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RE: Persecution in America? - 5/30/2007 8:13:56 AM
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EverLearning
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Leon_Figg3
If the incidents sighted are examples of persecution, then what would you call what Christians go through in other counttries where they have to meet in secret, where they are jailed and tortured until they either die or renounce their faith?
Someday Christians may very well be persecuted in our country, but we are miles away from that at the present time. These are inconveniences designed to test us.
We americans sure do like to complain when the cover of our cushy little pillow gets wrinkled and ignore those in other parts of the world are beaten, ridiculed, jailed, or killed for their faith. The fact that someone won't let me pray at work or at school is not persecution in my book, I can still worship as i see fit and go to church openly without fear of anyone acting out against me. We Americans want our faith to be easy, we want to be accepted everywhere. I guess we want to be better than our Lord and Saviour who was beaten, spat upon, and crucified. We want to ignore the fact that he told us we would be hated just as he was hated. We want to cry because we can't pray out loud in our cubicles at work or at our graduations, never mind the fact that noone seeks to crucify us and ask us to denounce our religion. Never mind that we are free to practice our religion, outside of work and school, however we see fit as long as it doesn't injure others. Never mind that we live cushy feel good lives and most of us would faint cold just to see what Christians in other parts of the world are subjected to.
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RE: Persecution in America? - 5/30/2007 8:21:58 AM
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TheosCentric
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Persecution is coming. Just wait. Jesus said so.
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God at the Center - Latest post - John 3:16 conference?
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RE: Persecution in America? - 5/30/2007 8:37:02 AM
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SonInMe1
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I think some christians are looking for persecution under every rock because they believe when we are persecuted, it will be another sign that Jesus is coming back. The more persecution, the closer Jesus is to coming back.
I think many american christians would lose their "faith" if they faced true persecution....
and ya know? Some of us are made terribly uncomfortable when we are bold in our faith...but that is not persecution.
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You adulterous people, don't you know that friendship with the world is hatred toward God? Anyone who chooses to be a friend of the world becomes an enemy of God.
James 4:4
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RE: Persecution in America? - 5/30/2007 8:38:54 AM
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CleverName
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quote:
If the incidents sighted are examples of persecution, then what would you call what Christians go through in other counttries where they have to meet in secret, where they are jailed and tortured until they either die or renounce their faith?
Why, I would call it persecution.
From freedictionary.com - Persecute:
1. To oppress or harass with ill-treatment, especially because of race, religion, gender, sexual orientation, or beliefs.
2. To annoy persistently; bother.
quote:
The fact that someone won't let me pray at work or at school is not persecution in my book
quote:
These cases do not rise to the level of "persecution" in my book.
Grab a dictionary, folks. You're wrong.
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RE: Persecution in America? - 5/30/2007 8:52:09 AM
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EverLearning
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quote:
ORIGINAL: CleverName
quote:
If the incidents sighted are examples of persecution, then what would you call what Christians go through in other counttries where they have to meet in secret, where they are jailed and tortured until they either die or renounce their faith?
Why, I would call it persecution.
From freedictionary.com - Persecute:
1. To oppress or harass with ill-treatment, especially because of race, religion, gender, sexual orientation, or beliefs.
2. To annoy persistently; bother.
quote:
The fact that someone won't let me pray at work or at school is not persecution in my book
quote:
These cases do not rise to the level of "persecution" in my book.
Grab a dictionary, folks. You're wrong.
by the dictionary definition yes i could see where you would call it persecution but common sense dictates that us being inconvenienced is not persecution, especially when compared to what the head of the Church, Jesus Christ, went through and what Christians the world over must go through everyday in defense of their faith. IMO calling what we Americans go through persecution does a great injustice to the suffering of our Lord and the suffering of all those who have been tortured, beaten, maimed, and killed for being Christian.
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RE: Persecution in America? - 5/30/2007 9:00:16 AM
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CleverName
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So, when I am robbed of fifty dollars, I guess I shouldn't call it "robbery," because others have been robbed of millions of dollars. Do these "light afflictions" compare to the much worse cases in other parts of the world? Not very much, but both can be forms of persecution.
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RE: Persecution in America? - 5/30/2007 9:05:19 AM
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EverLearning
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quote:
ORIGINAL: CleverName
So, when I am robbed of fifty dollars, I guess I shouldn't call it "robbery," because others have been robbed of millions of dollars. Do these "light afflictions" compare to the much worse cases in other parts of the world? Not very much, but both can be forms of persecution.
The HUGE difference is that outside of government funded institutions and some work places you are FREE to worship as you please with very little fear that anyone will come and kill you for it. Having to pray siliently at work or at a school event is not persecution. No one is hounding you to denounce your religion, noone is calling for your execution for your beliefs, noone is coming into churches and dragging members into the streets. We Americans have become whiners of the Nth degree and it makes me sick.
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RE: Persecution in America? - 5/30/2007 9:25:33 AM
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WormHeart
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quote:
ORIGINAL: cow257
So where are the instances of Christians being tortured, beaten, imprisoned or killed. What some Christians have become are whiners and complainers.
Respectfully disagree.
You dont have to be beaten, imprisoned, tortured or killed to face actual percecution. If your car is vandalised with slurs, threats dropped in your mailbox or other kinds of "non-physical" persecution, it is nevertheless persecution.
I would also use another word for 99% of the stuff I hear about. Harrashed behaps.
If everytime you come to work, someone has place a flyer on your desk denouncing your faith, that is also harrashment.
But I do agree that the vast majority of socalled persecution is something enterily else.
Just my perspective.
WormHeart
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RE: Persecution in America? - 5/30/2007 9:55:44 AM
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cow451
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quote:
ORIGINAL: WormHeart
quote:
ORIGINAL: cow257
So where are the instances of Christians being tortured, beaten, imprisoned or killed. What some Christians have become are whiners and complainers.
Respectfully disagree.
You dont have to be beaten, imprisoned, tortured or killed to face actual percecution. If your car is vandalised with slurs, threats dropped in your mailbox or other kinds of "non-physical" persecution, it is nevertheless persecution.
I would also use another word for 99% of the stuff I hear about. Harrashed behaps.
If everytime you come to work, someone has place a flyer on your desk denouncing your faith, that is also harrashment.
But I do agree that the vast majority of socalled persecution is something enterily else.
Just my perspective.
WormHeart
Do you have any first hand knowledge or credible reports of the vandalism, threats, etc.? If the workplace give-and-take is considered persecution, then Christians are certainly as guilty of that.
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Wenn zuerst Sie nicht gelingen, Versuch, versuch wieder. Geben Sie dann auf. Es gibt keinen punkt, in ein zu sein, verdammt Narren darum. -- W. C. Fields
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RE: Persecution in America? - 5/30/2007 10:31:16 AM
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rcjames
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quote:
ORIGINAL: cow257
quote:
ORIGINAL: rcjames
quote:
ORIGINAL: CleverName
I am looking for a web site, or other source, where I can find factual, documented information on persecution against Christians in the U.S. or in Canada.
Try HERE fpr a start and google "Christina Rights Groups".
Thanks
RC
Great site. It shows the American system at work to protect the rights of Christians to live, work and worship. It also dispells many of the "persecution" myths that abound in the Churches. Case after case has been upheld. Thanks, RC.
yes and it also verifies that persecution does take place, until slapped down by the Constitution.
Thanks
RC
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RE: Persecution in America? - 5/30/2007 12:10:31 PM
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Jhud
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In the Parable of the Sower, Christ indicates that as believers we would face three primary obstacles to growth and fruitfulness - satanic schemes, persecution, and our own desires for wealth and accumulation. These correspond to the three primary oppositions Christians have always faced in the world - Satan, or demonic forces, the world system, and our own flesh.
While I am certain that we face various forms of persecution in the US (I have dealt with them myself on a college campus, from faculty and fellow students) I would have to say in America, in our day and age, the primary difficulty most Christians are going to have is the 'thorns' Christ spoke of, the 'worries of the world' and the ' deceitfulness of riches'.
We are continually inflamed by appeals to fleshly comforts and pleasures, and by and large, we acquiesce.
The fact is Christians in our country have by and large sold out to consumerism and a desire for the 'good life' - we are little persecuted because there is little difference between the lives of most believers and the rest of society in this regard.
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Jack
“I mean to live my life an obedient man, but obedient to God, subservient to the wisdom of my ancestors; never to the authority of political truths arrived at yesterday at the voting booth”
William F. Buckley Jr. 1925-2008
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RE: Persecution in America? - 5/30/2007 12:17:26 PM
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todd_t
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Riddle me this: how can a majority be persecuted?
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RE: Persecution in America? - 5/30/2007 12:19:48 PM
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joeshappywife
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OK...couple of things...
I agree that persecution in the US rarely, if ever, is life threatening. However, to say that those who have had to endure it to whatever degree are whiners is being a bit condesending. To say that because the courts have made redress is to negate the initial acts of harassment, and that is not fair. Having to even go to the courts should not take place. My family, three generations ago, came to this country for various reasons, and I have chosen to stay here for some of the same and some different ones. Freedom to live out my faith without harassment is a main one.
I will share a very personal example for all of you needing one.
My husband is a public high school teacher and has had to use his personal time and his own, and others, resources, to defend his job because he chose to sponsor the on-campus Bible Study. Now, he never led the group, it was completely student led, he simply allowed them to meet in his room, and he was the teacher present at meetings which was required for all on-campus clubs.
I will fully agree that his life was never threatened, but his livlihood was. I will agree also that in the end, his job ended up safe, but it doesn't negate the fact that he had to fight the fight in the first place. It was time and resources that could have been better used.
Again, maybe this was only harassment, but it was still because of his faith and the way he chose to live it out...completely within the rules that had been set out.
Thanks for letting me share our experience. It's only one example, but I feel strongly that it should have never happened in the first place.
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RE: Persecution in America? - 5/30/2007 12:23:21 PM
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Jhud
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quote:
Riddle me this: how can a majority be persecuted?
South Africa? Iraq?
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Jack
“I mean to live my life an obedient man, but obedient to God, subservient to the wisdom of my ancestors; never to the authority of political truths arrived at yesterday at the voting booth”
William F. Buckley Jr. 1925-2008
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RE: Persecution in America? - 5/30/2007 12:33:31 PM
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rcjames
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quote:
ORIGINAL: todd_t
Riddle me this: how can a majority be persecuted?
By the minority with the help of activist Judges.
Thanks
RC
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Just a country Preacher's humble opinion
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RE: Persecution in America? - 5/30/2007 12:53:45 PM
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todd_t
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Jack: I meant in America; I just don't see Christians taking it on the chin in this country. Majorities in South Africa and Iraq were persecuted by military means.
Mr. James: When I last checked, Clarence Thomas led the Supreme Court in voting to overturn more congressionally-approved laws than any other justice. Does that make him an activist judge?
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RE: Persecution in America? - 5/30/2007 1:04:17 PM
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Jhud
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quote:
Jack: I meant in America; I just don't see Christians taking it on the chin in this country. Majorities in South Africa and Iraq were persecuted by military means.
Just establishing that a majority can persecute a minority. Indeed, in South Africa, it was through a system of laws built up over time which had the eventual effect of disenfranchising the black majority. It needn't be military in nature - all it requires is for the prevailing sentiment to be that a certain group shouldn't be allowed access to power, simply because of who they are.
And considering the influence of believing Christians are often excluded from our universities, public schools, entertainment industry, scientific establishment, and legal system, it is conceivable to consider that such exclusion rises to persecution.
_____________________________
Jack
“I mean to live my life an obedient man, but obedient to God, subservient to the wisdom of my ancestors; never to the authority of political truths arrived at yesterday at the voting booth”
William F. Buckley Jr. 1925-2008
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RE: Persecution in America? - 5/30/2007 1:12:30 PM
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todd_t
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quote:
And considering the influence of believing Christians are often excluded from our universities, public schools, entertainment industry, scientific establishment, and legal system, it is conceivable to consider that such exclusion rises to persecution.
Almost anything is conceivable.
I can imagine some outward Christians taking flak for being highly outspoken in their faith at, for example, secular colleges. This, because many people (like myself) don't really wish to hear their testimonies in stereo. But then again, most secular campuses have Christian groups around for people to join or investigate. So it's hardly as if Christians are an endangered species in such places.
As Christianity is the most powerful and widespread faith in America, I simply take reports of persecution with a grain of salt.
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RE: Persecution in America? - 5/30/2007 1:22:08 PM
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Jhud
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quote:
I can imagine some outward Christians taking flak for being highly outspoken in their faith at, for example, secular colleges. This, because many people (like myself) don't really wish to hear their testimonies in stereo. But then again, most secular campuses have Christian groups around for people to join or investigate. So it's hardly as if Christians are an endangered species in such places.
As Christianity is the most powerful and widespread faith in America, I simply take reports of persecution with a grain of salt.
The year I started college, we had a professor (John Patterson) at the university I attended (ISU) who wanted to deny anyone who claimed God created the world a science degree. Their current religion professor is an outspoken atheist (Hector Avolos), and they recently denied a noted astronomer tenure because he associated himself with the ID movement.
And that is one rather tame midwestern college; it is much worse elsewhere.
The fact is, you can be an outspoken homosexual activist or Marxist on the average college campus and hardly anyone bats an eye; say the word 'Jesus' and suddenly one is a pariah.
That would indicate things are heading in the wrong direction.
_____________________________
Jack
“I mean to live my life an obedient man, but obedient to God, subservient to the wisdom of my ancestors; never to the authority of political truths arrived at yesterday at the voting booth”
William F. Buckley Jr. 1925-2008
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RE: Persecution in America? - 5/30/2007 1:25:45 PM
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cow451
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Jhud
quote:
I can imagine some outward Christians taking flak for being highly outspoken in their faith at, for example, secular colleges. This, because many people (like myself) don't really wish to hear their testimonies in stereo. But then again, most secular campuses have Christian groups around for people to join or investigate. So it's hardly as if Christians are an endangered species in such places.
As Christianity is the most powerful and widespread faith in America, I simply take reports of persecution with a grain of salt.
The year I started college, we had a professor (John Patterson) at the university I attended (ISU) who wanted to deny anyone who claimed God created the world a science degree. Their current religion professor is an outspoken atheist (Hector Avolos), and they recently denied a noted astronomer tenure because he associated himself with the ID movement.
The astronomer was not denied tenure on religious grounds. Therefore that example does not fall under persecution of Christians.
_____________________________
Wenn zuerst Sie nicht gelingen, Versuch, versuch wieder. Geben Sie dann auf. Es gibt keinen punkt, in ein zu sein, verdammt Narren darum. -- W. C. Fields
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RE: Persecution in America? - 5/30/2007 1:28:11 PM
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Jhud
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quote:
The astronomer was not denied tenure on religious grounds. Therefore that example does not fall under persecution of Christians.
That depends on whther those denying him tenure considered ID religious or not.
What do you suppose?
_____________________________
Jack
“I mean to live my life an obedient man, but obedient to God, subservient to the wisdom of my ancestors; never to the authority of political truths arrived at yesterday at the voting booth”
William F. Buckley Jr. 1925-2008
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RE: Persecution in America? - 5/30/2007 1:32:10 PM
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joeshappywife
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quote:
But then again, most secular campuses have Christian groups around for people to join or investigate. So it's hardly as if Christians are an endangered species in such places.
Please see my previous post...how much longer will these be available? Many have to fight to remain in existence.
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