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RE: :: Slain in the Spirit - 8/9/2007 7:00:36 AM
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FurGodWurLivin
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Ezra:
1. Actually, Paul did have a recorded instance of someone falling out while he preached. Unfortunately, that person was falling out of the second story window. I am not arguing that the appearance of Jesus is the same now as it was then, what I am saying is that the example of this not happening in the ministry of Jesus was not true. That being said, I think the experience of John in Revelation 1 is a good example of what happens to people that are TRULY "slain in the spirit". Though the appearance of Christ is not concious, it is real just the same. When we make theology around this topic, many times we neglect to talk about the fact that we are attempting to explain a spiritual world that we don't understand... so we really don't know what we are talking about anyway.
2. Immaterial. Falling down is falling down. You can split hairs all day about forwards or backwards, but if the hair you are splitting is on the wrong head, it really doesn't matter. As I said, if a spiritual revelation of Jesus is made to the spirit of the person being prayed for (a desirable outcome), then falling apart like some do would be expected.
3. I'm not defending every ministry that claims to have it's patrons "slain in the spirit". Rather, I am defending a spiritual phenomna that nobody truly knows everything about. And I seem to remember saying in my previous post that there are people who are undly influenced to fall over, but that is not always the case. I have seen people who claimed that the whole thing was hooey, but then the preacher prayed for them, didn't touch them, didn't really talk to them. All he said was "Jesus" and the person collapsed under conviction. Seeing as how conviction is a definite function of the spirit, then the spirit must have made the person collapse. Simple logic.
I do, however, find it interesting that of all things I said, this was the one thing you pulled out to attack.quote:
Given the doctrine and practice of the men who engage in this, one would be wise to totally avoid these shenanigans. As for that, it's something of a broad generalization. First off, everyone has gooky theology somewhere, by virtue of the fact that they are human. Secondly, I don't know a single person that doesn't sin or get off into their flesh every once in a while... because we are human. Thirdly, just about every denomination, ministry, and preacher has got a few strange traditions or ministerial practices because, once again, we are all human. For example, I could point to the Baptist church saying that the miracles of the Bible were done happening at the end of Acts and say that they are to be avoided because they don't believe in an active function of the Holy Spirit. I could point to the Charismatics and say that they don't have enough order in their services and should be abandoned. The point is that there is alot to the spirit world that we would be very arrogant inded to claim that we understand fully.
As I said earlier, if you have three options and neither of them are completely true, then there must be a fourth option that is true, and combines the other three. That is not heretical or superficial, rather it is what is obviously the case. When it comes to this topic (a rather pointless discussion, as I noted earlier), you have some people that claim it is definitely fake, you have people who claim that it is absolutely real because it happened to them. Then the people who don't believe it start claiming that the people who do believe it were either hypnotized (unprovable) or wanted to have it happen (assumption). Then the people who do believe in it start claiming that the people who don't aren't really "New Testament Christians" because they don't believe in the work of the Holy Spirit (judgemental). So lets avoid all the butching around the topic and cut straight to chase. Nobody's opinion is changing anyway... Some people take something of a cerebral approach and say it can't be real. Other people take a more spacey approach and say that it must be true. I'm going to stand in the middle and say that just like any other part of Christianity, it is abused by some, but that doesn't negate the real either.
Adam
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RE: :: Slain in the Spirit - 8/9/2007 9:53:52 AM
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sunshinesoprano
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I've not read all the posts, because in my experience they tend to just go 'round and 'round in conversations like these, but I will put in my two cents worth.
I'm a Baptist, but I'm a singer and have been to MANY churches. I've seen the gammot of spiritual expressions. In my early days of travelling I was really skeptical and saw what I felt was a lot of rubbish, showy baloney.
After I left that group I retreated back to the safety of a non-emotional first Baptist church.
Then I started singing with two Pentecostals and I learned a whole new, genuine world of spirituality, but NOT emotionalism.
I've seen people slain in the spirit but they weren't pushed or hypnotised. We were simply praying over them and down they went. I've been prayed over, had catchers behind me, but never fell. Perhaps it's because I was scared to, or perhaps it's because I didn't want to. Either way, no one pushed me down. It was all real.
I think it goes both ways and I also think that to make a blanket condemnation of the whole thing is a bit presumptuous and out of place. It's no one's place to lay judgement on another's spiritual experiences in generalities. The way I serve God and have a relationship with Him may be different than everyone else, so just because it's different doesn't mean it's wrong.
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RE: :: Slain in the Spirit - 8/9/2007 10:01:25 AM
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earthless
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quote:
ORIGINAL: sunshinesoprano
I think it goes both ways and I also think that to make a blanket condemnation of the whole thing is a bit presumptuous and out of place.
No one has done that. What is being done is testing the practice in light of Scripture. Nothing wrong with that.
quote:
ORIGINAL: sunshinesoprano
I've not read all the posts
It shows and it is a shame you didn't read my two long ones (as I am the thread starter) I believe it would have cleared up a lot of what was misunderstood.
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RE: :: Slain in the Spirit - 8/9/2007 10:20:12 AM
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sunshinesoprano
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Actually, earthless, apparently I did because I read the entire first page and gave up on page 2.
I sometimes think people like to hear themselves talk. Yes, you have placed judgement, though you may not believe you have. No where in scripture does it say we're supposed to jump up and down and scream to the Lord, either. But it happens.
Everything that is good and true can also be made evil by people with power trips who long for attention.
Your initial post wasn't so much testing as it was a blanket statement of condemnation. I'm not wholly disagreeing with you, because I concur that there is much abuse, but I think you need to watch how you come across if you're simply "testing" things as you say. 
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RE: :: Slain in the Spirit - 8/9/2007 10:48:05 AM
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Kat_D
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quote:
Rather, I am defending a spiritual phenomna that nobody truly knows everything about.
FurGodWerLivin,
Just wondering how you know so much about this spiritual phenomena? Mind if I ask what church you are associated with?
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"...And God will wipe away every tear from their eyes...no more death, sorrow, nor crying."
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RE: :: Slain in the Spirit - 8/9/2007 10:56:27 AM
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Bro_Shane
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quote:
ORIGINAL: FurGodWurLivin
Actually, Paul did have a recorded instance of someone falling out while he preached. Unfortunately, that person was falling out of the second story window. I am not arguing that the appearance of Jesus is the same now as it was then, what I am saying is that the example of this not happening in the ministry of Jesus was not true. That being said, I think the experience of John in Revelation 1 is a good example of what happens to people that are TRULY "slain in the spirit". Though the appearance of Christ is not concious, it is real just the same. When we make theology around this topic, many times we neglect to talk about the fact that we are attempting to explain a spiritual world that we don't understand... so we really don't know what we are talking about anyway.
Acts 20:9 And there sat in a window a certain young man named Eutychus, being fallen into a deep sleep: and as Paul was long preaching, he sunk down with sleep, and fell down from the third loft, and was taken up dead.
Eutycus did not "fall out" while Paul preached, he was sleeping and fell from a window - not quite the same thing.
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RE: :: Slain in the Spirit - 8/9/2007 11:22:50 AM
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earthless
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Bro_Shane
quote:
ORIGINAL: FurGodWurLivin
Actually, Paul did have a recorded instance of someone falling out while he preached. Unfortunately, that person was falling out of the second story window. I am not arguing that the appearance of Jesus is the same now as it was then, what I am saying is that the example of this not happening in the ministry of Jesus was not true. That being said, I think the experience of John in Revelation 1 is a good example of what happens to people that are TRULY "slain in the spirit". Though the appearance of Christ is not concious, it is real just the same. When we make theology around this topic, many times we neglect to talk about the fact that we are attempting to explain a spiritual world that we don't understand... so we really don't know what we are talking about anyway.
Acts 20:9 And there sat in a window a certain young man named Eutychus, being fallen into a deep sleep: and as Paul was long preaching, he sunk down with sleep, and fell down from the third loft, and was taken up dead.
Eutycus did not "fall out" while Paul preached, he was sleeping and fell from a window - not quite the same thing.
You beat me to it! It was a poor poor example to use to try to justify the practice.
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RE: :: Slain in the Spirit - 8/9/2007 12:16:34 PM
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Covaan_Meshuga
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Please list me among those who have never been slain in some spirit.
Also please list me as one who intends never to be so.
I have told around CW of the time I saw it. It was the complete antithesis of impressive.
Had a lady tell me one time how I ought to go to someone and have it done. When asked why, all she could tell me was "It feels so good." No spiritual enlightenment, no added revelation, it just "feels so good." I can study the Bible and make a new discovery and feel so good. I can play with a grandchild and feel so good. I can drink cold chocolate milk and feel so good. I can feed the poor and feel so good. And none of these will give me a concussion, expose me immodestly, or endanger my eternal soul.
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"Ladies and gentlemen, there are things that you will only be able to learn by the weakest among us, and when you snuff them out, you are the one that loses." ~~Gianna Jesson, 1977 LA, CA, saline abortion survivor
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RE: :: Slain in the Spirit - 8/9/2007 3:23:56 PM
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sunshinesoprano
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I'm not defending nor supporting the practice. All I'm saying is that I think it's a bit presumptuous for anyone to judge how someone may worship God. If they become so overwhelmed in the Spirit that they cannot stand, so be it.
I do come against the fakers, the ones who do it for their own glory and entertainment purposes. I know that our bass singer who is also a preacher, who has also been slain in the spirit, is very skeptical of the motives of some, thinking that many women do it for the attention of men in the church.
My point is also not to accept things that aren't scriptural, but many things probably aren't detailed in the scriptures that are ok. I believe each Christian needs to seek the Lord, pray, and decide for themselves whether or not something is right/wrong, or whatever without someone else telling them what they should or shouldn't do.
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RE: :: Slain in the Spirit - 8/9/2007 4:50:36 PM
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earthless
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Thanks, but I'll stick to the Bible to know if something is right or wrong and not human emotions which are fickle.
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RE: :: Slain in the Spirit - 8/9/2007 7:10:01 PM
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Eutychus
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Bro_Shane
Eutycus did not "fall out" while Paul preached, he was sleeping and fell from a window - not quite the same thing.
Maybe, maybe not. Somebody may have snuck up behind him and pushed the poor boy like the right reverend mr. Hinn does to his subjects and old Euty went out like a lamp and plummeted. They apparently didn't have trained catchers like the right reverend mr. Hinn does - progress, ya know.
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RE: :: Slain in the Spirit - 8/9/2007 8:16:38 PM
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davelinde
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I have had some hard to explain emotional experiences -- some later seemed to have meaning, while others did not. In general though, I know I am not that given to this kind of thing. Chalk it up to personality.
Still... I think the litmus test is "what did it mean".
I once had a conversation with someone who gave me feedback on the lack of a "free flow of the Holy Spirit" in our church and in things I did. They spoke about experiencing worship where everyone just fell to the floor and all "knew" that Jesus had just walked down the aisle of that church. Well... I am surely holding onto the "where two or three are gathered" promise -- but this seemed to describe something special and wonderful and... well... why wouldn't I want that?
So I asked -- what was it that you all learned from that... I mean, what happened in that group of people... why was this such a great thing for the kingdom? What was the significance of this experience?
They had no answer (I think the question had never crossed their mind). The experience just seemed to be an experience for the sake of experience. So... I'm not so concerned if there's no fruit in it. (...and btw - I agree, the whole "slain" thing does not match up with anything scripture tells me to be looking for).
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RE: :: Slain in the Spirit - 8/9/2007 10:55:02 PM
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FurGodWurLivin
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Okay, I seem to remember saying once that this is a pointless discussion, so I will make the point again.
Bro. Shane, the example of Eutychius was a joke. I thought it would come across that way, sorry it didn't.
Kat_d. My previous church affiliation was non-denominational. Not that it makes any difference. I have not said anything that follows anyone's religious mindset to this point. However, I will say that just because something isn't in the Bible doesn't mean it isn't God. Currently I serve as an intercessory missionary at the International House of Prayer in Kansas City, MO... stately non-denominational. Once again, that doesn't amount to a whole hooey of anything. If you wish to pass me off as a religious fruit-cake, try again. As for how much I know about this topic in particular, I know random stuff about random stuff. I grew up around this stuff quite a bit... when I was about 6 yrs old my family went to many Rodney Howard Browne meetings. That's all there is to that.
Adam
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RE: :: Slain in the Spirit - 8/9/2007 10:56:34 PM
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FurGodWurLivin
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to be fully correct, I also never said I know everything there is to know about this. As someone who had a vision of Jesus (one that pretty much saved my spiritual life), I do know that from personal experience. And the scenario I outlined in my previous post about people who do and don't believe in this, it still stands.
Adam
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RE: :: Slain in the Spirit - 8/10/2007 8:16:12 AM
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sunshinesoprano
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quote:
ORIGINAL: earthless
Thanks, but I'll stick to the Bible to know if something is right or wrong and not human emotions which are fickle.
I do, too, and I've never been slain in the spirit, either, though I've seen it and believe that it was real. It's not my cup of tea.
I just think people should be careful about placing judgement on people's personal experiences. I think it's the same as some folks liking rock 'n' roll Christian and some liking bluegrass Christian music. The Bible doesn't say which is right.
I really don't care what you think about me, because you placed judgement on me in the statement you made above. I'll refrain from making backhanded comments about anyone...
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RE: :: Slain in the Spirit - 8/10/2007 8:24:58 AM
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earthless
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I did not place judgment on you, why do you have that hang up sis?
I simply said "no, thanks.. not for me... I want to adhere to the Bible." As for why you believe it was real when Scripture does not provide a foundation for it is beyond me. But we all have our free will to believe what we please.
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RE: :: Slain in the Spirit - 8/10/2007 10:24:10 AM
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wintery
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quote:
ORIGINAL: FurGodWurLivin
When we make theology around this topic, many times we neglect to talk about the fact that we are attempting to explain a spiritual world that we don't understand... so we really don't know what we are talking about anyway.
How about looking at a charismatic world where a Scriptural basis may be secondary to someone's "experience"? (or dream, vision, "revelation")
quote:
ORIGINAL: FurGodWurLivin
I have seen people who claimed that the whole thing was hooey, but then the preacher prayed for them, didn't touch them, didn't really talk to them. All he said was "Jesus" and the person collapsed under conviction. Seeing as how conviction is a definite function of the spirit, then the spirit must have made the person collapse. Simple logic.
Hardly complete or conclusive, bro. The fact that they got in line dispenses with their objections.
quote:
ORIGINAL: FurGodWurLivin
For example, I could point to the Baptist church saying that the miracles of the Bible were done happening at the end of Acts and say that they are to be avoided because they don't believe in an active function of the Holy Spirit. I could point to the Charismatics and say that they don't have enough order in their services and should be abandoned.
If liturgical, evangelical and charismatic are the three little pigs, which one would the big bad wolf not get? How does a Christian stand on a firm foundation? By not knowing what we're doing? (don't get riled, I'm being serious.)
quote:
ORIGINAL: FurGodWurLivin
The point is that there is alot to the spirit world that we would be very arrogant inded to claim that we understand fully.
"spirit world"? "spiritual phenomena"? Do you see that anything, any_thing can be excused and accepted by claiming that we must just accept it without relying on a Scriptural basis.
quote:
ORIGINAL: FurGodWurLivin
I'm going to stand in the middle and say that just like any other part of Christianity, it is abused by some, but that doesn't negate the real either.
Adam
I'm all for what's "real" with a sound reliance on Scripture, and we need discernment for meetings where people may claim all sorts of things that may not be true. If God is touching someone, fine. I only mentioned a few items in my earlier post, that was hardly the whole quiver of my experience and involvement in charismatic/non-denom meetings. Surely you'll agree a line has to be drawn somewhere. If someone needs prayer, that is one thing. Lining up to see if God will knock you down is somewhat like standing in line for a theme park ride. You would have to be on Star Trek to find someone who could go down in front of perhaps hundreds of people, hear preachers hollering "Jesus" this and that, see your friends finding the carpet, be expecting a thrilling spiritual experience, and _not_ be excited, nervous and possibly overwhelmed with emotion, whether or not if God is answering their prayer, perhaps in spite of the atmosphere.
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RE: :: Slain in the Spirit - 8/10/2007 11:00:29 AM
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Kat_D
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quote:
Kat_d. My previous church affiliation was non-denominational. Not that it makes any difference. I have not said anything that follows anyone's religious mindset to this point. However, I will say that just because something isn't in the Bible doesn't mean it isn't God. Currently I serve as an intercessory missionary at the International House of Prayer in Kansas City, MO... stately non-denominational. Once again, that doesn't amount to a whole hooey of anything. If you wish to pass me off as a religious fruit-cake, try again. As for how much I know about this topic in particular, I know random stuff about random stuff. I grew up around this stuff quite a bit... when I was about 6 yrs old my family went to many Rodney Howard Browne meetings. That's all there is to that.
Rodney Howard Brown and Mike Bickle...two controversial guys... the Toronto Blessing/Holy Laughter movement and the Kansas City Prophets. Thanks for sharing, now I understand where you are coming from.
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"...And God will wipe away every tear from their eyes...no more death, sorrow, nor crying."
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RE: :: Slain in the Spirit - 8/10/2007 11:06:53 AM
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earthless
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Kat_D
quote:
Kat_d. My previous church affiliation was non-denominational. Not that it makes any difference. I have not said anything that follows anyone's religious mindset to this point. However, I will say that just because something isn't in the Bible doesn't mean it isn't God. Currently I serve as an intercessory missionary at the International House of Prayer in Kansas City, MO... stately non-denominational. Once again, that doesn't amount to a whole hooey of anything. If you wish to pass me off as a religious fruit-cake, try again. As for how much I know about this topic in particular, I know random stuff about random stuff. I grew up around this stuff quite a bit... when I was about 6 yrs old my family went to many Rodney Howard Browne meetings. That's all there is to that.
Rodney Howard Brown and Mike Bickle...two controversial guys... the Toronto Blessing/Holy Laughter movement and the Kansas City Prophets. Thanks for sharing, now I understand where you are coming from.
That explains a lot.
Don't even get me started on the Toronto "Blessing", "Holy" Laughter and the Kansas City "Prophets".
Each one of these three can fill up 100 pages each. Ripe with audio and video clips.
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RE: :: Slain in the Spirit - 8/10/2007 11:10:59 AM
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wintery
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quote:
ORIGINAL: earthless
That explains a lot.
Don't even get me started on the Toronto "Blessing", "Holy" Laughter and the Kansas City "Prophets".
Each one of these three can fill up 100 pages each. Ripe with audio and video clips.
Too bad this thread isn't about KC Prophets, Bickle, Bob Jones and I don't recall seeing anyone on CW discuss these. I thought maybe nobody had heard of them. :)
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