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RE: Intellectual Honesty - 8/16/2007 12:10:43 AM
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Aphobos
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quote:
ORIGINAL: lmartuneac
Anyway, you can object all you want, and that is fine with me. I will not, however, be dictated to on how you think I should interact here or at any blog. These are open forums and I will participate as I see fit within the administrator's guidelines.
In an open forum, you can and should expect your posts to be critically evaluated. If they cannont withstand scrutiny, then perhaps you should stick to your blog.
quote:
If you are done complaining about minor peripherals, feel free to deal with one of the doctrinal issues I have touched on with the LS position, such as repentance.LM
"Minor peripherals"? It was you stated -- from your own book -- the reason you are convinced of your position. Namely, it is upsetting to both sides and thus yours is the balanced position. You said, and I quote:
"Having both the LS and GES camps mad at me confirms in my mind that I struck the right balance in the debate."
I demonstrated that your reasoning is fallacious. This is a textbook example of the Golden Mean fallacy. What happend to the "student of logic"? How can you say that this is "peripheral"? Your confirmation is irrational!
Aphobos
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RE: Intellectual Honesty - 8/16/2007 8:01:43 AM
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lmartuneac
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Aphobos
In an open forum, you can and should expect your posts to be critically evaluated. If they cannont withstand scrutiny, then perhaps you should stick to your blog.
If you know anything about my background you would know I have willingly stuck my neck out and have no problem with criticism. You can critcize all you want, and like I said, I don't care if you don't like my references to my book and blog. You just don't like that I am linking to my blog and others like Zeller's btw that refute LS. You don't want the answers to LS's false teaching conspicuously displayed, and it upsets you. That is OK, many LS men get quite upset when their egregious doctrinal errors come under critical scrutiny, and you are just another exmaple of this.
I wrote, "Having both the LS and GES camps mad at me confirms in my mind that I struck the right balance in the debate."
quote:
I demonstrated that your reasoning is fallacious. This is a textbook example of the Golden Mean fallacy. What happend to the "student of logic"? How can you say that this is "peripheral"? Your confirmation is irrational!
I stand by what I said, and you demonstrated nothing of any consequence.
I wrote, quote:
If you are done complaining about minor peripherals, feel free to deal with one of the doctrinal issues I have touched on with the LS position, such as repentance.
Or we could discuss MacArthur's view that James 4:7-10 is, "an invitation to salvation." What is your opinion of that view?
Now, one more try, if you can get off the personal problems you are having with me, and want to discuss the thelogy of LS, please do so. Otherwise, you might be more comfortable ignoring me.
LM
< Message edited by lmartuneac -- 8/16/2007 8:09:28 AM >
_____________________________
"Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that ye may know how ye ought to answer every man," (Col. 4:6).
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RE: Intellectual Honesty - 8/16/2007 9:30:23 AM
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Aphobos
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quote:
ORIGINAL: lmartuneac
I stand by what I said, and you demonstrated nothing of any consequence.
I see. You are content to present yourself as a "student" of logic in your book, smugly demonstrating the alleged false dilemmas in the arguments of others. But when you make a similar blunder, it's "nothing of any consequence." How convenient.
~Aphobos
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RE: Intellectual Honesty - 8/16/2007 12:40:30 PM
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Ps103
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MODERATOR'S NOTE :: ATTENTION PLEASE
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RE: Intellectual Honesty - 8/16/2007 1:37:40 PM
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Gloryandgrace
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Taken from James Coffmans commentary.
Verse 7
Be subject therefore unto God; but resist the devil, and he will flee from you.
As noted in the introduction, James here included a series of blunt, power-packed exhortations, running through James 4:10. The expression "ye sinners" coming right in the middle of this (James 4:8) forbids referring this particular paragraph to Christians, the unmodified designation "sinners" not being an appropriate address for members of the body of Christ to whom the whole letter is written. Carson pointed out that "The verbs in these exhortations are in the aorist tense, indicating that these things are to be done `once for all,' as a settled thing for the soul." F21 We might add also, "indicating that the people addressed had not already done them." The unconverted, who make up a part of every Christian audience, are plainly intended as recipients of the exhortation here. This conclusion is made more certain by James' immediate employment of a number of expressions used elsewhere in the New Testament for conversion, or primary obedience to the gospel.
Be subject therefore unto God ...
That primary Christian obedience is inherent in this admonition is apparent from McNab's comment:
Herein are blended perfectly the true activities of faith and works. By faith we submit to God in a fuller, deeper surrender to his will ... in our act of submission, we are prepared for conflict with the evil one? F22
Of course, if men submit to God, they must resist Satan in order to do so initially, and recurrently ever afterward.
Resist the devil and he will flee from you ...
brings to mind the initial scene in our Lord's ministry, that of his resisting Satan in the wilderness temptation (Matthew 4:8), which ended by Satan's "leaving him for a season." This also suggests that it is initial Christian acceptance of the gospel that is in view here. Let James' continued relation of all that he wrote to the life and teachings of the Master be noted. This admonition has its relevance to Christians in the fact of their original victory over Satan when they became children of God not having been due to their own strength, but to that of the Lord; and a reminder of this would steer them in the right direction for subsequent struggles against evil.
Verse 8
Draw nigh to God, and he will draw nigh to you. Cleanse your hands, ye sinners; and purify your hearts, ye doubleminded.
Draw nigh to God ...
The exact equivalent of this expression, "Let us draw near," as used in Heb. 10:22ff, has a marked application to conversion, faith, repentance and baptism, all three being specifically referred to. See full comment on that passage in my Commentary on Hebrews, pp. 229-232. It is of special importance that Hebrews was also written to Christians and yet contains this very pronounced paragraph on the conversion of alien sinners; and there is no good reason for supposing that James did not do the same thing here.
_____________________________
Isa 42:6 I the LORD have called thee in righteousness, and will hold thine hand, and will keep thee, and give thee for a covenant of the people, for a light of the Gentiles.....
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What is the Motivation Behind LS? - 8/16/2007 9:00:37 PM
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lmartuneac
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From his review of The Gospel According To Jesus, Dr. Ernest Pickering observed,
quote:
"John MacArthur is a sincere servant of the Lord, of that we have no doubt.... We believe in his advocacy of the so-called lordship salvation he is wrong. He desperately desires to see holiness, lasting fruit, and continuing faithfulness in the lives of Christian people. This reviewer and we believe all sincere church leaders desire the same.... But the remedy for this condition is not found in changing the terms of the gospel." (Lordship Salvation: An Examination of John MacArthur's Book, The Gospel According to Jesus.)
Dr. Charlie Bing made a similar observation:
quote:
"They are motivated by the worthy desire to see those who profess Christ go on to maturity and fruitfulness. Faced with the sad realities of inconsistent behavior, “backsliding,” and outright apostasy by some professing Christians, they have proposed a gospel that demands up front an exclusive commitment to an obedient lifestyle in hopes of minimizing these problems." (Lordship Salvation: A Biblical Evaluation and Response, p. 11.)
Certainly there are many Christians who do not live up to what they profess to believe. This frustration, however, does not warrant "changing the terms of the gospel," which is what Lordship Salvation has done.
quote:
"Submit yourselves therefore to God. Resist the devil, and he will flee from you. Draw nigh to God, and he will draw nigh to you. Cleanse your hands, ye sinners; and purify your hearts, ye double minded. Be afflicted, and mourn, and weep: let your laughter be turned to mourning, and your joy to heaviness. Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up," (James 4:7-10).
Twisting James 4:7-10 into an evangelistic appeal ("invitation to salvation") is one example of how John MacArthur (representing LS) goes about "changing the terms of the Gospel" to suit the Lordship position.
LM
_____________________________
"Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that ye may know how ye ought to answer every man," (Col. 4:6).
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RE: What is the Motivation Behind LS? - 8/16/2007 9:29:30 PM
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Aphobos
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The following is taken from John MacArthur's book, Faith Works:
Twentieth-century evangelicalism seems obsessed with the idea that unsaved people should never be told they have any duty other than believing. Lewis Sperry Chafer, for example, suggested that "in all gospel preaching every reference to the life to be lived beyond regeneration should be avoided as far as possible."2 He claimed it was faulty evangelism to tell sinners they must "repent and believe," "believe and confess Christ," "believe and be baptized," "believe and surrender to God," or "believe and confess sin."3 Yet Scripture employs all those expressions! Jesus Himself preached, "Repent and believe in the gospel" (Mark 1:15). Paul wrote, "If you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you shall be saved" (Rom 10:9). At Pentecost, Peter preached, "Repent, and let each of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit" (Acts 2:38). John wrote, "He who does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God remains on him" (John 3:36). The writer to the Hebrews said that Christ "became to all those who obey Him the source of eternal salvation" (Heb 5:9). James wrote, submit therefore to God. Resist the devil and he will flee from you. Draw near to God and He will draw near to you. Cleanse your hands, you sinners; and purify your hearts, you double-minded" (James 4:7, emphasis added). Jesus responded by preaching Law and lordship to a man who asked Him how he might obtain eternal life! (Matt 19:16-22).
Are we to believe that the inspired Scripture constitutes poorly worded theology?
I agree that terminology is important, and we dare not confuse the gospel message or add anything to the biblical terms for salvation. But it should be obvious that Jesus and the apostles certainly did not fuss about the phraseology of evangelistic invitations the way many Christians today do. Nor did they avoid mentioning God's law. On the contrary, the law is where they began! (cf. Rom 1:16-3:20). The law reveals our sin (Rom 3:20) and is a tutor to lead us to Christ (Gal 3:24). It is the means God uses to make sinners see their own helplessness. Clearly, Paul saw a key place for the law in evangelistic contexts. (pp. 195-96)
2 Lewis Sperry Chafer, Systematic Theology, 9 vols. (Dallas: Seminary Press. 1948), 3:387
3 Ibid., 3:371-93
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Lordship's Corruption of the Gospel - 8/16/2007 10:37:28 PM
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lmartuneac
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To gain some understanding of John MacArthur’s Lordship Salvation corruption of the Gospel of grace, a brief look at John 3:36 is necessary.
“He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him,” (John 3:36).
The active word in this verse is believe. If a man will believe on the Son (of God), he will have eternal life. John MacArthur cites this verse in a footnote on p. 39 of The Gospel According to Jesus. The meaning of the verse, however, is distorted by MacArthur to favor the Lordship Salvation view. He cites the verse as follows: “He who does not obey the Son shall not see life. . . .” (The Gospel According to Jesus, p. 33)
John MacArthur chooses John 3:36 to support the Lordship gospel by citing the second usage of the word “believeth” (from the KJV) as “obey,” but he does not cite the first half of John 3:36, which is the key to the context.
The first usage of the word “believeth” in John 3:36 is identical to the word “believe” in the Romans 10:9 passage. While the word “believeth not” (apeithon) is a different word than the first usage of the word “believeth,” and can mean “obey” in some cases, the context of John 3:36(a) demands unbelief, not disobedience. The correct meaning of “believeth not” (apeiqwn) is to refuse or withhold belief. Or, we could say that disobedience in itself is unbelief. Taking the whole context into consideration, the second part of the verse cannot be referring to a person’s actions, but rather to his unbelief.
In reference to John 3:36, Spiros T. Zodhiates defines Apeitheia thus: “from the negative a (1), without, and peitho (3982), to persuade. Not to believe, to disbelieve implying disobedience; also to disobey as through unbelief.” (The Hebrew Greek Key Study Bible, p. 1,691.)
Obey is a legitimate translation of believe, but to render it thus in this verse does not clearly convey what sort of obedience is required. Refusing to believe in Christ is, in essence, disobedience.
Lordship Salvation is a departure from the biblical plan of salvation. This false gospel and its advocates must be exposed and biblically refuted so that unsuspecting believers are not swept up into this egregious error.
LM
_____________________________
"Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that ye may know how ye ought to answer every man," (Col. 4:6).
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RE: Lordship's Corruption of the Gospel - 8/17/2007 12:55:18 AM
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Gloryandgrace
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Its good to finally get a glimpse of LM's handling of scripture. He feels comfortable now seeing that he has told those that withstand him to ignore him and let him continue on his way preaching his middle-ground (balanced) so-called gospel.
But what we did get was a close-up of just how his free grace shows itself.
First by becoming a bible transliterator for us and attaching his doctrine to his justification for wording changes.
Second by assuming the rest of the bible is unknown to us and therefore he may make statements about belief and obedience more to his liking.
The bible itself is a great clarifier of how belief and obedience walk hand in hand in the gospel message. The message of scripture has no divisions concerning belief and obedience.
LM's doctrine cannot stomach anything that doesnt proceed along his prescribed path.
Examples are.
Joh 3:36 Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life; whoever does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God remains on him. 544 connected to unbelief
Rom 2:8 but for those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, there will be wrath and fury. 544 connected to unbelief
Rom 6:16 Do you not know that if you present yourselves to anyone as obedient slaves, you are slaves of the one whom you obey, either of sin, which leads to death, or of obedience, which leads to righteousness? 5219 compliance or submission
2Th 1:8 in flaming fire, inflicting vengeance on those who do not know God and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. 5219 compliance or submission
Heb 5:9 And being made perfect, he became the source of eternal salvation to all who obey him, 5219 compliance or submission
1Pe 4:17 For it is time for judgment to begin at the household of God; and if it begins with us, what will be the outcome for those who do not obey the gospel of God? 544
unbelief
One only has to read the gospel of John to realize that Johns gospel has several places where belief is held by a person yet they were not saved, but went back away from Christ or they showed a form of honor but not faith and some believed but Christ didnt commit himself to them. Johns gospel uses belief in the strongest way, namely to trust and submit to.
Gr 4100 pisteuō Yet, if we are not careful we will error by lettings strongs and our own presuppositions transliterate. Believeth not equals obeys not. Why? because believe being Pisteuo is set against the greek word apeitheo to disobey. John was teaching us something that obedience to Christ results in eternal life and disobedience maintains the abiding wrath of God.
Obedience to Christ? How so? It begins with an obedience to the gospel against the pattern of a sinful life "Rom 2:8 but for those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness".
Its very true that unbelief is walking hand in hand with disobedience. But what is the apostle trying to say? Is it a lack of belief in God or a lack of knowledge of God? No, The text in Romans was written to the Jew directly and Paul appeals to the Law of God as the standard of what 'belief' represents. Obeying righteousness is obeying the law. The Jews fell under the condemnation of unbelief because they were disobedient.
Again Paul speaking to believers that they which obey unrighteousness are servants of sin.
They that obey righteousness are servants of God and have fruits unto holiness. Does this begin after some time being born again? No, it is commanded from God at the outset of those whom will follow Christ. The bible doesnt teach "believe Christ if you want too" it teaches to "obey the gospel". If it is not obeyed sever punishment is delivered by God. 2Th 1:8 in flaming fire, inflicting vengeance on those who do not know God and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus.
Here the writer of Hebrews cares nothing for the proper wording to Justification by faith he says
Heb 5:9 And being made perfect, he became the source of eternal salvation to all who obey him, Salvation to those who obey? What? Hasnt the writer of Hebrews read LMartuneacs book and doesnt he know that he might be leading them astray into works? Not only to add insult to injury to LMartuneacs teachings but the Hebrew writer now uses a word that means compliance, a submission to and a conformity. What? conform to the gospel or believe the gospel? Well the scripture teaches to submit and conform to that gospel. I know someone will jump on the "Its addressed to Christians excuse". Well then you have the problem of the Hebrew writer now telling Christians to conform or lose salvation, is this not works? Either way the Hebrew writer doesnt care one iota about our tipy toeing verbage concerning free grace or Lordship salvation.
He cares that the heart and mind are being conformed to Christ and Christ is that source of eternal life. The source of conformity as well as the result of conformity is Christ.
What LMartuneac has spent 20 years on trying to refute the apostles demolish in one sentence.
Because the scriptures dont care about paradoxes or apparent contradictions. The message of the truth concerning Christ is preeminent. While we always attempt to rightly divide the word of God, we must always bow before the Word and say "open our ears that we may hear what the Spirit is saying".
LS is not trying to box God by prescribing how a person must avoid anything that smacks of works or law-keeping, it is attempting to proclaim all the gospel in all its forms. John M is not trying to add to the saving grace of Christ but to proclaim all that is contained in the message of the scriptures. John M nor any LS advocate need fear what appear to be contradictions or errors because of counting the cost, or carrying the cross, or repenting, keeping the commandments or being baptised or any other such additives are connected to faith in Christ.
The scriptures are clear that God alone saves, man cannot aid in his salvation, therefore when baptism is admixed to belief or repentance or taking up the cross are added to saving faith we do not fear that somehow we are now 'working' for our salvation. God will not admit works, therefore the command to obey cannot be admitted as works in Gods economy to save men.
As I posted earlier, very early on in this thread God gives the grace and man responds with repentance, faith, belief, baptisms, keeping the commands of God, love and good works.
LM spends all this time rebutting LS when the smallest scripture topples his doctrines. LS doesnt need to tipy toe around scripture to maintain justification by faith and repentance from dead works. LS believers understand that God has already worked and as new-birthed believers we respond accordingly.
What stumbles Free-gracers and LM particularly is the fact that God regenerates men according to his will and he doesnt ask their permission to do so. That just grinds middletown baptist and LM and all he has said so that more years are installed protecting what he cannot protect.
John
_____________________________
Isa 42:6 I the LORD have called thee in righteousness, and will hold thine hand, and will keep thee, and give thee for a covenant of the people, for a light of the Gentiles.....
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RE: Lordship's Corruption of the Gospel - 8/17/2007 7:59:43 AM
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lmartuneac
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G/G begins to reveal how the LS advocate arrives at the works based LS gospel.
He wrote,quote:
"God regenerates men according to his will and he doesnt ask their permission to do so."
What he does not explain in plain words is that he believes regeneration precedes faith. This is an extreme extra-biblical view that flows from the circle-logic of Calvinistic presuppositions, especially the Total Inability position, which itself is an extra-biblical position. This extra-biblical regeneration before faith thinking is very common among LS advocates.
LS men, like GG believe lost men cannot hear or respond to the Gospel, he cannot call upon the name of the Lord (Rom.10:13). Lost man cannot believe, repent, or put his faith in Christ. So, the Lordship/Calvinist creates an extra-biblical solution: lost man is regenerated (born again) first and before he ever exercises faith, repentance or belief in Jesus Christ.
The LS advocate, who is seeking to gain upfront promises of commitement an surrender in "exchange" for salvation, believe they gain these promises from a man who has been born again already.
To learn just how far askew of the Scriptures this LS presupposition of regeneration before faith is, see George Zeller's Does Regeneration Precede Faith?
LM
PS: GG, "...he doesnt ask their permission to do so." Example of strange thinking coming from GG. Maybe he can quote some who believes that otherwise, he woud do well to limit himself to facts he can document, and thereby avoid stumbling into false dilemma, straw man claims.
< Message edited by lmartuneac -- 8/17/2007 9:24:02 AM >
_____________________________
"Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that ye may know how ye ought to answer every man," (Col. 4:6).
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RE: Lordship's Corruption of the Gospel - 8/17/2007 9:10:17 AM
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Gloryandgrace
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quote:
LS men, like GG believe lost men cannot hear or respond to the Gospel, he cannot call upon the name of the Lord (Rom.10:13). Lost man cannot believe, repent, or put his faith in Christ. So, the Lordship/Calvinist creates an extra-biblical solution: lost man is regenerated (born again) first and before he ever exercises faith, repentance or belief in Jesus Christ
Lm because you dont believe it, doesnt make it wrong.
Because you dont believe it doesnt make it extra biblical.
Because you dont believe it doesnt make your assertions true.
John
_____________________________
Isa 42:6 I the LORD have called thee in righteousness, and will hold thine hand, and will keep thee, and give thee for a covenant of the people, for a light of the Gentiles.....
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Sample Excerpt - 8/17/2007 9:21:37 AM
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lmartuneac
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Following is an example of Zeller's penetrating article on the extra-biblical teaching of Calvinism's Regeneration before Faith. Brother Zeller answers the question: Does Regeneration Precede Faith?
This is an important matter in understanding how the Lordship advocates arrives at his works based interpretation of the Gospel, and thereby frustrates the grace of God (Gal.2:21).
quote:
The extreme Calvinist teaches that a person must have life in order to believe. The Lord Jesus taught that a person must believe (come to Christ) in order to have life (John 5:40). Why do people not believe on Christ? Is it because they have not been regenerated or because they refuse to come to Christ by faith (John 5:40; 2 Thess. 2:10,12)?
If regeneration precedes faith, then this would make faith unnecessary since the person would already be saved. If a person is regenerated, then he is born of God and a member of God's family. If you are a member of God's family then you are already saved so what need is there for faith?
The tragedy of this position is that it perverts the gospel. The sinner is told that the condition of salvation is prayer instead of faith. How contrary this is to Acts 16:31. The sinner is not told to pray for conviction and for regeneration. The sinner is told to believe on the Lord Jesus Christ.
The extra-biblical regeneration before faith position GG is suggesting is wrong because the Bible says it s wrong. For example:
quote:
The Bible clearly teaches this: BELIEVE AND THOU SHALT LIVE! "Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life" (John 6:47). "That whosoever believeth in Him should not perish, but have eternal life" (John 3:15). The extreme Calvinist says, "LIVE AND THOU SHALT BELIEVE!" Please notice that John 1:12 does not say this: "But as many as have been regenerated, to them gave He the power to believe on His Name, even to those who have become the children of God." Notice also that John 20:31 says, "believing ye might have life." It does not say, "having life ye might believe." In his helpless and hopeless condition the sinner is told to LOOK to the Lord Jesus Christ AND LIVE (John 3:14–16)! [We sing the hymn "LOOK AND LIVE." The extreme Calvinist should change the words to "LIVE AND LOOK"].
LM
< Message edited by lmartuneac -- 8/17/2007 9:46:12 AM >
_____________________________
"Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that ye may know how ye ought to answer every man," (Col. 4:6).
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RE: Sample Excerpt - 8/17/2007 1:00:18 PM
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Aphobos
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The Calvinist systematic is without a doubt the most biblical theology available. In terms of scriptural support, it far exceeds the alternative (Arminianism) in it's various flavors. However, this is not the appropriate thread for a discussion on Calvinism. That can be found elsewhere. Let's stick to the topic at hand, which is Lordship Salvation.
~Aphobos
< Message edited by Aphobos -- 8/17/2007 1:07:31 PM >
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RE: Sample Excerpt - 8/17/2007 2:42:16 PM
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Gloryandgrace
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Eph 2:4 But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,
5Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;)
6And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:
7That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.
8For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9Not of works, lest any man should boast.
What part of grace is LS twisting?
The Part that God loves us and saves while we are dead?
The Part that God raises us up and makes us sit in heavenly places?
The part that God gifts us with faith?
The part that LS refuses works as a means to salvation?
Oh, the part that God didnt ask men if they wanted to be raised up?
or the part where God didnt ask men if they wanted to be in unity with Christ and all other believers? Or the part where mans deadness needed God's direct regeneration so that they would respond?
If you believe God's grace is being trampled upon by LS believing man is subject to God saving him on God's own terms then I suppose we are guilty.
If you believe God's grace is aided by men then it is not I that has a problem frustrating grace but you and the so-called balanced doctrine
you assert. Man cannot birth himself into the kingdom of God and man wont ask to God to Lord over him unless God intervenes in the mans heart and life first. God is the prime agent in any mans conversion and new-birth.
This is grace, this is what it means to be given undeserved, unmerited, unearned favor to receive such lovingkindness from God.
But you have bought into the pendulum swinging theory and have determined that doctrine is best determined by avoiding extremes
that someone has labeled for you instead of hearing the truth.
John
_____________________________
Isa 42:6 I the LORD have called thee in righteousness, and will hold thine hand, and will keep thee, and give thee for a covenant of the people, for a light of the Gentiles.....
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RE: Intellectual Honesty - 8/17/2007 11:22:29 PM
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Ezra
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I believe intellectual honesty demands that we look at the teachings of MacArthur and others in the light of Scripture, and clearly identify thier errors.
I have read some of the interviews of MacArthur with those who question his doctrine, and it appears that MacArthur is often on shaky ground, and unable to use Scripture to clearly support his position.
For example, his use of James chapter 4 as a Gospel message is purely imaginary, since James is addressing Christians (possessors and professors).
Also, his idea of using repentance as an "exchange" for eternal life is not supported by Scripture. The sinner can give nothing in exchange for his soul, and it is only because of the merits of Christ and His finished work of redemption that we receive the gift of eternal life. At the same time, repentance toward God and faith otward our Lord Jesus Christ are the conditions for salvation (Acts 20:21).
The lesson in all this is to examine the teachings of all teachers and accept only that which is clearly supported by Scripture. Neither MacArthur nor any other preacher or teacher is beyond correction or rebuke.
Nonetheless, Christ must be preached as both Lord and Christ to all who hear the Gospel.
_____________________________
And whosoever will, let him take the Water of Life freely. Revelation 22:17
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RE: Intellectual Honesty - 8/18/2007 11:25:30 AM
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Gloryandgrace
Posts: 498
Joined: 1/15/2006
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I enjoy reading Macarthurs books, the last one I read "hard to believe" was really good. I was blessed by it.
Establishing good doctrine is not done by nit-piking some phrases John M has used that the opponents dont like and from that determine their teachings are superior to Johns overall teaching. John is on solid ground with his preaching and his usage of scripture to form the evangelistic message. Ive yet to see anything that LM or all the links and quotes that were given or the articles and blog articles that were cited didnt make a dent on John M's theology. Most of what I have read is nothing more than fighting against the Bible itself. I suppose some of it is born of their hatred toward John's Reformed theology (he's a calvy) and the other is born from their hatred of God's Word. I have often said that men who do not love the Sovereignty of God are insulted or offended when they find out they are not the final authority of their own salvation. As such they resist the doctrines of grace and treat it with disdain even if they have never studied the subject.
From these hatreds are born all kinds of peripheral accusations about any subject and these accusations turn into books and articles rebuting who knows what. The real bottom line is they cannot stomach a God that has not asked them how to run the universe. They are still in the pride of thinking they call the shots as to their salvation or how they should present the message of that salvation.
Whatever LM and his defenders do in the upcoming years will not harm the true gospel, God will still honor the message of taking up the cross as 'saving faith' even if 'free-gracers' despise it and call it works. The slang term "easy-believism" has become to them a doctrinal stance that now must be defended at the expense of 'counting the cost' naming it a working for salvation or a part of sanctification.
The idea that James 4:7-11 just cant, and I mean cannot be taken as an evangelistic statement is ridiculous. Its perfectly acceptable to look upon that portion as a redirection of his thought toward the 'unsaved' portion of his readers inside those 'twelve tribes'. But to hold on to the shreds of easy-believism a rigid interpretation put forth by LM and company must be swallowed by all in order not to be considered "frustrating the grace of God".
Its a breath of fresh air to read John M's book, even if its written by a falible man.
John
_____________________________
Isa 42:6 I the LORD have called thee in righteousness, and will hold thine hand, and will keep thee, and give thee for a covenant of the people, for a light of the Gentiles.....
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There another side to the story - 8/18/2007 11:36:05 AM
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Gloryandgrace
Posts: 498
Joined: 1/15/2006
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This is a good link to an old sermon that helps us to see that we dont have all the answers, that faith in God brings salvation when reasonings only bring more insulation against God and a hardening of the heart towards him.
http://www.puritansermons.com/sermons/binn03.htm
You know its ok for us to be Christians and for God to be God.
John
_____________________________
Isa 42:6 I the LORD have called thee in righteousness, and will hold thine hand, and will keep thee, and give thee for a covenant of the people, for a light of the Gentiles.....
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RE: Intellectual Honesty - 8/18/2007 11:37:29 AM
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crankius
Posts: 4153
Joined: 4/12/2005
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I must admit that I have never seen easy believism or cheap grace. I’ve been attending churches for over 30 years, and I have never yet met a believer in a church who did not know about sin or repentance, or that Christ is Lord. But then again, I’ve never attended Joel Osteen’s church. 
Here are some things I object to in Lordship Salvation that maybe you want to address, maybe you will agree with, or maybe you will disagree:
1. It is not valuable to make people question their salvation all the time, and I don’t see this as our job in scripture.
2. It is not up to us to discern who are genuine believers and who aren't, with the exception of appointing leadership/teaching positions within the church.
3. The gospel message should be preached minus an emphasis on works. The foundation of our faith is Christ, not our works.
4. Assurance of salvation should not rely solely on man's works--works are only an indication, not assurance, as an unregenerate person can also do endless amount of works and therefore appear saved, and be given false assurance of his salvation.
5. Conversion looks quite different from sanctification, and in Lordship Salvation the two are blurred.
6. Discipleship is an ongoing process in the life of a believer.
7. Christ is Lord regardless of how much He is Lord in the life of a believer. For example, just because Jonah fled from going to Nineveh doesn't mean that suddenly God wasn't Lord in his life--it just means he was a disobedient believer. We can say the same for Peter and David. They didn't cease to be children of God, co-heirs with Christ, simply because they disobeyed.
_____________________________
Do not be overly righteous, Nor be overly wise: Why should you destroy yourself?
Ecclesiastes 7:16
IS CHURCH YOUR IDOL?
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RE: Intellectual Honesty - 8/18/2007 11:43:33 AM
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crankius
Posts: 4153
Joined: 4/12/2005
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I’m troubled by the view of disciples that Lordship Salvation assumes.
Are we seeing a lack of discipleship, or a lack of disciples? Lordship Salvation assumes we are seeing a lack of disciples, while I see a lack of discipleship. I see people who believe in the Lord as their savior, and desire to grow in Him, but there is a real lack of solid Bible study in many churches, so people are encouraged to remain Biblically ignorant.
Again, I look to the Corinthian church, because they were also very immature and they were involved in squabbles and even harbored sexual sin. (They definitely displayed "lordship issues"--"I am of Paul," and another, "I am of Apollos") Paul did not address them as “false converts” and he didn’t address them as people who aren’t disciples. Rather, he addressed them as brothers, and encouraged them to grow in the Lord. He discipled them.
In the face of true discipling in a church, a “false convert” will be given full opportunity to respond to the Holy Spirit. If they don’t, then they are a tare among the wheat, or they are one who calls “Lord, Lord”, but not a true believer. Neither negative situation should surprise us, as Jesus told us this would be.
And we cannot neglect this passage:
1 Corinthians 3:11-15
For no other foundation can anyone lay than that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ. Now if anyone builds on this foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw, each one's work will become clear; for the Day will declare it, because it will be revealed by fire; and the fire will test each one's work, of what sort it is. If anyone's work which he has built on it endures, he will receive a reward. If anyone's work is burned, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire.
Some will have their works completely burned up, and yet still be saved.
_____________________________
Do not be overly righteous, Nor be overly wise: Why should you destroy yourself?
Ecclesiastes 7:16
IS CHURCH YOUR IDOL?
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RE: Intellectual Honesty - 8/18/2007 12:30:44 PM
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Aphobos
Posts: 662
Joined: 8/22/2006
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quote:
ORIGINAL: crankius
Here are some things I object to in Lordship Salvation that maybe you want to address, maybe you will agree with, or maybe you will disagree:
1. It is not valuable to make people question their salvation all the time, and I don’t see this as our job in scripture.
2. It is not up to us to discern who are genuine believers and who aren't, with the exception of appointing leadership/teaching positions within the church.
3. The gospel message should be preached minus an emphasis on works. The foundation of our faith is Christ, not our works.
4. Assurance of salvation should not rely solely on man's works--works are only an indication, not assurance, as an unregenerate person can also do endless amount of works and therefore appear saved, and be given false assurance of his salvation.
5. Conversion looks quite different from sanctification, and in Lordship Salvation the two are blurred.
6. Discipleship is an ongoing process in the life of a believer.
7. Christ is Lord regardless of how much He is Lord in the life of a believer. For example, just because Jonah fled from going to Nineveh doesn't mean that suddenly God wasn't Lord in his life--it just means he was a disobedient believer. We can say the same for Peter and David. They didn't cease to be children of God, co-heirs with Christ, simply because they disobeyed.
As a person who more or less accepts John MacArthur's teaching on Lordship salvation, I can confidently say that both MacArthur and I would readily accept each numbered item above. What your list rails against is a straw-man, a distortion, a caricature of Lordship salvation made by those who either (a) don't understand it, or (b) understand and willingly distort it.
~Aphobos
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RE: There another side to the story - 8/18/2007 12:40:28 PM
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Gloryandgrace
Posts: 498
Joined: 1/15/2006
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http://www.puritansermons.com/boston/bost11.htm
A good sermon on faith and obedience. Short and to the point.
http://www.puritansermons.com/sermons/traill02.htm
An excellent sermon that is nothing like the 'frustration' we hear from LS detractors, this dealing with frustrating the grace of God deals to the point with what hinders the grace of God. He shares none of the fears that LM has or his company.
http://www.puritansermons.com/sermons/white01.htm
This sermons lays the groundwork for understanding the prevenient grace given to men whereby they are enabled to come to Christ.
Upon this foundation is built the gospel call. God was not willing to have his gospel fall to the ground and be stolen by the birds of the air. But God preparing the heart of man to receive, planted the good seed into it so he may have a harvest for his labors.
Biblical salvation is the fruit of solid evangelical preaching that God uses to prepare the heart for the reception of grace. The law, the warnings, the rebukes, the reality of carrying the cross all these are gospel ministerings that prepare the heart for the good seed of grace to save.
The effectual call is that call which every person who has been "taught of God" understands to lead them to Christ and brings understanding to their hearts who Christ is and what he will do for them.
The free-grace easy believism of this modern preaching is too nervous and fearful that such biblical preparations of the heart might form legalists and not converts. It is to be seriously considered whether or not what they call converts are true converts.
John
< Message edited by Gloryandgrace -- 8/18/2007 1:27:18 PM >
_____________________________
Isa 42:6 I the LORD have called thee in righteousness, and will hold thine hand, and will keep thee, and give thee for a covenant of the people, for a light of the Gentiles.....
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RE: Intellectual Honesty - 8/18/2007 1:18:57 PM
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Gloryandgrace
Posts: 498
Joined: 1/15/2006
Status: offline
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