes of such, would you still attend..? Would you bring this same debate to them as well..? And, if you did, and they responded the same as we have been, what then would you believe..?

I posted this in #99, but as of yet has not been answered. Also post #100 by me I am surprised you haven't jumped on as well. It is mostly concerning you misunderstanding what I was stating in an earlier post. Just like to hear your thoughts on them, Timcp.

matthew

quote:

ORIGINAL: Timcp

The Hebrew lexicons that I cited, gives a definition of strive, to mean quarreling, physically etc.

Proverbs gives a cause to fight, if someone does you harm. So self defense would be a cause.

If their is no wrath in their hearts they shouldn't fight. That is what proverbs says.

Fight scenes by actors, as well as real fights in the UFC, glorify violence, those others you suggested don't include fighting.

quote:

ORIGINAL: joyfulnoise

So, Tim, seeing as there is usually no ill intent or wrath in the hearts of most professional wrestlers and fighters and boxers, but they're just physically engaging in a very brutal form of public exercise with each other, are the following in your estimation also sin?:

- actors who perform their own stunts and fight choreography
- arm wrestling
- thumb wrestling
- self-defense classes
- professional hockey
- indeed, all professional competitive sports that causes teams and/or individual players to "strive" against each other
- mosh pits
- boys wrestling each other for fun
- games of rock, paper, scissor

I am not at all being flippant here. These are all instances where people use their physicality in a competitive, non-gentle way against another person for leisure; I'm sure I could think of more.

quote: