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RE: John MacArthur - 9/6/2008 2:42:03 AM
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justasheep
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quote:
By basing our indentity in Christ we know that we are victors instead of victims. We know that JC is not ashamed to call us his brothers and sisters. We know we have been transfered from the Kindom of Darkness to the Kingdom of Light.
Yes indeed colliefan, our esteem comes from who we are in Christ. Paul made it clear in Phillipians 2 how we are to view the self.
3 Do nothing from rivalry or conceit, but in humility count others more significant than yourselves. 4 Let each of you look not only to his own interests, but also to the interests of others. 5 Have this mind among yourselves, which is yours in Christ Jesus
Paul asumes that we esteem ourselves just fine, in fact commands us to take our eyes of ourselves and look to the interests of others. Seems very different than that which is often preached from today's Joel Osteen types. Sorry to call him out but he's the most visible offender. Paul would no doubt anathematize Joel just as he did to the Galations who were preaching a different Gospel. JM has been preaching the same gospel that Paul preached for fourty years. No he's not infalliable, just very faithful to the Word of God and to the Bride for whom Christ died.
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Life is wasted if we do not grasp the glory of the cross, cheerish it for the treasure that it is, and cleave to it as the highest price of every pleasure and the deepest comfort of every pain.
John Piper
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RE: John MacArthur - 9/6/2008 8:16:16 AM
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humbleinspirit
Posts: 18135
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From: Just Outside of Boston
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quote:
ORIGINAL: TheosCentric
quote:
ORIGINAL: humbleinspirit
Quotes from these links:Trap #3: Focusing on Self-Esteem
quote:
[A very prevalent approach today is to build a child’s self-esteem. That method assumes that if a child sees himself as good, noble, and wonderful, he’ll not only behave better, but he will also treat others better. This method turns self-love into a virtue.
The truth is that much of the modern effort to spark kids’ self-esteem is simply pouring gasoline on a runaway fire. It encourages already selfish kids to think they are justified in wanting their own way. It makes you as a parent think you have to defer to the child, no matter what, because the child has a right to express himself freely, so he feels good about himself. All of that only escalates out-of-control behavior and feeds the worst tendencies of human depravity. Want to ensure that your child will become a delinquent? Feed his self-esteem and then compound the problem by refusing to correct him when he is wrong.
Self-esteem is based on an unbiblical perspective that denies original sin and the doctrine of total depravity. The Bible has nothing positive to say about self-esteem, self-love, or any other variety of self-centeredness. It teaches your child to deny himself, not love himself (Luke 9:23).
On Children and self-esteem, he is wrong.
Actually, I think he is dead on target. Why do you think he is wrong?
Well for starters that "is not" what self-esteem is. Some kids suffer from low self esteem from negativity in the home. I should know as I was one of them. I was never encouraged to dis obey my parents at all.
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and this link too:
God's Pattern for Children, Pt.2
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"Doctors, if they believe they have found a treatment, do not pretend to fully comprehend the disorder. For now, scientists now ADHD is not the result of brain damage, it is not the result of wrong diet...listen to this...and they're sure it's not the result of bad parenting." You know what bad parenting is? Spanking your child.
Wrong again. While there is a problem, he is surely throwing the baby out with the bathwater.
(edited to better point to links indicated.)
Does science and psychology trump the Word of God?
See, this is some of the issues that I have with Mr. MacArthur. He automatically thinks that becuase children do not behave it is because of bad parenting, this is simply not true. And if you want to challenge me on this, then ask Dr. James Dobson about the subject.
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ORIGINAL: earthless
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ORIGINAL: mcleod
I am not emergent nor a foolish Bapist, Vineyard, Luthern,....etc. etc.. I am a follower of Jesus Christ and his words. I believe in the Father, the Son and Holy Spirit. I study the bible and really don't read of other books except history and political processes. I do listen to others when speaking and ask God to show me how I can change to bring him glory.
May I say What I find is that once you think you have it down pat and all of the answers. The evil one puts tought patterns in your mind how great you are. Not so says God on that matter.
Again, where has MacArthur or anyone in this thread claimed to know it all?
I sure do hope you know there is a grand difference between being absolutely sure about the core essentials of Christianity versus someone who claims or thinks he knows it all.
He doesn't, however he very much comes across as all knowledgable and pompous though.
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ORIGINAL: bride48
I've always thought the concept of "self-esteem" ran counter to Scripture. Most of my Christian friends thought I was nuts. When I finally heard MacArthur teach on it, he said basically the same things I'd seen through my personal Bible Study. Maybe he reads the same Bible I read. 
Maybe we need to know who we are in Christ, that helps a person's self confidence. Low self esteem is "low" self confidence instead.
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ORIGINAL: colliefan
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ORIGINAL: bride48
I've always thought the concept of "self-esteem" ran counter to Scripture. Most of my Christian friends thought I was nuts. When I finally heard MacArthur teach on it, he said basically the same things I'd seen through my personal Bible Study. Maybe he reads the same Bible I read.
Our "self-esteem" must be based on our identity in Christ, nothing more nothing less. The current "self-esteem" that is taught in the educational system has produced nothing but self-absorbed narcisists.
Well said.
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RE: John MacArthur - 9/6/2008 8:45:06 AM
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Peter_Gunn
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quote:
ORIGINAL: humbleinspirit
Well for starters that "is not" what self-esteem is. Some kids suffer from low self esteem from negativity in the home. I should know as I was one of them. I was never encouraged to dis obey my parents at all.
I've never actually met, known or heard of anyone that didn't "suffer from low self-esteem". What some consider low self-esteem, or low self-image, is in reality, their God-given conscience working within them.
No child has to be "encouraged to disobey" either...it comes quite naturally, thank you.
And there is a difference between disciplining children and abusing them. Personally, I don't think there is anywhere near as much "abuse" as is reported. But, thanks to folks like Oprah and Dr. Spock, we've bought into the lie that discipline=abuse.
What we actually see being played out in the world around us is a lack of personal responsibility. We've been told that the reason we make bad choices is because our parents somehow abused us and created a negative home environment.
There you go...that's the ticket! It's not my fault...it's my parents' fault!!!
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RE: John MacArthur - 9/6/2008 8:48:32 AM
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humbleinspirit
Posts: 18135
Joined: 4/13/2005
From: Just Outside of Boston
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But that isn't what low self esteem is. Are we talking about bad parenting or low self esteem? They are not the same.
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RE: John MacArthur - 9/6/2008 9:32:41 AM
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TheosCentric
Posts: 1938
Joined: 2/26/2006
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quote:
ORIGINAL: humbleinspirit
quote:
ORIGINAL: TheosCentric
quote:
ORIGINAL: humbleinspirit
Quotes from these links:Trap #3: Focusing on Self-Esteem
quote:
[A very prevalent approach today is to build a child’s self-esteem. That method assumes that if a child sees himself as good, noble, and wonderful, he’ll not only behave better, but he will also treat others better. This method turns self-love into a virtue.
The truth is that much of the modern effort to spark kids’ self-esteem is simply pouring gasoline on a runaway fire. It encourages already selfish kids to think they are justified in wanting their own way. It makes you as a parent think you have to defer to the child, no matter what, because the child has a right to express himself freely, so he feels good about himself. All of that only escalates out-of-control behavior and feeds the worst tendencies of human depravity. Want to ensure that your child will become a delinquent? Feed his self-esteem and then compound the problem by refusing to correct him when he is wrong.
Self-esteem is based on an unbiblical perspective that denies original sin and the doctrine of total depravity. The Bible has nothing positive to say about self-esteem, self-love, or any other variety of self-centeredness. It teaches your child to deny himself, not love himself (Luke 9:23).
On Children and self-esteem, he is wrong.
Actually, I think he is dead on target. Why do you think he is wrong?
Well for starters that "is not" what self-esteem is. Some kids suffer from low self esteem from negativity in the home. I should know as I was one of them. I was never encouraged to dis obey my parents at all.
If there's negativity in the home, then that's bad parenting. Should children be encouraged to disobey their parents? If a child disobeys, should he not be punished? The self-esteem movement says no. The Bible says yes. And that's what MacArthur is saying.
quote:
quote:
quote:
and this link too:
God's Pattern for Children, Pt.2
quote:
"Doctors, if they believe they have found a treatment, do not pretend to fully comprehend the disorder. For now, scientists now ADHD is not the result of brain damage, it is not the result of wrong diet...listen to this...and they're sure it's not the result of bad parenting." You know what bad parenting is? Spanking your child.
Wrong again. While there is a problem, he is surely throwing the baby out with the bathwater.
(edited to better point to links indicated.)
Does science and psychology trump the Word of God?
See, this is some of the issues that I have with Mr. MacArthur. He automatically thinks that becuase children do not behave it is because of bad parenting, this is simply not true. And if you want to challenge me on this, then ask Dr. James Dobson about the subject.
Where does MacArthur say that misbehavior is a result of bad parenting? That is not what he is saying at all. Children misbehave because of sin. My 1 year-old goes back to touching the light socket because of sin, even though she may have just gotten a pop on the hand. The look she may give me tells me she's defying my command. Children have a sin nature. What I know of MacArthur with regards to parenting is this: we cannot save our children, but we must do our best as parents under God's authority to raise them according to Biblical principles. That includes spanking our children, and other punishments as we see fit to teach our children. Dobson has fallen into the self-esteem trap on some areas, but at least he's still and advocate for spanking.
You apparently have completely misread MacArthur.
_____________________________
"Missions exists because worship doesn't." -- John Piper, Let the Nations be Glad
God at the Center
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RE: John MacArthur - 9/6/2008 9:34:28 AM
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humbleinspirit
Posts: 18135
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From: Just Outside of Boston
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quote:
If there's negativity in the home, then that's bad parenting. Should children be encouraged to disobey their parents? If a child disobeys, should he not be punished? The self-esteem movement says no. The Bible says yes. And that's what MacArthur is saying.
But that is not what I was taught. Can you back up your claim?
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RE: John MacArthur - 9/6/2008 10:38:49 AM
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TheosCentric
Posts: 1938
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quote:
ORIGINAL: humbleinspirit
quote:
If there's negativity in the home, then that's bad parenting. Should children be encouraged to disobey their parents? If a child disobeys, should he not be punished? The self-esteem movement says no. The Bible says yes. And that's what MacArthur is saying.
But that is not what I was taught. Can you back up your claim?
You have yet to back up yours.
_____________________________
"Missions exists because worship doesn't." -- John Piper, Let the Nations be Glad
God at the Center
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RE: John MacArthur - 9/6/2008 10:40:16 AM
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humbleinspirit
Posts: 18135
Joined: 4/13/2005
From: Just Outside of Boston
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quote:
ORIGINAL: earthless
So we have just more empty accusations.. no evidence just opinion. 
That is just your oppinion, I made my case clearly.
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RE: John MacArthur - 9/6/2008 11:01:27 AM
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humbleinspirit
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From: Just Outside of Boston
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But Earthless, the link that I provided was a written version of what he has preached online. If is ok to ask, what is it that I have not effectively proven? I sincerely ask because I do not know which is unclear.
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RE: John MacArthur - 9/6/2008 11:21:27 AM
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earthless
Posts: 6205
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From: where pigeons are wearing sweaters....
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I will go back and review it, thank you.
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Probing Today's Religious Movements | Promoting Doctrinal Discernment & Critical Thinking | Providing Reasons for Christian Faith & Ethics
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RE: John MacArthur - 9/6/2008 12:47:51 PM
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colliefan
Posts: 2785
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: Raleigh, NC
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Heb 12:4 - 11 (HCSB) 4In struggling against sin, you have not yet resisted to the point of shedding your blood. 5And you have forgotten the exhortation that addresses you as sons: My son, do not take the Lord’s discipline lightly, or faint when you are reproved by Him; 6 for the Lord disciplines the one He loves, and punishes every son whom He receives.£
7Endure it as discipline: God is dealing with you as sons. For what son is there whom a father does not discipline? 8But if you are without discipline—which all£ receive£—then you are illegitimate children and not sons.£ 9Furthermore, we had natural fathers discipline us, and we respected them. Shouldn’t we submit even more to the Father of spirits and live?£ 10For they disciplined us for a short time based on what seemed good to them, but He does it for our benefit, so that we can share His holiness.£ 11No discipline seems enjoyable at the time, but painful. Later on, however, it yields the fruit of peace£ and righteousness to those who have been trained by it.£
G3809
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παιδεία
paideia
pahee-di'-ah
From G3811; tutorage, that is, education or training; by implication disciplinary correction:—chastening, chastisement, instruction, nurture.
There is a vast difference between abuse and discipline. Abuse is acting in anger and discipline is acting in love. The laster is what I am sure of MacAurther is speaking,
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RE: John MacArthur - 9/6/2008 5:09:00 PM
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bride48
Posts: 5581
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: Near Boston
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Peter_Gunn
quote:
ORIGINAL: humbleinspirit
Well for starters that "is not" what self-esteem is. Some kids suffer from low self esteem from negativity in the home. I should know as I was one of them. I was never encouraged to dis obey my parents at all.
I've never actually met, known or heard of anyone that didn't "suffer from low self-esteem". What some consider low self-esteem, or low self-image, is in reality, their God-given conscience working within them.
No child has to be "encouraged to disobey" either...it comes quite naturally, thank you.
And there is a difference between disciplining children and abusing them. Personally, I don't think there is anywhere near as much "abuse" as is reported. But, thanks to folks like Oprah and Dr. Spock, we've bought into the lie that discipline=abuse.
What we actually see being played out in the world around us is a lack of personal responsibility. We've been told that the reason we make bad choices is because our parents somehow abused us and created a negative home environment.
There you go...that's the ticket! It's not my fault...it's my parents' fault!!!
That's exactly what MacArthur says.
_____________________________
Joyfully,
DebbieLynne
Thankfulness (my latest blog entry)
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RE: John MacArthur - 9/6/2008 6:22:49 PM
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humbleinspirit
Posts: 18135
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From: Just Outside of Boston
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But that doesn't mean he is right though.
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RE: John MacArthur - 9/6/2008 9:47:57 PM
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colliefan
Posts: 2785
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From: Raleigh, NC
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quote:
ORIGINAL: humbleinspirit
But that doesn't mean he is right though.
I can pretty much guess that MacArthur would be clearly against child abuse. But there are those who believe spanking=abuse; and that a child simply needs a time-out as corrective action. For some children this will work, but the strong-willed child will see this as getting his parent's attention. What is more loving, getting a swat on the rear for touching a stove or having a child get a burn from touching a hot-burner?
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RE: John MacArthur - 9/6/2008 10:12:18 PM
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humbleinspirit
Posts: 18135
Joined: 4/13/2005
From: Just Outside of Boston
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quote:
ORIGINAL: colliefan
quote:
ORIGINAL: humbleinspirit
But that doesn't mean he is right though.
I can pretty much guess that MacArthur would be clearly against child abuse. But there are those who believe spanking=abuse; and that a child simply needs a time-out as corrective action. For some children this will work, but the strong-willed child will see this as getting his parent's attention. What is more loving, getting a swat on the rear for touching a stove or having a child get a burn from touching a hot-burner?
Again, are we talking about self esteem or bad parenting instead? My comment is in regards to self esteem.
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RE: John MacArthur - 9/6/2008 10:27:37 PM
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colliefan
Posts: 2785
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quote:
Again, are we talking about self esteem or bad parenting instead? My comment is in regards to self esteem.
Self-esteem, as it exists today, is much over valued. Proper parenting teaches a child where exists in relation to his parents, those in authority (God to his teachers), and his peers. He needs to know that while he has value and is loved, he needs to know the world does not revolve around him. As he grows, he needs to know the importance of giving back to his world.
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RE: John MacArthur - 9/6/2008 10:34:55 PM
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humbleinspirit
Posts: 18135
Joined: 4/13/2005
From: Just Outside of Boston
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quote:
ORIGINAL: colliefan
quote:
Again, are we talking about self esteem or bad parenting instead? My comment is in regards to self esteem.
Self-esteem, as it exists today, is much over valued. Proper parenting teaches a child where exists in relation to his parents, those in authority (God to his teachers), and his peers. He needs to know that while he has value and is loved, he needs to know the world does not revolve around him. As he grows, he needs to know the importance of giving back to his world.
Yes, I can say amen to that, however I will not subscribe to John MacArthur's version of self esteem though.
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RE: John MacArthur - 9/7/2008 7:15:04 AM
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TheosCentric
Posts: 1938
Joined: 2/26/2006
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quote:
ORIGINAL: humbleinspirit
quote:
ORIGINAL: colliefan
quote:
Again, are we talking about self esteem or bad parenting instead? My comment is in regards to self esteem.
Self-esteem, as it exists today, is much over valued. Proper parenting teaches a child where exists in relation to his parents, those in authority (God to his teachers), and his peers. He needs to know that while he has value and is loved, he needs to know the world does not revolve around him. As he grows, he needs to know the importance of giving back to his world.
Yes, I can say amen to that, however I will not subscribe to John MacArthur's version of self esteem though.
You've provided links to a couple things that you disagree with MacArthur on, but have not say why you disagree with them. What is your view on them? Why do you disagree with him? How is his view unBiblical?
I think that is what the rest of us are trying to understand from you.
_____________________________
"Missions exists because worship doesn't." -- John Piper, Let the Nations be Glad
God at the Center
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RE: John MacArthur - 9/7/2008 8:57:27 AM
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humbleinspirit
Posts: 18135
Joined: 4/13/2005
From: Just Outside of Boston
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But I thought that I pointed out that John MacArthur was wrong in regard to his view of low self esteem. He says that self esteem means disobeying parents. This is simply not true. Self esteem is how you feel about yourself, not finding yourself in rebellion against parents.
On A.D.D., he claims that it is not because of people having a hard time concentrating, but rather bad parenting also. I disagree with this as well. Some kids really do have A.D.D. and do extemely well when taking the medications. While what I am about to say is not provided in the links, Mr. MacArthur believes that it is just kids disobeying instead, that they do not have A.D.D. as I am saying that they do.
Does that help clarify things?
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RE: John MacArthur - 9/7/2008 2:05:31 PM
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TheosCentric
Posts: 1938
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quote:
ORIGINAL: humbleinspirit
But I thought that I pointed out that John MacArthur was wrong in regard to his view of low self esteem. He says that self esteem means disobeying parents. This is simply not true. Self esteem is how you feel about yourself, not finding yourself in rebellion against parents.
On A.D.D., he claims that it is not because of people having a hard time concentrating, but rather bad parenting also. I disagree with this as well. Some kids really do have A.D.D. and do extemely well when taking the medications. While what I am about to say is not provided in the links, Mr. MacArthur believes that it is just kids disobeying instead, that they do not have A.D.D. as I am saying that they do.
Does that help clarify things?
That does clarify, but I think he said self-esteem means disobeying parents. I would add that how you feel about yourself can have a positive/negative effect on how you deal with your parents, as well as how they treat you can also have a positive/negative effect on your self-esteem. Hence the bad parenting reference. The problem MacArthur has with the self-esteem movement is that it suggests to not spank our children because that would lower their self-esteem. He is combating the discipline issue that arises form the self-esteem movement.
I don't think that MacArthur says that all kids who have A.D.D. are simply disobeying their parents. You're generalizing just as you did on the self-esteem issue. I would venture to say that most kids diagnosed with A.D.D. are mis-diagnosed for any number of reasons (i.e. drug sales, numbers padding, etc.). That's not to say that there are some legitimate cases of A.D.D., but I would say that most are fraudulent and the parents either don't care and/or don't won't to deal with the problem, so accept the diagnosis. That is where the bad parenting comes in. A child consistently misbehaving, now diagnosed with A.D.D., now has an excuse. He can discount sin as the root issue. And the parents have an excuse.
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"Missions exists because worship doesn't." -- John Piper, Let the Nations be Glad
God at the Center
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RE: John MacArthur - 9/7/2008 2:31:32 PM
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colliefan
Posts: 2785
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: Raleigh, NC
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Spanking
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RE: John MacArthur - 9/7/2008 2:40:39 PM
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colliefan
Posts: 2785
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From: Raleigh, NC
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Submission
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RE: John MacArthur - 9/7/2008 2:53:52 PM
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colliefan
Posts: 2785
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: Raleigh, NC
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self-esteem in children
This article is one of about 200 on the website dealing with the issue of self-esteem
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