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RE: John MacArthur - 9/7/2008 3:02:07 PM
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humbleinspirit
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quote:
ORIGINAL: colliefan
self-esteem in children
This article is one of about 200 on the website dealing with the issue of self-esteem
quote:
The truth is that much of the modern effort to spark kids’ self-esteem is simply pouring gasoline on a runaway fire. It encourages already selfish kids to think they are justified in wanting their own way. It makes you as a parent think you have to defer to the child, no matter what, because the child has a right to express himself freely, so he feels good about himself. All of that only escalates out-of-control behavior and feeds the worst tendencies of human depravity. Want to ensure that your child will become a delinquent? Feed his self-esteem and then compound the problem by refusing to correct him when he is wrong.
Wrong, wrong, wrong. When MacArthur has taken a psychology class then he can have a say whether this is true or not. And oh yeah, he better not be implying that abusing a child is ok as well.
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RE: John MacArthur - 9/7/2008 3:13:40 PM
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Stephanos
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Seriously, when schools start making teachers stop grading in red ink to avoid hurting the kids self-esteem, something is wrong with the way schools teach self-esteem. When math becomes subjective rather than objective (ie its ok if Johnny says 1+2=4 because he tried), something is wrong with the way schools deal with self-esteem.
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RE: John MacArthur - 9/7/2008 3:15:36 PM
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humbleinspirit
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Stephanos
Seriously, when schools start making teachers stop grading in red ink to avoid hurting the kids self-esteem, something is wrong with the way schools teach self-esteem. When math becomes subjective rather than objective (ie its ok if Johnny says 1+2=4 because he tried), something is wrong with the way schools deal with self-esteem.
I'll agree with you on that juncture, but I will say while growing up I was told that I had low self-esteem, however that never stopped a teacher from grading my work correctly at all.
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RE: John MacArthur - 9/7/2008 3:30:35 PM
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colliefan
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quote:
Wrong, wrong, wrong. When MacArthur has taken a psychology class then he can have a say whether this is true or not. And oh yeah, he better not be implying that abusing a child is ok as well.
Where in that quote is MacAurthur in error in regard to scripture? And since when doess modern psychology trump scripture?
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RE: John MacArthur - 9/7/2008 3:31:59 PM
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humbleinspirit
Posts: 18135
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From: Just Outside of Boston
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quote:
ORIGINAL: colliefan
quote:
Wrong, wrong, wrong. When MacArthur has taken a psychology class then he can have a say whether this is true or not. And oh yeah, he better not be implying that abusing a child is ok as well.
Where in that quote is MacAurthur in error in regard to scripture? And since when doess modern psychology trump scripture?
It doesn't conflict scripture, he is making a lot of "untrue" assumptions, and he is then in error. In fact the Bible does address those who are in error instead.
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RE: John MacArthur - 9/7/2008 4:54:00 PM
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colliefan
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quote:
It doesn't conflict scripture, he is making a lot of "untrue" assumptions, and he is then in error. In fact the Bible does address those who are in error instead.
point out where you believe he is in error based on scripture
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RE: John MacArthur - 9/7/2008 4:56:00 PM
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humbleinspirit
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His view of self-esteem is wrong, I cannot come up with a Biblical reference for that one.
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RE: John MacArthur - 9/7/2008 5:08:45 PM
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colliefan
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quote:
ORIGINAL: humbleinspirit
His view of self-esteem is wrong, I cannot come up with a Biblical reference for that one.
Then you are wrong. The Bible trumps what you feel about self-esteem.
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RE: John MacArthur - 9/7/2008 6:17:10 PM
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bride48
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quote:
ORIGINAL: humbleinspirit
His view of self-esteem is wrong, I cannot come up with a Biblical reference for that one.
Matt 16:24
24 Then Jesus said to His disciples, "If anyone desires to come after Me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow Me.
NKJV
Phil 2:5-8
5 Let this mind be in you which was also in Christ Jesus, 6 who, being in the form of God, did not consider it robbery to be equal with God, 7 but made Himself of no reputation, taking the form of a bondservant, and coming in the likeness of men. 8 And being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself and became obedient to the point of death, even the death of the cross.
NKJV
Prov 12:15
15 The way of a fool is right in his own eyes,
But he who heeds counsel is wise.
NKJV
Matt 23:12
12 And whoever exalts himself will be humbled, and he who humbles himself will be exalted.
NKJV
Rom 12:3-4
3 For I say, through the grace given to me, to everyone who is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think, but to think soberly, as God has dealt to each one a measure of faith.
NKJV
James 1:9-11
9 Let the lowly brother glory in his exaltation, 10 but the rich in his humiliation, because as a flower of the field he will pass away. 11 For no sooner has the sun risen with a burning heat than it withers the grass; its flower falls, and its beautiful appearance perishes. So the rich man also will fade away in his pursuits.
NKJV
These are only a few Scriptures on how we should view ourselves. I'll share more tomorrow, if you like. But I sure can't find anything in Scripture that promotes self-esteem. MacArthur confirms my findings.
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Joyfully,
DebbieLynne
Thankfulness (my latest blog entry)
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RE: John MacArthur - 9/7/2008 6:21:12 PM
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humbleinspirit
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If you do not have good self esteem then you are incapable of loving God the way that He intended.
And I will say it again, John MacArthur's definition of self esteem is wrong, so we are really talking apples and oranges at this point, but you're gonna believe what you believe, so its a completely different world view.
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RE: John MacArthur - 9/7/2008 6:24:37 PM
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bride48
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I forgot the most direct Scripture on self-esteem:
Phil 2:3
3 Let nothing be done through selfish ambition or conceit, but in lowliness of mind let each esteem others better than himself.
NKJV
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Joyfully,
DebbieLynne
Thankfulness (my latest blog entry)
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RE: John MacArthur - 9/7/2008 6:25:39 PM
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humbleinspirit
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quote:
ORIGINAL: bride48
I forgot the most direct Scripture on self-esteem:
Phil 2:3
3 Let nothing be done through selfish ambition or conceit, but in lowliness of mind let each esteem others better than himself.
NKJV
Self esteem is not about being selfish though.
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RE: John MacArthur - 9/7/2008 6:27:24 PM
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bride48
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quote:
ORIGINAL: humbleinspirit
quote:
ORIGINAL: bride48
I forgot the most direct Scripture on self-esteem:
Phil 2:3
3 Let nothing be done through selfish ambition or conceit, but in lowliness of mind let each esteem others better than himself.
NKJV
Self esteem is not about being selfish though.
It most certainly is!
_____________________________
Joyfully,
DebbieLynne
Thankfulness (my latest blog entry)
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RE: John MacArthur - 9/7/2008 6:29:25 PM
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humbleinspirit
Posts: 18135
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quote:
ORIGINAL: bride48
quote:
ORIGINAL: humbleinspirit
quote:
ORIGINAL: bride48
I forgot the most direct Scripture on self-esteem:
Phil 2:3
3 Let nothing be done through selfish ambition or conceit, but in lowliness of mind let each esteem others better than himself.
NKJV
Self esteem is not about being selfish though.
It most certainly is!
Thats where we are going to have to agree to disagree then. It may be about self, but not being selfish.
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RE: John MacArthur - 9/7/2008 6:32:24 PM
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bride48
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It's about valuing ourselves, as if we have some intrinic good is us.
_____________________________
Joyfully,
DebbieLynne
Thankfulness (my latest blog entry)
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RE: John MacArthur - 9/7/2008 6:34:08 PM
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humbleinspirit
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quote:
ORIGINAL: bride48
It's about valuing ourselves, as if we have some intrinic good is us.
If you do not value yourself or have a poor self image then are are not good for anybody. Besides, we are a new creation in Christ, therefore you get good self esteem (through God).
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RE: John MacArthur - 9/7/2008 6:48:17 PM
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bride48
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But first, we must see our wretchness apart from Jesus.
Rom 3:5-18
5 But if our unrighteousness demonstrates the righteousness of God, what shall we say? Is God unjust who inflicts wrath? (I speak as a man.) 6 Certainly not! For then how will God judge the world? 7 For if the truth of God has increased through my lie to His glory, why am I also still judged as a sinner? 8 And why not say, "Let us do evil that good may come"?--as we are slanderously reported and as some affirm that we say. Their condemnation is just.
9 What then? Are we better than they? Not at all. For we have previously charged both Jews and Greeks that they are all under sin. 10 As it is written:
"There is none righteous, no, not one;
11 There is none who understands;
There is none who seeks after God.
12 They have all turned aside;
They have together become unprofitable;
There is none who does good, no, not one."
13 "Their throat is an open tomb;
With their tongues they have practiced deceit";
"The poison of asps is under their lips";
14 "Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness."
15 "Their feet are swift to shed blood;
16 Destruction and misery are in their ways;
17 And the way of peace they have not known."
18 "There is no fear of God before their eyes."
NKJV
And that's MacArthur's point! Until we see how morally bankrupt we are in and of ourselves, we see no need for God's gracious salvation!
By the way, did you read the links Colliefan provided?
_____________________________
Joyfully,
DebbieLynne
Thankfulness (my latest blog entry)
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RE: John MacArthur - 9/7/2008 6:52:02 PM
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humbleinspirit
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This isn't about sin, this is about whether you value yourself or not. James Dobson had something to say on this in this link.
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RE: John MacArthur - 9/7/2008 6:58:20 PM
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bride48
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quote:
ORIGINAL: humbleinspirit
This isn't about sin, this is about whether you value yourself or not. James Dobson had something to say on this in this link.
This thread Is, if I understand correctly, about MacArthur. His objections to the self-esteem movement always go back to the issue of sin. So yes, it's exactly about sin!
_____________________________
Joyfully,
DebbieLynne
Thankfulness (my latest blog entry)
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RE: John MacArthur - 9/7/2008 7:00:28 PM
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humbleinspirit
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quote:
ORIGINAL: bride48
quote:
ORIGINAL: humbleinspirit
This isn't about sin, this is about whether you value yourself or not. James Dobson had something to say on this in this link.
This thread Is, if I understand correctly, about MacArthur. His objections to the self-esteem movement always go back to the issue of sin. So yes, it's exactly about sin!
Not when he has the definition of it wrong, James Dobson knows about the subject of low self esteem, however I guess John MacArhur knows better than him though.
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RE: John MacArthur - 9/7/2008 7:12:08 PM
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bride48
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quote:
ORIGINAL: humbleinspirit
quote:
ORIGINAL: bride48
quote:
ORIGINAL: humbleinspirit
This isn't about sin, this is about whether you value yourself or not. James Dobson had something to say on this in this link.
This thread Is, if I understand correctly, about MacArthur. His objections to the self-esteem movement always go back to the issue of sin. So yes, it's exactly about sin!
Not when he has the definition of it wrong, James Dobson knows about the subject of low self esteem, however I guess John MacArhur knows better than him though.
I'd say Scripture trumps psychology. Dobson admits he's not an authority on Scripture--he's merely a psychologist. Since Scripture is more authoratative than psychology, I'll go with Scripture.
Anyway, supper's ready, so I'll continue this discussion tomorrow. Have a good evening.
_____________________________
Joyfully,
DebbieLynne
Thankfulness (my latest blog entry)
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RE: John MacArthur - 9/7/2008 9:00:39 PM
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colliefan
Posts: 2785
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quote:
And I will say it again, John MacArthur's definition of self esteem is wrong, so we are really talking apples and oranges at this point, but you're gonna believe what you believe, so its a completely different world view.
We must see ourselves through the lens of all scripture. Taken out of context we can have a "worm" view of ourselves. But taken in view of all scripture, we are sinners saved by the grace of God. Having no righteousness of our own, but having, through the cross, the righteousness of Christ. With that view, we are His masterpiece, created in for good works which He created before the worlds began.
Childhood abuse - been there, got the t-shirt - can cloud how we see the Father. We see him as our father treated us. We see him as abusive, or cold and distant. The other side of the coin is just as dangerous, as sort of loving grandfather that will not discipline his grandchildren.
We remain sinners saved by grace. If we are to be honest with ourselves, without that grace, we would be capable of the most grevious evil. John Newton, the man who penned the hymn "Amazing Grace," as he faced old age said "I am a great sinner who serves a great God."
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RE: John MacArthur - 9/8/2008 11:49:54 AM
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TheosCentric
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quote:
ORIGINAL: humbleinspirit
His view of self-esteem is wrong, I cannot come up with a Biblical reference for that one.
And that is the problem I have with your views. You simply say he is wrong, but provide no proof that he is wrong. Makes me wonder if you can even admit yourself when you are wrong.
Either refute properly or keep silent.
Simply saying someone is wrong is not evidence to prove that someone is wrong.
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"Missions exists because worship doesn't." -- John Piper, Let the Nations be Glad
God at the Center
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RE: John MacArthur - 9/8/2008 12:30:33 PM
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davemiller7
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You are coming at this from a secular point of view. In "the world view," your point is probably true. However God does not see us as we see ourselves (and others). John MacArthur is speaking from a Biblical viewpoint.
-Dave
quote:
ORIGINAL: humbleinspirit
quote:
ORIGINAL: bride48
It's about valuing ourselves, as if we have some intrinic good is us.
If you do not value yourself or have a poor self image then are are not good for anybody. Besides, we are a new creation in Christ, therefore you get good self esteem (through God).
_____________________________
-Dave
The Prayer of Protection
The light of God surrounds me,
The love of God enfolds me,
The power of God protects me,
The presence of God watches over me.
Wherever I am, God is.
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RE: John MacArthur - 9/8/2008 2:00:17 PM
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bride48
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I just read the link to Dobson's article that Mike (Humbleinspirit) posted. Dobson begins by writing a sob story about the lifetime of rejection that Lee Harvey Oswald endured, and how that pain led him to assassinate JFK. While Dobson added a brief disclaimer that Oswald's struggles didn't excuse his behavior, the main argument does diminish the idea of personal responsibility. That attitude is exactly what MacArthur is combatting!
I grew up with rejection myself, but I was taught that the treatment I received in no way entitled me to behave badly. Maybe my mom should have validated my feelings, but her focus was on shaping my character. That's pretty much what Scripture teaches, if I understand it properly.
Seems to me that MacArthur simply wants Christians to stop whining about their "low self-esteem" long enough to accept personal responsibility. At that point, they can see the amazing grace of God through Jesus.
But I've noticed that, very often, people who claim to have "low self-esteem" tend to excuse their sin. I suspect MacArthur has noticed the same problem. I have a family member who claims to have "low self-esteem," and yet insists she is a good person and doesn't need either forgiveness nor salvation. In 37 years, I have not been able to interest her in the Gospel because, despite her "low self-esteem," she is unwilling to view herself as needing grace and mercy. As I see it, MacArthur's teachings are aimed at people like her!
_____________________________
Joyfully,
DebbieLynne
Thankfulness (my latest blog entry)
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