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[Deleted] - 4/19/2008 9:02:42 PM
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RE: :: Slain in the Spirit - 4/19/2008 9:02:44 PM
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lw9
Posts: 1225
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quote:
prophetica: Have you not read when the power of God came on Elijah that he slayed the false prophets of baal
quote:
This thread is regarding the Power and Work and Person of The Holy Spirit. There is no reason to believe that these who are under a different Work of The Holy Spirit of God are condemned. For it is written do not condemn, lest you be condemned.
Since this is a thread about manifestations that are called spiritual gifts and blessings, are you actually advocating 'Killing in the Spirit' as a spiritual gift or spiritual blessing, then? The power of God came upon Elijah, by the way, after the killing, but it's beside the point since you dragged this into the discussion. If someone manifests a 'gift' for killing and claims it's a blessing of the Holy Spirit, are you going to point to 1Kings 18 to defend him?
< Message edited by lw9 -- 4/19/2008 9:16:11 PM >
_____________________________
Aperture Science. We do what we must because we can.
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[Deleted] - 4/19/2008 9:05:59 PM
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[Deleted] - 4/19/2008 9:13:14 PM
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RE: :: Slain in the Spirit - 4/19/2008 9:28:02 PM
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lw9
Posts: 1225
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quote:
prophetica: I, of course, did not advocated killing anyone.
Really? But this is a thread about 'in the Spirit' gifts and blessings, and you brought Elijah's killings into it as an example, so what other conclusion was there to make??
Can you not see the fallacy? If you cannot properly defend and connect the dots between your example of Elijah [which, by the way, was incorrect since the power of God did not come upon him until after the killing] and the modern day 'gifts and blessings' of the Holy Spirit of this discussion, then obviously your examples do not fit or apply here.
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Aperture Science. We do what we must because we can.
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RE: :: Slain in the Spirit - 4/19/2008 9:40:26 PM
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Godhead
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Slaying in the spirit is a good example of how easily people are amused and entertained. Also how they are easily sidetrack from what is really important.
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The life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.
(Galatians 2:20)
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RE: :: Slain in the Spirit - 4/20/2008 1:56:19 AM
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cybrjewls
Posts: 1395
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Again, why does the Body of Christ have to defend itself from the Body of Christ?
All Scripture is God Breathed and shows that the Person and Work of The Holy Spirit of God is Powerful and effective to accomplish His Will.
The same Holy Spirit that was empowering Elijah is The Spirit that The Church received since Pentecost. He manifests Himself as He has deemed appropriate to Himself in each believers life to differing degrees of authority and glories as is in keeping with The Testimony of The Holy Prophets at Scripture.
quote:
ORIGINAL: lw9
quote:
prophetica: I, of course, did not advocated killing anyone.
Really? But this is a thread about 'in the Spirit' gifts and blessings, and you brought Elijah's killings into it as an example, so what other conclusion was there to make??
Can you not see the fallacy? If you cannot properly defend and connect the dots between your example of Elijah [which, by the way, was incorrect since the power of God did not come upon him until after the killing] and the modern day 'gifts and blessings' of the Holy Spirit of this discussion, then obviously your examples do not fit or apply here.
< Message edited by ..... -- 4/20/2008 2:04:09 AM >
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RE: :: Slain in the Spirit - 4/20/2008 10:42:18 AM
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earthless
Posts: 4737
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: where bbq pigeons roast....
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..... should run for political office.
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Probing Today's Religious Movements | Promoting Doctrinal Discernment & Critical Thinking | Providing Reasons for Christian Faith & Ethics
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RE: :: Slain in the Spirit - 4/20/2008 11:23:40 AM
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lw9
Posts: 1225
Joined: 7/22/2005
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I can see I need add a few things to the list of bogus non-answer statements that are unacceptable as 'evidence':
- It's of God because I say it is.
- It's of God because it made me feel good.
- It's of God because my experience was real.
- Unless you do as I do, you cannot be 'infilled' or spiritually led.
- Unless you do as I do, you are spiritually dead.
- You can't judge because you did not experience it.
- You can't judge anything because God is continually giving new revelations.
- God works in mysterious ways. That should cover everything.
- Even though I'm stating my opinions as fact, you have no right to question it and ask for scriptural proof.
And our all time favorite:
- You can't put God in a box!
_____________________________
Aperture Science. We do what we must because we can.
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RE: :: Slain in the Spirit - 4/20/2008 12:04:08 PM
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cybrjewls
Posts: 1395
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Why is the testimony of those that experience this not worthy to you? Why do you think that God gave you more discernment than others; where is that written? The same God that gave you discernment is giving these discernment too. Why is it written that some would have only a form of godliness while denying the Power of God?
No one needs to defend themselves about something that God is doing except to those who stand in Judgment of the Work, itself, which is what Pharisees and Sadducees did with Jesus' Works. God does not need our approval to do what He wants to do about things in His Church.
These do not say that they are worshipping a false God to lead others away from Him. These things are occurring in the Church. Who is teaching others to follow a false god, here?
God is edifying when He draws near to people; it does make us feel certain things. For example: My peace I give to you, not as the world gives give I to you. Love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, meekness, temperance.
The court of witnesses that do not believe the testimony of these are just like what has happened before with these things. God's Works do not need anyones carefull attention to be validated by any human court. Who elected you as Judge over these things?
The proof is in the video, you can see what is happening with your natural eyes. Therefore, it is written that men are without excuse.
quote:
ORIGINAL: lw9
I can see I need add a few things to the list of bogus non-answer statements that are unacceptable as 'evidence':
- It's of God because I say it is.
- It's of God because it made me feel good.
- It's of God because my experience was real.
- Unless you do as I do, you cannot be 'infilled' or spiritually led.
- Unless you do as I do, you are spiritually dead.
- You can't judge because you did not experience it.
- You can't judge anything because God is continually giving new revelations.
- God works in mysterious ways. That should cover everything.
- Even though I'm stating my opinions as fact, you have no right to question it and ask for scriptural proof.
And our all time favorite:
- You can't put God in a box!
< Message edited by ..... -- 4/20/2008 12:58:18 PM >
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RE: :: Slain in the Spirit - 4/20/2008 12:14:00 PM
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cybrjewls
Posts: 1395
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Greetings.
Where is your example, from Scripture, that these occurrences and phenomenon are satanic? That was the assertion that some had proposed, erroneously.
The prophets of baal had no power and no authority like this. Elijah asked: has your 'god' stepped aside?(to take a leak) No fire came down for them, and no answer was given to them except for the sign from God regarding The True God.
These were worshipping God in a Church and proposed to worship no other. There is order, for these things do not continue to happen after the meeting in the streets like demons would do with possessed people.
When the meeting is called, God shows up. When the Spirit is willing, the meeting adjourns. Be continually filled with The Holy Spirit for God gives The Spirit without measure, not as the world gives. Continually, and with great Grace. For by Grace we are saved through faith not by 'works' of quoting Scripture so that no person can boast. For if one boasts, let them boast about God.
quote:
ORIGINAL: lw9
quote:
prophetica: I, of course, did not advocated killing anyone.
Really? But this is a thread about 'in the Spirit' gifts and blessings, and you brought Elijah's killings into it as an example, so what other conclusion was there to make??
Can you not see the fallacy? If you cannot properly defend and connect the dots between your example of Elijah [which, by the way, was incorrect since the power of God did not come upon him until after the killing] and the modern day 'gifts and blessings' of the Holy Spirit of this discussion, then obviously your examples do not fit or apply here.
< Message edited by ..... -- 4/20/2008 12:56:24 PM >
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RE: :: Slain in the Spirit - 4/20/2008 1:01:00 PM
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cybrjewls
Posts: 1395
Status: offline
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In the same way you say:
-It's not of God because I say its not
-it's not of God because it made people feel certain feelings
-it's not of God because my experience was real
-Unless you do as I do, you are satanic and demon led
-Unless you do as I do, you are spiritually satanic
-You can judge if you feel like it
-God never talks anymore nor reveals anything
-God's ways are not mysterious to us for we are so great
-I want God to 'prove' things by me for my ways are greater
-My God is so great that He would even include these
Jesus said: you make The Word of God to be of no effect in your lives by your traditions teaching the rules taught by men as though it were more important than God and the souls of others.
I noticed many prayers for the deliverance of these under the experience of these phenomenon in this thread, didn't I?
I see that they are delivered! Your prayers are so effective, while The Spirit of God makes the whole congregation move! For if you say to a mountain 'be moved' in faith, it will be moved.
quote:
ORIGINAL: lw9
I can see I need add a few things to the list of bogus non-answer statements that are unacceptable as 'evidence':
- It's of God because I say it is.
- It's of God because it made me feel good.
- It's of God because my experience was real.
- Unless you do as I do, you cannot be 'infilled' or spiritually led.
- Unless you do as I do, you are spiritually dead.
- You can't judge because you did not experience it.
- You can't judge anything because God is continually giving new revelations.
- God works in mysterious ways. That should cover everything.
- Even though I'm stating my opinions as fact, you have no right to question it and ask for scriptural proof.
And our all time favorite:
- You can't put God in a box!
< Message edited by ..... -- 4/20/2008 1:18:36 PM >
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RE: :: Slain in the Spirit - 4/20/2008 1:54:09 PM
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lw9
Posts: 1225
Joined: 7/22/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
prophetica: In the same way you say:
-It's not of God because I say its not
Nope. I have nothing to do with it. It's not of God when God says it's not of Him.
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-it's not of God because it made people feel certain feelings
It's not of God when it contradicts scripture no matter what feelings were involved.
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-it's not of God because my experience was real
Can't answer that because it doesn't make any sense.
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-Unless you do as I do, you are satanic and demon led
-Unless you do as I do, you are spiritually satanic
Nope. Unlike others here, I've never claimed that someone cannot be 'filled with the Spirit' if they don't do it my way... which isn't even something I put forth. It's God's way we should be concerned about. If it contradicts God's word, then it's not God's way.
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-You can judge if you feel like it
I never said that. Christians should judge according to scripture, not according to mood.
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-God never talks anymore nor reveals anything
According to God, He does not speak through false prophets, false teachers, and false experiences. Go figure.
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-God's ways are not mysterious to us for we are so great
God's ways are mysterious, but I don't use that as an excuse to cover bogus manifestations and behave like an animal or a drunk.
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-I want God to 'prove' things by me for my ways are greater
Grasping at straws. God commands us to test everything through His word. If I thought I was greater, I would not appeal to His word and His wisdom and I would not post scriptural proof. I would bypass scripture and appeal to myself and my own opinion. But I don't, so your statement is false.
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prophetica: No one needs to defend themselves about something that God is doing except to those who stand in Judgment of the Work, itself, which is what Pharisees and Sadducees did with Jesus' Works. God does not need our approval to do what He wants to do about things in His Church.
And this proves what in regards to experiences vs. scripture?
quote:
God is edifying when He draws near to people; it does make us feel certain things.
And this proves what in regards to experiences vs. scripture?
quote:
The court of witnesses that do not believe the testimony of these are just like what has happened before with these things.
And this proves what in regards to experiences vs. scripture?
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God's Works do not need anyones carefull attention to be validated by any human court. Who elected you as Judge over these things?
And this proves what in regards to experiences vs. scripture? It's all just empty words and empty statements to fill the void.
quote:
The proof is in the video, you can see what is happening with your natural eyes. Therefore, it is written that men are without excuse.
You need to start reading the thread because I'm not going to keep repeating everything for you. No one is denying that the experiences are happening and are real.
The question that has been asked for the past 23 pages is: Where is the scriptural evidence that these specific experiences are spiritual blessings and gifts of God.
Either address that question with some solid scripture, or discontinue this discussion with me because I am not going to play this game with you any longer.
< Message edited by lw9 -- 4/20/2008 2:02:56 PM >
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Aperture Science. We do what we must because we can.
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RE: :: Slain in the Spirit - 4/20/2008 2:13:40 PM
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cybrjewls
Posts: 1395
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Amen. And since we believe the same God it is He who will justify or condemn us. I see, though, that you have provided no Scriptural support to show that these experiences are of the devil.
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ORIGINAL: lw9
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RE: :: Slain in the Spirit - 4/20/2008 2:24:21 PM
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1love1God1way
Posts: 1927
Joined: 5/16/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: .....
Amen. And since we believe the same God it is He who will justify or condemn us. I see, though, that you have provided no Scriptural support to show that these experiences are of the devil.
quote:
ORIGINAL: lw9
Scripture had already been provided prior to lw9's last post.
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-Ben-
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RE: :: Slain in the Spirit - 4/20/2008 2:30:00 PM
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cybrjewls
Posts: 1395
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No where in Scripture does these event occur or are mentioned as satanic. Show me the Scripture that says these things. I will show you that it is written in Scripture regarding the signs and wonders that were performed by God through a servant of God whose name is steven whom Saul gave approval to kill for he was judging the disciples who followed God.
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ORIGINAL: 1love1God1way
quote:
ORIGINAL: .....
Amen. And since we believe the same God it is He who will justify or condemn us. I see, though, that you have provided no Scriptural support to show that these experiences are of the devil.
quote:
ORIGINAL: lw9
Scripture had already been provided prior to lw9's last post.
< Message edited by ..... -- 4/20/2008 2:37:28 PM >
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RE: :: Slain in the Spirit - 4/20/2008 3:07:28 PM
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earthless
Posts: 4737
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: where bbq pigeons roast....
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prophetica, ....., .john, john., whatever,
In Acts 5:16, early in the apostolic age when the church was just getting started, we read that multitudes were being healed by the apostles. Twenty-five years later Paul, the greatest of all the apostles, could not be delivered from his own troublesome thorn (2 Corinthians 12:7-10).
Though he at one time seems to have had the ability to heal others at will (Acts 28:8), as Paul neared the end of his life he showed no evidence of such a gift. He advised Timothy to take a little wine for his stomach's sake, a common way of treating illness in that day (1 Timothy 5:23).
Later on, at the very end of his career, Paul left a beloved brother sick at Miletus (2 Timothy 4:20). He surely would have healed him if he could.
In the early pages of Acts, Jerusalem was filled with miracles. After the martyrdom of Stephen, however, no more miracles were recorded in that city. Something was changing.
The miracles of the apostolic age were not to be the pattern for succeeding generations of Christians. We have no mandate to see or perform miracles. We do have a mandate, however, to study and obey God's Word, which is able to make us wise and mature. And we do have a mandate to live by faith, not by sight (2 Corinthians 5:7).
John 14:12 records this promise from our Lord: "Truly, truly, I say to you, he who believes in Me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go to the Father." To listen to some contemporary advocates of signs and wonders ministry you would think this promise bypassed the apostolic age and is being fulfilled in their meetings.
"Greater works" does not mean more spectacular miracles; nothing in the context of John 14 speaks of supernatural signs and wonders. What is a greater work than raising the dead? John 5:20-21 indicates it is the giving of spiritual life to sinners.
Of course, the apostles' works were greater in scope, not in quality, than those of Jesus. They took the Gospel to the ends of the known world in their day. But much of that was accomplished after miracles had begun to pass from the scene.
Some charismatics allege that if we concede that the age of miracles is past, we espouse a deficient concept of God. Jerry Horner, associate professor of biblical literature at Oral Roberts University, said, "Who in the world would want a God who has lost all of His zip? Could God do one thing in one century but not in another century?.... Has God lost all of His power?"
Has God lost His zip? Has He done nothing significant in two thousand years? That's hardly the case.
All around us we see evidence of God's marvelous work: in the transforming new birth in the lives of millions around the world who trust Christ; in daily answers to prayer; in the providential mat5ching of people and resources to bring glory to Himself; in the resilience of His church, which has survived ruthless persecution and various internal assaults through the centuries and continues to do so today.
But God has not placed spokesmen with miracle-working power in the church today. You can be sure that if He did, they wouldn't resemble the charismatic miracle workers such as those we see on television or on the tent-meeting circuit.
Why would God authenticate bad theology? Why would He give miracle power to people who teach heresy? Yet every movement today that highlights miracles as a central theme is tainted with shoddy theology, confused and inconsistent doctrine, outright heresy, or a combination of these.
Ephesians 3:20 gives a promise for our age: Our Lord "is able to do exceeding abundantly beyond all that we ask or think, according to the power that works with us." What God does in and through us today is not what He did in the apostolic age.
He had a special purpose for the apostles and their miracles. and that purpose was served. He also has a special purpose for us, and it will be marvelous, because He is God and what He does is always marvelous.
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Probing Today's Religious Movements | Promoting Doctrinal Discernment & Critical Thinking | Providing Reasons for Christian Faith & Ethics
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RE: :: Slain in the Spirit - 4/20/2008 3:16:05 PM
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cybrjewls
Posts: 1395
Status: offline
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God is not a 'concept'. He is not reduced to our ways of thinking. He knows that our thoughts are not His Thoughts, and our ways are not His Ways. Christ took longer to heal one person and asked in stages if the person could see yet. He responded that he saw people walking around as trees. So Christ continued to pray and spit on the ground following God's example in what God was doing. Sometimes The Lord heals, sometimes He does not. I read that it was stated before that healing in stages was not biblical. I don't care what some say, I want people healed. Stages, or not. A Work of God is evident at Scripture regarding the differing Ways that God healed Through His Son. God's Glory has not ceased and The Kingdom of God still comes with Power as written. Some do not have faith, and it is written because they did not believe that He only 'could' heal a couple of sick people.
quote:
ORIGINAL: earthless
All around us we see evidence of God's marvelous work: in the transforming new birth in the lives of millions around the world who trust Christ; in daily answers to prayer; in the providential mat5ching of people and resources to bring glory to Himself; in the resilience of His church, which has survived ruthless persecution and various internal assaults through the centuries and continues to do so today.
But God has not placed spokesmen with miracle-working power in the church today. You can be sure that if He did, they wouldn't resemble the charismatic miracle workers such as those we see on television or on the tent-meeting circuit.
Why would God authenticate bad theology? Why would He give miracle power to people who teach heresy? Yet every movement today that highlights miracles as a central theme is tainted with shoddy theology, confused and inconsistent doctrine, outright heresy, or a combination of these.
Ephesians 3:20 gives a promise for our age: Our Lord "is able to do exceeding abundantly beyond all that we ask or think, according to the power that works with us." What God does in and through us today is not what He did in the apostolic age.
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RE: :: Slain in the Spirit - 4/20/2008 3:19:07 PM
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earthless
Posts: 4737
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: where bbq pigeons roast....
Status: online
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prophetica, ....., .john, john., whatever,
Your highly emotional reply did nothing to address the Scriptural context and evidence presented.
You choose to lower God's Word in favor of emotional appeal, I do not.
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Probing Today's Religious Movements | Promoting Doctrinal Discernment & Critical Thinking | Providing Reasons for Christian Faith & Ethics
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RE: :: Slain in the Spirit - 4/20/2008 3:20:41 PM
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cybrjewls
Posts: 1395
Status: offline
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It is written: Love. For God is Love. Love is emotional. Love your wives is the Sound instruction of our Lord.
quote:
ORIGINAL: earthless
prophetica, ....., .john, john., whatever,
Your highly emotional reply did nothing to address the Scriptural context and evidence presented.
You choose to lower God's Word in favor of emotional appeal, I do not.
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RE: :: Slain in the Spirit - 4/20/2008 3:22:03 PM
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earthless
Posts: 4737
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: where bbq pigeons roast....
Status: online
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quote:
ORIGINAL: .....
It is written: Love. For God is Love.
quote:
ORIGINAL: earthless
prophetica, ....., .john, john., whatever,
Your highly emotional reply did nothing to address the Scriptural context and evidence presented.
You choose to lower God's Word in favor of emotional appeal, I do not.
And? How does that brush away the factual comments made? It does not.
God is love, truth, justice, holy, and righteous. I look forward to your response to my last long post made to you.
Your highly emotional replies do not address the Scriptural context and evidence presented.
You choose to lower God's Word in favor of emotional appeal, I do not.
_____________________________
Probing Today's Religious Movements | Promoting Doctrinal Discernment & Critical Thinking | Providing Reasons for Christian Faith & Ethics
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RE: :: Slain in the Spirit - 4/20/2008 3:23:26 PM
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earthless
Posts: 4737
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: where bbq pigeons roast....
Status: online
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quote:
ORIGINAL: .....
It is written: Love. For God is Love. Love is emotional. Love your wives is the Sound instruction of our Lord.
Love is based on truth - and how does loving one's wife have anything to do with what we're all discussing? It's like you're on your own planet at times.
_____________________________
Probing Today's Religious Movements | Promoting Doctrinal Discernment & Critical Thinking | Providing Reasons for Christian Faith & Ethics
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RE: :: Slain in the Spirit - 4/20/2008 3:23:30 PM
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cybrjewls
Posts: 1395
Status: offline
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Your other postings regarding healing were answered, the Savior heals in stages at times. You said that He does not. It is written, that He did.
What you say is meaningless compared to what God says. What I say on my own is nothing compared to what God says. He does not need our testimony. We were given that Grace to bear witness to Who God is in our lives.
< Message edited by ..... -- 4/20/2008 3:30:23 PM >
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RE: :: Slain in the Spirit - 4/20/2008 3:24:47 PM
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earthless
Posts: 4737
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: where bbq pigeons roast....
Status: online
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quote:
ORIGINAL: .....
quote:
ORIGINAL: earthless
quote:
ORIGINAL: .....
It is written: Love. For God is Love.
quote:
ORIGINAL: earthless
prophetica, ....., .john, john., whatever,
Your highly emotional reply did nothing to address the Scriptural context and evidence presented.
You choose to lower God's Word in favor of emotional appeal, I do not.
And? How does that brush away the factual comments made? It does not.
God is love, truth, justice, holy, and righteous. I look forward to your response to my last long post made to you.
Your highly emotional replies do not address the Scriptural context and evidence presented.
You choose to lower God's Word in favor of emotional appeal, I do not.
Your post was answered, the Savior heals in stages at times. You said that He does not. It is written, that He did.
Way to misunderstand my post. Reread my post, I hope you can understand it the second time around. Let me know if you need me to break it down a little easier for you.
_____________________________
Probing Today's Religious Movements | Promoting Doctrinal Discernment & Critical Thinking | Providing Reasons for Christian Faith & Ethics
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RE: :: Slain in the Spirit - 4/20/2008 4:14:52 PM
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wintery
Posts: 897
Joined: 2/1/2007
From: nw alabama
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: earthless
Supposedly the presence of God is at these meetings in a mighty way. Strangely lacking however, is the biblical response to the awesome presence of almighty God.
I like this.
I'll also say that the _lack_ of human carpet cleaning activities does not show a _lack_ of God's presence in our lives or a lack of His favor.
An absence of "supernatural" healing does not show a lack of faith, the absence of "show"-type miracles does not mean that God doesn't hear you. Almighty God can reach you, give you peace, and do miracles in your life, even supernatural healing, or give you strength to walk through a situation, as He wills----no circus is necessary, you don't have to put on a show to try to earn it. God still answers a calm, sincere prayer--Psalm 51:17: The sacrifices of God are a broken spirit; a broken and contrite heart, O God, you will not despise.
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