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RE: Reformed Theology Chat Thread - 1/17/2008 4:10:20 PM
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Rick4Him
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quote:
ORIGINAL: JimboFletch
Rick, I'm a little surprised that you're interested in RT, but only because your avatar looked to me to be a Catholic "sacred heart" picture of Jesus.
Jim,
No Im not Catholic, I just liked the icon. I didn't even know it was considered a Catholic picture.
Rick
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RE: Reformed Theology Chat Thread - 1/17/2008 4:33:05 PM
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JimboFletch
Posts: 4680
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Rick4Him
quote:
ORIGINAL: JimboFletch
Rick, I'm a little surprised that you're interested in RT, but only because your avatar looked to me to be a Catholic "sacred heart" picture of Jesus.
Jim,
No Im not Catholic, I just liked the icon. I didn't even know it was considered a Catholic picture.
Rick
Rick, the "sacred heart" beneath the outer robe is a Catholic image. And their crucifixes generally show Christ still on the cross, unlike Protestant crosses. Sometimes it's something subtle that identifies one tradition over another.
I found an article on Wikipedia:
LINK
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RE: Reformed Theology Chat Thread - 1/17/2008 4:41:25 PM
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doinkdom
Posts: 3640
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: The higher lowcountry
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I remember a long time ago, someone told me that if the cross had a Jesus still on it, then you make the assumption it had Catholic origins (for whatever reason). He also said that the reason most other denominations leave the cross "empty" is significant to the resurrection - Jesus is no longer on the cross.
Anyway, I always thought that was an odd thing to observe. I am now finding out that any image of Jesus or the cross is viewed as idolatry by many people.
We are an odd people, are we not?
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RE: Reformed Theology Chat Thread - 1/20/2008 3:21:53 AM
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Ephesians4_32
Posts: 2280
Joined: 4/30/2005
From: The Crossroads of America
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quote:
ORIGINAL: TheoJunkie
quote:
I ran across this article online, and I have to say that I can't agree with it at all:
In contrast to common evangelical teaching on assurance of salvation, often associated with teachings on “eternal security,” Wesleyans believe that assurance of salvation is an assurance of present salvation and not final salvation. Christians can know they are presently saved, but because final salvation is contingent upon continued faith and cooperation with divine grace, there can not be any confidence about final salvation. Wesleyans believe that people can experience progress in the way of salvation by cooperating with divine grace; likewise, people can regress in the way of salvation through refusing to cooperate with divine grace. Therefore, while people can know that they are presently Christians, if they do not continue to cooperate with divine grace, they may find themselves in a place where they no longer have faith and are no longer Christians.
http://cbounds.blogspot.com/2006/09/brief-commentary-on-wesleyan-churchs_12.html
This makes it sound like man helps God save him. I can't understand that. Those who walk away from God's grace were not Christians. So that kind of bugs me.
Eph,
I'm not trying to be inflammatory when I say this... but this is basically Roman Catholic soteriology (sans purgatory). It's rather depressing to me, really, and fuels my cynical tendencies... Sometimes I think the only difference between the Wesleyans and the Catholics, are that the Wesleyans don't pray to saints, don't venerate Mary, don't believe in transubstantiation, don't go to purgatory, and don't have priests or a pope.
... which means all of the similarities are in their version of the Gospel.
... and the Gospel-- Evangelion-- is where the Reformation started, and where the term Evangelical came from.
My life isn't easy. My son is studying with and will join the Orthodox Church. One daughter is Methodist and two don't attend church, but why do I believe as I do? It isn't something I can help. I believe and what I believe is what the Holy Spirit and the word of God reveal to me. I can't call myself a Calvinist, but I can't believe that people come to faith on their own. It's something that happened to me. I want others to believe, but I don't have the power to make them believe.
_____________________________
“To suppose that whatever God requireth of us that we have power of ourselves to do, is to make the cross and grace of Jesus Christ of none effect.” - John Owen
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RE: Reformed Theology Chat Thread - 1/20/2008 3:38:45 AM
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Ephesians4_32
Posts: 2280
Joined: 4/30/2005
From: The Crossroads of America
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quote:
ORIGINAL: DougHorton
I'm surprised to hear of a Mennonite church practicing foot washing. (My wife was Mennonite before we married, so I'm not ignorant of their practices.) I have only seen foot washing in the Primitive Baptist church I grew up in and on the mission field in our team worship, and only there because I introduced it.
I think it is a great practice! Although it is not a sacrament, I wish more churches would use it.
http://forums.christianity.com/fb.aspx?m=2924948
quote:
ORIGINAL: DougHorton
I asked my wife about foot washing in the Mennonite church. She'd never heard of it practiced there. But I'm sure they are as varied as any other denomination.
http://forums.christianity.com/fb.aspx?m=2929435
I think you have to recognize that not all Mennonites fall under one denomination.
And I thought all Mennonites practiced foot washing until you said that, so I looked it up. My church membership is Mennonite(MC) and I live in Mennonite/Amish country.
Among the North American Mennonite groups the observance varies. The following groups practice it universally, following the communion service: Mennonite Church (MC), Conservative Mennonite Church, Old Order Amish, Evangelical Mennonites, Evangelical Mennonites (Kleine Gemeinde), Reformed Mennonites, Mennonite Brethren in Christ, United Missionary Church, Krimmer Mennonite Brethren, Church of God in Christ Mennonites. The Mennonite Brethren formerly universally observed the ordinance, but now in the United States the number is 85-90 per cent of the congregations, while in Canada only a minority do so. Among the General Conference Mennonites only a small minority of the congregations practise footwashing, depending upon the background of each congregation. A study by S. F. Pannabecker in 1929 showed that of 107 G.C.M. congregations in the United States, 23 encouraged it. Of the 23, the Western District had 10, the Northern District 8. Since then the number has decreased. An official conference study in 1943 showed that then 9 congregations made it obligatory, while 14 encouraged it. The Evangelical Mennonite Brethren, who formerly practiced it universally, have almost completely dropped it. The Lower Skippack Mennonite Church (Johnson Mennonite) withdrew from the Eastern District Conference (GCM) in 1861 because it observed footwashing, while the conference refused to make it mandatory. The Evangelical Mennonites and the Mennonite Brethren in Fernheim Colony, Paraguay, also practise footwashing.
http://www.anabaptistnetwork.com/footwashing
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RE: Reformed Theology Chat Thread - 1/21/2008 3:27:20 PM
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SovereignIsHe
Posts: 2550
Joined: 4/15/2005
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Thank God that He is sovereign and that nothing is apart from His will...
Isaiah 43:13 Yea, before the day was I am he; and there is none that can deliver out of my hand: I will work, and who shall let it?
Isaiah 44:7 And who, as I, shall call, and shall declare it, and set it in order for me, since I appointed the ancient people? and the things that are coming, and shall come, let them shew unto them.
Isaiah 48:13 Mine hand also hath laid the foundation of the earth, and my right hand hath spanned the heavens: when I call unto them, they stand up together.
Daniel 4:35 And all the inhabitants of the earth are reputed as nothing: and he doeth according to his will in the army of heaven, and among the inhabitants of the earth: and none can stay his hand, or say unto him, What doest thou?
Romans 8:28 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.
John
Malachi 3:6 For I am the Lord, I change not; therefore ye sons of Jacob are not consumed.
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RE: Reformed Theology Chat Thread - 1/21/2008 8:18:03 PM
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TheoJunkie
Posts: 2344
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: Death to Life
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Eph,
My wife still refuses to believe. My life isn't easy either...
But, until/unless she dies cursing God, I will hold out hope for the future.
=================
Hi again, John. Been a long time!
_____________________________
-John
God is God. Get used to it.
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RE: Reformed Theology Chat Thread - 1/21/2008 10:07:52 PM
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Ephesians4_32
Posts: 2280
Joined: 4/30/2005
From: The Crossroads of America
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quote:
ORIGINAL: TheoJunkie
Eph,
My wife still refuses to believe. My life isn't easy either...
But, until/unless she dies cursing God, I will hold out hope for the future.
It helps me that you shared that. I still have hope even though life doesn't always turn out as we hope.
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RE: Reformed Theology Chat Thread - 1/22/2008 4:41:22 PM
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Doveflight
Posts: 1291
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: middle of nowhere 4 hrs from anywhere
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Eph,
I married my husband thinking he was a believer as well, to learn later, not. He's really a formula born of 12/13 yr confirmation classes in the UCC church. His doctrine is very thin.
My concern is we are attending separate churches. His choice of church is a building with
sunday morning services and a pastor standing in front, irregardless of what is taught. He
doesn't care what they believe if they say they are christian and show him a bible. I am
feeling more convicted of this separation and may open a discussion on possible choices.
Having vistited most of the churches in this area, I have a good idea of where I will need
to compromise.
_____________________________
If I find in myself a desire which no experience in this world can satisfy, the most probable explanation is that I am made for another world. C.S. Lewis
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RE: Reformed Theology Chat Thread - 1/25/2008 9:48:52 AM
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turretinfan
Posts: 5595
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From: Death to Life by the Power of the Spirit
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quote:
ORIGINAL: TheoJunkie
Hi Doug...
I don't know if I'm really here or not, personally. I'm not subscribed to anything but this thread anymore...
I'm practically not here, either.
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RE: Reformed Theology Chat Thread - 1/25/2008 9:50:06 AM
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turretinfan
Posts: 5595
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From: Death to Life by the Power of the Spirit
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quote:
ORIGINAL: YoelNatan
quote:
ORIGINAL: TheoJunkie
I'm reformed, and will call myself Calvinist, though I'm pretty sure there are things that Calvin taught that I don't agree with.
you know I have heard that elsewhere..that they hold to TULIP but not to clavin because of his use of icons and sacraments very interesting stuff huh?
I think you're mistaken about the icons.
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RE: Reformed Theology Chat Thread - 1/25/2008 12:57:07 PM
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turretinfan
Posts: 5595
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From: Death to Life by the Power of the Spirit
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Ode,
I'm not going to debate you on this, as much as I'm tempted.
-Turretinfan
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RE: Reformed Theology Chat Thread - 1/25/2008 8:25:34 PM
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Odeliya
Posts: 1682
Joined: 8/10/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: turretinfan
I'm not going to debate you on this, as much as I'm tempted.
oh my dear.. you know where i want to debate you but sadly you arent there any more 
oh well.. you got blog- it's always good.Maybe i will nag you there - i have a few things to ask you on Owen's writings.
_____________________________
Proverbs XI:14 Where no counsel is, the people fall: but in the multitude of counselors there is safety.
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RE: Reformed Theology Chat Thread - 1/28/2008 1:36:45 PM
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Rick4Him
Posts: 79
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Odeliya,
I see you mentioned Owen. I'm trying to read "The Death of Death in the Death of Christ". Have you read it. I must admit I have difficulty reading much from this time period. I usually have to read very slowly and re-read much to even get a small grasp of what is being read.
Rick
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RE: Reformed Theology Chat Thread - 1/28/2008 8:32:53 PM
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Doveflight
Posts: 1291
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: middle of nowhere 4 hrs from anywhere
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Rick4Him
Odeliya,
I see you mentioned Owen. I'm trying to read "The Death of Death in the Death of Christ". Have you read it. I must admit I have difficulty reading much from this time period. I usually have to read very slowly and re-read much to even get a small grasp of what is being read.
Rick
i began reading this article at the suggestion of TF but found it slow going. Then I thought to print it out, as I seem to be able to read better on paper than my laptop, but had not anticipated how long it was. I'd find it helpful to read through this WITH someone if anyone is interested.
_____________________________
If I find in myself a desire which no experience in this world can satisfy, the most probable explanation is that I am made for another world. C.S. Lewis
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RE: Reformed Theology Chat Thread - 1/30/2008 10:28:39 AM
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DougHorton
Posts: 543
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From: Georgia
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RE: "The Death of Death in the Death of Christ" by Owen
Wow, that was a good study! I remember printing it out and really marking it up! yes, it would be slow reading if you tried to read right through, but there is just too much meat to digest so take it slow.
_____________________________
Doug
You may think it strange, but he never likes any assistance. When he made the world, he did not ask the angel Gabriel so much as to cool the molten matter with his wing, but he did it entirely himself. -- Spurgeon
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RE: Reformed Theology Chat Thread - 2/2/2008 3:40:45 PM
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Geocacher301
Posts: 71
Joined: 4/27/2007
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quote:
I wondered the same thing yesterday and did a search on the thread. It's "Sovereign Grace Ministries."
It is the group that both C.J. Mahaney & Joshua Harris are a part of. Larry Tomczak use to be a part of this group but left the group for various reasons.
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RE: Reformed Theology Chat Thread - 2/20/2008 12:29:56 PM
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TheodenKing
Posts: 4
Joined: 2/20/2008
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John:
Dude, I was a member of SG for 9 years.
Yes, I post on SG Uncensored.
Your stereotypical reply about said blog is incorrect on a variety of fronts, but first:
1. My soteriology is solidly Reformed. If ya wanna know, I'm a 5-Pointer.
2. My eschatology leans either Amil or Historic Pre.
3. I have a BA in History, halfway towards a Master's, and I have some seminary-NOT "Pastor's College," BTW-training.
I can tell you this, IMO:
There is a fundamental flaw in SGM that I think is the reason you have so many hurt, ex-SG members. Yes, there a are a LOT of us out there. There are several in my own local area. Many of us have been "burned." Some of us have suffered heavy-handed "shepherding."
( My wife was told that the childhood sexual and emotional abuse she suffered was not "important, rather your response is," and, "You're better ff than you deserve." Dontcha love that couselling expertise? )<Sarcsam intended>
I think the flaw is quite obvious, and it underlies much of SGM:
I have repeated it over and over, ad nauseum, ad infinitum, on the SG Uncensored site:
It's SG's adoption of the neo-Pentecostal/charismatic "apostolic church government." I mean, after all, WHO can disagree with an apostle? It is "apostolic oversight."
Such oversight NO longer can exist, and can only lead, at some point, to sinful usurping of power. The last apostle, St. John, died c.a. AD 100. There have been none since, in spite of what some maintain. The governing exercised by SG is NOT “essentially reformed.” It flies in the face of Reformers like Luther, Calvin, Zwingli, the Anabaptists. It is copied from the “charismatic” movement of the 60’s-70’s which maintained that the “sign gifts” had been somehow restored to the church in an outpouring described as a “Latter Day Rain.” One of those “sign gifts” was the gift of an apostle.
Attempts at “restoring” this “sign gift” as a part of “renewal” has lead to some tragic results, such as the “Shepherding Movement,” abuse of power within SGM, financial scandals/lack of accountability in prominent televangelistic ministries, etc.
It was NOT meant to be “restored.” God had a definite plan and purpose in His sovereignty, and in His plan for HIs elect church. That plan included apostles who laid the foundations. After the foundations were laid, the apostles were finished with their God-given mandates. I sincerely believe God, in His Providence and sovereignty, protected the apostolic office from hint of corruption, scandal, etc., so that He would establish His church firmly and strongly.
Because we are all sinners, the temptation to assume roles we should not and to don mantles we should not exist. When we we trespass, danger lurks. Absolute power in the hands of sinners corrupts absolutely. Thus, when CJ-or Brent-or ANYONE else assumes the role of an “apostle,” and attempts to govern a body of believers accordingly, danger lurks. Their intentions may be noble, especially at the start. But time inevitably shows us what the results will be.
There are many clear indications and hints in the Bible that the office of Apostle was temporary. Furthermore, church history, of which I am an avid fan, indicates the same.
In your words, Blah, blah, blah, and, "whatever."
I would suggest that issues with heavy-handed shepherding a la SGM is NOT merely "personal," but also DOCTRINAL.
Ted
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RE: Reformed Theology Chat Thread - 2/20/2008 12:55:04 PM
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TheodenKing
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Joined: 2/20/2008
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I would not consider his analysis-if you can call it that-to be:
A. Objective
B. Thorough
He clearly DID NOT read the site much at all. He came off sounding like a "fly by nighter."
Whether everything SGM is criticised for is justified is one thing. One can debate that. But the hurts that folks have suffered can't be glossed. I know personally at least 4 of the posters, and I know HOW local SG leadership handled them.
And if John wants to pass those off with Kool-aid jokes and "whatevers," then he's less relevant than I first thought.
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RE: Reformed Theology Chat Thread - 2/20/2008 1:00:41 PM
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TheodenKing
Posts: 4
Joined: 2/20/2008
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Geocacher:
Some say Tomczak was forced out.
Ted
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