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RE: Can a Universalist be saved? - 4/7/2008 3:53:04 PM
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Him4all
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Snappy,
quote:
Alot of things said relating to this doctrine is grossly misunderstood, and in a sense, not fair.
Very true. But the rules are the rules.  But when on understands that man's rules are often as imperfect as man's understanding of God then you must simply appreciate that they do allow somewhat of a voice...and for that, one must be grateful.
1CO 15:28 And when all things shall be subdued/hupotasso unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject/hupotasso unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.
5293 hupotasso: to subordinate; reflex. to obey
Is the above verse saying that Christ isn't huposasso/'obeying God' until that time when all things hupotasso/'obey Him'?
DR
_____________________________
When you violate LOVE you violate GOD.
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RE: Can a Universalist be saved? - 4/7/2008 3:59:49 PM
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Nothingman
Posts: 134
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An interesting quote by Luther that I came across. Regard Origen's view of universalism, that all will somehow be reconciled with God eventually, he apparently said, "'any minister who doesn't believe this is a monster...any minister who preaches it is a fool."
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RE: Can a Universalist be saved? - 4/7/2008 4:08:29 PM
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Dred
Posts: 229
Joined: 10/11/2007
From: Alabama
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Nothingman
quote:
Origen is not of such good repute among orthodox Christians; why did you choose to mention him rather than one of the others, such as Gregory of Nyssa? And which of the great fathers of the early church stated any agreement with points 7 through 10?
Glad you mentioned him. The father of the theologyof the Trinity. Just as an aside, all you Sola Scripture folk can rested assured that your belief in the Trinity came a man three to four centuries after Jesus.
Anyways, Gregory also tended toward universalism. His view is closer to mine, which I stated above, than Origen's is. While Gregory did not contend that all will be saved per ce, he did believe we could pray for those who had already died (for salvation), ie, that our fate is not absolute upon earthly death.
Having read some of Gregory's statements on the subject, he did a lot more than tend toward it. But I succeeded in flushing one of you out--you are not a Trinitarian. Is it the default Arianism of the always online Concordant crew or the less popular modalism? I said I didn't think universalism in itself ought to be considered heresy. I think one reason it is so poorly received is its association with other things of more importance.
But there are some staunch Trinitarians among universalists such as Gregory of Nyssa or George MacDonald. So it is possible. I think the association between universalism and true heresy results from the fact that most who are willing to embrace something unusual just like to embrace the unusual and don't know when to stop.
_____________________________
"We count any belief in Him, even the smallest belief, better than any belief about Him." --from Robert Falconer, by George MacDonald
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RE: Can a Universalist be saved? - 4/7/2008 4:15:00 PM
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Dred
Posts: 229
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From: Alabama
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Nothingman
An interesting quote by Luther that I came across. Regard Origen's view of universalism, that all will somehow be reconciled with God eventually, he apparently said, "'any minister who doesn't believe this is a monster...any minister who preaches it is a fool."
I suspect most people here won't find that quote at all interesting unless you can reference it somehow for verification. Lots of interesting quotes are attributed to interesting people which are entirely fictional.
_____________________________
"We count any belief in Him, even the smallest belief, better than any belief about Him." --from Robert Falconer, by George MacDonald
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RE: Can a Universalist be saved? - 4/7/2008 4:19:54 PM
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Nothingman
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I'll try to dig up a reference but I admit, I heard that from a friend who is in Bible College. I'll see where he got that from...
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RE: Can a Universalist be saved? - 4/7/2008 4:22:17 PM
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Nothingman
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Dred, please forgive me as I'm a little slow...
quote:
But I succeeded in flushing one of you out--you are not a Trinitarian. Is it the default Arianism of the always online Concordant crew or the less popular modalism? I said I didn't think universalism in itself ought to be considered heresy.
Are you saying I am not a Trinitarian? Why?
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RE: Can a Universalist be saved? - 4/7/2008 4:57:48 PM
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Dred
Posts: 229
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From: Alabama
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Nothingman
Dred, please forgive me as I'm a little slow...
quote:
But I succeeded in flushing one of you out--you are not a Trinitarian. Is it the default Arianism of the always online Concordant crew or the less popular modalism? I said I didn't think universalism in itself ought to be considered heresy.
Are you saying I am not a Trinitarian? Why?
Well, it was this
quote:
Glad you mentioned him. The father of the theologyof the Trinity. Just as an aside, all you Sola Scripture folk can rested assured that your belief in the Trinity came a man three to four centuries after Jesus.
though perhaps you only meant to give a jab to the Sola Scritura position. It still sounds to me like you are asserting that the idea of the Trinity could not come from reading the Bible. However, you may mean that the way Sola Scriptura folk describe the Trinity can be traced in its language back to Gregory.
_____________________________
"We count any belief in Him, even the smallest belief, better than any belief about Him." --from Robert Falconer, by George MacDonald
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RE: Can a Universalist be saved? - 4/7/2008 7:39:24 PM
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Nothingman
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Purely a jab at the Sola Scripture position. Trinitianism can be derived from the Bible. But the fact that it took a fourth century theologian to articulate it demonstrates the cryptic nature of the Bible and necessity of theologican interpretation, to some degree...
Anyways, back to the topic. I read your post and you said you don't think Universalism should be considered heretical. Granted, that means you don't prescibe to the view. May I ask what your views on the matter are then?
And I'm not seeing the association between one who is a universalist and therefore necessarily is likely (not absolutely, as you point out) not to be a Trinitarian. Maybe could you explain that a little..?
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RE: Can a Universalist be saved? - 4/7/2008 10:19:21 PM
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fallenstar
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If they really tried, anybody could be saved.
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RE: Can a Universalist be saved? - 4/8/2008 8:54:46 AM
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SnapDraggin
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quote:
Him4All wrote:
1CO 15:28 And when all things shall be subdued/hupotasso unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject/hupotasso unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.
5293 hupotasso: to subordinate; reflex. to obey
Is the above verse saying that Christ isn't huposasso/'obeying God' until that time when all things hupotasso/'obey Him'?
Hi there Him4All,
I believe 1 Co 15:28 doesn't talk about "obeying", but rather "subjection", meaning you subject yourself to a power greater than yourself. All power in heaven and earth was given to Christ, but there comes a time when Christ himself will be subjected unto God the Father. When all is subjected unto Christ, Christ's work will be done and will give the Kingdom back to God the Father.
Regards
Snappy
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RE: Can a Universalist be saved? - 4/8/2008 11:24:58 AM
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Dred
Posts: 229
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Nothingman
Purely a jab at the Sola Scripture position. Trinitianism can be derived from the Bible. But the fact that it took a fourth century theologian to articulate it demonstrates the cryptic nature of the Bible and necessity of theologican interpretation, to some degree...
Anyways, back to the topic. I read your post and you said you don't think Universalism should be considered heretical. Granted, that means you don't prescibe to the view. May I ask what your views on the matter are then?
And I'm not seeing the association between one who is a universalist and therefore necessarily is likely (not absolutely, as you point out) not to be a Trinitarian. Maybe could you explain that a little..?
I don't think there is any natural association, but the association certainly exists. If you espouse universalism, you will be suspect in that area. A lot of it comes from the union of the Unitarian and Universalist churches some time ago, although the reason they united was not shared doctrine so much as a common dearth of doctrines considered important. Both groups were diminishing and they formed a new group with very little in the way of distinctive doctrines. These days, it is apparently difficult to find a Unitarian or a Christian universalist in the Unitarian Universalist Association (they quit calling it a church several years ago).
Otherwise, if you look around at universalism on the web, you will quickly run into a strong Arian presence through the Concordant Publishing Concern. They are all about so much more than Arian universalism; it gets really weird. I don't see how they can be taken seriously, but they are enthusiastic and make their presence known.
Anyway, supporting or decrying universalism itself really isn't the topic of this thread, though people on both sides quickly forgot that. Some definition of universalism was necessary as many people simply heard "pluralism" or "Unitarianism" both of which have problems either with the importance of Jesus or even His identity. I think we do need to identify our Savior and realize what He saves us from, but that is about it for salvation (other than trusting Him for it).
As for me, I make it a point not to get into discussions of eschatology on these forums. You seem to have an interest in the Patristics; have you heard of the Doctrine of Reserve?
_____________________________
"We count any belief in Him, even the smallest belief, better than any belief about Him." --from Robert Falconer, by George MacDonald
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RE: Can a Universalist be saved? - 4/8/2008 1:19:46 PM
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abraxas
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Hi, this is a related question--I'm hoping related enough to put in here.
If no man cometh to the father but by Christ, can Christ grant access to the father to whomever He chooses? And does He have to give any reason for choosing to do so?
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RE: Can a Universalist be saved? - 4/8/2008 1:37:10 PM
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restored08
Posts: 78
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Anyone can be saved. John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that WHOSOEVER believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. 3:18 HE that believeth on him is not condemned, but HE that believeth not is condemned already, because HE hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. Roman 10:9-10 That is THOU (you) confess with THY (your) mouth and believe in THINE (your) heart that God hath raised him from the dead, THOU (you) SHALT (will) be saved. 10 For with the heart MAN believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto SALVATION. 13 WHOSOEVER call upon the name of the Lord shall be SAVED.
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RE: Can a Universalist be saved? - 4/8/2008 3:18:20 PM
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Him4all
Posts: 427
Joined: 6/26/2007
From: Kansas
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Snappy,
quote:
I believe 1 Co 15:28 doesn't talk about "obeying", but rather "subjection", meaning you subject yourself to a power greater than yourself.
How does 'subordinating' or 'subjection' manifest itself, if not through 'obedience'?
quote:
All power in heaven and earth was given to Christ, but there comes a time when Christ himself will be subjected unto God the Father. When all is subjected unto Christ, Christ's work will be done and will give the Kingdom back to God the Father.
AMEN.
DR
_____________________________
When you violate LOVE you violate GOD.
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RE: Can a Universalist be saved? - 4/8/2008 11:59:47 PM
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SnapDraggin
Posts: 20
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Dred
Origen is not of such good repute among orthodox Christians; why did you choose to mention him rather than one of the others, such as Gregory of Nyssa? And which of the great fathers of the early church stated any agreement with points 7 through 10?
Morning Dred,
Of course Origen wasn't in good repute with the orthodoxy. He believed in the salvation of Satan! God made Satan the way he is (Gen 3:1; Joh 8:44) and God will restore Satan again. Orthodoxy will absolutely class that as heretical. Ahhh, but if you try and find the reasons why Origen was deemed heretical, it's not so crystal clear and sounds fishy, because very good things are said about Origen if you dig a little deeper - he was well respected and the accusations are vague..
quote:
The historian Schaff concedes that among those quickened and inspired to follow Origen were Pamphilus, Eusebius of Cæsarea, Didymus of Alexandria, Athanasius, Basil the Great, Gregory of Nazianzum, and Gregory of Nyssa; and among the Latin fathers, Hilary and Jerome. And he feels obliged to add: "Gregory of Nyssa and perhaps also Didymus, even adhered to Origen's doctrine of the final salvation of all created intelligences."[2]("The theology of Christendom and its character for the first three centuries was shaped by three men. Ignatius, Irenæus and Cyprian gave its organization; Clement and Origen its form of religious thought." British Quarterly Review, 1879)
quote:
The treatment experienced by Origen is one of the abnormalities of history. The first hostility to him, followed by his deposition and excommunication, A.D. 232, is conceded to have been in consequence of his opposition to the Episcopal tendencies of Bishop Demetrius, and the envy of the bishop. His Universalism was not in question. Lardner says that he was "not expelled from Alexandria for heresy, but for envy." Bunsen says: "Demetrius induced a numerous synod of Egyptian bishops to condemn as heretical Origen's opinion respecting the universality of final salvation." But Bunsen seems to contradict his own words by adding: "This opinion he had certainly stated so as even to hold out a prospect of the conversion of Satan himself by the irresistible power of the love of the Almighty," bet he was condemned "'not,' as says St. Jerome, who was no friend to his theology, 'on account of novelty of doctrine--not for heresy--but because they could not bear the glory of his learning and eloquence.'" The opposition to Origen seems to have begun in the petty anger of Demetrius, who was incensed because of Origen, a layman, delivered discourses in the presence of bishops (Alexander and Theoctistus), though at their request, and because he was ordained out of his diocese. Demetrius continued his persecutions until he had degraded Origen from the office of presbyter, though all the ecclesiastical authorities in Palestine refused to recognize the validity of the sentence. His excommunication, however, was disregarded by the bishops of Palestine, Arabia and Greece. Going from Alexandria to Greece and Palestine, Origen was befriended by Bishop Firmilian in Cappadocia for two years; and was also welcomed in Nicomedia and Athens.4
Huet says: "Everyone, with hardly an exception, adhered to Origen." And Doucin: "Provided one had Origen on his side, he believed himself certain to have the truth."
quote:
"The voice of the Alexandrian [Origen] is more like that glowing, rainless desert wind that sometimes sweeps over the Nile delta, with a thoroughly unromantic passion: pure, fiery gusts. Two names come to mind in comparison: Heraclitus and Nietzsche. For their work too is, externally, ashes and contradiction, and makes sense only because of the fire of their souls which forces their unmanageable material into a unity and, with a massive consumption of fuel, leaves behind a fiery track straight across the earth. Their passion, however, stems only from the Dionysian mystery of the world. But here, in Origen, the flame shoots out and darts upward to the mystery of the super-worldly Logos-WORD [. . .]"
Origen's alleged words...
quote:
"I want to be a man of the Church. I do not want to be called by the name of some founder of a heresy, but by the name of Christ, and to bear that name which is blessed on the earth. It is my desire, in deed as in spirit, both to be and to be called a Christian.
If I, who seem to be your right hand and am called Presbyter and seem to preach the Word of God, If I do something against the discipline of the Church and the Rule of the Gospel so that I become a scandal to you, The Church, then may the whole Church, in unanimous resolve, cut me, its right hand, off, and throw me away."
And now something different, to show something regarding orthodoxy vs heterodoxy... It's all about propoganda..
quote:
In 1517, a year after the publication of the Novum Instrumentum and while the Complutensian Polyglot was still in press, Luther proclaimed his famous 95 theses from the door of the Schlosskirche in Wittenberg. Luther's final break with Rome occured in 1520, when he denounced the Roman Church and all its doctrines, and he invited all German pinces to follow him. In June 1520, the pope declared all writings by Luther to be heretical and ordered their destruction. In reply, Luther burned the papal bull. On January 3 1521 he was excommunicated, and he withdrew into tactical hiding at the twelfth-century castle of the Wartburg, near Eisenach in Thuringia...
Things like these make you wonder just how much fairplay is involved, before accusing someone of heresy, and there's much much more examples.
Regards
Snappy
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RE: Can a Universalist be saved? - 4/9/2008 12:49:48 AM
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SnapDraggin
Posts: 20
Joined: 2/10/2007
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quote:
ORIGINAL: restored08
Anyone can be saved. John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that WHOSOEVER believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. 3:18 HE that believeth on him is not condemned, but HE that believeth not is condemned already, because HE hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. Roman 10:9-10 That is THOU (you) confess with THY (your) mouth and believe in THINE (your) heart that God hath raised him from the dead, THOU (you) SHALT (will) be saved. 10 For with the heart MAN believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto SALVATION. 13 WHOSOEVER call upon the name of the Lord shall be SAVED.
Php 2:10 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;
Php 2:11 And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.
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RE: Can a Universalist be saved? - 4/9/2008 1:52:45 AM
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SnapDraggin
Posts: 20
Joined: 2/10/2007
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Him4all
Snappy,
quote:
I believe 1 Co 15:28 doesn't talk about "obeying", but rather "subjection", meaning you subject yourself to a power greater than yourself.
How does 'subordinating' or 'subjection' manifest itself, if not through 'obedience'?
quote:
All power in heaven and earth was given to Christ, but there comes a time when Christ himself will be subjected unto God the Father. When all is subjected unto Christ, Christ's work will be done and will give the Kingdom back to God the Father.
AMEN.
DR
Hi Him4all,
I think we are talking the same language here and understand it in the same way. Christ is subordinate to God the Father.
Regards
Snappy
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RE: Can a Universalist be saved? - 4/9/2008 10:43:12 AM
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Dred
Posts: 229
Joined: 10/11/2007
From: Alabama
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quote:
Of course Origen wasn't in good repute with the orthodoxy. He believed in the salvation of Satan!
I don't think that was their problem with him, since others were not condemned for believing such things and were even praised for their leadership and orthodoxy at the same time. For example, in Gregory of Nyssa's Catechetical Orations, (Chapter 26,) Christ is spoken of as "the One who both delivers man from evil, and who heals the inventor of evil himself."
I agree that Origen may have been treated unfairly, particularly in the sense that some heresies may be attributed to him that he did not support. Those heresies attributed to him have been attributed both by those who reject them and by those who believe them and try to use Origen as their support. Those of the latter kind seem to have a preference for Origen to the exclusion of less controversial church fathers.
Largely for that reason, Origen carries less weight among the orthodoxy of our day to whom you wish to appeal. Citing him for universalism won't be any more effective than citing him for some of his more peculiar doctrines such as the pre-existence of souls or that "the moon and the stars are also reasonable beings, and that they have only become what they are because they turned towards evil."
Again, I have some doubts that he actually believed some of the things attributed to him, but they are part of his reputation.
_____________________________
"We count any belief in Him, even the smallest belief, better than any belief about Him." --from Robert Falconer, by George MacDonald
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RE: Can a Universalist be saved? - 4/9/2008 11:18:07 AM
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Nothingman
Posts: 134
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Dred...I will reply to you soon. I have finals right now so I'm a little preoccupied...
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RE: Can a Universalist be saved? - 4/9/2008 12:13:34 PM
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restored08
Posts: 78
Joined: 2/7/2008
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[/quote]
Php 2:10 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;
Php 2:11 And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.
[/quote]
Php 2:10 Speaks of those that are saved and are followers of Him. God exalted Jesus and gave in a name which is above every name and at His name every knee should bow, it didn't say every knee will bow.
11 says every tongue should confess, not that every tongue will confess.
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RE: Can a Universalist be saved? - 4/13/2008 11:35:05 PM
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dboutwell
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Can a Universalist be saved? I say yes because I am a Christian Universalist.
I was saved in the traditional sense about 31 years ago. I found myself in my very lost condition, confessed my sin before God and asked His forgivness. I called on the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and was gloriously saved. Such a life changing event...
Now, I still believe in that very same God, the very same Lord, Jesus Christ. The very same Bible that told me I needed a savior and told me how to get Him. The only thing that has changed about what I believe, except for a few things I wll add, is the length of time for God's judgment and the purpose of it. That is all.
I don't believe there is salvation in any other that Christ, I just believe Christ will do what He said He would do in John 12:32. That is to draw (drag in the Greek) all to Himself if He was crucified on the cross. Well, we beleive that He was indeed crucified so why not believe He will draw all to Himself, even if it is through the fires of judgment? We will all go through the fire. Those of us who are willing to lay down our lives now will be purified by that same fire and those who insist on trying to be "God" themselves, or don't think they have to repent(which Paul said commands all men to do) will be brought to the end of themselves in the lake of fire and call on the Lord... I see no expiration date on the mercy of God.
We were made by God and for God. We were all reconciled back to God through the cross because we are His. None of us responded to some cosmic altar call and asked to be born in sin, we just were... I also believe that is part of God's process also, or, it would not have happened.
So, if eternal life = going to Heaven or being "saved", then, yes, a Universalist can be saved. John 5:24 says if we believe on Christ, we have passed from death(which is the real wages of sin...not Hell) unto life and will not come into judgment but we have eternal life..now.
Debbie :)
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