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RE: South Carolina Debate - 1/17/2008 10:09:59 PM
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Leon_Figg3
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Thomas2008,
I am not exactly sure who your comments are directed against as I was not addressing any specific situation either in the past or the present.
If your comments are directed towards me, you may very well be missing the point of what I had just written.
Read a little history-unbiased history.
Maybe you should read a little something about business.
Our country, all countries, enter into trade, and even arms deals with other countries in the hopes of having some influence in those other countries. Each side enters this business arrangement with aspirations and even agendas which may, or may not be known to the other side.
If one side out smarts the other side, the failure of the business arrangement to turn out as desired by the loosing side is not the fault of that side. It does not even mean that it was un-wise of the loosing side to have entered in the business arrangement in the first place. It does indicate that the loosing side should have had a better understnding and knowledge of who they were dealinig with, and what their motivations may have been.
Again, I would advice you to read a little history.
Our founding fathers did not have a set, or an aggreed upon idea on how our country was to interact with other countries. Georege Washington was against foreign alliances. He was against parts of the United States making aggreements with other countries with out the knowledge and opinion of other parts of the country. On the other hand Thomas Jefferson, the author of the Constitution, supported an alliance with the French.
It has become almost predictable that almost very time I engage in discussion about what the Constitution says and does not say about our country's foreign policy practices, they produce the same, or almost the same quotes by George Washington and others. In preperation for this posting I reviewed a slightly edited version of George Washington's farewell address. It is quite interesting what George Washington had to say about political parties. To say the least he saw political parties as, or even more, dangerous to the Unitetd States as he seemed to see foreign alliances.
_____________________________
To whom much is given, much is expected. Luke 12:48
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RE: South Carolina Debate - 1/17/2008 10:25:24 PM
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thomas2008
Posts: 263
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From: Potterville, Michigan
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But wouldn't you agree though that if we would just mind our own business and stop interfering in the internal affairs of other nations that we might be liked in the international community.
Looking at our history is important. We need to look at history in a way of not making the same mistakes of past leaders.
_____________________________
Warmest Regards,
Thomas Winters
quote:
"Government is not reason, it is not eloquence -- it is force." - George Washington
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RE: South Carolina Debate - 1/17/2008 11:56:10 PM
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Leon_Figg3
Posts: 476
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thomas,
My view, my point, is that like it or not we can not simply "mind our own business" if we are going to be involved in trade with other countries. Even if we were to restrict out relations with other countries to trade, we will be involved in their internal affairs. We will have an interest in their internal, and external affairs.
Look at the history of the movie industry and what affect that has had on other countries
Look at the affect our movies have had on the internal affairs of other countries prior to World War I and World War II.
Look at the affect Cocoa Cola, cigaretts, MacDonalds, and other companies have had on the internal affairs of other countries.
I do not believe that whether or not we are liked by the international community is as important as our ablity to be seen as a model for people and countries to be all that they can be as well as a helping hand for them to work in that direction.
I belive that is what our founding fathers truely had in mind in the creation of the Constitution and this country.
< Message edited by Leon_Figg3 -- 1/18/2008 12:19:07 AM >
_____________________________
To whom much is given, much is expected. Luke 12:48
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RE: South Carolina Debate - 1/18/2008 12:05:09 AM
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thomas2008
Posts: 263
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From: Potterville, Michigan
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But Ron Paul's position on foreign policy is that we should still trade, talk, travel to other nations, but when it comes to getting involved militarily, then we should mind our own business.
_____________________________
Warmest Regards,
Thomas Winters
quote:
"Government is not reason, it is not eloquence -- it is force." - George Washington
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RE: South Carolina Debate - 1/18/2008 12:06:56 AM
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thomas2008
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From: Potterville, Michigan
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We should lift the embargo on Cuba, seeing as how they are no longer a threat to us.
_____________________________
Warmest Regards,
Thomas Winters
quote:
"Government is not reason, it is not eloquence -- it is force." - George Washington
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RE: South Carolina Debate - 1/18/2008 1:01:19 AM
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Leon_Figg3
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quote:
ORIGINAL: thomas2008
But Ron Paul's position on foreign policy is that we should still trade, talk, travel to other nations, but when it comes to getting involved militarily, then we should mind our own business.
Question: If we are not willing to aid other countries militarily, especially those countries we have close ties to, or a long history with, how are they to fully trust us in those other areas that you mentioned?
Question: If we are not willing to stand by our trading partners when the going gets tough for them, aren't we creating just the same amount of problems that we are involved in by the way we are doing tings now?
I acknowledge that our founding fathers, having come largely from Europe, were well aware of the dangers of ever changing alliances and the problems they caused. They were well aware that relationships between, or among a number of countries, on any level were largely uncontrolable and more than likely to be more costly that origionally believed. However, IMO, they also knew that such relationship were unavoidable. In that respect they believed that such relationships should not be entered into without much consideration. In the end though, we are still not totally responsible if those relationships do not turn out as we had hoped.
We should not shy away from entering other relationships and attempt to do the right thing just because past relationships failed to turn out as we would have prefered.
< Message edited by Leon_Figg3 -- 1/18/2008 1:11:03 AM >
_____________________________
To whom much is given, much is expected. Luke 12:48
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RE: South Carolina Debate - 1/18/2008 10:58:21 AM
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thomas2008
Posts: 263
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From: Potterville, Michigan
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So you believe that its good policy to oh, worry about everyone else's problems, but ignore our own? We send billions and billions of foreign aid to to other nations, driving up our national debt. What is so wrong with keeping the money here at home and fixing our problems before we start fixing others? Isn't that what the Bible says? Remove the speck in our own eye first? Pretty much that verse is saying, mind your own business.
We deal with Saudi Arabia that obviously isn't doing anything about the high oil prices, which is hurting the American economy. People are losing jobs, the prices of goods and services have increased due to gas prices. Our economy is falling apart and no one seems to be doing anything about it. But let's solve everyone else problems.
_____________________________
Warmest Regards,
Thomas Winters
quote:
"Government is not reason, it is not eloquence -- it is force." - George Washington
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RE: South Carolina Debate - 1/18/2008 11:19:34 AM
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stamper_ben
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I contend that we are not ignoring our own problems as much as we are plain unable to deal with them because of the polarity between the different sides of the aisle in Washington. Money alone is not going to fix what is broke in this country.
_____________________________
We will be known as His by the love we show one another.
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RE: South Carolina Debate - 1/18/2008 12:35:11 PM
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Leon_Figg3
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thomas,
Once again I am not sure to whom you are addressing your comments.
I am not saying, nor do I hear very many other people saying that our foreign affairs, or our relations with other countries should have, or ever really have ever taken a higher priority over our own internal issues. The fact is America is in a fortunate/ misfortunate position to be able to deal with both at the same time. How well we deal, and have dealt wth both is a different matter. Also, it has been recognized that our internal affairs are quite often tied to our dealings with other countries. We can not simply say to countries that we will trade with you in some areas and not others because we feel that you may someday, in the future, choose to use those things against us.
Yes, we have said such things to some countries but I believe we have been upfront about it by first expressing our reservations in dealing with them in certain areas because of certain aspects/ conditions in thier countries that make us uncomfortable about dealings in those areas.
Yes, we should remove the log from our eye, before we remove the speck from their eye, but that verse, IMO does not mean we are not to have dealings with them in any way. In fact, it may be through some dealings with them that we may be better able to remove the log from our eye. Also, I believe that verse mainly pertains to the way individuals behave toward one another more than it pertains to the way countries are to interact. There are two entirely different dynamics involved.
As for Saudi Arabia not doing anything about the price of oil, they have historically done more for us and Europe in trying to keep the price of oil down than any of the other OPEC countries. It is neither their fault, not the fault of our dealings with them that people in the West lack the education, imagination, initiative, and means to really do something about their internal issues.
< Message edited by Leon_Figg3 -- 1/18/2008 12:45:15 PM >
_____________________________
To whom much is given, much is expected. Luke 12:48
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RE: South Carolina Debate - 1/18/2008 1:08:31 PM
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thomas2008
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From: Potterville, Michigan
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When Bush ran in 2000 he made it clear that there wouldn't be any nation building, and we would have a humble foreign policy. What are we doing in Iraq?
We invaded a nation that never attacked us, a nation that didn't really pose any threat on the security of the United States. We've spent so much time and money in Iraq that we have allowed the original mastermind, Bin Laden to escape through the cracks.
Now, not only are we in Afghanistan and Iraq, it is pretty evident we will be involved with Iran, another nation that poses no threat to the Untied States. We need to let nations fight their own battles, solve their own problems.
Yes, conditions are not possibly as bad right now as they seem, but if we don't look at the problems now, we will have problems later on. President Bush is acting like a king, acting as if the Constitution doesn't apply to him.
He declares wars, brought forth the creation of the Patriot Act which is unconstitutional, illegal wiretapping of our phones. We now have eminent domain powers given to private business that can now cease property. You say our liberties aren't in danger? Privacy, private property rights...
I really do with that I could look at America today and say that things are okie dokie, but it's not.
Watch the movie or read the book "1984"...
_____________________________
Warmest Regards,
Thomas Winters
quote:
"Government is not reason, it is not eloquence -- it is force." - George Washington
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RE: South Carolina Debate - 1/18/2008 1:11:24 PM
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thomas2008
Posts: 263
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From: Potterville, Michigan
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But everything that is posted here is just based on opinions. I'm entitled to mine, and your entitled to yours.
_____________________________
Warmest Regards,
Thomas Winters
quote:
"Government is not reason, it is not eloquence -- it is force." - George Washington
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RE: South Carolina Debate - 1/20/2008 10:30:21 PM
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thomas2008
Posts: 263
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From: Potterville, Michigan
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quote:
ORIGINAL: ccoppenbarger
Second in Nevada!  If only the Mormons had stayed out of this. All of the Osmonds must have voted.
5th in SC.  At least I know I'm one of the 4%, though.
That is true. In Michigan where I live, I'm sad that Ron's message didn't get through, but I'm happy because I voted for what I feel is in the best interest of the United States. When it comes time to vote in November, my vote is going for a third party candidate. I will not vote for either of the other candidates, because if I did I would be endorsing the stuff they stand for, and I just can't do that to America.
Hey, just think....theres 4% of you in South Carolina that have a real grasp on what is happening in this country! The other percent haven't arrived yet. The same goes for Michigan....
_____________________________
Warmest Regards,
Thomas Winters
quote:
"Government is not reason, it is not eloquence -- it is force." - George Washington
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RE: South Carolina Debate - 1/20/2008 10:34:44 PM
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thomas2008
Posts: 263
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From: Potterville, Michigan
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Also, the other percent can't really give one reason why they support that person...with Ron Paul supporters, we know where he stands. Look at Romney, he won in Michigan because he is a Michigan native, and his father was governor. People vote for Hillary because she's a woman. People vote for Obama because he's black. People vote for Huckabee because he is a "Christian". People vote for McCain, still undecided on that one. People vote for Guiliani because people think he was such a big hero after 9-11.
Sad.
It's not what they can do, it's who they are.
_____________________________
Warmest Regards,
Thomas Winters
quote:
"Government is not reason, it is not eloquence -- it is force." - George Washington
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RE: South Carolina Debate - 1/21/2008 4:34:36 PM
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TheosCentric
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I looked at the exit polls for SC. McCain and Huckabee were split 40%/40% on the evangelicals. But the majority of the people who voted for McCain were pro-abortion. Those for Huckabee were pro-life. Strange.
Also, Fox News excluded Paul from the results of Nevada. He was second, but they showed Romney, Huckabee and McCain's numbers. None of Paul's, even though he came in second.
Fair and balanced, right?
_____________________________
"Missions exists because worship doesn't." -- John Piper, Let the Nations be Glad
God at the Center
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RE: South Carolina Debate - 1/21/2008 5:16:04 PM
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thomas2008
Posts: 263
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Yea, I don't trust any politician other than Ron Paul who claim to be pro-life. I look at what a candidate has done in their career regarding the abortion issue. I don't rely on people that hop on a certain wagon just to get votes. Ron Paul has a decent record when it comes to the abortion issue.
_____________________________
Warmest Regards,
Thomas Winters
quote:
"Government is not reason, it is not eloquence -- it is force." - George Washington
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RE: South Carolina Debate - 1/21/2008 9:57:54 PM
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jflack
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Just as the establishment were petrified of Martin Luther King's influence when he began to speak out against Vietnam they are petrified of Ron Paul and his message of freedom and liberty. The Ron Paul revolution continues on as the campaign has brought in almost $2 Million from grassroots supporters today! Let's keep it going!
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Jeff Wise
AmericaWideOpen
North American Union Ebook
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RE: South Carolina Debate - 1/22/2008 9:14:46 AM
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jflack
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Ron Paul will get a boost at an event in Washington TODAY when the "Roe" in the Roe v. Wade 1973 court case, Norma McCorvey, endorses his bid for the presidency.
McCorvey has famously changed her mind about abortion and now the woman whose court case created current abortion law crusades against the practice. Paul is McCorvey's current choice for President.
http://blogs.abcnews.com/politicalradar/2008/01/roe-v-wade-advo.html
_____________________________
Jeff Wise
AmericaWideOpen
North American Union Ebook
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RE: South Carolina Debate - 1/24/2008 4:29:38 PM
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stamper_ben
Posts: 10962
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This is like John Kerry voting for the war before voting against it. 
"I just put them in the bills before I vote against the bills" quote:
"I've never voted for an earmark in my life," the Texas representative said under questioning on NBC's "Meet the Press" about reports that he has requested hundreds of millions of dollars for special projects in his home district.
"I put them in because I represent people who are asking for some of their money back," said Paul, who likened it to taking a tax credit. "I'm against the tax system, but I take all my tax credits. I want to get their money back for the people."
The 10-term congressman and candidate for the Republican presidential nomination added that although he has requested special projects known as earmarks, he ultimately ends up voting against them in the House. "All the time knowing the bill will get passed without my vote."
Doctor "No" indeed...
_____________________________
We will be known as His by the love we show one another.
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RE: South Carolina Debate - 1/25/2008 10:48:23 AM
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stamper_ben
Posts: 10962
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From: Lone Star State
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You all know my thoughts on Ron Paul, mainly on his attitude and reaction toward racism in his supporters, and also on foreign policy. But I feel that I have posted both the good and bad of the man.
I just saw this video on the linked page and found it rather scary for me. Scary and enlightening.
_____________________________
We will be known as His by the love we show one another.
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RE: South Carolina Debate - 1/25/2008 11:52:21 AM
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TheosCentric
Posts: 1938
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It would seem then, that Paul is the true Reagan conservative. Not McCain, not Thompson, not Romney, etc.
Hmm...
_____________________________
"Missions exists because worship doesn't." -- John Piper, Let the Nations be Glad
God at the Center
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RE: South Carolina Debate - 1/26/2008 12:04:04 AM
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estrader
Posts: 23
Joined: 1/25/2008
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quote:
ORIGINAL: thomas2008
Now, not only are we in Afghanistan and Iraq, it is pretty evident we will be involved with Iran, another nation that poses no threat to the Untied States. We need to let nations fight their own battles, solve their own problems.
...
He declares wars, brought forth the creation of the Patriot Act which is unconstitutional, illegal wiretapping of our phones. We now have eminent domain powers given to private business that can now cease property. You say our liberties aren't in danger? Privacy, private property rights...
...
Yes I agree with you Thomas, we as a country have come along ways to now starting wars. We are the aggressor.
Ron Paul is a solid, principled individual. He has my vote.
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RE: South Carolina Debate - 1/27/2008 10:20:34 PM
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RichLP
Posts: 1580
Joined: 5/4/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: estrader
quote:
ORIGINAL: thomas2008
Now, not only are we in Afghanistan and Iraq, it is pretty evident we will be involved with Iran, another nation that poses no threat to the Untied States. We need to let nations fight their own battles, solve their own problems.
...
He declares wars, brought forth the creation of the Patriot Act which is unconstitutional, illegal wiretapping of our phones. We now have eminent domain powers given to private business that can now cease property. You say our liberties aren't in danger? Privacy, private property rights...
...
Yes I agree with you Thomas, we as a country have come along ways to now starting wars. We are the aggressor.
Ron Paul is a solid, principled individual. He has my vote.
 !!!!!!!!!!!!!
_____________________________
"We have removed an ally of Al Qaeda" - G.W. Bush lies to America and to the world, 5/1/2003
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Christian Homeschool Mom for Ron Paul, not Huckabee *Vi... - 1/28/2008 4:55:08 PM
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thomas2008
Posts: 263
Joined: 9/10/2007
From: Potterville, Michigan
Status: offline
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<center>VIDEO LINK
I encourage you to watch this video....then comment on it. :)
_____________________________
Warmest Regards,
Thomas Winters
quote:
"Government is not reason, it is not eloquence -- it is force." - George Washington
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RE: Christian Homeschool Mom for Ron Paul, not Huckabee... - 1/29/2008 9:52:49 PM
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iwillfearnoevil
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From: upstate NY
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congrats on breaking 3% tonite!
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