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RE: :: Slain in the Spirit - 8/14/2007 12:38:02 PM
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Soxfan
Posts: 1477
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From: Connecticut
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But he's an anointed man of God!
_____________________________
"This would be the first step in apostasy; men first forget the true, and then adore the false.".......C.H. Spurgeon
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RE: :: Slain in the Spirit - 8/14/2007 12:43:05 PM
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sunshinesoprano
Posts: 895
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From: Georgia
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quote:
ORIGINAL: earthless
quote:
ORIGINAL: sunshinesoprano
quote:
ORIGINAL: earthless
Woah.. woah...
There is some major confusion here.
FurGod - Word of Faith is not a legit denomination nor something that is to be respected as such. It is a collection of heretical teachings that came to church circles by E.W. Kenyon.
sunshine - PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE do not confuse Pentecostalism (which is a legit denomination, doctrinally sound on the core essentials) with Word of Faith teachings.
We have officially reached the CRUX of all of my arguments. The problem that so many people have mistakenly linked and mixed Pentecostalism with Word of Faith.
They are not one in the same. Even though WoF has been able to make it inlays more in Pentecostal circles than let's say Baptist ones.
But they are not one in the same and they are not something to be respected. Heretical Word of Faith practices are not the "Pentecostal thing.."
Earthless...
I think you are the source of the confusion. I know the difference in WOF and Pentecostalism very well, and have my opinions about both.
Not everyone is as ignorant about things as you seem to imply.
You were talking about people being slain in the spirit, which takes place in Pentecostal churches. That was where my reply was.
I think you enjoy trying to make yourself look more intelligent than others. That's quite sad. 
Ouch. Why do you have that impression of me?
And yes that action takes place in Pentecostal churches.. but it is not Pentecostalism.
And if you already knew there is a difference then why say, "One of my dearest friends was raised SDA and totally against the Pentecostal thing...until he married one! " Slain in the Spirit is not a Pentecostal thing.
Okay, fine, whatever. You know all things. My experience in Pentecostal churches has been that being slain in the spirit is a common thing. So, therefore, it either is part of the pentecostal church or something they've adapted. Either way, it's something that's going on in Pentecostal churches. Since I'm not one, I don't have their procedure and policy manual in my back pocket.
And yes, I do have that opinion of you. And I did see your little comment to Kat. People aren't know it alls when they are simply conveying information. It's different when you're out to prove you're right.
_____________________________
Pure Heart-Fresh, Progressive Southern Gospel
Sing, laugh, love, PRAISE!
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RE: :: Slain in the Spirit - 8/14/2007 1:29:39 PM
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wintery
Posts: 1124
Joined: 2/1/2007
From: nw alabama
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quote:
ORIGINAL: PEP1941
i did not say anyone had blasphemed the Holy Spirit. It was just a caution meant in the right spirit.
I understand that you are sincere. Have you thought about the reverse, that it is wrong to attribute to God that which he hasn't done? And how do we judge it?
Christians that defend all sorts of prophecies and dreams tend to quote
Proverbs 29:18 Where there is no vision, the people perish:
and leave off the last part
but he that keepeth the law, happy is he.
So when a practice is questionable I can not answer with "anything goes so don't dare offend God". So far there has been no example of Christians in Scripture seeking to be knocked out or having meetings for this purpose.
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RE: :: Slain in the Spirit - 8/14/2007 1:34:31 PM
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wintery
Posts: 1124
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From: nw alabama
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quote:
ORIGINAL: sunshinesoprano
And yes, I do have that opinion of you. And I did see your little comment to Kat. People aren't know it alls when they are simply conveying information. It's different when you're out to prove you're right.
I have not at all gotten that impression from earthless's posts. I begin with the assumption that everyone on here is a nice person. It's difficult to evaluate personality from typing. sunshinesoprano, your input is appreciated because it is a discussion, which involves by definition differing viewpoints.
"Pentecostal" has different meanings. There are the "oneness pentecostals" and some assume that this is all pentecostals. There are others, and there are churches that might be described as "pentecostal" which have a different name.
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RE: :: Slain in the Spirit - 8/14/2007 2:34:38 PM
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earthless
Posts: 5028
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From: where bbq pigeons roast....
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quote:
ORIGINAL: sunshinesoprano
Okay, fine, whatever.
Why all the sass and attitude sis? I have not been rude to you.
quote:
ORIGINAL: sunshinesoprano
You know all things.
FAR FAR from it. Just because a Christian is testing a practice in light of Scripture - does not mean he/she is a "know it all". God all throughout Scripture commends those who do just that and yet some in Christian circles hate it when a believer does just that. Odd.
quote:
ORIGINAL: sunshinesoprano
My experience in Pentecostal churches has been that being slain in the spirit is a common thing. So, therefore, it either is part of the pentecostal church or something they've adapted.
Historical fact shows it is something that has been introduced in some Pentecostal churches. But it is not found in all and it is not a Pentecostal only thing.
quote:
ORIGINAL: sunshinesoprano
Either way, it's something that's going on in Pentecostal churches. Since I'm not one, I don't have their procedure and policy manual in my back pocket.
Assemblies of God (as one example) does not sanction it.
quote:
ORIGINAL: sunshinesoprano
And yes, I do have that opinion of you. And I did see your little comment to Kat. People aren't know it alls when they are simply conveying information. It's different when you're out to prove you're right.
I am out to prove the Bible is right. Why that's such a thorn in your side is beyond me. All things stand or fall in light of Scripture. Even when it's something people may adhere to and not want to admit they may be wrong.
_____________________________
Probing Today's Religious Movements | Promoting Doctrinal Discernment & Critical Thinking | Providing Reasons for Christian Faith & Ethics
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RE: :: Slain in the Spirit - 8/14/2007 2:34:49 PM
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wintery
Posts: 1124
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quote:
ORIGINAL: FurGodWurLivin
I'm starting to think I'm being misheard. What I'm saying is that we will have an eternity of discovery into God and His creation on the other side of that void called "death"... seeing as how we will have all that time, I think it would be very foolish to say that we currently understand the spirit world accurately after dedicating maybe 30 years to the study of them.
"spirit world" is not a Biblical term--I do hear the term sometimes overnights on a certain not-exactly-Christian radio program.
quote:
ORIGINAL: FurGodWurLivin
Also, if we are honest, God had people do some really wacky stuff in the Bible. Isaiah had to wander around naked and barefoot for 3 1/2 years as a sign of the Egyptians going into captivity. Jeremiah had to lay on his side of 400+ days in a row because of the sin of Israel.
This is an "opposite" of a discussion I had with a formerly charismatic brother turned non-instrumental Church of Christ. He argued no instruments in the New Testament and we can't look at the Psalms or Old Testament because David danced scantily clad. "Do you think we should do that today?!" he asked me. I think we should obey God--including being careful what we associate with His name.
quote:
ORIGINAL: FurGodWurLivin
Secondly, it is not always true that there is a necessary desire for something to happen before it does. The presupposition to the argument you make is that outward manifestations are invariably based in human emotion or sentiment.
Look up Marjoe Gortner on youtube. (no I'm not saying everyone is a Marjoe! Perhaps you will understand that danger exists.)
quote:
ORIGINAL: FurGodWurLivin
I'm afraid I must also criticize your poor use of "proof-texting" to bring the Bible to your point. The verse you cited is actually used in the Bible as a defense of spiritual gifts... and not declaring that God's will is completely knowable to the human mind.
I cannot agree. The principle stated by the Apostle is applicable across the board. Here is the verse:
1 Corinthians 14:20
Brethren, be not children in understanding: howbeit in malice be ye children, but in understanding be men.
Now here are Wesley's notes on this exact verse, courtesy of e-sword (emphasis added):
Be not children in understanding - This is an admirable stroke of true oratory! to bring down the height of their spirits, by representing that wherein they prided themselves most, as mere folly and childishness. In wickedness be ye infants - Have all the innocence of that tender age. But in understanding be ye grown men - Knowing religion was not designed to destroy any of our natural faculties, but to exalt and improve them, our reason in particular.
...and quite relevant to the discussion at hand.
quote:
ORIGINAL: FurGodWurLivin
The problem in the west is that we believe that the highest form of faith is living void of encounter... to quote the dean of our Bible College.
Does he also claim, as a charismatic minister friend of mine does, that Christianity is an "eastern religion...it came from the Middle East", thereby seeming to justify a more mystic perspective?
quote:
ORIGINAL: FurGodWurLivin
We are arguing about someone falling on the ground when someone prays for them... who really cares?.
(wintery reluctantly raises hand)
quote:
ORIGINAL: FurGodWurLivin
If the Kingdom of Heaven is about more than eating, drinking, or falling over, why is there such debate about it? We are getting sidetracked by what is a non-issue in our eternal salvation..
No-o-. Making sure we're on the right track matters.
Romans 14:12 So then every one of us shall give account of himself to God.
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RE: :: Slain in the Spirit - 8/14/2007 3:03:49 PM
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Stephanos
Posts: 1110
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quote:
ORIGINAL: earthless
Assemblies of God (as one example) does not sanction it.
Sorry, but that is incorrect.
AG position on Manifestations of the Spirit
quote:
Slain in the Spirit. The phrases “slain in the Spirit,” “falling under the power,” or “resting in the Spirit” are not found in the Bible. They are used, however, to describe the experience of falling to the floor under the power of the Holy Spirit. Although being slain in the Spirit seems to be a distinguishing characteristic of some recent revivals and evangelistic ministries, there are recorded accounts of people falling under the power of God or being slain in the Spirit in 18th and 19th century revivals. Some of the earlier recorded prostration experiences were related to sinners falling under conviction for their sins. More frequently in the modern Pentecostal/Charismatic revival, believers who are slain in the Spirit experience an extended, intense time of inner work of the Spirit tailored to the specific nature or needs of the individual.
Some expositors have noted that in all biblical instances of the powerful presence of God causing one to fall prostrate, the position was always face down, while in contemporary instances, the worshipper falls backward. When the number of worshippers who fall reaches a larger number with regularity, some evangelists have relied on “catchers” to protect from injury during a fall. Some have questioned if humans have to protect from injury if the work is genuinely an act of the Holy Spirit. But based on biblical evidence, falling down is not an evidence of spirituality. Nor is it a normative experience that should be sought on the basis of any biblical command or repeated example.
Overwhelming experiences, such as falling to the floor, are, therefore, in themselves not to be encouraged as a pattern sought by all believers. However, such experiences, when they occur, may be valid, and should not be summarily discredited.
On the other hand, some believers attending a meeting where a few are slain in the Spirit may feel incorrectly that if they do not fall, others will think them unspiritual or resisting the move of the Spirit. A “courtesy fall” is never the work of the Spirit, nor is a quick rise so others may have the experience. If one is truly slain in the Spirit, there is most likely a work the Spirit wishes to do in that life.
I use to attend attend a AG church where this took place regularly (aka almost every service). When I was weaker in spirit I thought this was the right thing. But there were several times when I had someone try to "slay me" but I knew I should not be falling down. Yet that did not stop the person from trying to push harder to make me fall, "pray" that God would "move" in me, all so I would fall down. Little did I know that the Spirit WAS moving in me. It was the beginnings of God showing me that such actions are NOT of His will and are just wild actions of hyper-active people thinking they can force the Spirit of God to move.
The Spirit does not move because someone walks by and waves his hands. The Spirit moves on God's timing. Not our will, but HIS will be done!!
< Message edited by Stephanos -- 8/14/2007 3:20:31 PM >
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RE: :: Slain in the Spirit - 8/14/2007 3:10:37 PM
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Soxfan
Posts: 1477
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: Connecticut
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quote:
ORIGINAL: earthless
Assemblies of God (as one example) does not sanction it.
earthless. I have to respectfully disagree. Before my current church, I attended 3 different AoG churches and ALL of them practiced SITS. I even was a counselor at a kid's camp (7-12 year olds, and they dedicated one of the services to coercing kids to speak in tongues and get slain in the spirit.
Plus, as Stephanos has posted, they neither sanction or disapprove. Actually they do that a lot in their position papers, take neutral stances.
Remember, Brownsville is an AoG church and we all know what happened there.
Unfortunately, many of the things that the AoG deemed unbiblical in the past have recently crept their way into their churches (Latter Rain, WoF, Kingdom Now, etc).
I'll give you an example:
They have a position paper against the restoration of Apostles and Prophets movement, yet the Austrailian AoG fully endorses it. As does Tommy Barnett's AoG church in Phoenix
< Message edited by Soxfan -- 8/14/2007 3:18:37 PM >
_____________________________
"This would be the first step in apostasy; men first forget the true, and then adore the false.".......C.H. Spurgeon
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RE: :: Slain in the Spirit - 8/14/2007 3:16:21 PM
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walkin2e
Posts: 170
Joined: 7/4/2005
From: Blackshear, Georgia
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:"However, when I opened the door to the "sanctuary," electricity hit me, the hairs on my arms and the back of my neck stood on end and rippled, and the hair on my head rippled."
Sounds like you encountered a spirit.
Job 4 verses 14, 15 "Fear came upon me, and trembling, which made all of my bones to shake. Then a spirit passed before my face; the hair of my flesh stood up:"
walkin2e
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"And Enoch walked with God: and he was not; for God took him." Gen 5.24 http://www.myspace.com/wwwmyspacecomwalkin2e
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RE: :: Slain in the Spirit - 8/14/2007 3:16:39 PM
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earthless
Posts: 5028
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From: where bbq pigeons roast....
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Sad to see their official stance has changed on this. Thank you guys for the research and correction.
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Probing Today's Religious Movements | Promoting Doctrinal Discernment & Critical Thinking | Providing Reasons for Christian Faith & Ethics
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RE: :: Slain in the Spirit - 8/14/2007 3:39:29 PM
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sunshinesoprano
Posts: 895
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: Georgia
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quote:
ORIGINAL: earthless
sunshine,
How about instead of both of us wasting posts in deciding if I am being a "know it all" or not. Why don't you please respond to my posts which build a case from Scripture about this practice. Or perhaps even comment on the video clips shared by Kim and or even show us from Scripture why this is a sound biblical practice.
Any of those would be a much greater use of everyone's time for the discussion of this topic.
And to try and help the tone of my posts, I will add some emoticons at the end of them to show I am not being mean or a 'know it all'. I thought my avatar would be suffice but I guess not. So here I go:   
Here's my position and then I'm going to leave this alone.
I'm sorry if I made a judgement on you by your posts. The fact that you question it shows me that you are an intelligent person and I appreciate that. I believe that we shouldn't just take anything people give us as fact and that we should test everything against scripture.
I'm not saying you're wrong at all. I'm skeptical of it myself, though I have seen it and believe it's real and also believe that some of it is a big fat act.
What I had a problem with, and apparently I'm not the only one who interpreted your posts this way, was that you seemed to really have an agenda with this. In any case, my apologies for reading your posts the wrong way. I just have a problem with people judging how others worship.
I've also made my point that I believe some people can pervert ANYTHING if given the right opportunity.
I'm sorry we got off to the wrong start and I believe that ultimately we're not too far off the same page.
Text is hard to interpret. Good debate is good for the mind.
sss
_____________________________
Pure Heart-Fresh, Progressive Southern Gospel
Sing, laugh, love, PRAISE!
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RE: :: Slain in the Spirit - 8/14/2007 4:04:56 PM
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colliefan
Posts: 2225
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: Raleigh, NC
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We must guard against grounding our spiritual commitment on the quicksands of fluctuating experiences. Experience (yes, even revival experience) must be constantly tested and verified by the objective truths of the Word of God.
Erwin W. Lutzer (1941– )
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RE: :: Slain in the Spirit - 8/14/2007 4:13:31 PM
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floydette
Posts: 1130
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quote:
ORIGINAL: sunshinesoprano
I have seen it and believe it's real and also believe that some of it is a big fat act.
I think that this is true no matter what we look at. Scripture says that God will be looking at our motives. If someone goes down for wrong motives, the drag for them. If they go down because of the Spirit, then so be it. Anything we look at, be it reading your Bible, going to church, giving, teaching 1st graders, etc, etc, can ALL be done out of the movement of the Spirit, or a desire of our flesh. It is God who looks at those things to judge the motive behind them. If they are not done out of the Spirit of God, then they will get all burned up like wood, hay and stubble.
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RE: :: Slain in the Spirit - 8/14/2007 4:14:28 PM
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Psalms274
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I have always looked at this with a skeptical eye ... but heard a wonderful, biblical teaching on it once that answered quite a few questions I had on the “slaying” phenomenon and of the “gifts” of the Spirit such as tongues, knowledge, all that stuff.
Some of the points made (and I am going on memory):
(Scripture is NLT) In Daniel 10:4ff
quote:
On April 23, as I was standing on the bank of the great Tigris River, I looked up and saw a man dressed in linen clothing, with a belt of pure gold around his waist. His body looked like a precious gem. His face flashed like lightning, and his eyes flamed like torches. His arms and feet shone like polished bronze, and his voice roared like a vast multitude of people.
Only I, Daniel, saw this vision. The men with me saw nothing, but they were suddenly terrified and ran away to hide. So I was left there all alone to see this amazing vision. My strength left me, my face grew deathly pale, and I felt very weak. Then I heard the man speak, and when I heard the sound of his voice, I fainted and lay there with my face to the ground.
In Exodus 33:19-21
quote:
The LORD replied, “I will make all my goodness pass before you, and I will call out my name, Yahweh, before you. For I will show mercy to anyone I choose, and I will show compassion to anyone I choose. But you may not look directly at my face, for no one may see me and live.” The LORD continued, “Look, stand near me on this rock.
It was explained that “slain in the spirit” is the body’s reaction to being in the manifold (physical) presence of God. When Daniel was in the physical presence of God, his body collapsed because our earthly bodies are not made to be in the physical presence of God. (see Ex 33:20) Now, the true biblical slaying would mean the body simply falls to the ground as the person is in the presence of God. Any attention getting would indicate that it was not of God.
God made us in His image, and imparts His characteristics onto us, such as gentleness, kindness, love … the tangible stuff. The gifts of knowledge, tongues, wisdom, etc. are glimpses of His supernatural characteristics.
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I pray that you, being rooted and established in love, may have power, together with all the saints, to grasp how wide and long and high and deep is the love of Christ.
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http://piswa.blogspot.com/
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RE: :: Slain in the Spirit - 8/14/2007 4:50:28 PM
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anointedtoteach
Posts: 71
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John 21
21:25
And there are also many other things which Jesus did, the which, if they should be written every one, I suppose that even the world itself could not contain the books that should be written. Amen.
John let us know that there were many things Jesus did, that was not written in the scripture.... every little thing is not recorded the Bible.
Jesus told us to do greater work... which mean we should be doing more work, more miracles, healings etc..
I never heard of anyone getting in line to be slain in the Spirit... PPL get in line for prayer. Being slain in the Spirit in very commend in my church. I have seen small children, teens and adults goes out in the Holy Spirit, sometime without anyone touching them. The present of God be so strong in the church that people fall out in the Holy Spirit.
Years ago there was a little girl about 6 or 7, visiting our church For Bible Study, she from a baptist church that don't practice this level of anointing. The Glory of God was so strong that ppl fall out in the Spirit. This little girl was one of them. Everybody got up but her... she was till laying after the service was over.... my pastor went over to bring her out, but she begin to prophesy... She did not speak as a child, but mature, spiritual leader.. her mother didn't know what to say, it scare her... She knew it wasn't her child talking. The child begin to describe heaven. My pastor advise the mother to carry the child to the car and to her bed and put a tape recorded near her, because she was still prophesying.
I have been slain in the Spirit many time, sometime God would speak to me, I experience healing or sometime it feel like someone cover me with a warm blanket. Sometime He speak to me. He even led me to see a close vision. One time I actually seen the feet of Jesus. We had a viistation of Christ during a youth revival... some of the children saw Jesus.... I only saw his feet when I was slain in the Holy Spirit. There was a 6 years old boy that was slain in the Holy Spirit, when he came through, he say he saw gold floor.
Over the years I have seen ppl slain in the Holy Spirit and experience it myself many time.
Just because it is not spelled out in the Bible (it is in the Bible) don't mean it is not of God..... Be careful not to call the work of the Holy Spirit, sataism or false.
AT
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RE: :: Slain in the Spirit - 8/15/2007 12:24:30 AM
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Stephanos
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And I would say be careful not to attribute a false teaching to the work of God. I have been in the midths of what you describe. Even more so, the AG church I attended had "Evangelist" who was at Brownsville during that "revival" visit nearly twice a month. After this churches pastor died, the new pastor was that "Evangelist's" son. We even had Pastor Kilpatrick visit our church. I was there, I saw these so called "slayings" and I can say that 99% of it was all in the person's head. I do not believe the Spirit of God was moving, because that is simply not how the Spirit moves. Of those who are believers and have been called out by God to obtain grace, we HAVE the Holy Spirit. We dont get extra portions every sunday or every time a "Evangelist" comes. Yes the Spirit works IN me, but I dont get hit with more just because someone waves their hands or desides to walk buy me.
I have do doubt that these "Evangelist's" and Pastors who support these things, as well as the common lay person in the church, have good intentions. I do not believe they are intentionally doing something unbiblical. But this none the less IS unbiblical.
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RE: :: Slain in the Spirit - 8/15/2007 7:54:40 AM
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earthless
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Exactly, Stephanos. Excellent points on attributing things to the Holy Spirit which can very well be (because they are in the circles these practices originated in and are still seen in today) moves of the demonic realm.
Also an excellent point in how a born-again believer HAS the Holy Spirit. Yet, that kind of mentality goes hand in hand with the other faulty teaching of "Lord give him a double anointing of your Spirit..." or the ever so classic "he is so anointed!! he is anointed more than all here..."
Bogus.
It had its meaning and purpose in the Old Testament. In the New, it means to be born-again, to be saved, a believer.
People today like to use it as if it carries some supernatural power over someone else. "My anointing is twice as much as his!!!". "Pay my 1,000 and become my amour bearer.. I will impart my anointing to you... (Rod Parsley)"
What an insult to the Word of God and a mockery of what it says. Reminds me of the passage where God says there will be false teachers around us, even more in the last days, making merchandise of believers and of His Word.
_____________________________
Probing Today's Religious Movements | Promoting Doctrinal Discernment & Critical Thinking | Providing Reasons for Christian Faith & Ethics
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RE: :: Slain in the Spirit - 8/15/2007 8:48:51 AM
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FurGodWurLivin
Posts: 1089
Joined: 4/17/2005
From: Kansas City, MO
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I will keep this quick (hopefully). First off, I would appreciate it if we could keep the swipes at public figures to a minimum. Simply because it is very easy to retreat from a discussion pointing at a figurehead, screaming "See?! See?!"
quote:
So when a practice is questionable I can not answer with "anything goes so don't dare offend God". So far there has been no example of Christians in Scripture seeking to be knocked out or having meetings for this purpose. As I said earlier, I don't disagree that seeking to be slain in the spirit is wrong. I do disagree that it is wrong if it happens. I have posted several examples of God doing things that don't make sense to the human psyche, so I think I have stated the point quite clearly that we don't know absolutely what is on God's mind.quote:
Just because a Christian is testing a practice in light of Scripture - does not mean he/she is a "know it all". I will venture a guess that there is a difference between examining something in the light of scripture, and flogging a dead horse. Right now, it seems we are doing the latter.quote:
I am out to prove the Bible is right. Why that's such a thorn in your side is beyond me. Incorrect. Like all of us, you are out to prove that your opinion of the Bible is right. Before anyone gets huffy, I'll explain. The Bible is true. When we read something on a page, we must take that information, process it and apply it. It is in the processing and applying that our differences in opinion take place. Once again, please do not insult my intelligence by saying that I am trying to prove the Bible incorrect. I am simply defending a thing that happens in the church that the Bible NEVER ADDRESSES.quote:
"spirit world" is not a Biblical term--I do hear the term sometimes overnights on a certain not-exactly-Christian radio program. True, spirit world is not a Biblical term. Neither is "trinity", "rapture", or "Xylophone", but all three get used in the "christian" vocabulary. When I say spirit world, understand that I am referring to the place of Angels, Demons, Heaven, and Hell. Use your own terminology if you must.quote:
This is an "opposite" of a discussion I had with a formerly charismatic brother turned non-instrumental Church of Christ. He argued no instruments in the New Testament and we can't look at the Psalms or Old Testament because David danced scantily clad. "Do you think we should do that today?!" he asked me. I think we should obey God--including being careful what we associate with His name.
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ORIGINAL: FurGodWurLivin
Secondly, it is not always true that there is a necessary desire for something to happen before it does. The presupposition to the argument you make is that outward manifestations are invariably based in human emotion or sentiment.
Look up Marjoe Gortner on youtube. (no I'm not saying everyone is a Marjoe! Perhaps you will understand that danger exists.) I agree, we should obey God. That is a no duh... but you have yet to prove that being "slain in the spirit" is disobeying God. And once again, instead of pointing at a figurehead (Marjoe Gortner or whoever), please give me an argument. I'm saying that not every manifestation demands human sentiment. I'm not saying that it never happens that way and that that shouldn't be controlled. quote:
I cannot agree. The principle stated by the Apostle is applicable across the board. Here is the verse:
1 Corinthians 14:20
Brethren, be not children in understanding: howbeit in malice be ye children, but in understanding be men.
Now here are Wesley's notes on this exact verse, courtesy of e-sword (emphasis added):
Be not children in understanding - This is an admirable stroke of true oratory! to bring down the height of their spirits, by representing that wherein they prided themselves most, as mere folly and childishness. In wickedness be ye infants - Have all the innocence of that tender age. But in understanding be ye grown men - Knowing religion was not designed to destroy any of our natural faculties, but to exalt and improve them, our reason in particular.
...and quite relevant to the discussion at hand. Okay, and look at what Wesley said. He said "knowing religion". I would say that knowing Religion and knowing God are miles apart. Wesley has not, in fact, contradicted me. I said that knowing God thoroughly is an impossible task to the limited human mind. Religion is an entirely seperate matter. We can understand our beliefs thoroughly, in fact, over-thoroughly... but that doesn't get us any closer to God. I still maintain that the verse you used, when placed in it's context, is not adressing this topic.quote:
Does he also claim, as a charismatic minister friend of mine does, that Christianity is an "eastern religion...it came from the Middle East", thereby seeming to justify a more mystic perspective? No. He quite rather says that Christianity is a sect of Judaism, and as such is best understood from the Hebraic mindset rather than Greek rationalism.quote:
(wintery reluctantly raises hand) Wow... I will pray for you while I sit in the evil IHOP-KC prayer room. I'm sorry you let other people ruin your day like that.quote:
No-o-. Making sure we're on the right track matters. And I must ask, why is this topic making sure we are on the right track? It doesn't affect your salvation such as believing in Baptism or transubstitution.quote:
We must guard against grounding our spiritual commitment on the quicksands of fluctuating experiences. Experience (yes, even revival experience) must be constantly tested and verified by the objective truths of the Word of God.
Erwin W. Lutzer (1941– ) Absolutely true. However, people pan speaking in Tongues all the time, even thought it is specifically talked about in the Bible. The church is not very "up" on the reality of God never changing when it comes to discussing Doctrine.quote:
It had its meaning and purpose in the Old Testament. In the New, it means to be born-again, to be saved, a believer. Personally, I find this a highly dangerous statement. God never changes, and until heaven and earth pass away not one jot or tittle will pass from the law. The NT doesn't supercede or nullify the old testament... rather, the NT supplements the Old. Let me put it a different way... we still live under the covenant God made with Israel, except we believe that their promised Messiah has come, and they do not. Until I see every Christian healing the sick, casting out demons, and leading people to the Lord on the street amidst tears... I'm willing to say that anointings in various gifts vary from person to person.quote:
People today like to use it as if it carries some supernatural power over someone else. "My anointing is twice as much as his!!!". "Pay my 1,000 and become my amour bearer.. I will impart my anointing to you... (Rod Parsley)"
What an insult to the Word of God and a mockery of what it says. Reminds me of the passage where God says there will be false teachers around us, even more in the last days, making merchandise of believers and of His Word. And this is where I tell you that you have done the exact same thing you criticized people for earlier when talking about Pentecostalism. There are various types of Pentecostals, there are various types of Charismatics. Ain't denominationalism grand? I don't like Rod Parsley because he says dumb stuff like you quoted. That truly is bogus. However, just because of one idiot, you are willing to pan an entire section of the church... this is dangerous ice you are skating on. I would also caution you, after reading your background story, I think you have become "over sensitive" to the WoF movement. Reasonable, though it may be, I think some prayer about releasing forgiveness might be appropriate. Remember, Sermon on the Mount.
Adam
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I am hyena, Jesus is my Mufasa...
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