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Fritzpw_Admin -> All Bush - The Critque - One Stop Thread (6/15/2005 12:34:31 PM)

Have a tid bit about Bush?

Don't hold a favorable view on his policies?

Concerns about his war in Iraq?

This is the thread for you.

All Bush.

All the time.

One Stop to critique the president and his policies.



beeper -> RE: All Bush - The Critque - One Stop Thread (6/15/2005 12:55:43 PM)

All I can say about Bush is that if gov't spending is the answer, then W is your president.

I LOVE his foreign policy.

A democratic Iraq will stabilize the region and the world.
It has given terrorists a focal point off US soil.



Fritzpw_Admin -> RE: All Bush - The Critque - One Stop Thread (6/15/2005 1:21:13 PM)

rch,

That really isn't the topic of this thread.

If you wish to discuss that please start a new thread for it.

Please do not reply to this message within the thread.

Email community@salemwebnetwork.com with questions, comments, or concerns.

Please do not send me PMs regarding this message.



Jules Archer -> RE: All Bush - The Critque - One Stop Thread (6/15/2005 1:33:03 PM)

I can't imagine anyone having a single bad thing to say about George W. Bush.



B_Pascal -> RE: All Bush - The Critque - One Stop Thread (6/15/2005 1:33:23 PM)

Honestly I am not in love with Bush's foreign policy it consists of forcing an American style of government on nations that have never in their history pursued that type of government. Iraq doesn't want to be a Democracy, the majority of Iraq (shiite muslims) want an islamic theocracy, they are in power and are already suppressing the tsuni minority. In effect, we are probably setting up an even worse enemy that Saddam was, and not only that, but we are training them too, not too bright IMO.

As far as domestic policy, the usual "money fixes everything" tactics are being applied. Having a problem? Throw money at it, that seems to be the standard these days.



haldir -> RE: All Bush - The Critque - One Stop Thread (6/15/2005 1:46:11 PM)

Um, B_Pascal did you not see the millions of Iraqis that voted in January? I think that is a good indicator that Iraqis want democracy and that Bush is correct in his assessment.



B_Pascal -> RE: All Bush - The Critque - One Stop Thread (6/15/2005 3:20:07 PM)

However Shiite Muslims are blocking the proposal to give Tsuni muslims more representation in Iraq, give it a bit, as far as I remember the taliban started out as democracy that the US set up. If the democracy is largely run by Shiite muslims it will turn into a religious dictatorship quite quickly. I'm dead serious when I say that I believe we will see Iraq descend into even worse conditions than it was in when we invaded them. Hey, if I'm wrong I'll buy you a root beer, just give it some time (meaning maybe a couple of years.) I expect it to be the same kind of descent that russia is on right now (the communist party now controls all branches of government in Russia).



Jhud -> RE: All Bush - The Critque - One Stop Thread (6/15/2005 4:11:49 PM)

quote:

However Shiite Muslims are blocking the proposal to give Tsuni muslims more representation in Iraq, give it a bit, as far as I remember the taliban started out as democracy that the US set up.

This is factually incorrect; the taliban were never a democracy, attempted or otherwise.

If the democracy is largely run by Shiite muslims it will turn into a religious dictatorship quite quickly. I'm dead serious when I say that I believe we will see Iraq descend into even worse conditions than it was in when we invaded them. Hey, if I'm wrong I'll buy you a root beer, just give it some time (meaning maybe a couple of years.) I expect it to be the same kind of descent that russia is on right now (the communist party now controls all branches of government in Russia).


Russia may be having problems, but I would hardly describe them as worse off; and the eastern European countries they dominated are significantly better off.



beeper -> RE: All Bush - The Critque - One Stop Thread (6/15/2005 8:58:47 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: B_Pascal

Honestly I am not in love with Bush's foreign policy it consists of forcing an American style of government on nations that have never in their history pursued that type of government. Iraq doesn't want to be a Democracy, the majority of Iraq (shiite muslims) want an islamic theocracy, they are in power and are already suppressing the tsuni minority. In effect, we are probably setting up an even worse enemy that Saddam was, and not only that, but we are training them too, not too bright IMO.



You are going to have to do better than that. Study history. Japan was a divine monarchy--they thought their leader was god until Mac. showed up and told them otherwise.

We forced an US style government on Japan (and Germany) and few people would argue with the success or the wisdom of the action.

History will judge our foreign policy.



katydid278 -> RE: All Bush - The Critque - One Stop Thread (6/16/2005 12:05:22 AM)

In the thread Bush best/worst president there was discussion on raising taxes for the wealthy and I made a comment that I think it's perfectly fine and doesn't hurt anybody. Then there was this reply:

ByGraceIamSaved said:

"Those that want the extra taxation are the ones who are jealous of the wealthy, not exactly a Chrisitian attribute."

I would like to tell you how offensive this was to me. I am NOT a materialistic person at ALL. And there may be some faults in my personality which could be deemed as not exactly a "Christian attribute" but I kindly suggest that this is NOT one of them and how dare you judge me or anyone here that way. You ASSUMED that because I think it's okay to tax the wealthy that I am 1. jealous and 2. not a good Christian. Well I throw this out to you: One could say that YOU are not showing a Christian attribute when you unfairly judge and bear false witness on your sisters in Christ.

Side note: If I were wealthy I would GLADLY give extra to society. I would feel obligated to share my blessings with those in need. Now I know that others don't feel the same and that's fine. We are just sharing our opinions no? Besides, if you want to get down to the nitty-gritty....who does God warn more so in the Bible the poor or the rich??? Who does he warn has a harder time getting into Heaven? I don't begrudge the rich. I suffer from depression and my only want in life is happiness and a living relationship with my spouse. Even if I had a million dollars I would be depressed because money is not that important to me. It wouldn't take away my depression. It wouldn't find me true love. It is not what pleases the Lord.



babbred -> RE: All Bush - The Critque - One Stop Thread (6/16/2005 8:51:19 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: haldir

Um, B_Pascal did you not see the millions of Iraqis that voted in January? I think that is a good indicator that Iraqis want democracy and that Bush is correct in his assessment.



Somehow, when people are protesting Iraq, they always forget about the Iraqis...before or after the war started. [:D]



Stephanos -> RE: All Bush - The Critque - One Stop Thread (6/16/2005 11:25:52 AM)

May I point something out, it was the Sunni minority that was the corrupt leaders of the old Saddam regiem. It was the Sunni's that supported and were proud to kill the Kurds and the Shieits. Keep that in mind. Second, just how much representation do you think the Sunni's should have? Equal to the others? Hardly. Maybe they should set it up like the American Congress, you know Bi-Camral. Thing is if America was formed today, we would not get the same government because people would insist on the "minority states" to have a fully equal say as the "majority states". When that frankly should not happen. The minority should have a say yes, but they should not have a strong enough say to where they can over rule the majority. It should be equal to the proportion of their population. THAT was the beauty of our founding fathers plan. And that is what we should exspect from the Iraqi's.



1Chronicles714 -> RE: All Bush - The Critque - One Stop Thread (6/16/2005 12:31:54 PM)

Interesting thread....

Hmmm...


Bush's policies - Most of them unconstitutional, and cost the country (taxpayers) more money putting us further in debt.

War in Iraq - We should've stayed out and focused our attention on Osama Bin Laden instead of Saddam.



Closie -> RE: All Bush - The Critque - One Stop Thread (6/16/2005 1:34:59 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Stephanos

Thing is if America was formed today, we would not get the same government because people would insist on the "minority states" to have a fully equal say as the "majority states". When that frankly should not happen. The minority should have a say yes, but they should not have a strong enough say to where they can over rule the majority. It should be equal to the proportion of their population. THAT was the beauty of our founding fathers plan. And that is what we should exspect from the Iraqi's.


So if the majority wants to enslave the minority, so be it? With the Bush and the Republican party in charge of everything, why not move to strictly a majority rule, go with the nu-clar option for all legislation and the world will be a better place, right? Forget compromise, compassion and empathy - just go with 'my way or the highway'. If it's good enough for Iraq, it's good enough for the USA.



Jhud -> RE: All Bush - The Critque - One Stop Thread (6/16/2005 1:50:58 PM)

quote:

So if the majority wants to enslave the minority, so be it? With the Bush and the Republican party in charge of everything, why not move to strictly a majority rule, go with the nu-clar option for all legislation and the world will be a better place, right? Forget compromise, compassion and empathy - just go with 'my way or the highway'. If it's good enough for Iraq, it's good enough for the USA.


Oh, for heaven's sake, the Republican's aren't "in control of everything" and there are plenty of controls on the majority; they just don't happen to include letting the Democratic minority hold our legislative bodies hostage on matters of judicial review.



B_Pascal -> RE: All Bush - The Critque - One Stop Thread (6/16/2005 1:52:05 PM)

I can't prove that Iraq will be worse off but in time I feel I will be proven correct. Russia is not worse off as of right now, however they are heading in that direction and my money says Iraq will not be too far behind. The difference between Iraq and us is that we wanted democracy (representative republic to be more precise). And we built our democracy. If our country had been invaded and a government had been set up by people who thought their way was the best and only way, but didn't understand our country and our culture, would it have worked? bleh, I don't think so, you call attention to Japan and Germany but ignore things like Afghanistan when we set up the taliban (a more recent nation build under a more current style of leadership).

Not only do I believe we will fail miserably in Iraq, I do not believe we should have been in there in the first place, but that's a different post.



Jhud -> RE: All Bush - The Critque - One Stop Thread (6/16/2005 2:04:05 PM)

quote:

I can't prove that Iraq will be worse off but in time I feel I will be proven correct. Russia is not worse off as of right now, however they are heading in that direction and my money says Iraq will not be too far behind. The difference between Iraq and us is that we wanted democracy (representative republic to be more precise).


Of course, the problem with your comparison is that we didn't set up democracy in Russia; the Russians did - so it goes against your argument 'democracy is better if they build it themselves' - the better logic is, they are more likely to have a successful democracy if it is done right, as in Germany and Japan.

quote:

And we built our democracy. If our country had been invaded and a government had been set up by people who thought their way was the best and only way, but didn't understand our country and our culture, would it have worked? bleh, I don't think so, you call attention to Japan and Germany but ignore things like Afghanistan when we set up the taliban (a more recent nation build under a more current style of leadership).


Again, I have to point our that this is factually wrong on two counts; first we did not 'set up' the Taliban. And, of course, the Taliban was never a democracy, or even an attempted democracy, by any stretch of the word.

And the people of Iraq quite obviously do want a democracy, as witnessed by the recent election.



B_Pascal -> RE: All Bush - The Critque - One Stop Thread (6/16/2005 2:12:06 PM)

We did set up the taliban, during the cold war, we helped them fight russia and then set them up in charge of afghanistan, trained them and everything, just like we are doing in Iraq. The Russia thing, we brought about via the Cold War, if you think we played no part in setting up the democracy there, well, nevermind. It didn't work, it has been over sixty five years since we have nation built successfully, and the way we do things and our intentions now are much different, but I'm not arguing this point any more because nobody can prove the future. I just don't see this turning out well.



Jhud -> RE: All Bush - The Critque - One Stop Thread (6/16/2005 2:46:36 PM)

quote:

We did set up the taliban, during the cold war, we helped them fight russia and then set them up in charge of afghanistan, trained them and everything, just like we are doing in Iraq.


No, we didn't set up the Taliban, we funded the mujahdeen, of which the Taliban was a part. The Taliban rose to power after the Soviet withdrawal, in the course of the battles between Afgani warlords. There is no comparison with Iraq here.

quote:

The Russia thing, we brought about via the Cold War, if you think we played no part in setting up the democracy there, well, nevermind. It didn't work, it has been over sixty five years since we have nation built successfully, and the way we do things and our intentions now are much different, but I'm not arguing this point any more because nobody can prove the future. I just don't see this turning out well.


I never said we "played no part" - I said we didn't set up the now Russian government. We of course had a part in the withdrawal of the Soviets from eastern Europe and the subsequent fall of the Soviet government (or more properly, Reagan and Thatcher did); but sixty 'years' (apparently not counting South Korea) is irrelevent, though I do appreciate your unwillingess to try to predict the future based on this understanding of the past.



Closie -> RE: All Bush - The Critque - One Stop Thread (6/16/2005 4:32:30 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Jhud

quote:

So if the majority wants to enslave the minority, so be it? With the Bush and the Republican party in charge of everything, why not move to strictly a majority rule, go with the nu-clar option for all legislation and the world will be a better place, right? Forget compromise, compassion and empathy - just go with 'my way or the highway'. If it's good enough for Iraq, it's good enough for the USA.


Oh, for heaven's sake, the Republican's aren't "in control of everything" and there are plenty of controls on the majority; they just don't happen to include letting the Democratic minority hold our legislative bodies hostage on matters of judicial review.


What don't Bush and his party control? Executive Branch? Legislative Branch? Judiciary? What's left? Well okay, the states...nah, they control most of the governors' seats...

My response was to the person who said that decisions should be based solely on the majority rule. If that's the case, then go on and rule.



Pyre -> RE: All Bush - The Critque - One Stop Thread (6/17/2005 1:37:59 PM)

quote:



What don't Bush and his party control? Executive Branch? Legislative Branch? Judiciary? What's left? Well okay, the states...nah, they control most of the governors' seats...


Hey, if you listen to all the republicans whine, you'd think that they dont control the judiciary either.



Jhud -> RE: All Bush - The Critque - One Stop Thread (6/17/2005 1:39:41 PM)

quote:

Hey, if you listen to all the republicans whine, you'd think that they dont control the judiciary either.


Perhaps because they don't?



Pyre -> RE: All Bush - The Critque - One Stop Thread (6/17/2005 3:35:59 PM)

quote:

Perhaps because they don't?


Yeah probably true, although the supreme court which is what matters is mostly republican appointed soooo... they at least should have control, even though they made a few picks taht didnt turn out the way they wanted.

on the other hand, i with neither party controlled it, make it neutral, but thats never gonna happen.



rrtt11 -> RE: All Bush - The Critque - One Stop Thread (6/17/2005 6:53:33 PM)

Like Bush or not the alternative was far worse. I shudder to think about a Kerry presidency.


On a side note, I have no clue how christians can be liberals as their policies seem to be so anti-christian



ChesterDash -> RE: All Bush - The Critque - One Stop Thread (6/17/2005 10:22:00 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Jules Archer

I can't imagine anyone having a single bad thing to say about George W. Bush.

ARE YOU SERIOUS???



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