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RE: Lordship salvation and no other - 7/30/2007 10:37:21 PM
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Gloryandgrace
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quote:
That is not faith alone apart from works.
Only according to you Graham.
John
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Isa 42:6 I the LORD have called thee in righteousness, and will hold thine hand, and will keep thee, and give thee for a covenant of the people, for a light of the Gentiles.....
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RE: Lordship salvation and no other - 7/31/2007 12:39:27 AM
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lmartuneac
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To All:
Some one posted this, quote:
“Properly speaking, the Lordship position insists that a commitment to obedience is mandatory.”
You replied, quote:
“This is just plain false. The Lordship position, as advocated by John MacArthur at least, does not insist that obedience in mandatory for salvation.”
I would have to correct you on that, for example:
Marc T. Mueller of Dr. MacArthur's Grace Community Church in Sun Valley, California wrote, quote:
“The Saviorhood of Christ is actually contingent on obedience to His Lordship.” It is important to note that Marc T. Mueller identifies the lordship of Christ as the key element upon which man must act to be saved. You find this theme consistent with all pro-lordship advocates.
John MacArthur wrote, quote:
“Thus in a sense we pay the ultimate price for salvation when our sinful self is nailed to a cross. . . . It is an exchange of all that we are for all that Christ is. And it denotes implicit obedience, full surrender to the lordship of Christ. Nothing less can qualify as saving faith” (The Gospel According to Jesus, p. 140)
Scripture presents a better answer than demanding lifelong obedience to Christ at the time of, and for salvation.
LS demands an upfront “whole-hearted commitment” to living a godly life for the reception of salvation.
LM
_____________________________
"Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that ye may know how ye ought to answer every man," (Col. 4:6).
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RE: Lordship salvation and no other - 7/31/2007 2:43:28 AM
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Ezra
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Larry:
quote:
But the issue in #139 was whether or not to flee sin as a precondition for salvation.
That is not exactly how it was presented, but as you will note below, it is merely a strawman issue.
quote:
“Commands of God to flee sin,” can never be an evangelistic message to the lost. I’m not sure that you are implying this in the quote from you above.
Another way to exprees "flee sin" is to say "Repent" -- turn from your sins and idols. And repentance is definitely a condition for salvation -- "Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out" (Acts 3:19). So are we now going to play semantic games?
quote:
The lost man can’t flee sin, and he can’t promise to do so. If he promises to “flee sin” he is offering a work to God for salvation and this corrupts the simplicity that is in Christ (2 Cor. 11:3). Flee sin s no different that promising to turn over a new leaf, to reform his life. That is not faith, it is not repentance, and it is not the Gospel!
The lost man can "flee from the wrath to come" by repenting and being converted -- experiencing the New Birth. So this is simply semantics. The first words from the lips of Christ in His public ministry were "Repent, for the kingdom of Heaven is at hand". In effect, Christ said "Flee sin".
quote:
Lordship Salvation is man-centered, works based message, that frustrates the grace of God (Gal. 2:21).
How can this be true, when the genuine Gospel message is "Believe on the LORD Jesus Christ and thou shalt be saved"?. Notice that "Lord" comes before "Jesus" and "Christ", and there is no mention of man and his wonderful wisdom or astounding good works.
As to a works-based message, there are some who foolishly believe that repentance means "do good works". It means turn wholeheartedly from sins to the Savior. A radical change of heart, mind, will, direction, and life.
As to the grace of God, it cannot be divorced from the commandment to be holy -- "Be ye holy, for I am holy". If a sinner will come to the Savior, he must forsake his unholiness and unrighteousness. Otherwise it is a mere profession of faith, which brings ultimate condemnation.
And that is what so-called "Lordship salvation" is battling.
_____________________________
And whosoever will, let him take the Water of Life freely. Revelation 22:17
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RE: Lordship salvation and no other - 7/31/2007 9:55:56 AM
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lmartuneac
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Ezra
As to a works-based message, there are some who foolishly believe that repentance means "do good works". It means turn wholeheartedly from sins to the Savior. A radical change of heart, mind, will, direction, and life.
As to the grace of God, it cannot be divorced from the commandment to be holy -- "Be ye holy, for I am holy". If a sinner will come to the Savior, he must forsake his unholiness and unrighteousness. Otherwise it is a mere profession of faith, which brings ultimate condemnation.
And that is what so-called "Lordship salvation" is battling.
Good morning:
Your definition of repentance is not a biblical one. A quote:
"radical change of life...forsake his unholiness," are decisions to change one's behavior. These are works based decisions. The sinner, in the LS interpretation, is being told that he must make a commitment to change his behavior to receive the gift of eternal life, to be born again. Lost man cannot turn from sin, he can only turn to the Savior to deliver him from the penalty and power of sin.
LS's repentance (and other misinterpretations of Scripture), turn the Gospel of Deliverance from sin into a message of bondage. I encourage readers/lurkers to read:
The Relationship Between God's Grace & Lordship Legalism
I am not going to do a long reply here on repentance. My book has an 11 page chapter titled: What Is Biblical Repentance? For a snap-shot of the LS misinterpretation of Repentance, go to my site and read:
How Does the Lordship Advocate Define Repentance?
You wrote, "And that is what so-called "Lordship salvation" is battling."
I know exactly what you (LS) are battling, and I appreciate the sincerity of it. The problem of professing Christians that do not live up to their profession. Professing Christians who live more like the Devil? Right?
Here is an excerpt from my book on how I address this issue,
quote:
"Many share a common frustration over the examples we see in our churches today of people who profess Christ as Savior, but seem to live more like the Devil. There are, of course, people in Bible believing churches that are professing Christ, but never received Him as their Savior. These, Lord willing, shall one day get saved, or they will likely move on. No sinner can be born again if he prays a prayer to escape death and Hell, but fully intends to continue in his sinful ways. There is no genuine faith or repentance in that. Problems begin, however, when a commitment to certain expected behavior is made a condition for receiving the free gift of salvation. "
The remedy for the loose living of professing Christians, the hope of making that problem go away, is NOT found in changing the terms of the Gospel, which is what Lordship Salvation does.
LS is a man-centered ("forsake unholiness," etc) works based message that frustrates grace (Gal 2:21).
LM
_____________________________
"Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that ye may know how ye ought to answer every man," (Col. 4:6).
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RE: Lordship salvation and no other - 7/31/2007 1:03:45 PM
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Gloryandgrace
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Hello lmartuneac:
Evidently to you repentance is optional. To Jesus it was not optional.
We cannot believe you over against The Lord Jesus Christ.
If you think repentance is optional the definition you place upon repentance will no doubt satisfy an optional usage.
You didnt respond to posts 143, 144, 146.
I take that to mean that you conceed somewhat like you felt Nathan did because he didnt respond to you on your question on repentance?
I suppose "repent for the kingdom of God is at hand" is false teaching?
Or Mt 3:2 And saying, Repent ye: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.
Mr 6:12 And they went out, and preached that men should repent.
Ac 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
Ac 17:30 And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:
Is this repentance being preached to the Believers? No, it is expressed toward the unsaved.
You are not teaching the scriptures but a version of your own theology that is foreign to the scriptures.
Not only this, but I figured you might actually interpret scripture, allow all of us to see what frames your thinking and allow us to see how you handle the word of God. This is the central point. Lets see why you believe what you believe. Calling Lordship false carries no weight and it surely doesnt prove anything.
Deal with the texts I gave you earlier. Deal with the repentance texts. Banging away at Nathan or John and not proving your point is useless. Its one thing to write a book that rebutts LS its another thing to prove it scripturally. So far I have yet to see anyone offer any rebuttals that prove Lordship is false, instead I see those who believe it able to freely open the scripture with little to no effort demolish your viewpoint.
By the way feel free to ask me that question again
quote:
“Nevertheless among the chief rulers also many believed on him; but because of the Pharisees they did not confess him, lest they should be put out of the synagogue: For they loved the praise of men more than the praise of God,” (John 12:42-43). The Bible says they were not open about, and would not confess a “change of allegiance.” Did they biblically repent; were they believers?
I posted the above twice to Nathan’s attention at Pulpit Magazine, but he never replied to it. It is a question Lordship advocates cannot answer!
Ill answer you.
It might be that Nathan didnt answer you because the answer is patently obvious.
37 ¶ But though he had done so many miracles before them, yet they believed not on him:
38 That the saying of Esaias the prophet might be fulfilled, which he spake, Lord, who hath believed our report? and to whom hath the arm of the Lord been revealed?
39 Therefore they could not believe, because that Esaias said again,
40 He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart; that they should not see with their eyes, nor understand with their heart, and be converted, and I should heal them.
41 These things said Esaias, when he saw his glory, and spake of him.
42 ¶ Nevertheless among the chief rulers also many believed on him; but because of the Pharisees they did not confess him, lest they should be put out of the synagogue:
43 For they loved the praise of men more than the praise of God.
The last verse is the telling statement on the rulers.
They would rather have a secret Christ and open praise from men.
I consider their belief the same kind of belief that Nicodemus had, a belief that did not obtain the kingdom of God to see it or enter it because he was not born again.
Applying this against this text.
Matt 10:32 Whosoever therefore shall confess me before men, him will I confess also before my Father which is in heaven.
33 But whosoever shall deny me before men, him will I also deny before my Father which is in heaven.
Can you imagine? Keeping silent about Jesus keeps one from heaven? Their belief was insufficient to gain the "praise of God". But as we read in Matt 10 it is enough to gain the denial of Jesus before the Father.
John
_____________________________
Isa 42:6 I the LORD have called thee in righteousness, and will hold thine hand, and will keep thee, and give thee for a covenant of the people, for a light of the Gentiles.....
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RE: Lordship salvation and no other - 7/31/2007 1:20:47 PM
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Gloryandgrace
Posts: 484
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quote:
Avoid the dangerous error of taking what should be the RESULT of salvation and making it the REQUIREMENT of salvation: It is because I am saved that I surrender to His Lordship (Rom. 12:1-2). It is because I am saved that I turn from sin and begin to learn what it means to live unto righteousness (1 Pet. 2:24). It is because I am saved that I follow Him in willing obedience (1 John 2:3-5). It is because I am saved that I agree to the terms of discipleship and begin to learn all that discipleship involves (Luke chapter 14).
lmartuneac posted:
I would say avoid the dangerous error of taking what is required of Jesus Christ the Lord
"Repentance" and turning into an option for salvation.
Its easy to string long sentences of thought together that prove your point by baffling the unlearned with wise sounding conclusions. But to be biblically correct is another matter.
I read that article where I quoted above, it is intermixed with truth and error. In the end what you come away with is as the responding posters to it replied on the blog...."Amen. Good post."
Fortunately someone read and knows a little better.
quote:
First of all, may I say that there is no way that a sinner can understand all about the Lordship of Christ until he is regenerated. It is, in my opinion, the greatest weakness of the case for this so-called "Lordship salvation".
Secondly, just what exactly does "believe" mean. Please don't quote a song for Scriptural definitions. While I love that song, it has nothing to do with the Greek word, translated "believe". It is more that just "simple belief".
Thirdly, what is repentance? By the way, no where in the Scriptures are we told that repentance is "from unbelief". That is a man-made interpretation. The Bible says "repentance from sin" "repentance from dead works" "turning from God to idols", etc.
Fourthly, the reason we are having this conversation today is a result of shallow preaching on salvation and repentance. These "reformed Baptists" or "deep-water Presbyterians" have struck a nerve with us because of our own failings in being true to God's definitions of "believe" and "repent".
If salvation were as "easy" as some proclaim, then the Lord Jesus did an injustice to the rich young ruler. Jesus never asked him to repent of unbelief. He asked him to be "willing" to give up all.
Art Dunham
I noticed that you didnt answer Art on the rich young ruler either.
John
_____________________________
Isa 42:6 I the LORD have called thee in righteousness, and will hold thine hand, and will keep thee, and give thee for a covenant of the people, for a light of the Gentiles.....
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RE: Lordship salvation and no other - 7/31/2007 8:16:53 PM
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GrahamCracker
Posts: 1963
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Gloryandgrace
quote:
That is not faith alone apart from works.
Only according to you Graham.
John
Question then: Is faith alone enough? Is obedience also a precondition for salvation?
John MacArthur has already said that he does not believe obedience is simply obeying the command to believe but that the requirement for obedience is more than that.
If faith alone (sola fide) is not sufficient for salvation, then there is another requirement for salvation besides faith.
_____________________________
Larry
Sure we're under the law, everybody knows that!
When He said, "A new covenant," He has made the first obsolete. But whatever is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to disappear. (Heb 10:13)
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RE: Lordship salvation and no other - 7/31/2007 9:34:22 PM
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Ezra
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quote:
Question then: Is faith alone enough? Is obedience also a precondition for salvation? ... If faith alone (sola fide) is not sufficient for salvation, then there is another requirement for salvation besides faith.
Faith alone is enough, provided it is genuine saving faith. And genuine saving faith cannot be divorced from repentance (just as Lord cannot be isolated from Jesus and Christ). Faith (true faith) and repentance are two sides of the same coin, therefore inseparable, as the apostle Paul revealed long ago (and as I also pointed out to you long ago):
"Testifying both to the Jews, and also to the Greeks, repentance toward God, and faith toward our Lord Jesus Christ" (Acts 20:21).
Notice carefully that Paul integrates Lord into the designation for Christ here as well as in Acts 16:31, because the acknowledgement of His Lordship by the sinner is essential to salvation. You cannot be saved unless you believe on Jesus as "the Lord Jesus Christ".
Evangelicalism, and particularly neo-evangelicalism, deliberately omitted from the preaching of the Gospel the essential ingredients of the Gospel. Words and phrases such as sin, sinner, wrath, repentance, propitiation, blood, Lord Jesus Christ, and obedience to the Gospel were set aside, and another gospel was concocted -- something that feels warm and fuzzy, but does not bring the sinner to repentance.
Therefore today we are questioning whether Scripture teaches that the sinner must flee sins and idols, when it is plain as day that metanoia in Scripture means precisely that -- "Except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish".
This shows what a sorry pass evangelical Christianity has come to. How the Lord must weep at the mutilation of the Gospel.
_____________________________
And whosoever will, let him take the Water of Life freely. Revelation 22:17
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RE: Lordship salvation and no other - 7/31/2007 11:45:43 PM
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crankius
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I agree, Ezra. However, it's clear that "repentance" can be widely defined by some.
How much can a dead person completely leave sin behind? It takes the washing and regeneration of the Holy Spirit to enable a "slave to sin" to obey the Spirit and walk in the light.
All must repent when they believe on the Son of God, but we need to be more clear on what we think scripture means by repentance for the unbeliever (the unregenerate) coming to God.
This is how Wayne Grudem defines repentance: "Repentance is a heartfelt sorrow for sin, a renouncing of it, and a sincere commitment to forsake it and walk in obedience to Christ."
Grudem goes on to state, "We cannot say that someone has to actually live that changed life over a period of time before repentance can be genuine, or else repentance would be turned into a kind of obedience that we could do to merit salvation of ourselves. Of course, genuine repentance will result in a changed life..."
I also think we need to be clear that a new believer is to no longer seek his own way, but seek the Lord's way (recognizing Christ as Lord), but may be unclear on exactly what sin they harbor. The Holy Spirit convicts us of our individual sins, and we may not immediately recognize all our individual sins of our previous unsaved life. Think of the Corinthians who boasted about keeping in the sexual sin--in their society, sexual sin was dominant and they had difficulty seeing their own guilt in harboring sexual sin.
Paul did not ask them to question their salvation, but instead called them brothers and instructed them to follow God's wisdom. I'm afraid that some who hold to an extreme Lordship Salvation view would have written to the Corinthians and told them to question their salvation.
_____________________________
Do not be overly righteous, Nor be overly wise: Why should you destroy yourself?
Ecclesiastes 7:16
He Himself is our peace! Ephesians 2:14:a
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RE: Lordship salvation and no other - 8/1/2007 12:38:44 AM
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lmartuneac
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Gloryandgrace
Evidently to you repentance is optional... If you think repentance is optional the definition you place upon repentance will no doubt satisfy an optional usage.
John:
Sorry to be blunt, but reckless statements like those above are why I am not going to interact with you. FWIW, I am on record, not only in my book, but also at numerous sites as steadfastly maintaining that biblical repentance is a necessary component for salvation.
If you visit this section of my blog you will find that I take on Zane Hodges, not only for his "Crossless" gospel, but over his radical departure from the biblical definition of repentance. Hodges is as extreme at his far end of the theological pendulum swing as John MacArthur is at his extreme end. Polar opposites and both wrong.
That is all I have for you.
Kind regards,
LM
_____________________________
"Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that ye may know how ye ought to answer every man," (Col. 4:6).
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RE: Lordship salvation and no other - 8/1/2007 12:50:15 AM
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Ezra
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quote:
ORIGINAL: crankius
I agree, Ezra. However, it's clear that "repentance" can be widely defined by some.
Which is really quite unnecessary, given the clear teaching of Scripture, both OT & NT.
quote:
How much can a dead person completely leave sin behind? It takes the washing and regeneration of the Holy Spirit to enable a "slave to sin" to obey the Spirit and walk in the light.
The issue is not so much as "how much can a dead person leave behind?" as "how serious is this sinner about the Savior?" Of course it takes the power of the Holy Spirit to overcome our sin nature, but before that the Holy Spirit will convict the sinner through the Gospel to turn away from his sins and idols in order to turn to the Savior. That's what happened on the Day of Pentecost, so please study Acts 2 and see the connection between conviction and repentance.
quote:
"Repentance is a heartfelt sorrow for sin, a renouncing of it, and a sincere commitment to forsake it and walk in obedience to Christ." Grudem
Grudem just confirmed what I stated above. Renounce sin = flee from sin = turn away from sin.
quote:
Grudem goes on to state, "We cannot say that someone has to actually live that changed life over a period of time before repentance can be genuine, or else repentance would be turned into a kind of obedience that we could do to merit salvation of ourselves. Of course, genuine repentance will result in a changed life..."
It is not up to us to say anything. By their fruits ye shall know them.
quote:
Paul did not ask them to question their salvation, but instead called them brothers and instructed them to follow God's wisdom. I'm afraid that some who hold to an extreme Lordship Salvation view would have written to the Corinthians and told them to question their salvation.
As a matter of fact, it was to the Corinthians that Paul said: "EXAMINE YOURSELVES, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?" (2 Cor. 13:5). So you are telling us that Paul also held to an "extreme Lorship Salvation view"? I believe Paul would respond: "What you consider an extreme view is actually the Biblical norm. But because you live in the times of apostasy, it appears extreme".
Do you see the kind of trap we set for ourselves when we do not apply the Scriptures to our contemporary situations properly? Paul is teaching us to ask the very same question of professing Christians "Are you really in the faith?" when the Gospel is preached.
_____________________________
And whosoever will, let him take the Water of Life freely. Revelation 22:17
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RE: Lordship salvation and no other - 8/1/2007 1:02:03 AM
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crankius
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Ezra,
You post as if I am an enemy, but I am not. I am simply trying to discuss the topic.
I am well aware that Grudem's definition is one you would agree with--I posted it because I also think it is a good definition.
And what I mean specifically about "questioning salvation"--Paul did not jump all over the Corinthians telling them their actions prove they are probably not saved. This is what I have heard from the extreme side, but you haven't heard what I have heard.
Of course there are lots of scriptures clarifying that we are to examine ourselves--I've already stated those verses are valuable, at the same time the other verses about assurance are also valuable.
If anyone else is reading this thread and interested, I think Grudem gives the topic a very fair assessment in his Systematic Theology.
For now, I'm done in this thread.
< Message edited by crankius -- 8/1/2007 1:10:25 AM >
_____________________________
Do not be overly righteous, Nor be overly wise: Why should you destroy yourself?
Ecclesiastes 7:16
He Himself is our peace! Ephesians 2:14:a
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RE: Lordship salvation and no other - 8/1/2007 7:41:07 PM
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GrahamCracker
Posts: 1963
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From: Dallas, TX
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quote:
ORIGINAL: crankius
And what I mean specifically about "questioning salvation"--Paul did not jump all over the Corinthians telling them their actions prove they are probably not saved. This is what I have heard from the extreme side, but you haven't heard what I have heard.
Crankius,
You are correct that Paul did not jump all over the Corinthians telling them their actions prove they are probably not saved. If there is one thing that I learned from the Free Grace website, it is that 2 Cor 13:5 is frequently taken out of context.
Paul told them to examine themselves, not because they were behaving like lost people. He told them to examine themselves because they questioned his apostolic authority. It had absolutely nothing to do with their behavior.
He was saying basically, "that if you don't believe I am an apostle, then how can you be believers since your faith is based upon accepting the message I gave you."
Are you listening, Ezra?
_____________________________
Larry
Sure we're under the law, everybody knows that!
When He said, "A new covenant," He has made the first obsolete. But whatever is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to disappear. (Heb 10:13)
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RE: Lordship salvation and no other - 8/1/2007 9:27:40 PM
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Ezra
Posts: 1784
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quote:
You post as if I am an enemy, but I am not. I am simply trying to discuss the topic.
I'm sorry if I offended you, but that was certainly not my intention. You are definitely not the "enemy".
quote:
Are you listening, Ezra?
Absolutely. However, you have missed something vital. That Paul was applying a general principle to a specific case.
The general principle is found throughout Scripture, particularly in the Gospels, and more cogently in the parables of the Kingdom. Note well what is written in Mt. 12:33-35, 48-50;13:18-22, 24-30, 47-51.
When the Gospel is preached there will always be false professors. They resemble true possessors externally, but their fruits are unrighteous. So now let's make an application of what Paul was saying in 2 Corinthians.
quote:
He was saying basically, "that if you don't believe I am an apostle, then how can you be believers since your faith is based upon accepting the message I gave you."
Therefore you could say, if you don't believe that Jesus is your Lord and Master, and that you must turn from your sins and idols, then how can you be believers, since your faith is based upon the truth that Jesus is both Lord and Christ, and He demands repentance?
_____________________________
And whosoever will, let him take the Water of Life freely. Revelation 22:17
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RE: Lordship salvation and no other - 8/2/2007 12:30:12 AM
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crankius
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Ezra,
Some of us are trying to reason this topic from the scriptures without tossing around implied false accusations of apostasy or making false assumptions of Biblical illiteracy. It is impossible to reason from the scriptures in a thread filled with false assumptions and accusations.
A quality discussion on Lordship Salvation should look at the extremes on both sides of this issue in order to test the doctrine for its soundness in all its forms. There is much we can learn from each other when we discuss with respect, but all is lost when that respect is not mutual.
I have some questions to ask and will post them in a moment.
_____________________________
Do not be overly righteous, Nor be overly wise: Why should you destroy yourself?
Ecclesiastes 7:16
He Himself is our peace! Ephesians 2:14:a
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RE: Lordship salvation and no other - 8/2/2007 12:34:20 AM
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crankius
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The antidote to both extremes expressed in this thread (cheap gospel vs. heavy burden gospel) is correct doctrine on Christ, which is why Paul spends 99% of his time on correct doctrine and meaningful teaching, and 1% of his time on examining ourselves (which is not the same thing as telling people each time you present the Gospel that they probably are not saved).
Here are some questions that I have, and I will respectfully read your respectful replies.
Please explain the Lordship Salvation view of the woman who was told her faith saved her (Luke 7:36-50).
Please explain how the thief on the cross who had no evidence of fruit or repentance was told by Jesus he would be with Him in paradise.
Was Peter in a state of salvation when he denied Christ three times?
While David was living in a sinful state, was his salvation sure?
ETA--If anyone else would like to address these questions, please do so.
< Message edited by crankius -- 8/2/2007 12:45:41 AM >
_____________________________
Do not be overly righteous, Nor be overly wise: Why should you destroy yourself?
Ecclesiastes 7:16
He Himself is our peace! Ephesians 2:14:a
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RE: Lordship salvation and no other - 8/2/2007 2:19:36 AM
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Ezra
Posts: 1784
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quote:
Please explain the Lordship Salvation view of the woman who was told her faith saved her (Luke 7:36-50).
I don't know what "the Lordship Salvation view" is on this woman, but two things are very clear:
(a) since Christ said "Thy faith hath saved thee", He saw into her heart and noted that she had believed on Him as her Lord and Savior, and
(b) since she was weeping as she anointed His feet, she had genuinely repented (or turned from her sins). Otherwise she would not have been told "Go in peace".
quote:
Please explain how the thief on the cross who had no evidence of fruit or repentance was told by Jesus he would be with Him in paradise.
Since our works do not get us into Heaven, what Christ saw was the faith of this man, who acknowledged Christ as "King" and also addressed Him as "Lord", while believing with all his heart that Christ had no sin, but loved sinners like himself.
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Was Peter in a state of salvation when he denied Christ three times?
Absolutely. We know from Scripture that Satan had desired to sift Peter, and this was a temporary lapse of his faith. Therefore the Lord not only restored him after His resurrection, but commissioned him to feed His lambs and sheep.
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While David was living in a sinful state, was his salvation sure?
His salvation was sure, but his fellowship was broken. David was justified by faith (as was Abraham), therefore he had received the imputed righteousness of Christ (as do all who believe God). This again was a temporary lapse into sin, which David repented of and was restored to God.
In all these cases, at the beginning, there was a genuine turning from sin and a turning to God their Savior, regardless of lapses which occurred later on. They never stopped acknowledging God or Christ as Lord.
Scripture does not teach that the Christian will be perfectly sinless or may not lapse into sin. It does teach that repentance is a genuine turning away from sin and the practice of sin, and a commitment to live righteously by the grace of God and the power of the Holy Spirit.
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And whosoever will, let him take the Water of Life freely. Revelation 22:17
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RE: Lordship salvation and no other - 8/2/2007 3:42:31 AM
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GrahamCracker
Posts: 1963
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: Dallas, TX
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Ezra
quote:
Are you listening, Ezra?
Absolutely. However, you have missed something vital. That Paul was applying a general principle to a specific case.
That is eisegesis of the passage. You're out of context and now you want to "apply" it by importing the idea into the text.
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When the Gospel is preached there will always be false professors. They resemble true possessors externally, but their fruits are unrighteous. So now let's make an application of what Paul was saying in 2 Corinthians.
Let's not. You're out of context.
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He was saying basically, "that if you don't believe I am an apostle, then how can you be believers since your faith is based upon accepting the message I gave you."
Therefore you could say, if you don't believe that Jesus is your Lord and Master, and that you must turn from your sins and idols, then how can you be believers, since your faith is based upon the truth that Jesus is both Lord and Christ, and He demands repentance?
You cannot say that because that is not in 2 Cor. 13:5. That is not even the subject of 2 Cor. 13:5, not in the least.
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Larry
Sure we're under the law, everybody knows that!
When He said, "A new covenant," He has made the first obsolete. But whatever is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to disappear. (Heb 10:13)
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RE: Lordship salvation and no other - 8/2/2007 11:05:48 AM
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Gloryandgrace
Posts: 484
Joined: 1/15/2006
Status: offline
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2 Corinthians 13
1This is the third time I am coming to you. In the mouth of two or three witnesses shall every word be established.
2I told you before, and foretell you, as if I were present, the second time; and being absent now I write to them which heretofore have sinned, and to all other, that, if I come again, I will not spare:
3Since ye seek a proof of Christ speaking in me, which to you-ward is not weak, but is mighty in you.
4For though he was crucified through weakness, yet he liveth by the power of God. For we also are weak in him, but we shall live with him by the power of God toward you.
5Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?
6But I trust that ye shall know that we are not reprobates.
7Now I pray to God that ye do no evil; not that we should appear approved, but that ye should do that which is honest, though we be as reprobates.
8For we can do nothing against the truth, but for the truth.
Graham:
I saw your interpretation of 2 cor 13:5, its pretty close but youve changed the emphasis of what Paul was saying. I doing so, you are now able to act as though what Paul told the corinthians in verse 5 is really not what is says.
Paul is telling the Corinthians that if he comes again he will not spare, he will deal with the sinning Corinthians according to the authority he has from Christ in the power of God.
Paul anticipating their 'questioning of his apostolic authority and 'word' tell them that 'though they might seek proof of Christ speaking in him," they really out " Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates? " Paul knows he is in the faith, but they who will not listen to paul 'are not in the faith'. They will not spiritually be able to discern what he is saying.
Remember Paul is dealing with the Corinthian now in a way that is sad. False apostles have come in and completely reversed the example of Paul and the other apostles and now they are puffed up against Paul, these leaders are now inciting resistance against him.
What you are doing is connecting the examination of themselves with Pauls fathering them in the faith. That is a fair connection. But what you are doing presumably in order to satisfy a viewpoint you have on free grace is present that examination as a simple "your my spiritual children and Im your father". It goes deeper than that. Paul really meant for them to examine themselves, why? Because Paul is speaking by the Spirit and if they cannot 'hear him' they are reprobate and fail the test of being a true believer. Therefore Paul calls for them to examine themselves and those true believer will find Christ in them, they that are reprobate will not find Christ indwelling them.
In the end Graham the common usage of examining oneself to 'check his faith in Christ' is applicable not only to the Corinthian who was taught by Paul but by the regular Christian who might stumble over Pauls teachings.
John
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Isa 42:6 I the LORD have called thee in righteousness, and will hold thine hand, and will keep thee, and give thee for a covenant of the people, for a light of the Gentiles.....
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RE: Lordship salvation and no other - 8/2/2007 11:57:07 AM
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GrahamCracker
Posts: 1963
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: Dallas, TX
Status: offline
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quote:
What you are doing is connecting the examination of themselves with Pauls fathering them in the faith. That is a fair connection. But what you are doing presumably in order to satisfy a viewpoint you have on free grace is present that examination as a simple "your my spiritual children and Im your father". It goes deeper than that. Paul really meant for them to examine themselves, why? Because Paul is speaking by the Spirit and if they cannot 'hear him' they are reprobate and fail the test of being a true believer. Therefore Paul calls for them to examine themselves and those true believer will find Christ in them, they that are reprobate will not find Christ indwelling them.
Really? Then why does Paul ask them to recognize that Christ is in them? (verse 5),
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Larry
Sure we're under the law, everybody knows that!
When He said, "A new covenant," He has made the first obsolete. But whatever is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to disappear. (Heb 10:13)
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RE: Lordship salvation and no other - 8/2/2007 12:27:46 PM
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GrahamCracker
Posts: 1963
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: Dallas, TX
Status: offline
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For the record, I do believe it is legitimate to challenge someone who is habitually disobedient. But insofar as regular self-examination for Christians who are trying to do God's will--no, I do not believe that 2 Cor. 13:5 provides any warrant for that whatsoever.
1) There were some Christians who were doing sinful things.
2) There were Christians in Corinth who were challenging Paul's authority.
Christians who are habitually trying to do God's will do none of those things and therefore have no cause to constantly reexamine their salvation. You, yourself agreed that my interpretation was "fair." But you are unwilling to go further and to agree with me that there are many, including Ezra who will stretch the interpretation---by applying "[t]he general principle is found throughout Scripture..." Do you hear yourselves regarding how far you are willing to distort Paul's words?
You took Ezra's interpretation at face value and he had to rely upon "a general principle" to import an interpretation in order to make the case.
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Larry
Sure we're under the law, everybody knows that!
When He said, "A new covenant," He has made the first obsolete. But whatever is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to disappear. (Heb 10:13)
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RE: Lordship salvation and no other - 8/2/2007 12:58:00 PM
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GrahamCracker
Posts: 1963
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: Dallas, TX
Status: offline
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quote:
The general principle is found throughout Scripture, particularly in the Gospels, and more cogently in the parables of the Kingdom. Note well what is written in Mt. 12:33-35, 48-50;13:18-22, 24-30, 47-51.
One section of verses out of context is not "found throughout scripture."
Let's remember that your original interpretation is that all Christians are to regularly reexamine our salvation in case they we are not believers. I do not see such an command found even in the verses you presented.
You're reaching.
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Larry
Sure we're under the law, everybody knows that!
When He said, "A new covenant," He has made the first obsolete. But whatever is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to disappear. (Heb 10:13)
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