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Simply_Blessed -> RE: Professional Wrestling Thread (6/27/2007 9:15:51 AM)

Language? There's a difference between slang and the language you're thinking about.
quote:

ORIGINAL: armydude

quote:

ORIGINAL: Simply_Blessed

Wonder what Jesus would think about two grown over-muscled men beatig the [deleted] out of each other. [8|]
Quite probably the same He'd think about the language you're bringing into this forum. Please tone it down.



laura... -> RE: Professional Wrestling Thread (6/27/2007 9:18:59 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: armydude

quote:

ORIGINAL: buckifn
I do think it is degrading to women and men who do not abuse their wives that a show was aired in honor of this guy considering his history and now his murdering his wife and child.
I'm sorry. I have to object here. I've typed and retyped a response, trying to get it calmed down, but I must speak my mind. I know what the evidence says. I also know that at the time Raw went on the air, he was not a "double murderer" or a "spouse abuser". He was a man that had given 22 years of his life to a profession he loved. That's what they honored. That's all they honored. If anyone can't see the difference, I'm sorry but there is a huge difference here.

ETA: I also need to add that I do understand the need for the WWE to do what they did. It shouldn't be so, but if they had continued to honor Chris Benoit's career, it would have been perceived as supporting his actions out of the ring. I will continue to pray for his family as well as her family. This has got to be a terrible blow to them.


I agree. The WWE and Vince McMahon did not know the circumstances surrounding the deaths when they aired the tribute. All they knew at that point was that the Benoits were dead. The WWE had 3 hours of showtime to fill and, I'm sure, a stable full of wrestlers that were emotionally unable to perform. So, they threw together a tribute show in about 4 hours of lead time. I commend them for their efforts. I also commend them for pulling the tribute show from distribution now that they do know the circumstances.



buckifn -> RE: Professional Wrestling Thread (6/27/2007 9:33:21 AM)

armydude

I get the 22 yrs of doing good in his sport thing- but does that outweigh how we as men treat our wives and should that be held in higher esteem?

I think many of us are pretty sick of seeing those who commit murder, rape, and other crimes hailed as "heroes" of sorts in the sports world and other arenas.

I'm just sick of those people glamorized and the victims families suffering because of horrendous behaviors from these indiv.

I know my opinion is not shared by many, it is clear in the media attention given to those who commit such crimes, but I do think those who are getting sick of it are starting to speak up about it, finally.



laura... -> RE: Professional Wrestling Thread (6/27/2007 9:36:16 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: buckifn

armydude

I get the 22 yrs of doing good in his sport thing- but does that outweigh how we as men treat our wives and should that be held in higher esteem?

I think many of us are pretty sick of seeing those who commit murder, rape, and other crimes hailed as "heroes" of sorts in the sports world and other arenas.

I'm just sick of those people glamorized and the victims families suffering because of horrendous behaviors from these indiv.

I know my opinion is not shared by many, it is clear in the media attention given to those who commit such crimes, but I do think those who are getting sick of it are starting to speak up about it, finally.


Based on McMahon's comments last night, I suspect that the name of Chris Benoit will never again be mentioned on air by the franchise.



JeffSexton -> RE: Professional Wrestling Thread (6/27/2007 9:41:56 AM)

Does the fact that Benoit killed his wife and son change the fact that he was perhaps THE greatest technical wrestler of all time?

NO.

Does it change the fact that his kids were always respectful, and that he was a genuinely nice guy in the locker room that would actively reach out to help younger talent?

NO.

Does it change the fact that according to all those who knew him, his family was the most important thing in his life?

NO.

All his actions over the weekend say is that SOMETHING happened and he snapped. It does NOT negate the previous 40 years of his life, nor, in my mind, does it tarnish it in any way. In fact, to my mind it shows that he still loved his family and wanted to keep his honor intact when he committed suicide after killing them.

We have ALL snapped at one point or another, for one reason or another. That does NOT mean we were some 'monster'.

Is the situation a complete TRAGEDY?

Absolutely.

I still cannot support Vince's decision to completely abandon Benoit's memory. In fact, to my mind, he should be put in the Hall of Fame next Wrestlemania, similarly to how they put Eddie in so fast. Overall, Benoit was a FAR better wrestler than Eddie.



buckifn -> RE: Professional Wrestling Thread (6/27/2007 9:56:07 AM)

Jeff

thinking that suicide "honors" someone is altruistic thinking gone wrong. Suicide brings horrible suffering, pain, and grief to those left behind to deal with such a tragic choice made by a family member or friend.

Maybe the fact he was an abuser, and now a murderer, does not change your opinion of him, but for some of us it does. We don't just want sports figures who do well at the sport they choose to pursue we want men and women of character too.

Is that too much to ask?

This guy's son prob. idolized his Dad as do millions of other kids so what responsibility did he have to those young fans?


The WWF and other agencies, NFL, etc have got to set some standards of accountability. Abusing one's spouse and other crimes should not be acceptable. Think of all the people who have criminal record checks and could not obtain specific jobs if they did specific crimes. Why is the sports world exempt from such standards?



JeffSexton -> RE: Professional Wrestling Thread (6/27/2007 10:05:05 AM)

buck:

The fact remains that until now, we did NOT know of his abuse of his wife. It is quite possible - likely, even - that had this past weekend not went down the way it did, we would have NEVER known about it. That alone speaks to his professionalism, because apparently not even his closest friends - Chavo and possibly Eddie - knew about it.

I was not speaking of his suicide in an altruistic manner. Instead, I was pointing out that he KNEW he was guilty of both his wife's and his son's murder. Rather than making the taxpayers pay for an expensive trial that would have ruined the reputation of himself, his company, and his friends, and quite possibly would have put him on death row anyway - at even greater expense to the taxpayers - he did the proper thing and took care of his own execution. After all, what is the death penalty in the era of "painless executions" if not state-assisted (some could say "ordered") suicide?



Rufas2000 -> RE: Professional Wrestling Thread (6/27/2007 10:45:09 AM)

quote:

I'm sure, a stable full of wrestlers that were emotionally unable to perform.


I think they could have performed if they were called upon as they did the day after Owen Hart's death (which some of them probably witnessed in all its gruesomeness). But I'm sure they were grateful to McMahon that they were not called upon to do so. Another example of the class McMahon has shown during this tragedy.

quote:

The fact remains that until now, we did NOT know of his abuse of his wife. It is quite possible - likely, even - that had this past weekend not went down the way it did, we would have NEVER known about it. That alone speaks to his professionalism, because apparently not even his closest friends - Chavo and possibly Eddie - knew about it.


I'm not clear on how that makes his abuse less morally offensive. I understand your overall point that he did good things and those shouldn't be forgotten but professionalism doesn't negate spousal abuse.

quote:

Maybe the fact he was an abuser, and now a murderer, does not change your opinion of him, but for some of us it does. We don't just want sports figures who do well at the sport they choose to pursue we want men and women of character too.


I agree, I was also disappointed when Steve Austin was allowed to comeback after all the abuse of his wife. As far as I know he never even went for psychological treatment or did anything significant to pay "pennance" and/or to make it less likely that he would do it again. I believe in second chances but there has to be something more to it than "we'll ignore his crimes because he'll make us money". I like what the NFL is doing in trying to clean up its image but they need to remember the term "due process".

I will say I wouldn't be uncomfortable watching a Benoit match. But since I don't watch wrestling or ever watched wrestling on DVD (although the WWE does a great job with their DVD retrospectives from what I've heard) so thats not likely to happen.

quote:

I still cannot support Vince's decision to completely abandon Benoit's memory.


That hasn't happened yet no matter what McMahon says or does right now. He's playing it day by day. I have no problem with him being in the hall with the asterick that he is being honored for his contribution to wrestling and not for his personal life. But I also don't care if he never makes it either due to this.

quote:

Overall, Benoit was a FAR better wrestler than Eddie.


Well as far as performing in a ring I agree although "far better" might be pushing it. Eddie was pretty good to. But in the ring is only half the package (and maybe less in WWE, I wish it weren't so but it is). Eddie was more entertaining in interviews, skits and as a character. Hulk Hogan wasn't particularly good in the ring but his entertainment value allowed wrestling's popularity to skyrocket.



armydude -> RE: Professional Wrestling Thread (6/27/2007 11:39:03 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: laura...
Based on McMahon's comments last night, I suspect that the name of Chris Benoit will never again be mentioned on air by the franchise.
This is a sad thing. I won't take away from the fact that what was done is a terrible thing. I also won't try to gloss it over. However, to quote from Julius Caesar, "The evil that men do lives after them;
The good is oft interred with their bones:" Chris Benoit was (apparently) an abuser of his wife, and her murderer as well as his son. But he was also a professional that gave so much of himself to entertain the fans. Should that be forgotten? I say no.
I am deeply saddened that Chris Benoit will not be remembered as the best technical wrestler in years, but a murderer. I am deeply saddened that due to political correctness the WWE has decided not to honor the career of a great wrestler.



Rufas2000 -> RE: Professional Wrestling Thread (6/27/2007 11:57:51 AM)

quote:

The good is oft interred with their bones:" Chris Benoit was (apparently) an abuser of his wife, and her murderer as well as his son. But he was also a professional that gave so much of himself to entertain the fans. Should that be forgotten? I say no.
I am deeply saddened that Chris Benoit will not be remembered as the best technical wrestler in years, but a murderer. I am deeply saddened that due to political correctness the WWE has decided not to honor the career of a great wrestler.


I still think we're jumping the gun on this "Benoit won't be honored" stuff. Its very possible that in six months his name will be back on the DVDs he was in and that he will take his place in the Hall of Fame at the next Wrestlemania. I hope he is remembered for his full life but I can't get too emotional about that when the person in question murdered his wife and 7 year old son. So for my part I'm just kinda neutral.

It is more distressing to me (beside the deaths of course) that the WWE is getting ripped by people who know not of what they speak for something that is not their fault and for a situation where they have been as responsible as humanly possible. Most commentators don't realize that the WWE has a wellness policy or dismiss it as ineffective with no evidence.

Nobody is mentioning how the WWE changed its storylines and suspended its WWE and ECW champion (Rob Van Damn) after violating the wellness policy. That was a huge blow as Van Damn was to be the focus of the then new ECW. The WWE released Eddie Guererro in order for him to get treatment (which they paid for) and they released Kurt Angle for health reasons knowing full well that he might join TNA (which he did).

The WWE has done things that were irresponsible (especially storyline wise) but they have also done responsible stuff many organizations wouldn't do.



Fwanger -> RE: Professional Wrestling Thread (6/27/2007 12:02:38 PM)

Well, until all the facts are in everything we say about 'roid rage and motive is just speculating out of our noses. Toxicology reports will tell the tale of the tape in a few weeks. But really, does it matter the reason? There will be no trial (here on earth I suppose), no justice perpetrated for these crimes. The blame game will go into full swing, and I bet professional wrestling takes the heat for this and its wrong.

Do I think that WWE was wrong in their actions with the tribue? No. Not at that time. I wholeheartedly agree with everything that armydude and laura said. Do I think that WWE acted quickly and responsibly after the true nature of their deaths came out? Absolutely.

quote:

We don't just want sports figures who do well at the sport they choose to pursue we want men and women of character too.


Buckfin, I understand your anger, because all of us feel it. But we don't know the true heart and nature of any man. Certainly we all want sports figures of character and valor, but that is seriously lacking in this generation when people get paid for bad behavior, or if they really act up, they get fined or maybe a suspension. No one here will ever condone what Benoit did, there's no way to do it. His fans are shocked, their hurt and confused by this, just as the rest of the world is. It's difficult to go from adoring someone to abhoring them in a split second.



buckifn -> RE: Professional Wrestling Thread (6/27/2007 12:13:32 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: JeffSexton

buck:

The fact remains that until now, we did NOT know of his abuse of his wife. It is quite possible - likely, even - that had this past weekend not went down the way it did, we would have NEVER known about it. That alone speaks to his professionalism, because apparently not even his closest friends - Chavo and possibly Eddie - knew about it.

I was not speaking of his suicide in an altruistic manner. Instead, I was pointing out that he KNEW he was guilty of both his wife's and his son's murder. Rather than making the taxpayers pay for an expensive trial that would have ruined the reputation of himself, his company, and his friends, and quite possibly would have put him on death row anyway - at even greater expense to the taxpayers - he did the proper thing and took care of his own execution. After all, what is the death penalty in the era of "painless executions" if not state-assisted (some could say "ordered") suicide?


Jeff-
most of us didn't know of his history of abuse...but part of what I am saying is should the WWF know these things, and should action be taken when they find out? Not just the WWF, but all sports agencies.

I'm not saying forget his name, forget anything he ever did, but I am saying hold people accountable for things like domestic violence long before it comes to a horrible end like this case has, and stop glamorizing people as heroes who do such things.

I wouldn't say because someone's employer doesn't know they have abused their spouse is an indicator of "their professionalism" as you put it. It indicates a person who needs help to me.



JeffSexton -> RE: Professional Wrestling Thread (6/27/2007 12:21:13 PM)

As a teacher, "professionalism" meant that you left yourself in the car and adopted very much of a character-based life in the classroom. Something I never was any good at.

Clearly, Chris Benoit was the CONSUMATE "professional", according to the standard I was held to in teaching.

I'm not saying the guy is more important to WWE than SCSA, but WWE found out about SCSA's spousal abuse issues. They did NOT find out about Benoit's.

Are you now saying that an employer should invade an employee's privacy to check on the state of their marraige????



Rufas2000 -> RE: Professional Wrestling Thread (6/27/2007 12:35:04 PM)

quote:

Are you now saying that an employer should invade an employee's privacy to check on the state of their marraige????


I vote no. But I think Austin quit so the WWE never had the chance to act on Austin's domestic abuse issues so we'll never know what they would have done. Austin's lack of professionalism is well documented from other incidents (mostly involving refusing to lose even if it would advance the storyline or even refusing to feud with certain wrestlers). I still think they rehired him too fast. It should have been longer or Austin should have done something to show that he had changed both personally (spousal abuse, controlling his drinking) and professionally (walking out when not getting his way).

Off topic: ever notice how many threads in the "fun" section of this board are not very "fun". Of course we all want to discuss this and this is the place (perhaps it could have been in a separate thread but its not) but I'm also referring to the music thread with its endless debates about rock music, secular music, CCM and certain artists.



laura... -> RE: Professional Wrestling Thread (6/27/2007 12:38:20 PM)

I hope that one result of this tragedy will be that WWE, ECW, TNA will stop having story lines that border on domestic violence and mixed matches. I never watched wrestling until I married my hubby almost 2 years ago. At first, all wrestling really bothered me. I've gotten fairly used to most of it now since my hubby watches it so much. But, the violence against women makes me leave the room.



Rufas2000 -> RE: Professional Wrestling Thread (6/27/2007 12:43:00 PM)

quote:

I hope that one result of this tragedy will be that WWE, ECW, TNA will stop having story lines that border on domestic violence and mixed matches. I never watched wrestling until I married my hubby almost 2 years ago. At first, all wrestling really bothered me. I've gotten fairly used to most of it now since my hubby watches it so much. But, the violence against women makes me leave the room.


I'm not a fan either. Not to pile on Austin but they had him in storylines where he hit women (who "provoked" it in the wrestling universe sense) after his domestic abuse issues. Of course that is more the WWE's fault than Austin's. The WWE used to take pride in its lack of male on female violence until they started doing it.



laura... -> RE: Professional Wrestling Thread (6/27/2007 12:55:58 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: armydude

quote:

ORIGINAL: laura...
Based on McMahon's comments last night, I suspect that the name of Chris Benoit will never again be mentioned on air by the franchise.
This is a sad thing. I won't take away from the fact that what was done is a terrible thing. I also won't try to gloss it over. However, to quote from Julius Caesar, "The evil that men do lives after them;
The good is oft interred with their bones:" Chris Benoit was (apparently) an abuser of his wife, and her murderer as well as his son. But he was also a professional that gave so much of himself to entertain the fans. Should that be forgotten? I say no.
I am deeply saddened that Chris Benoit will not be remembered as the best technical wrestler in years, but a murderer. I am deeply saddened that due to political correctness the WWE has decided not to honor the career of a great wrestler.

1 Corinthians 9:24Do you not know that in a race all the runners run, but only one gets the prize? Run in such a way as to get the prize.
25Everyone who competes in the games goes into strict training. They do it to get a crown that will not last; but we do it to get a crown that will last forever. 26Therefore I do not run like a man running aimlessly; I do not fight like a man beating the air. 27No, I beat my body and make it my slave so that after I have preached to others, I myself will not be disqualified for the prize.

We must finish the race as well as, if not better than, we began if we expect to be remembered with honor.



armydude -> RE: Professional Wrestling Thread (6/27/2007 1:44:36 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: laura...

I hope that one result of this tragedy will be that WWE, ECW, TNA will stop having story lines that border on domestic violence and mixed matches. I never watched wrestling until I married my hubby almost 2 years ago. At first, all wrestling really bothered me. I've gotten fairly used to most of it now since my hubby watches it so much. But, the violence against women makes me leave the room.
It is because of the matches involving women that I lost interest. Well partially. I know that a woman can be trained to defend herself just as well as a man, having seen (and felt) the effects many times of that training. But two things bother me. First, it bothers me to see women with real talent being let go to allow the hiring of women just to be sex objects. That makes me [:'(]. Then to see a match that places a woman against a man that is twice her size is the second. This (IMO) glorifies the idea of a man beating a woman. I haven't seen a WWE show in a long time, and only periodically look at the website.
Also concerning your last post laura. Thank you for the reminder. Not what I wanted to read, but it's very true. We must be professional in all parts of our life; both public and private.



JeffSexton -> RE: Professional Wrestling Thread (6/27/2007 2:04:36 PM)

quote:

We must be professional in all parts of our life; both public and private.


Ya know, army, I considered going in to the military for a LONG time, and even now toy with the idea. It has always been a pull for me, and probably always will be - even LONG after I'm too old.

I finally realized about a year or two ago that due to several factors, I can never do it.

One of the biggest factors is also one of the biggest reasons I cannot be a teacher in the current US educational system.

I can't act well.

In other words, while I am able to hide SOME emotion and due to certain factors some emotion is hidden even when I want to reveal it, with me by and large what you see is what you get. I'm going to be the same guy singing in the choir as I am in the classroom as I am on the battlefield as I am in bed with my wife as I am at the local bar. Certain aspects of who I am can be emphasized more or less depending on where I am - I try to be gentler with my wife than I would with the guy I'm about to put a 5.56 mm round in, for example -, but even then, she knows and has seen some of my warrior nature, both civil and "not so civil".

Casting Crowns has a song called Stained Glass Masquerade, and it applies perfectly to my objections to your statement. The problem in our churches today is that we have TOO MANY "professionals" and NOT ENOUGH "people". Give me heart, give me passion, give me FEELINGS in my church. I CAN'T STAND people that TALK about their faith. I want people that LIVE it. I would FAR rather them LIVE it than TALK about it. Personally, people know where I stand. They know what I believe and if they ask me, I'll tell them why. But I have a Christmas magnet on my gas cap a) to help me readily identify my car, b) to remind MYSELF about what my pastor said about it, and c) in the hopes that maybe someone will see it and read it or ask me about why I still have it there in June. I INTENIONALLY don't have the fish bumper sticker, the "Christian" shirts, or any of the other "christian" THINGS that so many seem to think is necessary.

Sorry for going off on you. I really am. You just hit a nerve that is EXTREMELY sensitive with me, but PLEASE don't take it as an overly personal assault.



brooklynsblessed1 -> RE: Professional Wrestling Thread (6/27/2007 3:40:40 PM)

Pro Wrestling Wife Claims Drug Abuse, Domestic Violence 'Out of Hand in the WWE'
Wednesday, June 27, 2007

The former wife of pro wrestling superstar "Stone Cold" Steve Austin broke what had been a court-imposed silence and charged that "domestic and drug abuse is out of hand in the WWE and something needs to be done about it."

Debra Williams' stunning charge, reported Wednesday by MyFoxColorado.com, comes in the wake of the grisly discovery of the bodies of Chris Benoit and his wife, Nancy-Daus Benoit, and 7-year-old son, Daniel.

Police in Fayetteville, Ga., say Benoit strangled his wife Friday, then suffocated his son on Saturday before hanging himself on Sunday. Their bodies were discovered Monday morning after Benoit canceled pay-per-view and personal appearances that weekend in Texas.

FOX NEWS: A Myriad Of Links Here....



buckifn -> RE: Professional Wrestling Thread (6/27/2007 4:26:46 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: JeffSexton

As a teacher, "professionalism" meant that you left yourself in the car and adopted very much of a character-based life in the classroom. Something I never was any good at.

Clearly, Chris Benoit was the CONSUMATE "professional", according to the standard I was held to in teaching.

I'm not saying the guy is more important to WWE than SCSA, but WWE found out about SCSA's spousal abuse issues. They did NOT find out about Benoit's.

Are you now saying that an employer should invade an employee's privacy to check on the state of their marraige????



Yes, I do think every employer (mine included) has a right to know when, and if, their employee has been involved in a criminal act. I think it is imperative to know if a person is predisposed to violent behavior, which is what domestic violence includes.

An innocent person has nothing to hide .



Dancre -> RE: Professional Wrestling Thread (6/27/2007 8:21:28 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: buckifn

Jeff

thinking that suicide "honors" someone is altruistic thinking gone wrong. Suicide brings horrible suffering, pain, and grief to those left behind to deal with such a tragic choice made by a family member or friend.

Maybe the fact he was an abuser, and now a murderer, does not change your opinion of him, but for some of us it does. We don't just want sports figures who do well at the sport they choose to pursue we want men and women of character too.

Is that too much to ask?

This guy's son prob. idolized his Dad as do millions of other kids so what responsibility did he have to those young fans?


The WWF and other agencies, NFL, etc have got to set some standards of accountability. Abusing one's spouse and other crimes should not be acceptable. Think of all the people who have criminal record checks and could not obtain specific jobs if they did specific crimes. Why is the sports world exempt from such standards?


Buck, did you know that Chris was suffering from Steriod usage? That's what drove him over the edge:

quote:

Former professional wrestler Del Wilkes said athletes use steroids to gain strength and size, which are key to success in the wrestling world. But he warned that the drugs sometimes come with "moments of uncontrollable rage."

"You can feel it coming on but there's nothing you can do about it," Wilkes said. "The next thing you know, a minor argument has gone into a full-fledged rage, when you've got your hands around somebody's neck. You're in a fight and doing things you wouldn't normally do."

Wilkes also said the drugs can also cause "tremendous" depression "when guys are coming off steroids after they've been on it for a long period of time."

An official who is part of the investigation told CNN that Benoit's name was on receipts that indicated he had purchased shipments of anabolic steroids and human growth hormones from Signature Pharmacy, an Orlando, Florida, facility that is at the center of a nationwide investigation into the sale of illegal steroids
. http://www.cnn.com/2007/US/06/27/wrestler/

Chris was using illegal steriods to make himself bigger and faster. Then he snapped.Steroid usage causes delusions, hearing voices, paranoia and fits of rage. If he wasn't on the steroids, we wouldn't be having this discussion. Now Vince McMann is denying the steroids, claiming Chris planned it, despite the perscription pills. God forbid if McMann's wrestlers should stop taking steroids. We'd stop watching WWE b/c the wrestlers are too tiny and poor Vince would lose alllll that money. Sad, huh? So we demand bigger, faster, meaner, rougher wrestlers and this is what we got, someone who snapped. I think it's horrible that the family was murdered, but evidence is now showing illegal steriods were involved, which could have caused him to snap.



SonInMe1 -> RE: Professional Wrestling Thread (6/27/2007 8:23:14 PM)

I wonder if the WWE now wishes it did not spend three hours honoring a man who could have murdered his family



Dancre -> RE: Professional Wrestling Thread (6/27/2007 8:25:26 PM)

i'm wondering if the WWE wishes they hadn't pushed steriods on their wrestlers.



buckifn -> RE: Professional Wrestling Thread (6/27/2007 10:03:11 PM)

I heard there were steroids in the medicine cabinet at his house. I also believe it was well known and prob encouraged in the WWF. But will court documents prove that- I guess we will have to wait and see.



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