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RE: Is Jesus God - 6/24/2007 2:46:14 PM
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Breanna_
Posts: 28
Joined: 6/8/2007
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Yahshuah-is-Yahweh
The word Lord is only a title/subtranslation of the original hebrew word Yahweh. And no brother, Im far from lost, but say as you please.
Yahshuah's name means Yahweh is Salvation, or Yahweh Saves. And thats exactly what God is, "Our Savior".
Because he saved humanity which believeth on the name of Yahshuah.
In Zechariah 12:10, Yahweh said that he(himself) would be pierced.....so move forward in time to the cruxefiction.....hmmmm who was pierced while on the cross??????
No matter how you want to beleive, it doesnt change the truth....God is one, and his name is Yahshuah!
Thats not even the original! The fact is how do you translate someones name? Its impossible i have never understood it. God did not reveal his name but he said i am that i am suggesting he is the all powerful God.
Maybe he didnt give his real name because he didnt ewant all these different versions and translations of it, he might not have wanted you to call him anything else but father or God is my saviour, why call him in an ancient old name thats been translated a zillion times?
God wants us to know him as i am that i am. He is the father, the everlasting, the alpha and omega, isnt that enough without stating some other languge when your not a liguist.
I have read the original and it didnt translate to what you suggest, if fact if you read the original youll find its not letters but lines and dots very old
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RE: Is Jesus God - 6/24/2007 2:48:30 PM
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Breanna_
Posts: 28
Joined: 6/8/2007
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quote:
ORIGINAL: dazzle97
Hmm,
After thinking about it, I agree that my view needs modifying, but I wasn't meaning that we can't know the Father my looking at the son. Just some aspects of the Father (physical form for instance).
I was also attempting to explain why Jesus wasn't able to know the 'day or the hour' but the 'Father only' in Mat 24:36. Also the fact that our 3.5 dimensional world seems inadequate to fully describe, the Godhead, that 'extra dimensions' would be required. I think my choice of the term 'different views' doesn't convey what I was trying to say. Back to the drawing board!
Thanks for your feedback
We are only human and God is so beyond us, that yes it is hard to picture three people being one but they are one in spirit just as a man and wife become one after marriage.
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RE: Is Jesus God - 6/24/2007 5:59:48 PM
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figmentPez
Posts: 2063
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: TX
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: The Hunter
I'm normally pretty good at following the complex abstract things, but I don't understand what you two are arguing about. It looks like you're both making the same point in different ways. Maybe I should try again when I'm less tired..
It seems to me the answer is so semantical that it's not even distinguishable. Like '1/3*3' I mean, even assuming the answer was "No" on some obscure technicality, he was still created by God, he lived as commanded by God, he fulfilled prophecies dictated by God, using God's authority, he died fulfilling God's purpose, and he was resurrected to deliver God's message, serving God's interests on God's (and Man's) behalf. He clearly represented God, serving also as an ideal representative of humanity. -- Literally acting as a bridge between God and Man.. So what's the difference in the end whether he was a perfectly divine\man or a divinely perfect\man? Isn't it the same either way?
We could pose the arguement that 'Hunter' and I are two different identities fulfilling a singular purpose (one is a profile on a website, the other is a person in the world), or one single identity going by two names. If we're the same then it's a non-issue and it's easier to explain anyway. If we're different, it doesn't even matter since he still fulfils my purpose, words, and direction, by my authority, and does in this world what I would do with my own hands if I could fit in here without destroying the server. Insults directed at him go onward to me by default unless they are regarding the profile itself, and anyone who knows him, knows me through him..
A primitive comparison, but it's just an example. That's my view anyway.. It explains part of the trinity and lines up with the Bible's tendency to employ concepts that are simultaneously true from both directions.. But it's really much easier to skip past the complex semantical technicalities that do no good anyway and just say "Yes." like all the other people who don't need these confusing rationales to understand the simple things.
... Unless I'm stupidly missing something important. Entirely possible.
Yes, you're missing something very important. The Bible doesn't just say that Jesus Christ was a representative of God, it says He IS God.
John 1:1,14
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
...
14And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us, and we saw His glory, glory as of the only begotten from the Father, full of grace and truth.
The "Hunter" that is your online "avatar" is not a person in it's own right. Your online avatar does not have the right to call itself an I, independent of you. Your online "Hunter" has not always existed with you. Your online "Hunter" does not have it's own spirit, it does not have it's own thoughts, it does not have it's own desires.
The Son of God is not a created thing. The Son of God is rightfully worshipped as God because the Son of God is God, just as much God as the Father is God.
_____________________________
I make this challenge to all Christians:
Read Daniel 7:13-14
And tell me: Who do you say that the Son of Man is?
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RE: Is Jesus God - 6/24/2007 6:03:23 PM
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figmentPez
Posts: 2063
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: TX
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Breanna_
God did not reveal his name
Yes, He did. He revealed His name for all generations. It is the tetragrammaton, YHWH, translated to English as LORD.
quote:
We are only human and God is so beyond us, that yes it is hard to picture three people being one but they are one in spirit just as a man and wife become one after marriage.
Actually, God is one in a way that husband and wife can never be. Husband and wife are one flesh, but they are still "we". God is one and is "I" as well as "we". God is of one substance. Husband and wife, despite being of the same substance, and one flesh, are still individuals, they are two substances, they are not in unity in the same way as God is.
_____________________________
I make this challenge to all Christians:
Read Daniel 7:13-14
And tell me: Who do you say that the Son of Man is?
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RE: Is Jesus God - 6/27/2007 10:21:01 PM
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click-n
Posts: 1
Joined: 6/26/2007
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This is something that has always separated me from most Christians. I know that I am born again. I have Christ in me, but I have never believed that Jesus Christ was God.
What makes it so hard to believe that Jesus was a man just like you and I? Why do we have to make it something that is so confusing? If the first Adam was only a man why wouldn't the second be just a man also?
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RE: Is Jesus God - 6/27/2007 10:25:24 PM
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figmentPez
Posts: 2063
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: TX
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: click-n
This is something that has always separated me from most Christians. I know that I am born again. I have Christ in me, but I have never believed that Jesus Christ was God.
How do you know you're born again? If you disbelieve the testimony of the Apostles, why do you believe that Jesus Christ has the power to save? Why do you disbelieve scripture when God declares that He alone is salvation? Why do you disbelieve Christ's words when He declares Himself to be the Son of Man of Daniel 7:13-14? Why do you disbelieve Jesus Christ when He claims to be LORD, the I AM?
If you reject that Jesus Christ is God, then you are not Christian. You are not following the Christ, because the Christ is God (and prophecy tells us this must be so). If you are not following the Christ that was prophesied about, then you are not a Christian, you are not saved, you are not born again.
quote:
What makes it so hard to believe that Jesus was a man just like you and I? Why do we have to make it something that is so confusing? If the first Adam was only a man why wouldn't the second be just a man also?
It is impossible to believe that Jesus was just a man because the Bible declares that Jesus Christ is God. Among other things, Jesus Christ is worshiped. Men are not worshiped. It is only right to worship Jesus Christ because He is God.
< Message edited by figmentPez -- 6/27/2007 10:27:42 PM >
_____________________________
I make this challenge to all Christians:
Read Daniel 7:13-14
And tell me: Who do you say that the Son of Man is?
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RE: Is Jesus God - 6/30/2007 5:57:40 AM
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tony.nz
Posts: 284
Joined: 7/6/2005
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click-n
If you have "Christ in you" - how can He only be a man?
My problem is this. The Lord said 'Unless you believe that I Am He, you shall die in your sins". I believe that Jesus Christ is God, you believe that He isn't. Since these are mutually exclusive viewpoints, one of us is believing in the wrong Jesus, one of us is not saved. See, if Jesus is not God, then I am worshipping someone as God, who is not, that is called idolatry. On the other hand, if He is God, then you are not giving Him the worship that is due to Him, you are refusing to believe God (James 2:19), you are not doing the work of God, which is to believe in Him. (John 6:29)
Do you mind if I ask what denomination you belong to?
Oh, by the way Hunter, I don't think figment-pez and I are having a disagreement, we are pretty much on the same wavelength on this, he slightly misunderstood what I was saying because I didn't make myself clear, and I was trying to clarify my point. He was quite right, Jesus really is the Son of the Father, it is more than an analogy.
< Message edited by tony.nz -- 6/30/2007 6:06:07 AM >
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RE: Is Jesus God - 7/2/2007 6:26:29 PM
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figmentPez
Posts: 2063
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: TX
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: tony.nz
Oh, by the way Hunter, I don't think figment-pez and I are having a disagreement, we are pretty much on the same wavelength on this, he slightly misunderstood what I was saying because I didn't make myself clear, and I was trying to clarify my point. He was quite right, Jesus really is the Son of the Father, it is more than an analogy.
I'd like to second this statement. Through all of your posts Tony, I've been in agreement over the general message I've felt you've been trying to convey. I've only disagreed on the wording and some specifics. Talking about the nature of God is a very difficult task, because God is unlike anything else. He is greater and grander and so much more complex than anything in creation. In some respect, I'm sure that all of our words describing Him are just mere shadows of the full truth, even if they are truthful.
_____________________________
I make this challenge to all Christians:
Read Daniel 7:13-14
And tell me: Who do you say that the Son of Man is?
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RE: Is Jesus God - 7/2/2007 7:17:07 PM
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PROPHETSONG
Posts: 78
Joined: 9/21/2006
From: PHILADELPHIA
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: figmentPez
In some respect, I'm sure that all of our words describing Him are just mere shadows of the full truth, even if they are truthful.
This is definitely truth. It will take an eternity to discover his fullness.
_____________________________
JER 1: 18 Today I have made you a fortified city, an iron pillar and a bronze wall to stand against the whole land--against the kings of Judah, its officials, its priests and the people of the land. WWW.PROPHETSONG.MYSITE.COM
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RE: Is Jesus God - 7/3/2007 6:00:38 AM
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Ezra
Posts: 1778
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: click-n
This is something that has always separated me from most Christians. I know that I am born again. I have Christ in me, but I have never believed that Jesus Christ was God.
Why? Did you not read what Thomas said when he saw the Risen Lord?
quote:
What makes it so hard to believe that Jesus was a man just like you and I?
No one has a problem with believing that Jesus was a Man. The problem arises when people must also acknolwedge that He is God. He is the God-Man, fully God and fully sinless Man. Undoubtedly a mystery, but also undoubtedly without controversy (1 Tim. 3:16).
quote:
Why do we have to make it something that is so confusing?
There's really nothing confusing. God took human form, was born of a virgin, lived a perfect life on earth, died for all our sins, and rose again for our justification. Since with God all things are possible, and nothing is impossible, this is very plain and simple.
quote:
If the first Adam was only a man why wouldn't the second be just a man also?
Because the sin of the first Adam tainted the human race, and all human beings are born sinners. However the conception of Christ was supernatural. Thus He was a sinless Man, and unlike any man that ever lived. Had He not been absolutely free from sin, He could not have offered Himself as a sacrifice for our sins.
_____________________________
And whosoever will, let him take the Water of Life freely. Revelation 22:17
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RE: Is Jesus God - 7/3/2007 8:24:34 PM
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earthless
Posts: 6205
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: where pigeons are wearing sweaters....
Status: offline
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When Jesus came to Caesarea Philippi, he asked his disciples the mother of all questions, "Who do you say that I am?" (Matthew 16:15, Mark 8:29, Luke 9:20).
Mormons answer this question by saying that Jesus is the spirit brother of Lucifer; Jehovah Witnesses answer by saying that Jesus is the archangel Michael; New Agers say Jesus is an avatar or enlightened messenger.
Jesus, however, answered by claiming that he was God.
First, Jesus claimed to be the unique Son of God. As a result, the Jewish leaders tried to kill him because in "calling God His own Father, Jesus was making himself equal with God" (John 5:18).
In John 8:58 Jesus went so far as to use the very words by which God revealed himself to Moses from the burning bush (Exodus 3:14). To the Jews this was the epitome of blasphemy for they knew that in doing so Jesus was clearly claiming to be God.
On yet another occasion, Jesus explicitly told the Jews: "I and the Father are one.' Again the Jews picked up stones to stone him, but Jesus said to them "I have shown you many great miracles from the Father. For which of these do you stone me? We are not stoning you for any of these, ' replied the Jews, 'but for blasphemy, because you, a mere man, claim to be God (John 10:30-33).
Furthermore, Jesus made an unmistakable claim to deity before the Chief Priests and the whole Sanhedrin. Caiaphas the High Priest asked him: "Are you the Christ, the Son of the Blessed One? 'I am,' said Jesus. And you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the Mighty One and coming on the clouds of heaven" (Mark 14:61-62).
A biblically illiterate person might well have missed the import of Jesus' words.
Caiaphas and the Council, however, did not. They knew that in saying he was "the Son of Man" who would come "on the clouds of heaven" he was making a overt reference to the Son of Man in Daniel's prophecy (Daniel 7:13-14).
And in doing so, he was not only claiming to be the preexistent Sovereign of the Universe but prophesying that he would vindicate his claim by judging the very court that was now condemning him.
Moreover, by combining Daniel's prophecy with David's proclamation in Psalm 110, Jesus was claiming that he would sit upon the throne of Israel's God and share God's very glory.
To students of the Old Testament this was the height of "blasphemy," thus "they all condemned him as worthy of death" (Mark 14:64).
Finally, Jesus claimed to possess the very attributes of God.
For example, he claimed omniscience by telling Peter, "this very night, before the rooster crows, you will disown me three times" (Matthew 26:34); declared omnipotence by not only resurrecting Lazarus (John 11:43) but by raising himself from the dead (see John 2:1(); and professed omnipresence by promising he would be with his disciples "to the very end of the age" (Matthew 28:20).
Not only so, but Jesus said to the paralytic in Luke 5:20, "Friend, your sins are forgiven." In doing so, he claimed a prerogative reserved for God alone. In addition, when Thomas worshiped Jesus saying, "My Lord and my God!" (John 20:20), Jesus responded with commendation rather than condemnation.
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RE: Is Jesus God - 7/4/2007 9:11:29 PM
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tony.nz
Posts: 284
Joined: 7/6/2005
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Excellent post, Earthless. Particularly the link between Mark 14:61-62, and Daniel 7:13-14/Psalm 110. Learned something there, I did.
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RE: Is Jesus God - 7/5/2007 10:17:16 AM
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Pengie
Posts: 1229
Joined: 3/12/2007
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quote:
John 1:1,14
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
...
14And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us, and we saw His glory, glory as of the only begotten from the Father, full of grace and truth.
Yes, Jesus is King of Kings. Before Him every knee will bow. He is Lord.
He is God. Part of a Godhead Trinity consisting of God The Father, God The Son And The Holy Spirit.
I know it's hard to wrap your mind around, but imagine your three fingers, seperate, yet joined at the hand. That is The Trinity -God , And Jesus is our bridge to that precious God. Without Him we are nothing. God the Father put Jesus over all. So yes - Jesus is God.
_____________________________
Pengie
Pengie's Puddle
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RE: Is Jesus God - 7/5/2007 11:56:10 PM
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PROPHETSONG
Posts: 78
Joined: 9/21/2006
From: PHILADELPHIA
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: tony.nz
Excellent post, Earthless. Particularly the link between Mark 14:61-62, and Daniel 7:13-14/Psalm 110. Learned something there, I did.
I agree very well done
_____________________________
JER 1: 18 Today I have made you a fortified city, an iron pillar and a bronze wall to stand against the whole land--against the kings of Judah, its officials, its priests and the people of the land. WWW.PROPHETSONG.MYSITE.COM
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RE: Is Jesus God - 7/6/2007 12:58:12 AM
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Hischild1994
Posts: 1434
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: earthless
When Jesus came to Caesarea Philippi, he asked his disciples the mother of all questions, "Who do you say that I am?" (Matthew 16:15, Mark 8:29, Luke 9:20).
Mormons answer this question by saying that Jesus is the spirit brother of Lucifer; Jehovah Witnesses answer by saying that Jesus is the archangel Michael; New Agers say Jesus is an avatar or enlightened messenger.
Jesus, however, answered by claiming that he was God.
First, Jesus claimed to be the unique Son of God. As a result, the Jewish leaders tried to kill him because in "calling God His own Father, Jesus was making himself equal with God" (John 5:18).
In John 8:58 Jesus went so far as to use the very words by which God revealed himself to Moses from the burning bush (Exodus 3:14). To the Jews this was the epitome of blasphemy for they knew that in doing so Jesus was clearly claiming to be God.
On yet another occasion, Jesus explicitly told the Jews: "I and the Father are one.' Again the Jews picked up stones to stone him, but Jesus said to them "I have shown you many great miracles from the Father. For which of these do you stone me? We are not stoning you for any of these, ' replied the Jews, 'but for blasphemy, because you, a mere man, claim to be God (John 10:30-33).
Furthermore, Jesus made an unmistakable claim to deity before the Chief Priests and the whole Sanhedrin. Caiaphas the High Priest asked him: "Are you the Christ, the Son of the Blessed One? 'I am,' said Jesus. And you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the Mighty One and coming on the clouds of heaven" (Mark 14:61-62).
A biblically illiterate person might well have missed the import of Jesus' words.
Caiaphas and the Council, however, did not. They knew that in saying he was "the Son of Man" who would come "on the clouds of heaven" he was making a overt reference to the Son of Man in Daniel's prophecy (Daniel 7:13-14).
And in doing so, he was not only claiming to be the preexistent Sovereign of the Universe but prophesying that he would vindicate his claim by judging the very court that was now condemning him.
Moreover, by combining Daniel's prophecy with David's proclamation in Psalm 110, Jesus was claiming that he would sit upon the throne of Israel's God and share God's very glory.
To students of the Old Testament this was the height of "blasphemy," thus "they all condemned him as worthy of death" (Mark 14:64).
Finally, Jesus claimed to possess the very attributes of God.
For example, he claimed omniscience by telling Peter, "this very night, before the rooster crows, you will disown me three times" (Matthew 26:34); declared omnipotence by not only resurrecting Lazarus (John 11:43) but by raising himself from the dead (see John 2:1(); and professed omnipresence by promising he would be with his disciples "to the very end of the age" (Matthew 28:20).
Not only so, but Jesus said to the paralytic in Luke 5:20, "Friend, your sins are forgiven." In doing so, he claimed a prerogative reserved for God alone. In addition, when Thomas worshiped Jesus saying, "My Lord and my God!" (John 20:20), Jesus responded with commendation rather than condemnation.
Great post.
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RE: Is Jesus God - 7/6/2007 8:19:36 AM
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Covaan_Meshuga
Posts: 3642
Joined: 6/8/2005
From: a mother who let me live
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Earthless, your post was knock-your-socks-off good, but there are portions of it that really bother me. I hope you don't mind my bringing them up.
quote:
ORIGINAL: earthless
To the Jews this was the epitome of blasphemy for they knew that in doing so Jesus was clearly claiming to be God. I would suggest, "To the unenlightened Jew, this was the epitome of blasphemy for they knew that in doing so Jesus was clearly claiming to be God."
quote:
ORIGINAL: earthless
On yet another occasion, Jesus explicitly told the Jews: "I and the Father are one.' Again the Jews picked up stones to stone him, but Jesus said to them "I have shown you many great miracles from the Father. For which of these do you stone me? We are not stoning you for any of these, ' replied the Jews, 'but for blasphemy, because you, a mere man, claim to be God (John 10:30-33). You obviously know your stuff, so while John writes "Jews" in this case, you know this was short for the Jewish leaders. Because others don't always know what you know, I would suggest that you write "Jewish leaders."
quote:
ORIGINAL: earthless
To students of the Old Testament this was the height of "blasphemy," thus "they all condemned him as worthy of death" (Mark 14:64). Earthless, most of those to whom Messiah went were students of the first Scriptures, and these were the only true Scriptures in existence; therefore, some would have condemned Him, but the enlightened ones would not have.
Earthless, this was such quality writing that I only bring these things up because so many in Christendom are so prejudiced against Jews because they (1) misunderstand the Scriptures and because (2) so many teachers do not realize that these things need to be explained and/or broken down to their real components. I don't know you, having only now seen your name, but I think you know what I mean.
_____________________________
Abiyah
"Ladies and gentlemen, there are things that you will only be able to learn by the weakest among us, and when you snuff them out, you are the one that loses." ~~Gianna Jesson, 1977 LA, CA, saline abortion survivor
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RE: Is Jesus God - 2/4/2008 4:06:00 AM
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Ephesians4_32
Posts: 1698
Joined: 4/30/2005
From: The Crossroads of America
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: NobodyImportant POST #50
So what's the difference in the end whether he was a perfectly divine\man or a divinely perfect\man? Isn't it the same either way?
How would a man create everything that has been created? And why are these things created for Jesus Christ?
Colossians 1
14In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins:
15Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:
16For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:
17And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.
18And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.
Revelation 4
11Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honour and power: for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created.
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