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RE: Is Jesus God - 6/16/2007 11:24:06 PM
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figmentPez
Posts: 2063
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Yahshuah-is-Yahweh
To prove to you that Yahshuah is the name of god, read Isaiah 45:23
"I have sworn by myself, the word is gone out of my mouth, in righteousness, and shall not return, That unto me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear."
Phillipians 2:10
"That at the name of Yahshuah (Jesus) every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth; "
Matthew 28:19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the NAME of the Father, and of the Son, andof the Holy Ghost:
(matthew speaks of the father, son and holyghost having, ONE NAME.)
So what could that name be in which we must be baptized?
Answer: Acts 2:38 "Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of JESUS Christ(YAHSHUAH) for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive thegift of the Holy Ghost."
So much ignorance, I'm not sure if you're just lacking knowledge, or if you're intentionally distorting the truth. It's hard to say, you leave out such important points in your quoting of scripture.
The first thing you need to realize is that your idea of what it means to do something in the name of another is wrong. When a person does an act in the name of another, it doesn't have anything to do with saying "in the name of _____". One can be completely silent and still do work in the name of God. That's because doing something in the name of God is to do it in His authority, to do it because one is acting as His proxy, to do it as if He were the one here doing it. It has nothing to do with saying magic words.
For example, when a police office says "Stop! In the name of the law!", he isn't saying that "the law" is the proper name of the authority that he is working for. Around here, the "name" he'd actually be acting in the name of would be the City of Houston, Texas, or the County of Harris, Texas. It's a similar thing in these passages. Jesus/Yeshua/Yahshuah isn't the name of the Son, even though it is His name.
Let me quote Exodus 3:14-15 again:
14God said to Moses, "I AM WHO I AM"; and He said, "Thus you shall say to the sons of Israel, 'I AM has sent me to you.'"
15God, furthermore, said to Moses, "Thus you shall say to the sons of Israel, 'The LORD, the God of your fathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, has sent me to you ' This is My name forever, and this is My memorial-name to all generations.
"The LORD... This is My name forever." LORD is an English translation of the tetragrammaton, sometimes refered to as YHWH or Yahweh (though, no one is sure what vowels should be added, not to mention that Yahweh is just an English approximation of Hebrew). Here, we have the LORD declaring His name for all generations, yet you're claiming that God lied, and that His name is other than what He told Moses it is.
I think we need to take a closer look at the context of the verses you quoted, as well as a few others that talk about the name of God.
You quoted Isaiah 45:23, Philippians 2:10 and Acts 2:38. Interesting, but you really shouldn't have stripped out Philippians 2:11 and you certainly shouldn't ignore Isaiah 42:8, 47:4, 48:2, 51:15 and 54:5. In addition, you'll also want to look at Joel 2:26-32.
Philippians 2:10-11
10so that at the name of Jesus EVERY KNEE WILL BOW, of those who are in heaven and on earth and under the earth, 11and that every tongue will confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.
That confession that "Jesus Christ is Lord" is very important. Because it's not just a confession that Jesus Christ is a leader, it's a confession that Jesus Christ is LORD. Every tongue will confess that Jesus Christ is YHWH, because that is His name for all time. I'm going to suppose you want proof that the Greek word Lord is an appropriate translation of the Hebrew word YHWH. Simple enough.
Matthew 4:7
Jesus said to him, "On the other hand, it is written, ' YOU SHALL NOT PUT THE LORD YOUR GOD TO THE TEST.'"
Deuteronomy 6:16
16"You shall not put the LORD your God to the test, as you tested Him at Massah.
The Greek word for Lord in Matthew 4:7 is kurios, the word LORD in Deut 6:16 is, of course, YHWH. You'll find the same is true of the other OT quotations in the NT. When LORD is translated into Greek, it's translated as kurios, a Greek word that means, roughly, lord or master.
Shall we look at the missing quotations form Isaiah now?
Isaiah 42:8
8 "I am the LORD; that is my name! I will not give my glory to another or my praise to idols.
Isaiah 47:4
Our Redeemer—the LORD Almighty is his name— is the Holy One of Israel.
Isaiah 48:2
2 you who call yourselves citizens of the holy city and rely on the God of Israel— the LORD Almighty is his name:
Isaiah 51:15
15 For I am the LORD your God, who churns up the sea so that its waves roar— the LORD Almighty is his name.
Isaiah 54:5
For your Maker is your husband— the LORD Almighty is his name— the Holy One of Israel is your Redeemer; he is called the God of all the earth.
Is the LORD lying here? Is His name not LORD? Is the prophet Isaiah wrong in declaring that the LORD is the name of God?
Shall we look at Joel now?
Joel 2:26-32 (emphasis mine)
26"You will have plenty to eat and be satisfied And praise the name of the LORD your God, Who has dealt wondrously with you; Then My people will never be put to shame. 27"Thus you will know that I am in the midst of Israel, And that I am the LORD your God, And there is no other; And My people will never be put to shame. 28"It will come about after this That I will pour out My Spirit on all mankind; And your sons and daughters will prophesy, Your old men will dream dreams, Your young men will see visions. 29"Even on the male and female servants I will pour out My Spirit in those days. 30"I will display wonders in the sky and on the earth, Blood, fire and columns of smoke. 31"The sun will be turned into darkness And the moon into blood Before the great and awesome day of the LORD comes. 32"And it will come about that whoever calls on the name of the LORD Will be delivered; For on Mount Zion and in Jerusalem There will be those who escape, As the LORD has said, Even among the survivors whom the LORD calls.
LORD, LORD, LORD, over and over again, time and time again in the OT, YHWH is declared to be the name of the LORD. Nearly six thousand times is LORD used in the OT. Yet, Yeshua is only used 30, and not once to refer to God. Why do you think that is? Where does scripture retract Moses's declaration that God's name is LORD for all generations?
The name of Jesus Christ is LORD. LORD is the name of the Father, it is the name of the Son, it is the name of the Holy Spirit. One God, three persons, one holy name. That name is LORD.
_____________________________
I make this challenge to all Christians:
Read Daniel 7:13-14
And tell me: Who do you say that the Son of Man is?
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RE: Is Jesus God - 6/16/2007 11:36:41 PM
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figmentPez
Posts: 2063
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From: TX
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Yahshuah-is-Yahweh
FATHER, SON, AND HOLY GHOST, are three "Titles" of ONE GOD.
No, the Father, Son and Holy Spirit are not treated like titles. The way scripture treats titles like Prince of Peace, Lion of the tribe of Judah, Chief Shepherd, Author and Finisher of our Fatith, is completely different than how scripture describes the Father, Son and Holy Spirit. If you have eyes to see and ears to hear, I can show you the scripture that shows that Father, Son and Holy Spirit are distinct persons. And I can also show you the major errors that your modalistic heresy will inevitably lead to.
quote:
And his name is Yahshuah(jesus)....Amen
The LORD's name is LORD, just as He told Moses.
quote:
Isaiah 9:6 says it all...so simple
You grossly misunderstand Isaiah 9:6.
6For a child will be born to us, a son will be given to us; And the government will rest on His shoulders; And His name will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Eternal Father, Prince of Peace.
God's name, LORD, is indeed known as Father, Son and Holy Spirit. However, these three are not one person. The Father is not the Son, nor the Holy Spirit. The Son is not the Father, nor the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit is not the Father, nor the Son. Yet, none-the-less, Father, Son and Holy Spirit are one name, one God.
quote:
All that research stuff does nothing but confuses poeple. All through the bible god says he is ONE and ALONE. And he has NO EQUAL and NO OTHER besides him, and never will be. HE ALONE IS ALPHA-OMEGA.
Yes, God is One, and God alone is God. But God is none-the-less three persons. This is what scripture teaches, and there is no other position that is in harmony with the entire council of scripture.
quote:
So for anyone to say that Yahshuah is not Yahweh, is like saying God is not our savior.
What I've been saying from the beginning is that Jesus Christ is LORD. You're the only one who has even come close to saying that Jesus Christ is not LORD, by denying that LORD is His name as it was given to Moses.
quote:
God of Israel simply took on the form of a man(son), became flesh, preached to the gentiles, seen of the angels..etc...
Colossians simply says that the fulness of the GODHEAD BODILY, dwells in Yahshuah.
Yes, this is true. God became man, he preached, he was seen by angles, He is the fullness of the Godhead, dwelling bodily in the man Jesus Christ. Trinitarian doctrine teaches all of this.
quote:
Like I said in a earlier post, not in 3 persons co-existing as a triune or trinity.
You're wrong here. Your modalistic teachings are at odds with many of of Christ's statements in the Gospels, among other passages of scripture, both OT and NT. By claiming that God is not three persons, you're claiming that Jesus Christ is a liar and that His testimony cannot be trusted, because He testifies alone, without His father as a second witness.
quote:
God is one.......and to HIS name(not three names) every knee shall bow, and every tongue shall confess.........Now ask yourself this question..
What is his name?
The one name of God is LORD. It is His name forever, His memorial name for all generations. It was given to Moses and it is still His name. God does not change, God does not lie. His name is the same as it always has been. Just as God is the same as He has always been. GOD IS. He is the Living One. He is the Existent One. God can truly declare "I AM WHAT I AM" because God is the only one who is always what He is and does not change. He was and is and is to come, eternal.
EDIT: fixed quote tags
< Message edited by figmentPez -- 6/17/2007 12:29:41 AM >
_____________________________
I make this challenge to all Christians:
Read Daniel 7:13-14
And tell me: Who do you say that the Son of Man is?
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RE: Is Jesus God - 6/16/2007 11:42:40 PM
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Yahshuah-is-Yahweh
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The word Lord is only a title/subtranslation of the original hebrew word Yahweh. And no brother, Im far from lost, but say as you please.
Yahshuah's name means Yahweh is Salvation, or Yahweh Saves. And thats exactly what God is, "Our Savior".
Because he saved humanity which believeth on the name of Yahshuah.
In Zechariah 12:10, Yahweh said that he(himself) would be pierced.....so move forward in time to the cruxefiction.....hmmmm who was pierced while on the cross??????
No matter how you want to beleive, it doesnt change the truth....God is one, and his name is Yahshuah!
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RE: Is Jesus God - 6/16/2007 11:55:39 PM
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Yahshuah-is-Yahweh
Posts: 9
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[quote:
God of Israel simply took on the form of a man(son), became flesh, preached to the gentiles, seen of the angels..etc...
Colossians simply says that the fulness of the GODHEAD BODILY, dwells in Yahshuah.
Yes, this is true. God became man, he preached, he was seen by angles, He is the fullness of the Godhead, dwelling bodily in the man Jesus Christ. Trinitarian doctrine teaches all of this.
correction: Trinitarians do not teach that the fullness of the godhead dwells bodily in Yahshuah, which means that god himself is in one body. Trinitarians teach that the godhead is 3 distinct intities who co-exist as one god, in 3 seperate bodies.
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RE: Is Jesus God - 6/17/2007 12:09:10 AM
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figmentPez
Posts: 2063
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: TX
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Yahshuah-is-Yahweh
correction: Trinitarians do not teach that the fullness of the godhead dwells bodily in Yahshuah, which means that god himself is in one body. Trinitarians teach that the godhead is 3 distinct intities who co-exist as one god, in 3 seperate bodies.
Please don't proclaim to know what trinitarian doctrine teaches, because you don't. The fullness of diety did indeed dwell in Jesus Christ. How it is possible that the Son is not the Father, nor the Spirit, yet is still the fullness of God is not something that can be grasped by humanity, but it is none-the-less what scripture teaches. Trinitarians don't teach that God is three seperate bodies, its arguable that the Father and the Holy Spirit don't have bodies at all. Father, Son and Holy Spirit are one substance, three persons. Human langauge is lacking in describing this, but it is what scripture teaches, however, I doubt you will actually listen to scripture, you haven't so far.
_____________________________
I make this challenge to all Christians:
Read Daniel 7:13-14
And tell me: Who do you say that the Son of Man is?
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RE: Is Jesus God - 6/17/2007 12:10:48 AM
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figmentPez
Posts: 2063
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: TX
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Yahshuah-is-Yahweh
The word Lord is only a title/subtranslation of the original hebrew word Yahweh. And no brother, Im far from lost, but say as you please.
Yahshuah's name means Yahweh is Salvation, or Yahweh Saves. And thats exactly what God is, "Our Savior".
Because he saved humanity which believeth on the name of Yahshuah.
In Zechariah 12:10, Yahweh said that he(himself) would be pierced.....so move forward in time to the cruxefiction.....hmmmm who was pierced while on the cross??????
No matter how you want to beleive, it doesnt change the truth....God is one, and his name is Yahshuah!
God's name is LORD/YHWH/Yahweh, however you want to spell it. I've already stated several times that I am well aware that LORD is merely the English translation of the Hebrew original, if you were reading my posts, you would know that. God gave His name to Moses, and His name is still that name. The LORD was pierced on the cross.
God is so much more than our savior. He is that he is. God is eternally existent, the only one that doesn't change. That is the name He gave to Moses, that is His name forever.
< Message edited by figmentPez -- 6/17/2007 12:30:59 AM >
_____________________________
I make this challenge to all Christians:
Read Daniel 7:13-14
And tell me: Who do you say that the Son of Man is?
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RE: Is Jesus God - 6/17/2007 12:24:40 AM
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PeterD
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Yes, Jesus is God!
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RE: Is Jesus God - 6/17/2007 12:25:10 AM
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Yahshuah-is-Yahweh
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so your basically saying that you beleive that Yahshuah is Yahweh, but Yahweh isn't Yahshuah? Im not being sarcastic by no means brother.
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RE: Is Jesus God - 6/17/2007 12:33:41 AM
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Kath
Posts: 17146
Joined: 2/28/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Yahshuah-is-Yahweh
FATHER, SON, AND HOLY GHOST, are three "Titles" of ONE GOD.
Like I said in a earlier post, not in 3 persons co-existing as a triune or trinity.
Yahshuah-is-Yahweh
What you are saying here is a violation of our Terms of Service. To continue will put your membership status in jeopardy.
Please read our Terms of Service and Range of Doctrine before posting further. You may also want to read our Statement of Faith.
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RE: Is Jesus God - 6/17/2007 12:34:17 AM
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figmentPez
Posts: 2063
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From: TX
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Yahshuah-is-Yahweh
so your basically saying that you beleive that Yahshuah is Yahweh, but Yahweh isn't Yahshuah? Im not being sarcastic by no means brother.
Yahshuah/Jesus is Yahweh. Yahweh is Yeshua/Jesus, but the Father is also Yahweh and Yahweh is the Father, the Holy Spirit is Yahweh as well and Yahweh is the Hoy Spirit. The Son is not the Father, nor the Spirit, but all three are Yahweh. This is what scripture teaches.
_____________________________
I make this challenge to all Christians:
Read Daniel 7:13-14
And tell me: Who do you say that the Son of Man is?
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RE: Is Jesus God - 6/17/2007 7:31:31 AM
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tony.nz
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It is indeed impossible for man to fully comprehend the nature and character of God, we can only do so to the extent that He is revealed in scripture. And, even that which scripture reveals, is difficult to comprehend. The best way we can summarise it, is through what is known as the trinitarian doctrine. God, the Creator, took on the form of a man and walked among us in the flesh. In Him, all the fullness of the Godhead dwelt bodily. He told us that, if we had seen Him, "we had seen the Father". Yet, the Father has been seen by no man, He is revealed through Jesus Christ, who is the declaration of "the Word of God". The reason He (the Father) is seen by no man, is that there is no one place where He is found, He fills all. That I understand, to mean that He exists beyond our space-time continuam. The Holy Spirit, the third "person" of the Godhead, is also fully God, and also not found in one place, yet He indwells those of us who are born again. Thus, to the best of our ability, we understand that there is one God, three "persons" (for lack of the ability of human language to describe Him), avoiding the division of saying that there are three Gods. And, we certainly do not say that there are three seperate bodies distinct from one another.
There are those who are inclined to mock or disbelieve this, saying that it is contradictory. To the extent that language establishes meaningful concepts, we lack the skills to adequately describe this picture, yet it is what God has revealed through Scripture. Jesus declares that He is God, yet He is distinct from the Father and the Holy Spirit, yet at one with them in a way that does not negate the principle that there is one God, before whom and after whom, there are no others. We must be satisfied that God is a mystery beyond our full comprehension.
Now, anyone can call themselves a "Christian", and believe what ever they like. At the end of the day, however, God owes not one of us a single thing. We have walked in our own ways, according to our own thoughts and desires. So, we can philosophize all we wish about who may or may not be saved, about what we think is "fair", but He sets the rules. Who are we to answer back? And, according to my understanding of scripture, Jesus declares that He is God, and that if we look upon Him, in faith believing His Word, we will be saved. Furthermore, my understanding of scripture is that there is no other way. There is no other name by whom we may be saved. Apart from Him, I was lost and without hope. So, this is not a popular message, but God is not running an election campaign to be elected God.
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RE: Is Jesus God - 6/17/2007 3:35:12 PM
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PeterD
Posts: 425
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quote:
ORIGINAL: PeterD
Yes, Jesus is God!
Jesus is the Lord Jesus Christ
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RE: Is Jesus God - 6/19/2007 10:51:33 PM
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dazzle97
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Hi All,
I'm new here and this is my first post. I'd like to weigh in on this subject an also bounce a view that I have about the Trinity.
As an ex-engineer, I try and pull everything back to technical things that I am comfortable with, so when I was confronted by someone trying to belittle my faith, this view just came to me.
I saw the God as a bit like a technical drawing of, say, a house.
The plan view of the house, just like front and side elevation of the house, are all equally valid representations of the house itself, but looking at the plan view you cannot tell the houses' height.
Looking at the front elevation, you cannot tell the houses depth.
To get a full appreciation of the house, all three views need to be observed.
I hope this isn't heresy. If it is, tell me where I am going wrong.
On the original topic I agree that Jesus is God.
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RE: Is Jesus God - 6/20/2007 4:05:45 PM
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figmentPez
Posts: 2063
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: TX
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quote:
ORIGINAL: dazzle97
Hi All,
I'm new here and this is my first post. I'd like to weigh in on this subject an also bounce a view that I have about the Trinity.
As an ex-engineer, I try and pull everything back to technical things that I am comfortable with, so when I was confronted by someone trying to belittle my faith, this view just came to me.
I saw the God as a bit like a technical drawing of, say, a house.
The plan view of the house, just like front and side elevation of the house, are all equally valid representations of the house itself, but looking at the plan view you cannot tell the houses' height.
Looking at the front elevation, you cannot tell the houses depth.
To get a full appreciation of the house, all three views need to be observed.
I hope this isn't heresy. If it is, tell me where I am going wrong.
On the original topic I agree that Jesus is God.
Well, since what you're speaking about here doesn't reflect what scripture teaches about the nature of God, it would technically be heresy.
Here are the faults I find with it:
First, the persons of the Godhead aren't merely different views of God. The Son isn't simply the Father viewed from some other angle. Now, the Bible does have many different descriptions of God, various references to Him that reveal different aspects of who He is. Titles of God's like "Author and Finisher of Our Faith", "Good Shepherd", "Lion of the Tribe of Judah", etc. However, these titles are treated very very differently than the persons of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit.
Second, we know the Father and the Spirit because we know the Son. The Son is the very image of God. Those who have seen and know the Son, have seen and know the Father as well.
John 14:7-9
"If you had known Me, you would have known My Father also; from now on you know Him, and have seen Him." 8Philip said to Him, "Lord, show us the Father, and it is enough for us." 9Jesus said to him, "Have I been so long with you, and yet you have not come to know Me, Philip? He who has seen Me has seen the Father; how can you say, 'Show us the Father'?
This statement is in conflict with your analogy that "Looking at the front elevation, you cannot tell the houses depth." By looking at the Son, we can know the Father.
Don't feel bad about choosing a bad anology to describe God. All analogies are inherently bad analogies to use in reference to God. God is unique, in the very truest sense of the word. There are none like the LORD. No analogy, no matter how carefully chosen, can possibly be an accurate reflection of God's nature.
_____________________________
I make this challenge to all Christians:
Read Daniel 7:13-14
And tell me: Who do you say that the Son of Man is?
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RE: Is Jesus God - 6/20/2007 7:15:13 PM
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tony.nz
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I think heresy is too strong a word. Even a "technical heresy". We all try to understand the nature of God to the best of our ability, and none of us have got there yet. When I first became a Christian, and the trinity was explained to me, the idea I had in my head was more like three seperate guys sitting around a table and agreeing with each other on everything. This wasn't heresy, it was immaturity. If I chose this view now, it would be heresy because I have a more mature understanding of scripture. That doesn't mean I don't have some way to go yet.
In any case, some people need a physical way of seeing things, and I think you have picked it apart too much, as I am sure that it was not meant as a full scriptural explanation. What it did highlight effectively, was the fact that in order to have some understanding of the nature of God, you do have to have in view an understanding of the nature of the Father, the nature of the Son, and the nature of the Holy Spirit. That does not deny the fact that Jesus Christ is the full image of God. Rather, the opinion that we can fully understand God in Jesus Christ alone, without a seperate view of the Father and the Holy Spirit, comes close to modalism, in my view. When the Lord said "if you have seen me, you have seen the Father", this was a claim to deity and oneness with the Father, it was not a claim that He was the Father.
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RE: Is Jesus God - 6/20/2007 7:35:27 PM
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tony.nz
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Just to clarify, to say that we can have a seperate view of the persons of the Godhead, does not mean that we view them as seperate. That too, is (I feel) effectively highlighted in dazzle's analogy.
Your point, however, that all analogies are inadequate, is taken. My point is that although an analogy is inadequate, that does not mean that it is not useful. Everything we are told in scripture about God, is an analogy, and none of them alone fully describe Him. Probably, all of them taken together, do not fully describe Him.
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RE: Is Jesus God - 6/20/2007 8:32:42 PM
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billinjackson
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quote:
ORIGINAL: bentzsur
I heard and seen this from people and on sites but never in the word? can some one help me understand if this is so and if not can some one tell me where this notion comes from
Hi Bentzsur,
Here are some Scriptures that give us the proof that the Scriptures proclaim Jesus as God:
Jn 1:1 - the Word was God
Jn 1:14-15 - glory of Father's only Son, full of grace and truth
Jn 8:19 - if you knew me, you would know my Father
Jn 8:58-59 - I assure you, before Abraham was, I AM (Reference to exodus)
Jn 10:30-33 - the Father and I are one (see Ex 3:14, 20:7; Lev 19:12, 24:14-16)
Jn 10:38 - the Father is in me and I am in the Father
Jn 12:45 - whosoever sees me sees the one who sent me
Jn 14:8-12 - whoever had seen has seen the Father
Jn 20:28 - Jesus accepts Thomas's "my Lord and my God"
Col 2:9 - in him dwells whole fullness of deity bodily
Acts 20:28 - church of God he acquired with his blood
Eph 1:7 - in him we have redemption by his blood
1Jn 1:7 - blood of his Son Jesus cleanses from all sin
tit 2;13 - glory of our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ
On top of this the Early Church Fathers proclaimed Jesus as lord from Clement of Rome in around ad70 to Ignatius of Antioch in 107ad, etc.... The list is loooonnggg!
In essance, you can rest assured that the Divinity of Christ is Scriptural and historical.
In Christ
Bill
_____________________________
Our hearts were made for thee oh Lord and they are restless until they rest in thee - St. Augustine of Hippo
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RE: Is Jesus God - 6/20/2007 9:12:28 PM
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dazzle97
Posts: 3
Joined: 6/19/2007
From: Christchurch, NZ
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Hmm,
After thinking about it, I agree that my view needs modifying, but I wasn't meaning that we can't know the Father my looking at the son. Just some aspects of the Father (physical form for instance).
I was also attempting to explain why Jesus wasn't able to know the 'day or the hour' but the 'Father only' in Mat 24:36. Also the fact that our 3.5 dimensional world seems inadequate to fully describe, the Godhead, that 'extra dimensions' would be required. I think my choice of the term 'different views' doesn't convey what I was trying to say. Back to the drawing board!
Thanks for your feedback
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RE: Is Jesus God - 6/21/2007 6:30:12 AM
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tony.nz
Posts: 284
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I would suggest that the only descriptions we have of God, are analogical rather than definitive. Including His names, and His identity as “Father, Son, and Holy Spirit”.
If I told you that “God is like that box”, you would be perplexed if you took that to mean I was saying that God is a six-sided cardboard object, covered with a brand name of, say, potatoe chips. If however I explained that I mean that God can be understood in a multidimensional way, rather than in one or two dimensions, you should then understand that I was using the box as an analogy to present a useful idea. I would not be suggesting that it was an adequate and definitive likeness of God.
The idea that God is the Father, and the Son, has therefore been misinterpreted by two groups that I would like to mention. Mormons have taken the definitive interpretation, and concluded that the Father is in the form of a male person, and having had sex with Mary, produced Jesus the Son. Muslims have also taken the same definitive interpretation, however rightly concluding that this idea is preposterous and probably blasphemous, have mostly chosen to believe that this is what Christians believe, creating in their own mind a straw man argument against Christianity.
The idea however that there is one God seen as three persons, the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, is however viewed in Christianity in a somewhat analogical light. The manner in which these interrelationships are established as God, existing outside of our space/time envelope, is not understood at all in any definitive sense. Simply put, our finite mind cannot understand the infinite nature of God, and to give us some level of understanding, God uses a useful analogy. The three fold nature or personality of God, Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, spoken of while retaining the concept of Unity, that there is One God, is therefor not contradictory as some choose to maintain. It is, however, something of a mystery.
The idea of the identity of Jesus is critical to Christianity, because it defines the meaning of the idea that, in Him, God was fully manifested and declared to us, in the flesh.
John1:1
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 The same was in the beginning with God. 3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. 4 In him was life; and the life was the light of men. 5 And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.................................................... 10 He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not.11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not. 12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: 13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God. 14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.
It is also critical, because it gives us an understanding of the astonishingly personal Act of God, in choosing a position of humiliation, in order to restore a lost relationship. So, he bled and suffered in the flesh, taking upon Himself the penalty or wages of our sin, death itself. The stain and stench of sin cannot dwell in the eternal Holy Presence of God, He has taken that stain and stench away, not through an intermediary or scapegoat, but by How own Act. Thus He first reveals His love for us, and asks for our response.
This comes with a warning, “Unless you believe that I Am He, you shall die in your sins.” And, this I believe, is the tipping point, where true Christianity departs from all sects, theories, and religious or secular views. The Lord asks Simon Peter the million dollar question, “Who do you say I Am” The answer, given through Peter by inspiration of God, is the rock upon which He says ”I will build my church”. This rock is the declaration “You are the Christ, the Son of the living God”.
So? the heretics say, God has many sons. True, in the sense that some may become adopted sons, however there is something absolutely unique about Jesus. He is the only begotten Son. God gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him, may be saved. That is, by His eternal nature, He is The Son of God. He did not come by an act of Creation, He is the Creator. If He is the Creator, He must be God. How else can John 1:3 and Isaiah 40:28, 45:12 be reconciled?
Furthermore, the declaration, the rock, states that He is the Christ. The Saviour and Redeemer of Israel. If so, He must be God. Isaiah declares that God alone is Saviour, Redeemer.
I do not believe however, that this is the forum to launch a proof that Jesus is God, what I am trying to show, is that in order to be saved, it is necessary to know that Jesus is God. Let us look at John Chapter 3.
John 3
1 There was a man of the Pharisees, named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews: 2 The same came to Jesus by night, and said unto him, Rabbi, we know that thou art a teacher come from God: for no man can do these miracles that thou doest, except God be with him. 3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God. 4 Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born? 5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. 6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. 7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again. 8 The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit. 9 Nicodemus answered and said unto him, How can these things be? 10 Jesus answered and said unto him, Art thou a master of Israel, and knowest not these things? 11 Verily, verily, I say unto thee, We speak that we do know, and testify that we have seen; and ye receive not our witness. 12 If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you of heavenly things? 13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven. 14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up: 15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life. 16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. 17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved. 18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
I have highlighted three verses, but it is important to read them in the context of the text.
In regard to vs 3, how can a man who is born again not know that Jesus is God? Was not this revealed to Peter by the Holy Spirit?
In regard to verse 14, another analogy is given. It is Jesus, identified here as the Son of man (a messianic reference), who is lifted up. It is by gazing upon Him, the actual Christ, that we are saved. Not by gazing upon any false Christ, erroneously identified as a good man, a teacher, a prophet, another second created God, or whatever man likes to think.
In regard to vs 18, here is another declaration that whoever does not believe in the only begotten Son of God, shall not be saved.
Therefore, in my view, anyone who provides non believers with the view that they can have any erroneous view of the identity of Jesus, and may be saved, is misleading them to death. And, I identify a non believer as any person who denies that Jesus is God manifested in the flesh, whether they like to call themselves Christian or not.
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RE: Is Jesus God - 6/22/2007 4:17:43 PM
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figmentPez
Posts: 2063
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: TX
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quote:
ORIGINAL: tony.nz
The idea however that there is one God seen as three persons, the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, is however viewed in Christianity in a somewhat analogical light. The manner in which these interrelationships are established as God, existing outside of our space/time envelope, is not understood at all in any definitive sense. Simply put, our finite mind cannot understand the infinite nature of God, and to give us some level of understanding, God uses a useful analogy. The three fold nature or personality of God, Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, spoken of while retaining the concept of Unity, that there is One God, is therefor not contradictory as some choose to maintain. It is, however, something of a mystery.
I really like a lot of what you said in this post, however, I have to disagree on this point. God's revelation to us that He is Father and Son is not merely a convenient analogy. The Son really is the son of the Father. The human relationship of father and son is a reflection of God's relationship, not the other way around. The way that fathers and sons are supposed to relate is intentional on God's part. That sons inherit all that their father has is because the Son inherits all that His Father has, it is no convenient happenstance, it is the intention of God that human fathers and sons should be like the original Father and Son.
_____________________________
I make this challenge to all Christians:
Read Daniel 7:13-14
And tell me: Who do you say that the Son of Man is?
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RE: Is Jesus God - 6/22/2007 7:08:39 PM
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tony.nz
Posts: 284
Joined: 7/6/2005
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I agree entirely with what you say, and perhaps on this point I did not make what I was trying to say chrystal clear.
As you say, the Son is really the Son of the Father. Scripture describes this as a fact. However, the manner in which this is established in a real context, is not known at all, because it exists outside our space time continuam, beyond our observation and probably beyond our intellect. Mormons, for example, claim that God is a man like us, and God and Jesus are just part of a long hereditary infinite line of Gods. That is a claim that is extra-biblical, obviously an invention of the mind, and contrary to established scriptural facts.
In my case, I became a father through the process of a physical conception, with my wife. There are biological or physical processes here, which we largely understand, and spiritual processes, which we largely do not.
Having established the biblical claim that the Son is really the Son of the Father, the point I made in regard to Mormons and Moslems, is that they take the human comparison too far. And, although there may also be relational parallels between human fathers and sons, we are also unable to fully understand the exact nature of the relational aspects of the Godhead. So, in a sense, our human experience acts as an analogical framework to provide us with the level of understanding that God requires of us.
So, the way I sum up is this, what we know of God is what He tells us. Beyond that, we are absolutely in the dark. Maybe, we will find out more in eternity, however at this point in time there is no point inventing extra-biblical claims, like some do.
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RE: Is Jesus God - 6/22/2007 7:53:40 PM
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tony.nz
Posts: 284
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A further example of what I am getting at lies in the fact that the Father is eternally the Father, and the Son is eternally the Son.
This creates a conceptual difficulty for us, for which I for one, do not have the intellectual capacity to resolve. In all of our experience, the human Father - Son relationship is established in reference to time. The Father preceeds the son (in our experience), so, if the Son is begotten of Him, how do we say that the Son is eternal? What do I understand though of the concept of eternity? Absolutely nothing of significance, therefore, do I rely on my limited intellect, or do I rely on what Abba says? I do not understand, but I have to believe.
A further example if the limitations of taking the human Father-Son comparison too far, as a father, I discipline my children as I see appropriate, sometimes I get grumpy, I try to impart some wisdom into their lives, and I get frustrated by the fact that it goes in one ear and out the other. Try applying that to how you think God the Father and God the Son, interact. Some of it is a reflection of human weaknesses certainly, however how can we consider that sort of interaction between the Father and Son, in any relational context at all?
Or, do we say that I should not correct my children,or educating them, since I should be modelling the relationship on what we know of God, and can not imagine the Father disciplining the Son, or adding to His wisdom?
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RE: Is Jesus God - 6/22/2007 8:19:30 PM
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tony.nz
Posts: 284
Joined: 7/6/2005
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I have thought of another comparison. Say, I had a little son, and I took him down to a local small lake, where some people were operating remote control boats. He says "look Daddy, boat!" I say "yes, that's a boat". He would understand something of what a boat looks like, and that it floats on the water, and goes from place to place. Yet, even at that age I feel, and even if he had never seen a real ship on the sea, he would understand that it is a representation of something that is much larger.
In regard to a real ship, its size, it's construction, it's technology, and capabilities, he would have no idea. And that, pretty much, is an analogy of where we are with God. Perhaps, on reflection, it is our human father-son relationship which is the analogy, and not the real thing.
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RE: Is Jesus God - 6/24/2007 6:51:24 AM
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Breanna_
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They are one in spirit, It is the Farther the Son and the Holy Spirit, when we pray we p | | |
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