Women's "Shelters" really shelters? (Full Version)

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PDChaplain -> Women's "Shelters" really shelters? (8/17/2007 8:29:12 AM)

As stated in another thread, I am not a supporter of most secular women's shelters. In my personal and business realms, I have found them to be anti-male "sanctuaries" of feminist thought and promotion. They are usually manned by untrained volunteers, many of which have male issues of their own and project these feelings onto unsuspecting women needing legitimate helps. The expose of what REALLY goes on in these "shelters" has come to the public's view in recent years. What we see in many of them is gross misuse of public and private monies and resources. Few of them offer any assistance whatsoever to male victims of female abuse, though due to this public scrutiny, many of them ARE making some much needed reforms in that area .... though they are being forced to and not out of their own benevolent hearts.[;)]

I believe there are other, more balanced ways, for an abuse victim to get help. I will be providing documentation that shows these "shelters" to be a large waste of public funds and resources, and their proven anti-family, pro-divorce, and anti-male agendas.

As a disclaimer, please don't think that I am lumping ALL such shelters into the same unhealthy clan. There ARE some well-meaning people working in these shelters who are fair and balanced. They are willing to see the abuse cycle as a two-way street. Some of them are wonderful Christian people.

Please also keep in mind the vast differences in REPORTED incidences of abuse between men and women. For obvious reasons, men are FAR less likely to report their abuse, particularly at the hands of females. Those that DO move out of their comfort zones and report abuse are many times ridiculed, shunned, and told their local "shelter" has no resources for men nor are they welcome to stay in the "shelter".

So, please allow me to begin here ......

http://www.ejfi.org/DV/dv-39.htm

"Our tradition of providing refuge for women and children, and taking them to that safe harbor in times of danger, has been turned on its head by current domestic violence laws. Instead, when police are called, it is the male who is jailed and barred from his home. The woman is thus left in the place where she claims to be in danger. That violates the legacy, and biological necessity, of providing protection for women.

If the man is removed, and the omnipresent restraining orders are effective, why is a woman's shelter needed at all? Thus, a review of the purpose and function of shelters for battered women is in order.


and this .......

"It is clear our present shelters for battered women are not equipped or prepared to deal with the conditions of more than half of the women they are presented with. Instead, many such shelters act as promoters of a simplistic feminist ideology that bears no relation to the problems they encounter. Violence-prone women quickly learn to manipulate the present system to their advantage and to the maximum discomfiture of any man they are associated with. That must change.

(edited tos 8)



PDChaplain -> RE: Women's "Shelters" really shelters? (8/17/2007 8:36:35 AM)

Here is what really happens in some of these shelters ....

http://www.ejfi.org/DV/dv-38.htm#shelters

"As noted in the Introduction to this chapter, the safety of pregnant women and children is of fundamental interest to our society. However, all too frequently ideologues have corrupted these charitable and humanitarian instincts for their personal financial gain, to forward their own social goals, and, in some cases, to satisfy the appetites of sexual predators.

The Equal Justice Foundation receives a number of reports of what is being done in shelters for battered women from workers within these state-supported refuges. We have long been concerned about the veil of secrecy under which these shelters operate and the likelihood of mismanagement so common with taxpayer-funded operations that are hidden from public review. While we support the need for shelters, we do not condone the practices summarized below.

While many, if not most, shelters serve humanity with compassion and justice, it is also known that many don't. The following information is presented anonymously in order to protect our sources from virtually certain retribution."



peace77 -> RE: Women's "Shelters" really shelters? (8/17/2007 9:02:53 AM)

You obviously do not have a clear understanding of the problems involved.

If a abusive man were held in jail, some of the services provided by shelters and DV organizations would not be necessary. They are not held in jail. The jail serves merely as a revolving door. The last time my ex-husband was arrested, he was allowed to use his own credit card, to post his own bail and was released in no time at all.

A restraining order is worth about as much as the paper it's written on.
It did not stop Yvette Cado's ex-husband from trying to kill her by pouring gasoline all over her body and lighting it with a match.

Many women have been killed by men who had a restraining order or protective order in place.

It's true that a small percentage of men are also abused. But do you really think that an appropriate place for them is in a women's dorm full of women and children who are frightened to death because of what an angry man did to them. Some of these victims are unable to feel comfortable around any male.


Anne



PDChaplain -> RE: Women's "Shelters" really shelters? (8/17/2007 9:20:35 AM)

Hi, Anne. I knew going into this thread that we would be hearing the worst case scenarios from women who have been abused. Use this thread as a venting forum if you want, but please be advised that I will not allow these worst case scenarios to override the prevailing thought of the thread.

In your case, I am very sorry that you feel the system failed you. It happens. No system is perfect, Anne. I am sorry!

I will address this from you ....

"It's true that a small percentage of men are also abused. But do you really think that an appropriate place for them is in a women's dorm full of women and children who are frightened to death because of what an angry man did to them. Some of these victims are unable to feel comfortable around any male."

No, Anne, a LARGE percentage of men are abused but the LARGER percentage of these abused men will NOT report their abuse. I can personally assure you we have no real concept of how far reaching the abuse of males is ..... from infants to teenage victims to adult victims. The "system" is designed against the male, as of right now. Thankfully, this system is changing, despite the protests of the pro-fem lobby.

The easy answer is to provide a segregated area for male abuse victims within the same shelter.

Besides, incidences of female to male and children abuse is rising ..... so why not reverse your scenario this way and say .... "Is it appropriate for women to be permitted into a men's dorm full of men and children who are frightened to death because of what an angry woman did to them. Some of these victims are unable to feel comfortable around any female."

See the double standard, Anne? If we are to offer the male the SAME validation we hold out to the female abuse victim, then the sytem MUST be changed and made more equitable. Isn't that the pro-fem lobby .... equality???? Should not an equal portion of our tax dollars be made available for male abuse victims? Should not "male abuse shelters" also be made available?[;)]



collie1 -> RE: Women's "Shelters" really shelters? (8/17/2007 9:40:33 AM)

Hi, Anne. I knew going into this thread that we would be hearing the worst case scenarios from women who have been abused. Use this thread as a venting forum if you want, but please be advised that I will not allow these worst case scenarios to override the prevailing thought of the thread.
Are we not also hearing about the worst case scenarios of shelters?



PDChaplain -> RE: Women's "Shelters" really shelters? (8/17/2007 9:59:37 AM)

Sadly, these are common cases. I will be providing further documentation to prove it as time goes on. I know this will be hardhitting for some used to the myth of what these shelters actually are and the concept of them. I was naive at one point, too, until I had firsthand experience with them both privately and professionally.

Do YOU personally feel that abused men should have the same resources and validations as abused women?



HappyAmI -> RE: Women's "Shelters" really shelters? (8/17/2007 10:05:01 AM)

What I'm hearing here is the difference between how abused women and abused men are treated along with how women's shelters are anti men? Is this correct? The thing with women's shelters is that I doubt their goal is to help restore and "fix" a marriage, but only to be a safe haven. There are no doubt MANY women in shelters who are legitimately being abused by their spouse, perhaps the OP's focus is on the women who just had an argument with their spouse and are proclaiming abuse and how the shelter can possibly compound that situation?



PDChaplain -> RE: Women's "Shelters" really shelters? (8/17/2007 10:05:02 AM)

Here is more proof ....

http://www.ejfi.org/DV/dv-42.htm#fix

"It seems only logical that all victims of domestic violence regardless of age, gender or sexual orientation would receive equal or the same justice from research and intervention programs and the criminal justice system. However, a cursory examination of public domestic violence policies and public and private domestic violence websites document that adult women are considered to be the primary or most important victim.

Concerning gender justice in the criminal justice system in particular, the Bureau of Justice Statistics Sourcebook 30 th Ed. 2002 documents on page 420 that for all crimes, sentences imposed on males are longer than the sentences that are imposed on females for the same crime.

In fact, the National Institute of Justice report, Extent, Nature, and Consequences of Intimate Partner Violence (PDF) documents that law enforcement respond differently to women who are victims of domestic violence incidents than they do men."

edited tos 8



PDChaplain -> RE: Women's "Shelters" really shelters? (8/17/2007 10:13:46 AM)

http://www.ejfi.org/DV/dv-23.htm#pgfId-1378765

Why don't men tell?

"The Wimp Factor"

When a man is a victim of his wife's physical abuse he is both shamed by the assaults of his wife and shamed by society for not "controlling" her better. Today, men are not made to ride backward on donkeys, but they are still considered "wimps" for letting their wives beat them or for complaining about their wives' attacks. For many men "Taking it like a man" means don't complain and don't show you are vulnerable or in pain!

With the prospect of being viewed as "wimps" and/or having the assaults by their wives not believed or minimized by the general public and law enforcement, it's no wonder few men report their abuse or discuss it openly.

Male socialization

• Men are to be self-sufficient. This means they do not need to be helped by others, if they are men.

(edited tos 8)



PDChaplain -> RE: Women's "Shelters" really shelters? (8/17/2007 10:25:46 AM)

Those within the Church who deal with this issue usually clearly see the issues that arise when they associate with many of these shelters.

Here is a writing by a clergyman and his wife, from Florida.

http://www.batteredmen.com/batsewel.htm



Memaw. -> RE: Women's "Shelters" really shelters? (8/17/2007 10:29:59 AM)

quote:

Do YOU personally feel that abused men should have the same resources and validations as abused women?


Absolutely.

Abuse is not partial to gender. I know there are women who abuse their husbands, and you are right, most of the men will not report it because of the "wimp" factor.

I would like to address this:

quote:

"It is clear our present shelters for battered women are not equipped or prepared to deal with the conditions of more than half of the women they are presented with. Instead, many such shelters act as promoters of a simplistic feminist ideology that bears no relation to the problems they encounter. Violence-prone women quickly learn to manipulate the present system to their advantage and to the maximum discomfiture of any man they are associated with. That must change.

While the problems with current shelters are numerous, we feel shelters are necessary. However, such shelters must stop acting as one-stop divorce shops and abandon the feminist ideology that simply blames men and promotes a lesbian lifestyle at public expense. To be effective, shelters must begin to deal realistically with the problems they are faced with, including violence-prone women.


When we (as THE CHURCH) leave the STATE to take care of our battered, of our hurting, what do we expect?
When will the church step up to its' responsibility in taking care of those who need help?
When our new sanctuary is built do you think we will have time?
After the board meeting to determine how much of a raise Pastor will get will we THEN have time?



GregandJenny -> RE: Women's "Shelters" really shelters? (8/17/2007 11:08:47 AM)

Very very VERY well said Kim!!



IonMoon -> RE: Women's "Shelters" really shelters? (8/17/2007 11:20:52 AM)

Historically (in the US, at least), men have had more resources, more power, etc. This is why women's shelters were created. A man was easily able to walk away from a marriage, etc. but women had no where to go & no one to help them. There have always been (and still are) places men can go if they have no where to stay.

The typical male is stronger and more of a real threat to the typical woman. Men (due to hormonal & societal differences) are more likely to be violent. That is not to say a woman cannot be dangerous, but it is usually easier for a man to leave an abusive woman than for a woman to leave an abusive man.

WOMEN also under-report abuse. So, it is safe to assume that even though the rate of males who are abused is probably higher than reported, it is also still lower higher than that of women.

In our current culture, it is much easier for a woman to leave a marriage or unsafe situation, but it is not discrimination to recognize that the needs of abused men and women are different and require different types of support and treatment.

No, I do not think that women's shelters should accept men. But, of course there should be resources available to help men, especially men who are leaving an abusive wife and taking the kids.

Tara P



hnt -> RE: Women's "Shelters" really shelters? (8/17/2007 11:58:01 AM)

Abuse is NOT a gender issue! I have said that more than once PDC, and you can do your search on my posts if you don't believe me. I have made that VERY clear in the past.

Just because some of the shelter's don't have facilities for men doesn't make them some radical group that you are presenting. Most of these organizations pay for motels rooms, and find resources for men as well. I do believe there is a social sigma attached to the male gender, which quite frankly never made much sense to me.

Shelter's purpose is safety not male bashing, divorce and all the rest you found in some article online. There are plenty of other sources that are legimate that don't have to push constant 'profem' deal to make their points. If you have to tell a poster her case doesn't count, because we aren't talking extreme cases to me it shows how little you know the subject. Domestic abuse is extreme no matter WHAT the gender!

There are plenty of shelters out there that work with churches, because they recognize that their clients needs are outside their realm. They have trained pastors and layman (that understand the dynamics of domestic abuse) that come to the shelters to help families with their spiritual walk. Why did this happen? Because the shelter's recognized the need that was there, and like many other programs and resources they use they reach out to the community for their expertise for help. They church and the shelter in alot of communities work together, because the both realize neither has all the resources to help the family.

They offer counseling, education, and adocates that will help you with the legal system. They are NOT there to tell you what to do! They are there to help you with your choices - whether it be go back home or find a place of safety. They realize that you can't change the mindset of the victim either, and only when they decide that change needs to happen WILL it happen!

Most shelters use students for volunteers that have to do some community time for the social work field they are going to school for. Its much like Doctor's do for the residency before begin placed in the hospital on their own for the first time. These students do work in a number of different areas, so they can have experience not just from textbooks. Just like any type of organization there are good and bad apples. I mean that is just common sense!

There are some really sick people out there, and if a family has to spend some time in a shelter compared to someone's house - both families are going to be safer. There is no reason to place others in danger - along with their families - when organizations are setup for this type of situation. They have been plenty of cases (and that means NOT extreme ones) that others were hurt and killed while sheltering family members from their angry family members searching for them. Those that abuse need our help, but we have to wait until they calm down enough to hear us. THere are MORE than enough documented cases of mentioning these people go into irrational rages, and there just is NO reaching them! These people have roots of rage within them that must be dealt with...Why? Because it makes them dangerous not only to themselves but to those around them.

Instead of searching the internet to find articles that push the profem opinions why not search out stories of the men that have come OUT from under that rock of hurt and rage? They ones that will tell you that from where they sit now they realize why their families RAN, and the fact that maybe they should have LONG before! How they had to wait until they made the decision to change their lifes DID it change! I bet you could even find some women's stories pretty much the same! Hegstrom is a good example that most of heard about. The Moody Bible church did a sermon on this called the Destructive Secret. Plenty of articles also about the "holy hush" and the 'shattered silent" within the church regarding this issue.

I personally think its sad that society as a whole - including the church - don't deal with this issue in alot of cases in the real sense. Bashing shelters is hardly the way to help anymore. Esplly with the use of some source that likes to place extremes out there to make their case. Then turning around when people show their way may not be the best - and use the excuse "We aren't talking extremes" [:'(]!

Abuse cycles and goes thru the generations, and with society denial of their real damage and exisitance of it could be why there seems to be more ugly issues in the world. Ignoring the elephant in the living room doesn't mean it isn't there.



cinderella092003 -> RE: Women's "Shelters" really shelters? (8/17/2007 12:22:14 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: PDChaplain

Hi, Anne. I knew going into this thread that we would be hearing the worst case scenarios from women who have been abused. Use this thread as a venting forum if you want, but please be advised that I will not allow these worst case scenarios to override the prevailing thought of the thread.



Maybe the worst case senarios are being mentioned because they happen more than you think. There are also a lot of women that don't come forward, which increases the number there.

Memaw said it best. Even if what you say is true about most of the shelters. It is the churches fault that we haven't stepped in to help them.



PDChaplain -> RE: Women's "Shelters" really shelters? (8/17/2007 12:40:11 PM)

I very much agree with those who state the church should be the FIRST to step up and help in domestic abuse among the flock. Actually, most will if just given the chance. Instead, we have been forcefed the image that the abused MUST first get help from these shelters. That is fallacy, at least in most cases and if we want to PRESERVE marriages and promote reconciliation instead of divorce. Our people have been programmed to seek the secular remedies instead of keeping these things under "house scrutiny". My belief is that the church and extended families must be given first priority in these cases.

I will stand by my assertations that the OVERALL umbrella of these "shelters" are little more than feminist sanctuaries and they do more harm than good. Rarely will one get anything resembling Christian counsel in these facilities ..... rather, they are enabled to feed their hate and discontent and remain the perpetual victim.

The church offers the chance for the abuse victim to move from victim to victor .... and they will do it WITHOUT taxpayer monies and with a view to a healthy reconciliation. Secular shelters are staffed and resourced according to the number of "clients" they get ..... remove the clients of only alleged but undocumented abuse and they get a reduction of their funding. They know this. Thus, many of these places are nothing more than assembly lines.

It doesn't surprise me that a few here blanch when I present the OTHER side of abuse. It IS a shock to us .... it should be! The inequities of the system need to be brought out into the open and dealt with .... public opinion of all of us as taxpayers and humanitarians demand it.

No one here, least of all me, has EVER said these "shelters" should be done away with.[;)]

What myself and many others DO advocate is that the injustices of the system be recognized and addressed. To some, the whole concept of the shelter industry is their sacred cow .... and they won't give up their agendas without a fight.[:'(]



PDChaplain -> RE: Women's "Shelters" really shelters? (8/17/2007 12:51:54 PM)

Danceforjoy, what happened to your post??? It has disappeared ....[&:]

My comment on that thread was not directed specifically to you. It was directed toward the overall recommendations for the OP to run to one of these shelters. I have been very careful to NOT throw them all into the same irrational bundle. I am well aware that the SA has an outreach to the abused, though I also will say they need to be more validating to the male abuse victim .... in my pastoral and chaplaincy experiences with the SA.

Does your facility offer resources and validations for men?



dance4joy -> RE: Women's "Shelters" really shelters? (8/17/2007 12:57:56 PM)

I removed it because I thought it seemed catty and I was afraid it might be considered off topic to bring up another thread.

My corps does not actually have a women's shelter, mine has a family shelter. Each corps is different, however there are corps that offer shelters for men only.



hnt -> RE: Women's "Shelters" really shelters? (8/17/2007 1:02:57 PM)

Actually studies have shown that if the person is active within a faith community that they are first to be contacted. So I'm not sure where you are getting this "Instead, we have been forcefed the image that the abused MUST first get help from these shelters. " I know a number of shelters that had families come to them for help, because of the denial of their situations at home from the church and they were in need of help! There are alot of people that are ignorant of this subject, and its sad but very much out there. You can tell by the comments of some they truly don't understand the mindset at all. I'm sure their intentions were good, but alot of faith ministries even document that alot of churches do more damage in the long run without having the full knowledge of what they are dealing with.

quote:

I will stand by my assertations that the OVERALL umbrella of these "shelters" are little more than feminist sanctuaries and they do more harm than good. Rarely will one get anything resembling Christian counsel in these facilities ..... rather, they are enabled to feed their hate and discontent and remain the perpetual victim.


Well I have dealt with a number of the organizations, and I haven't found what you are mentioning. Is your view what some wish for others to think to instill fear of these organizations? I have seen alot of that. Its very sad also. I have also seen a number of churches take the challege to partnership with these organizations within their community, and find that those types of statements were completely false. Its not their job to enable people to become victims forever. That is the individuals job to make a difference. Its the individuals decision to become the forever victim as well. Graduation in these organizations is handed to those that decide and work for mindset outside the 'victim' mindset. You can't do that with hate and discontent.

When others come up with programs that can far outwieght what is available with more than just speeches about this and that - your industry you don't like wouldn't have chance!



PDChaplain -> RE: Women's "Shelters" really shelters? (8/17/2007 1:16:38 PM)

hnt, then we will have to agree to disagree. I won't accept your apologetics for the abuse shelter industry. I stand by my belief that families and churches should be given first priority in mediating abuse allegations. I believe it to be the right way for Christians to go. I'm not a fan of seeking secular and worldly remedies for problems the church and families should be given a legitimate shot in resolving.

I am also willing to step out in faith and offer practical assistance to that precious sister .... in the thread you took such an exception to .... are you willing to move from rhetoric to action to help her?????[&:]



AdrianaS -> RE: Women's "Shelters" really shelters? (8/17/2007 1:53:47 PM)

The problem with the view as the churchs should be given 1st priority in abuse allegations is just unrealistic.

Women in abuse cicle of domestic violence has a mindset of its own, if she decide to ask for help she has to trust and even have a plan of scape etc than since when The Church is in the mind of most women who are not even christians etc gain their trust as a sanctuary/shelter to look for help? Since when church in her surrouding comunity is perceived as a safe heaven she can run to?

Not all church are made equals and has strong outreach their communities going on and have ministry well know and a testimony of love going on, hands on as helping those around them steady, vibrant, biblically etc.

Than in a emergency situation for sure the commom women in need of help will call 911, her social worker or someone she trust to help etc who will lead her to a place of rescue etc at least there are someone there to help her, a womem shelter. If she will be brainwashed there by feminist or whatever I dont think so..for goodness sake the women is at least into a serious crises into her life with already so many issues going and stresses that even if the feminists are trying to indoctrinate her it will be very difficult to stick in her mind...I think.

People have lots of agendas going on for sure and unfortunatly many churches have been failing their communities steady not even knowning how to deal with other crises inside their own walls, as not a safe place to deal with a lot issues and for this motive many left and living their fellowships because to them it became irrelevant not aware of their struggles and issues etc...

Well, the members of the body of Christ inside churches that are known to their community already, steady working as a shelter and sanctuary are already ministring to those in need etc if the church in general do not have more visible impact is simple because their testimony of love is not being testified to the world around as they will know we are of Christ because of our LOVE to one another! Many churches do not even cooperate with others churches as doing outreach ministries etc there are competitiong going etc the standard for a church to minister is much more higher than secular approach for sure. Its a great previlege to minister to the poor, forgotten, ostracized of society, in the Lord Jesus name! Although trainment is good without love and humble spirit, any spiritual gift, any diploma degree, etc is not much, really.

Churches that are making a difference are already busy reaching out serving their communities all over the world, its doors is open ministring and is the 911 emergency call of their comunities as people run to it in need of help, shelter etc



hnt -> RE: Women's "Shelters" really shelters? (8/17/2007 2:15:18 PM)

hmmmm. No actually I took exception to your views on shelters! I didn't have a problem with the thread at all. You seem to be the one having the issue with what I said - otherwise you wouldn't have started this thread. [;)]

I have been helping/handling people faith based practical assistance for years regarding this issue. That is why I commented the way I did. At times you must partner with secular because no church can be the do all end all to everything. There is an awful lot of lack of education on this subject, and we have to face that fact that it is there! You stating you don't think they should do away with shelters, and comment the way you do is a counterdiction personally.

If you dropped the profem rhetoric and spoke to some of the pastors that deal with this shelters you might be suprised that alot of them disagree with you also! [:)] I agree that radical feminists are an issue, but we can't go around dealing with everything as if they run the world....because they DON'T! As I have said before there are good sources and bad sources - just like everything in this world! Education is the key, not counterdicting stereotypes. I also support in more than one realm faith based domestic abuse organizations, and had done research on this subject/issue for a long time (years).

I tend to offer help behind the scenes, and not directly on the board.



Kath -> RE: Women's "Shelters" really shelters? (8/17/2007 2:21:50 PM)

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buckifn -> RE: Women's "Shelters" really shelters? (8/17/2007 2:28:48 PM)

Many of the complaints leveled against women's shelters could also be leveled against various churches, and other social service organizations striving to meet the needs of people in crisis.

Even The Red Cross with all it's positive attributes was terribly limited in their efforts to minimize suffering of Hurricane Katrina victims who were suffering from a terrible crisis situation. So I don't see the point in spending so much time and energy focusing on women's shelters.

It would be best to try and find ways to contribute positive changes wouldn't it?



Harvie -> RE: Women's "Shelters" really shelters? (8/17/2007 2:47:50 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: PDChaplain

As stated in another thread, I am not a supporter of most secular women's shelters..... Few of them offer any assistance whatsoever to male victims of female abuse, though due to this public scrutiny, many of them ARE making some much needed reforms in that area .... though they are being forced to and not out of their own benevolent hearts.



Frankly, I am not surprised that few WOMEN'S shelters offer assistance to MALE victims. In our town, the rescue mission is designed to offer assistance and temporary housing to men only (not children, not families) ... which is why the community saw a need for a separate women's-only "home" to fill that need. Personally, I think separate shelters for men and women is a preferred approach over coed shelters and facilities.

PDChaplain ... does your town have a rescue mission for men in addition to a shelter for women? Or is there just a women's shelter?



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