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RE: Reformed Theology Chat Thread - 4/26/2008 1:42:58 AM
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Ephesians4_32
Posts: 2302
Joined: 4/30/2005
From: The Crossroads of America
Status: online
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quote:
ORIGINAL: TheoJunkie
Eph,
Chances are, you won't get a response from Ted. I believe (based on reading his comments regarding this visit in the blog from whence he came) that his self-appointed mission was to swoop in to give me a spanking as best as he could muster, and then swoop out again.
I was curious about what Jimbo asked Ted, that's all.
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RE: Reformed Theology Chat Thread - 4/26/2008 2:57:40 PM
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TheoJunkie
Posts: 2378
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: Death to Life
Status: offline
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John-- Hi back. Good to see you around again.
April -- Yes, I saw the movie and it was really good. I highly recommend it.... even if on DVD.
_____________________________
-John
God is God. Get used to it.
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RE: Reformed Theology Chat Thread - 4/26/2008 3:11:15 PM
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TheoJunkie
Posts: 2378
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: Death to Life
Status: offline
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Eph...
Thanks for the PM. I tried to reply but your mailbox was full (or so it said).
Never give up hope. Just plant seed and water diligently. God changes the soil and makes it grow. And God works on his own schedule.
_____________________________
-John
God is God. Get used to it.
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RE: Reformed Theology Chat Thread - 4/28/2008 12:46:27 PM
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DougHorton
Posts: 436
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: Georgia
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: TheoJunkie
In case you haven't heard... there is a movie coming out April 18, starring Ben Stein ("Buehler.... Buehler..."), called "Expelled: No Intelligence Allowed"...
http://www.expelledthemovie.com/
... about the scientific community's squelching of heretical thoughts that God might have had something to do with anything. (Sort of like the church refusing to allow discussion of a round earth, back in the day... but now the pendulum has swung to the other side).
Unfortunately, the wrong people are going to the movie.
_____________________________
Doug
You may think it strange, but he never likes any assistance. When he made the world, he did not ask the angel Gabriel so much as to cool the molten matter with his wing, but he did it entirely himself. -- Spurgeon
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RE: Reformed Theology Chat Thread - 4/29/2008 1:10:21 AM
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Ephesians4_32
Posts: 2302
Joined: 4/30/2005
From: The Crossroads of America
Status: online
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quote:
ORIGINAL: TheoJunkie
Eph...
Thanks for the PM. I tried to reply but your mailbox was full (or so it said).
Never give up hope. Just plant seed and water diligently. God changes the soil and makes it grow. And God works on his own schedule.
Thanks! I don't think it's full, but sometimes there's a glitch in the system.
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RE: Reformed Theology Chat Thread - 5/12/2008 7:37:31 PM
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mcleod
Posts: 498
Joined: 4/4/2006
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While walking down the street a U.S Senator is hit by a truck and dies. His soul arrives at Heaven's gate and is met by Peter. "Welcome" says Peter. Before you settle in, you need to spend one day in hell, then one day in heaven, then you can decide where you want to spend eternity. "I've already made up my mind", says the Senator. "I want to be in heaven".
"I'm sorry, but I have to follow the rules", is the final responce from Peter.
With that, the Senator is escorted to an elevator and is taken to hell. the doors open and he finds himself in the middle of a golf course. In the distance is a clubhouse and standing in front of him are many of his fellow politicians. Everyone is in formal attire. They run to greet him, shake his hand and reminisce about the good times they had while getting rich at the expense of the taxpayers. They played a round of golf, then dined on lobster, caviar, and champagne. Also present was the devil, who seems a freindly sort who has a great time dancing and telling jokes. They're having such a good time that it only seems like minutes have passed before it's time for the senator to leave.
Peter is waiting for him, and takes him to a group of contented souls who are moving from cloud to cloud playing the harp, singing songs, and dining on steaks and ambrosia. Again the 24 hours pass quickle, then Peter reappears.
"Okay, you spent your 24 hours in hell and 24 in heaven, so it's time to make your choice", he tells the senator.
The senator reflects for few minutes, then he says, "Well, I never would have thought it possible"," but while heaven has been a delightful, I really did have a good time in hell and that's where I want to spend eternity".
With that Peter takes him back to the elevator and he again is taken to hell.
This time, when the doors open, he's in the middle of a hot, dry, barren land, filled with waste and garbage. He sees all his friends, dressed in rages, picking up trash and putting it into garbage bags as more trash pours down from above. The devil comes over to him and puts his arm around his shoulder." Welcome back!"
"Idon't uderstand it" says the senator. "Yesterday, I was here and there was this great golf course, and clubhouse and lobster to eat, and champagne to drink. We all danced and told jokes and had a great time. Now there's ust this waste land full of garbage and my friends all look miserable. What happen?
"It' simple" say the devil. "Yesterday we were campaigning. Today you voted."
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RE: Reformed Theology Chat Thread - 5/13/2008 12:32:13 AM
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Heavendweller
Posts: 413
Joined: 12/22/2007
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Greetings to all you Reformed Folk,
I attended a Reformed Baptist Church which strictly adhered to 5 point Calvinism. I was never convinced. I suppose John Wesley's teachings stuck with me from attending a Wesleyan Bible College. My closest Christian friend who I've known for many years is a 5 pointer. Luckily my husband isn't. 
What can I say, I just can't convert. Oh well, it's all been predestined anyway, so what have I to do with it in the first place?
Enjoy your fellowship.
Heavendweller
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RE: Reformed Theology Chat Thread - 5/13/2008 2:34:58 AM
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faithfulservant_
Posts: 218
Joined: 3/6/2008
Status: online
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When do you think the "book of life" was written? I believe the "book of life" was written before the creation of man. I believe names cannot be added or erased from this book. I believe the names written in this book are eternal. What are your thoughts?
< Message edited by faithfulservant1 -- 5/14/2008 12:02:41 AM >
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RE: Reformed Theology Chat Thread - 5/13/2008 9:06:04 AM
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mcleod
Posts: 498
Joined: 4/4/2006
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Ephesians4_32
mcleod, that's funny!
I thank you for the comment. I thought it would work really good in the reform section seeing they are the most arrogant people who can't see their own sins because God has blinded them to it. Them and baptist run neck and neck to rules that aren't even mention in the Bible.
One told me his name is written in the book of life. So I ask him what voice God told him it? in bass or baritone?
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RE: Reformed Theology Chat Thread - 5/13/2008 10:11:08 AM
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JimboFletch
Posts: 3707
Joined: 4/11/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Covaan_Meshuga
Jimbo --
While I was in a particular brand of holiness (barely recognizable as Wesleyan), the thing that most thoroughly convinced me that reformed theology was closest to the truth was these "holiness people" themselves.
The main thing that made me think was the rampant unrepented sin (in that it was repeated, repeated, repeated) among some in that group that was ignored, and when it was not ignored, it was swept under the proverbial carpet.
Now, this church taught that any sin completely broke relationship with G-d, and that one lost their salvation and was hell-fodder. According to them, this was the case no matter what. However, these were people I knew personally, and as I watched some of them sin and sin -- the same egregious sins against others over and over! -- I began to realize that the glowing testimonies of victory were mere facades and their claims were groundless.
As i considered them, my initial response was that I was horrified that they condemned others to hell for what they were themselves doing! They seemed oblivious to that fact that their condemnation of others condemned themselves! But for me, the idea that they were going to hell for what they were doing was too much: there had to be another answer.
So I began to look into the reformed idea, to read it in my Bible, and to ask questions. What I learned was sosmetimes comforting when I considered these people and sometimes very disconcerting. What can I say.
In their services, they encouraged bright, glowing oral testimonies of their personal holiness-triumphs and of the church organization itself. The church was verbally responsive, so when people said things the leadership liked, they were "amen"ed, but if they said something that was not according to the leadership's preference, they were noticeably silent.
It became interesting in time as I noticed what when those who testified told of how they were overcoming evil with their goodness, or even of the good things they attributed to G-d Himself, they were "amen"ed. But when they told how they loved the church organization itself, of the benefits of the church organization itself, and of the good things they saw in the church organization itself, they were "AMEN!"ed very enthusiastically.
At the end of my tenure there, I decided to test this theory. I stood up during a camp meeting testimony time and gave a testimony, telling what G-d had done for me, and they "amen"ed. So I switched to the "glories" of the organization, and the "amen"s were very noticeably more enthusiastic. I ended my testimony and sat down. That was the last time I testified publically in that organization.
I believe there are innocent people there who simply love the L-rd. I have to believe that. But fortunately, G-d did not make me judge over the others for the sake of eternal condemnation. I would HATE that job. I just pray that those in that organization will somehow find Truth. Actually, I also pray that the organization will dissolve if it does not, because it has done enough damage already.
You described my experience quite well too. There was a kind of Catch 22 among them that prevented anyone from getting real help. Nobody dared admit to having sin in their life - they lost standing with the group and gave fodder to others for making themselves feel more righteous (and in better shape for getting to heaven). People generally gave the impression that they were without temptations or trials but were quick to point out the sins of others and also cold-heartedly savaged anyone in their midst found to have any weakness. It was a real jungle where the strong and proud rose to prominence - but it was all a charade, of course.
It was a tremendous relief to quit pretending to be without fault or weakness and learn what community among believers is intended to be.
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RE: Reformed Theology Chat Thread - 5/13/2008 1:26:45 PM
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Heavendweller
Posts: 413
Joined: 12/22/2007
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: faithfulservant1
When do you think the "book of life" was written? The bible makes no mention of the time frame so there is no definitive answer. However, we all know that the "book of life" was written before the creation of man. I don't believe any names can be added or erased from the book. I believe the names written in this book is eternal. What are your thoughts?
Hello Faithful,
God knows the end from the beginning but I do not. However, my opposition to 5 point Calvinism goes beyond what you have written. Points 2 and 3 I especially cannot agree with.
I realize though, that this is not a place to debate doctrine, right? While I attended a Calvinist church for 10 years, I met wonderful brethren and not such wonderful brethren. But that's to be expected anywhere. My husband and I are still friends with the pastor and I have great respect for him.
My husband and I are very close to a Reformed thinking couple. Our children consider them to be like their aunt and uncle and their daughter like their cousin. We just went to a basketball game with another Calvinist friend of ours. All of these folks we have known for many years. And we would be there in a minute to help each other out and have been on many occasions.
But, we disagree doctrinally. We have been through the LONG discussions on the "Doctrines of Grace," studying such theologians as Pink and Spurgeon to mention a few. But my husband and I always come away unconvinced.
Thankfully the relationship with our friends goes deeper than Calvinist or Arminian theology. And believe it or not, we have had various gatherings at our home with Christians from both sides of the spectrum. We are able to enjoy one another's company and look beyond the disagreements.
God Bless you in your walk with Christ,
Heavendweller
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RE: Reformed Theology Chat Thread - 5/13/2008 1:37:04 PM
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Heavendweller
Posts: 413
Joined: 12/22/2007
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: JimboFletch
I hope you feel better after your snipe-and-run. 
I felt the same way as you for more than 3 decades - raised and deeply committed to the Wesleyan perspective on conditional grace. But my perspective changed after seeing the logical progression of a salvation kept by one's own efforts. It wasn't pretty and it wasn't Christ-like in the least. I pray never again to be brought down into that slough of despond.
Grace really isn't about us or our ability. It's either all about Him or it's man-centered and man-driven.
Jimbo,
Did I come off as though I was "sniping and running?" Perhaps I did. I thought I was just being playful. But then we can misinterpret each other on these threads, don't you agree? In any case, I need to be more mindful not to be offensive to others.
I understand why you had such a horrible experience among the "holiness" crowd. Yes, there are self-righteous folk who think they have "arrived" at holy living. That certainly isn't me. I am definately a work in progress.
I think one day when we are in Heaven, by the grace of God, we will all come to see the defects in our theology. No one has the absolute corner on Truth. No one possesses complete understanding and knowledge of God.
For me, I must be faithful to Jesus Christ with the gifts and talents He has given me, and not bury them in the ground. I am learning that in my walk with Christ, I must first look at myself before pointing the finger at others. Easy to say, hard to do.
God Bless you on your walk with Christ, Jimbo.
Heavendweller
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RE: Reformed Theology Chat Thread - 5/13/2008 1:57:50 PM
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Heavendweller
Posts: 413
Joined: 12/22/2007
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Covaan_Meshuga
Uh-oh! Thank you for responding so kindly. I did not know that this thread was for just chatting, so I put that post on the wrong thread. This thread has just been hanging around in my personal forums list for years, hardly touched. I simply forgot.
I will remove it and place it in the proper thread.
Hello Covaan,
I understand your bad experiences quite well. I was involved with a para-church ministry when I first became a Christian. The arrogance, competition and back-biting was horrible. This ministry eventually became a full-blown cult. In fact, the CIA came in to investigate the group. I cannot begin to tell you the horror stories of my life there.
Since that time, I have met Christians from various "camps" of theology. I've fellowshipped with Mennonites, worshipped with Covenant Presbyterians, attended Assemblies of God, been a member of a non-denominational church, been involved in ministries where all kinds of denominations were a part. What I'm trying to say is I've not been sheltered. So, I've heard just about everything...or so I thought until I came to Crosswalk.com.
Whatever bad experiences you had, consider that there are "bad apples" in all denominations. And any theology can be misunderstood, or taken to such an extreme that it becomes indefensible. Calvinists have their version of "hyper-Calvinism" which comes in the form of Harold Camping of Family Radio. I used to listen to his program 25 years ago, but now he has gone off the deep end.
One of the greatest temptations, I think, is for a Christian to think more highly of himself than those "other" Christians who have "bad" theology. I fallen into that category in times past and it is not a nice place to be. So, how does one grow in knowledge, understanding and the wisdom of God and yet display love, compassion, long-suffering, and kindness toward others who do not believe as they do? For me, it has been and continues to be a growing process.
Yes, there is some truth to Augustine's thinking regarding "unity in the essentials and charity in all things." I know there's another part to that but I forgot what it is.
God's blessings to you in your daily walk with Christ,
Heavendweller
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RE: Reformed Theology Chat Thread - 5/13/2008 5:07:24 PM
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TheoJunkie
Posts: 2378
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: Death to Life
Status: offline
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quote:
I thought it would work really good in the reform section seeing they are the most arrogant people who can't see their own sins because God has blinded them to it. Them and baptist run neck and neck to rules that aren't even mention in the Bible
McLeod,
I will charitably assume that I am not reading your statement correctly, because at first glance it appears to be a rather serious slam against both adherents of RT and Baptists. Perhaps you meant that senators are arrogant and blinded to their sin.
Would you like to rephrase, or (if not) please take it to the designated thread (which I have unsubscribed from because I'm sick of such blather).
< Message edited by TheoJunkie -- 5/13/2008 5:13:26 PM >
_____________________________
-John
God is God. Get used to it.
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RE: Reformed Theology Chat Thread - 5/13/2008 11:31:36 PM
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faithfulservant_
Posts: 218
Joined: 3/6/2008
Status: online
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quote:
original: theojunkie
McLeod, I will charitably assume that I am not reading your statement correctly, because at first glance it appears to be a rather serious slam against both adherents of RT and Baptists.
Actually, you were reading the statement correctly. It was a personal attack against reformed theology and Baptists. I was also offended by McLeod's comments but I've been verbally attacked so many times in these threads that I've kind of gotten used to it.........
< Message edited by faithfulservant1 -- 5/14/2008 2:13:38 PM >
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RE: Reformed Theology Chat Thread - 5/14/2008 1:31:53 AM
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Covaan_Meshuga
Posts: 2134
Joined: 6/8/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Heavendweller
I understand your bad experiences quite well....So, I've heard just about everything...or so I thought until I came to Crosswalk.com.
Whatever bad experiences you had, consider that there are "bad apples" in all denominations....version of "hyper-Calvinism" which comes in the form of Harold Camping of Family Radio.
I was very fortunate that when I was in that church organization, while in Minneapolis, I had a lot of dealing with a Baptist church that was reformed, through the private school my children attended there until we moved out of state. I learned much from them, but I never would have told them so, because I was so taken in, so totally fooled, by the church I attended. But the things they said to me stuck. When I began to really see what the church of the same organization (but in a western coastal state) really was, I remembered what they had said and began my research that began to change my mind.
I know you are not reformed, and you lean more toward Arminius as well as the holiness teaching (??). I have been there, and it just did not work for me. I simply knew too much. I wish I could write that it was just that church in that organization, but I can't: I saw it outside that organization as well. It is hard for me.
I cannot and will not look upon people who espouse those beliefs as all evil; I know better. But it is hard because I know that people with bright, shining faces, all aglow for G-d, can be deceivers. They can look like the best of us and be among the most evil. These are the ones who sully those who really love the L-rd, making them look like they, too, are as evil. Sad.
_____________________________
Abiyah
Why does He keep quoting Torah? Doesn't He know He's about to abolish it?
Looking,waddling, and quacking are not the essence of duckness.
G-d has only one natural-born Son; EVERYONE else is adopted.
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