|
Users viewing this topic:
none
|
|
Login  | |
|
RE: What do you think of Paul Washer? - 7/1/2008 7:28:56 PM
|
|
|
Gloryandgrace
Posts: 499
Joined: 1/15/2006
Status: offline
|
Phinehas:
My comparison of Jesus to Paul Washer was the content of a scathing message in Matt 23
It seems to me that if you have concluded Paul Washer to be a hypocrite a deceiver and a showman if not an egotist trying to make a name for himself.
Maybe some day you will be able to speak to the crowds, be invited to minister in the different locations he has .....and yes have a message that is condemned by christians and infer from your sermons not some scandal but from your sermons that you are a deceiver....maybe you will be able to enjoy the condemnation and judgment from others that you dish out on him.
Its striking to me that you say such things of him.
John
_____________________________
Isa 42:6 I the LORD have called thee in righteousness, and will hold thine hand, and will keep thee, and give thee for a covenant of the people, for a light of the Gentiles.....
|
|
|
|
|
RE: What do you think of Paul Washer? - 7/1/2008 7:31:14 PM
|
|
|
Eric B
Posts: 61
Joined: 11/22/2005
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: faithfulservant_
Is it just me or does phinehas talk and write just like Eric? Hmmm......lets connect the dots.
Eric makes his last post. Then 5 days later, phinehas coincidentally joins as a new member and re-starts this thread. Eric makes reference to phinehas while they both talk and write exactly the same way.
Eric (CARM) ------> Eric (crosswalk) ------> phinehas. Same person using multiple accounts?
So now, you accuse me of creating a sock puppet? (I was actually trying to wind down the discussion). On top of the "paid for by Joel Olsteen" remark, and your first response to me saying to leave, basically, because you were so offended.
It's obvious you are so attached to this man, and can't debate the issues. (So I would have no reason at all to come back under a different name to continue the discussion!)
IMA,
(despite my not being him) phinehas' answer covers what I would say as well. (People think their doctrine or some preacher they like are so universally true that any two people who respond to it the same way must be the same person? No; two people see the same exact problems, and maybe that's something to consider!)
I also just went to CARM again looking for this person, but I couldn't find him in the few threads I glanced at (and even though that board is formatted liek this one, it does have "theaded" view of the topic avvailable. You don't usually see that on these php type boards).
I did see mention of an Eric Landstrom, who seems to be an administrator there (didn't soneone say this person was a moderator or something).
It that his handle, or only the name in his signature?
< Message edited by Eric B -- 7/2/2008 8:53:01 AM >
|
|
|
|
|
RE: What do you think of Paul Washer? - 7/1/2008 10:03:39 PM
|
|
|
_phinehas_
Posts: 36
Joined: 6/30/2008
From: Leander, TX
Status: offline
|
earthless:
Thanks for the information. It sounds like my kind of site, so I'll have to check it out.
HisFish and faithfulservant:
I am not going so far as to charge Washer with deception. I don't know all the facts. But I am definitely questioning the situation. And it is difficult for me to imagine how Washer could have expected to not be invited back going into his sermon without having been involved in some sort of explicit or implicit deception. '
Despite your silly assertions to the contrary (which I have already addressed so that I am now content to let my "nay" be "nay"), I wasn't actually here to read your responses to Eric on this matter, so please feel free to address the point once you finish with your false accusations.
--Phin
|
|
|
|
|
RE: What do you think of Paul Washer? - 7/1/2008 10:34:35 PM
|
|
|
_phinehas_
Posts: 36
Joined: 6/30/2008
From: Leander, TX
Status: offline
|
John:
quote:
It seems to me that if you have concluded Paul Washer to be a hypocrite a deceiver and a showman if not an egotist trying to make a name for himself.
I've never met Paul Washer, so I am trying to keep any final conclusions in check. I've merely pointed out a number of things that disturbed me about the one message of his that I've seen. If someone were actually to attempt to address the points that I made, perhaps I would eventually draw conclusions that are similar to your own. On the other hand, if people totally ignore the points I've made while making ad hominem attacks, hacking at strawmen, or throwing out red herrings, I'm left scratching my head about the guy. What I've seen appears to fit a pattern with which I am familiar, but I just don't know. In case you've forgotten my points, allow me to sum them up for you.
1) I'm concerned about how Washer dealt with those who invited him to speak, such that he was allowed to preach a sermon that by his own admission would be so egregious that he would never be invited back.
2) I'm concerned about Washer's repeated focus on external issues of culture rather than the fruit of the Spirit.
3) I'm concerned that several truths seem to have suffered in Washer's message for the sake of shock value.
4) I'm concerned that the pattern described above and Washer's evident desire to be seen as a prophet falls in line with human nature's tendency to attain significance through pharaseical means.
quote:
Maybe some day you will be able to speak to the crowds...
Is this what drives Washer? To be able to speak to large crowds? Is this what makes him feel special? I don't really know. I can see how that would fit with not letting those who invited you in on your intent to preach a message that will ensure you never get invited back. I mean, if you were up front with them, they might not invite you to speak in the first place, and you could have to settle for a much smaller crowd. Personally, my desire to speak to crowds resides somewhat below my desire to deal with others in a manner that demonstrates integrity.
quote:
...maybe you will be able to enjoy the condemnation and judgment from others that you dish out on him.
Condemnation? I will take the man at his word that he is my brother in Christ. Will he extend to me the same courtesy? Based on how he treated the 5000 teens in his audience, I have my doubts.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: What do you think of Paul Washer? - 7/1/2008 11:40:23 PM
|
|
|
HisFish
Posts: 540
Joined: 8/3/2005
From: Rocky mountain way
Status: offline
|
quote:
I don't know all the facts.
No, you certainly do not.
quote:
But I am definitely questioning the situation. And it is difficult for me to imagine how Washer could have expected to not be invited back going into his sermon without having been involved in some sort of explicit or implicit deception. '
Out of one side of your mouth you say you dont charge him with deception, and then out of the other side you do exactly that. He knew he might not be asked back because he's been through it before and he knows the arminian hates his message. Is he a prophet?, yes. Look around at the church today and tell me you dont think that it needs a prophet, there's not a dimes worth of difference between what professes to be the church and the world. Im not surprised that there are those who dislike washer, israel had no love for it's prophets either. But he isnt the only one and we had better take heed because first we get the warning, then we get the judgement. Arminianism and it's cheap grace has done great damage, but reformed theology is growing among the younger generation and older types like me who wasted too many years on a doctrine that has no power and has lead to way too many false conversions and false hope.
_____________________________
The theology of the present aims at the deification of man, but the truth of all time
magnifies God . C. H. Spurgeon
|
|
|
|
|
RE: What do you think of Paul Washer? - 7/2/2008 5:27:29 AM
|
|
|
faithfulservant_
Posts: 385
Joined: 3/6/2008
Status: offline
|
I agree with you HisFish. People lose credibility when they contradict themselves. Please see the example below. 
quote:
original: phinehas
I am NOT going so far as to charge Washer with deception.
quote:
original: phinehas
It is difficult for me to imagine how Washer could have expected to not be invited back going into his sermon without having been involved in some sort of explicit or implicit deception.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: What do you think of Paul Washer? - 7/2/2008 9:18:40 AM
|
|
|
Eric B
Posts: 61
Joined: 11/22/2005
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: HisFish
Is he a prophet?, yes. Look around at the church today and tell me you dont think that it needs a prophet, there's not a dimes worth of difference between what professes to be the church and the world. Im not surprised that there are those who dislike washer, israel had no love for it's prophets either. But he isnt the only one and we had better take heed because first we get the warning, then we get the judgement. Arminianism and it's cheap grace has done great damage, but reformed theology is growing among the younger generation and older types like me who wasted too many years on a doctrine that has no power and has lead to way too many false conversions and false hope.
So anyone who talks tough is a prophet?
I've seen all sorts of cults out there who teach the same things about "American Christianity" and how it's "no different from the world" "too easy" etc, and they are challenging everything from the Trinity to "unclean meats" and days of worship, or salvation by grace alone, altogether. They all claimed to be some sort of latter day prophet. And they are all rejected by "orthodox Christianity", and they play upon the "so were the prophets rejected" line as well. So no; he's not the only one. The Catholics and Eastern Orthodox have apologists who are trying to get tougher as well.
All of this just a reaction, as different organized factions vie for control over the minds of the people. They all start from the false assumption that all was well at some point in the Church's past, and then when preachers started "softening" or whatever, that's why everything is like this now. So the Reformed blame Arminianism. But then the Catholics blame the Reformation, from splitting with "the One Church" and creating this ["democratic"] environment where all these groups can splinter yet still call themselves "the Church". (And within Catholicism, the East blames the West for breaking away). But the fact that it once started out as Catholic, or that Protestantism started out as Reformed, but then still turned into this modern church everyone despises, should be proof enough that this blaming and thinking that one's own movement is infallible, is ridiculous.
All anyone is doing in Christendom is blaming each other for all the problems. Meanwhile; nothing gets accomplished. Just more people pointing fingers. This is not what Christ tells us the world should know us by. You would think a real "prophet" would stand out from what everyone else is doing, but this one is just fitting right in with the rest of the chaos. The world looks at this and further dismisses us as confused know-nothings. And we don't even care what others think, because "they're blind anyway". (Yet we claim if we had kept preaching tougher, then all of this "damage" wouldn't have been done and more people would be saved. But if the people were blind, then it's not because of preaching, but because of the sin nature).
So I think we have had too many would-be "prophets" in the history of the American Church. This stems from people looking at one part of the Bible, and being enamored with all the power over people that was manifested. But perhaps you are looking at the wrong things. Things have changed since the days of the Biblical prophets (of Israel). We're forgetting one important thing that comes between us and that age: Jesus. And it bears its fruit with all the dissension it further creates.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: What do you think of Paul Washer? - 7/2/2008 9:51:39 AM
|
|
|
IMA_CHRISTIAN
Posts: 786
Joined: 1/23/2006
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: _phinehas_
quote:
i have two accounts...
Ack! Next thing you know, you'll be tellin' me that Ima Christian isn't your real name.  j/k
I don't know what CARM is, but I was talking more about using two accounts on the same forum in the deceptive way that faithfulservant described.
In the interest of full disclosure, my real name isn't _phinehas_.
--Phin
I did see mention of an Eric Landstrom, who seems to be an administrator there (didn't soneone say this person was a moderator or something).
It that his handle, or only the name in his signature
yes my real name is mary! and voila, you have found him. He and you believe the same doctrines, based on what you and he have written. hes a nice guy, he just believes in the arminian viewpoint, so we have disagreed on some doctrinal issues.. except I am correct hehe ;)
< Message edited by IMA_CHRISTIAN -- 7/2/2008 9:59:08 AM >
_____________________________
I will extol Thee, my God, O King, and I will bless Thy name forever and ever. Great is the Lord and greatly to be praised, and His greatness is unsearchable" (Psalm 145: 1 & 3)
|
|
|
|
|
RE: What do you think of Paul Washer? - 7/2/2008 10:04:31 AM
|
|
|
_phinehas_
Posts: 36
Joined: 6/30/2008
From: Leander, TX
Status: offline
|
quote:
quote:
quote:
I don't know all the facts.
No, you certainly do not.
Right. Feel free to elucidate them for me. Failing that, I remain concerned.
quote:
Out of one side of your mouth you say you dont charge him with deception, and then out of the other side you do exactly that.
Look. If I were sure that he had deceived, I'd charge him as having done so. But I'm not. So I am questioning it. I have a difficult time imagining how there wasn't deception involved, but I'm certainly open to be enlightened on the matter. I am raising the matter as a challenge to those who blindly support him. Please help me understand how he was not deceptive and how he dealt with others in a manner that demonstrated integrity. If this challenge goes unanswered, or is avoided with strawmen, red herrings and the like, then it does tend to move my question toward a conclusion on the matter.
Think of this more like a grand jury hearing where I am trying to investigate whether there is enough evidence for charges. It looks like there could be, but I'm open to hearing opposing testimony. Anyone? Anyone at all? I do note that instead of focusing on an argument against Washer having used deception or having dealt in a manner that doesn't demonstrate integrity, you try to turn the focus to charging me with double-speak. Interesting.
Though you did offer up this.
quote:
He knew he might not be asked back because he's been through it before and he knows the arminian hates his message.
The Armenian hates his message? He was talking to SBC folk wasn't he? To be honest, I'm pretty sure the sermon I heard would be roundly endorsed by many Wesleyan Holiness churches I know, and they are about as Armenian an as you can get. Even so, based on your response, Washer deliberately accepted an invitation to speak before an Armenian (???) congregation knowing that they would hate his message. Do you think he told those who invited him that he planned to preach a message they would hate? Why not?
quote:
Is he a prophet?, yes. Look around at the church today and tell me you dont think that it needs a prophet, there's not a dimes worth of difference between what professes to be the church and the world.
I'm not sure I follow your logic here. The church needs a prophet, ipso facto, Washer is a prophet? That seems like a non sequitor to me.
quote:
Arminianism and it's cheap grace has done great damage, but reformed theology is growing among the younger generation and older types like me who wasted too many years on a doctrine that has no power and has lead to way too many false conversions and false hope.
I'm not really sure where this Armenianism vs Reformed Theology comment is coming from. I don't think any of the points of concern I raised involve that particular debate. I think you might be tilting at windmills and hacking strawmen of your own making here. In any case, based on your comment, I'd guess that I've followed a similar path to you out of an Armenian upbringing.
--Phin
|
|
|
|
|
RE: What do you think of Paul Washer? - 7/2/2008 10:09:30 AM
|
|
|
_phinehas_
Posts: 36
Joined: 6/30/2008
From: Leander, TX
Status: offline
|
quote:
yes my real name is mary! and voila, you have found him.
Hi Mary. Well met. :) I think you meant that second part for Eric B though. I wasn't actually looking for another Eric, and I visited CARM yesterday for the first time. (Nice place, but the forum layout is weird.)
By the way, my real name is Paul. Paul Edwin in fact. I use Phinehas for ALL my online postings because my initials (PES) are embedded in the name: PhinEhaS. That, and because Eleazar's son was zealous for God. And I think it is a cool name.
--Phin (Paul)
|
|
|
|
|
RE: What do you think of Paul Washer? - 7/2/2008 10:27:46 AM
|
|
|
IMA_CHRISTIAN
Posts: 786
Joined: 1/23/2006
Status: offline
|
Hi Phineas - pleased to meetcha. just FYI, I dont get into trying to prove someone is another handle, i can never do that, so i will give everyone the benefit of the doubt and say its a coincidence.. i pointed it out originally because the Eric I knew at CARM had such strong convictions i thought oh man, i gotta ask him if its him out of my huge curiosity wanting to be satisfied. I just ask if something is on my mind.
i cringe when folks speak a bad word against one of my fave preachers Paul Washer, and then in making a guess about him as a person (the word 'deception" was used)... then that implies he is deceiving us... ooooo that makes me cringe about as bad as someone making implications along that line against someone in the Bible who is godly.
I say Just listen to the man, forget about calvinism/arminianism and see if what he says lines up with the Word of God.. which is what we all need to do.. not our opinions, not our feelings, not how it offends us (if we need to be offended, better to be offended and miss hell than to get tickled into hell by nicey nicey sermons). and please let us not do tit-for-tat where "oooo someone offended my Joel osteen so im gonna offend your Paul Washer. Be careful that we are not offending a true man of God whom God has sent to wake up the church.
in a big crowd, or a little crowd even, you might be one who has passed the point of needing to hear a salvation message, but maybe the guy next to you does need to hear it, and perhaps this is his last chance, as tomorrow he is going to meet his Maker, so lets not just think about our own needs, but perhaps someone else needs to hear it.
_____________________________
I will extol Thee, my God, O King, and I will bless Thy name forever and ever. Great is the Lord and greatly to be praised, and His greatness is unsearchable" (Psalm 145: 1 & 3)
|
|
|
|
|
RE: What do you think of Paul Washer? - 7/2/2008 1:25:02 PM
|
|
|
IMA_CHRISTIAN
Posts: 786
Joined: 1/23/2006
Status: offline
|
You know, I like most of ya here ;) but one thing - please be careful when you speak a word against a true minister. Im not into the "touch not my anointed" thing where people use that as a way not intended, and use it to protect their slippery wiley self.
please, dont just drop an insult in there, and then make further claims -
What proof or what fruits do you have that a minister is allegedly deceptive? You will know them by thier fruits.
I have never seen Paul Washer preach anything but humble, true, and desiring that we adore God the way God deserves it.
Can you find and locate where he made any such thing you accuse him of? I personally think he stepped on someone's toes and that is why someone is offended.
hey before anyone starts throwing around words that disdain a minister of God, and I mean a true minister - not a fake one who tickles ears and leaves you feeling your ok when you are really just a wannabee - you better be sure to tell me what makes you think that minister deserves to have his reputation slandered.
yes slander!!! there is such a thing.
_____________________________
I will extol Thee, my God, O King, and I will bless Thy name forever and ever. Great is the Lord and greatly to be praised, and His greatness is unsearchable" (Psalm 145: 1 & 3)
|
|
|
|
|
RE: What do you think of Paul Washer? - 7/2/2008 2:49:41 PM
|
|
|
Gloryandgrace
Posts: 499
Joined: 1/15/2006
Status: offline
|
Paul (phinehas)
My first impression is that youve never stood in his shoes for a moment.
Youve not had to deliver something to a congregation that you knew they would kick against. Youve not been obedient to God at the cost of your pastor avoiding you for months, the men in the congregation forming some opinion that you are all about 'taking them to the woodshed' or that your to hard or harsh on people and dont love folks like you should.
You are judged as mean spirited and 'hell-fire and brimstone' kinda preacher when in fact yould rather preach on heaven.
I dont believe for a moment Paul is seeking negative attention or that he is a pharasee. I believe that is utterly ridiculous, you can have your opinion but I strongly disagree. Paul doesnt get on that stage ready to enjoy and good scathe sermon and gleefully dish-out denunciations as though its part of his gig. I could tell Paul weighed his words carefully, he feels the constraint of the Spirit to preach and yet senses the revulsion of the carnal minded ones that will speak evil of him for telling them God is not kidding, unless you are born of God you will never see God's kingdom. Paul tells them "many of you claim to have seen the kingdom" but they act like it never existed at all in their everyday actions and lifestyle.
It hurts to be rejected even if you know God fully approves of what youre saying, even if you know God is pleased you feel the rebuff of people you only seek to help by telling them the truth. Maybe youve not made enemies because of the truth? Maybe youve never had to be obedient to God where it cost you fellowship among the men, you paid the price of obedience by gaining a standoffish pastor that once loved and appreciated you. Now you are not invited to speak, nor are you considered for future preaching engagments.
Why? Because if you continue, someone like yourself will raise up a crowd of nay-sayers and start a problem such as youve done here.
he's decieved, hes in it for the showmanship, he just wants negative attention, he just wants folks to think hes a prophet, he is a negative person and emits anger at the congregation, he is a pharasee and judgmental....and on and on it goes.
Paul feels the pressure to tell the truth. I feel the pressure to tell the truth. I know I will not be ashamed at his appearing, neither will Paul
John
_____________________________
Isa 42:6 I the LORD have called thee in righteousness, and will hold thine hand, and will keep thee, and give thee for a covenant of the people, for a light of the Gentiles.....
|
|
|
|
|
RE: What do you think of Paul Washer? - 7/2/2008 4:16:04 PM
|
|
|
wintery
Posts: 1338
Joined: 2/1/2007
From: nw alabama
Status: offline
|
Paul Washer's church of choice and pastor of choice, Jeff Noblit:
from the Wall Street Journal
First Baptist Church of Muscle Shoals, Ala., a 1,000-member congregation, expels five to seven members a year for "blatant, undeniable patterns of willful sin," which have included adultery, drunkenness and refusal to honor church elders. About 400 people have left the church over the years for what they view as an overly harsh persecution of sinners, Pastor Jeff Noblit says.
***********************
400 good people in Muscle Shoals have the gumption to disagree by Noblit's own words. Good for them.
***********************
From the Florida Baptist Witness
Jeff Noblit, senior pastor of First Baptist Church in Muscle Shoals, Ala., said a resurgence of Calvinist doctrines would help Southern Baptists reclaim a sagging conviction in the sufficiency of Scripture and would promote true evangelism.
"The rise of Calvinism in the Southern Baptist Convention will help us overcome inerrancy idolatry and reclaim the sufficiency of Scripture in our churches," Noblit said. "Holding to the inerrancy of the Scriptures without at least an equal passion and commitment to the sufficiency of Scripture for all faith and practice is sheer idolatry."
*********************
That's a very interesting high standard. There are other idolatries.
None of you can vouch for every case of expulsion by this group. How about a single case?
Logic would say that giving a blanket endorsement to what you know not is not wise. It may come back to bite you.
I think very highly of some of you in particular who like Paul Washer but I don't think you've thought about this. Maybe you didn't know about it.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: What do you think of Paul Washer? - 7/2/2008 5:21:12 PM
|
|
|
Gloryandgrace
Posts: 499
Joined: 1/15/2006
Status: offline
|
quote:
First Baptist Church of Muscle Shoals, Ala., a 1,000-member congregation, expels five to seven members a year for "blatant, undeniable patterns of willful sin," which have included adultery, drunkenness and refusal to honor church elders. About 400 people have left the church over the years for what they view as an overly harsh persecution of sinners, Pastor Jeff Noblit says.
***********************
400 good people in Muscle Shoals have the gumption to disagree by Noblit's own words. Good for them.
In many of our churches today....this claim can be made.
Over a thousand endorsing homosexuality as a viable alternative lifestyle have been attending faithfully at....m-church..
Hundreds and thousands have been safely looking at internet porn, addicted to perscription drugs, approve teen age sexual encounters, commit adultery and violence. Partake in rude and vile speech patterns
commit violence on their mates, lying, theft of all kinds. gossiping and backbiting, refusal to study the scriptures, and consider prayer time a waste of time over 5 minutes.....
These people are safely and securely living in your own church, living under the roof of churches everywhere, they act as elders, deacons, pastors, layministers, youth ministers and so on. These have never been confronted,never been rebuked and never been challenged to their lifestyles. They are safely presuming God doesnt care, that the church is not harmed and that church discipline is a thing of the past.
Can you believe the outrageousness of refusing membership to adulterers? Or even thieves? What has the church come to when you cannot do what you want when you want, and all you want in the name of Jesus???? How dare anyone actually promote a biblical standard....
When I see posts that condemn church discipline in a broad brush manner expecting that we should trust the wall street journal to give us all the exact details... I worry that we only prove loud and clear Paul W is right on.
John
_____________________________
Isa 42:6 I the LORD have called thee in righteousness, and will hold thine hand, and will keep thee, and give thee for a covenant of the people, for a light of the Gentiles.....
|
|
|
|
|
RE: What do you think of Paul Washer? - 7/2/2008 5:27:26 PM
|
|
|
IMA_CHRISTIAN
Posts: 786
Joined: 1/23/2006
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: wintery
Paul Washer's church of choice and pastor of choice, Jeff Noblit:
from the Wall Street Journal
First Baptist Church of Muscle Shoals, Ala., a 1,000-member congregation, expels five to seven members a year for "blatant, undeniable patterns of willful sin," which have included adultery, drunkenness and refusal to honor church elders. About 400 people have left the church over the years for what they view as an overly harsh persecution of sinners, Pastor Jeff Noblit says.
***********************
400 good people in Muscle Shoals have the gumption to disagree by Noblit's own words. Good for them.
***********************
From the Florida Baptist Witness
Jeff Noblit, senior pastor of First Baptist Church in Muscle Shoals, Ala., said a resurgence of Calvinist doctrines would help Southern Baptists reclaim a sagging conviction in the sufficiency of Scripture and would promote true evangelism.
"The rise of Calvinism in the Southern Baptist Convention will help us overcome inerrancy idolatry and reclaim the sufficiency of Scripture in our churches," Noblit said. "Holding to the inerrancy of the Scriptures without at least an equal passion and commitment to the sufficiency of Scripture for all faith and practice is sheer idolatry."
*********************
That's a very interesting high standard. There are other idolatries.
None of you can vouch for every case of expulsion by this group. How about a single case?
Logic would say that giving a blanket endorsement to what you know not is not wise. It may come back to bite you.
I think very highly of some of you in particular who like Paul Washer but I don't think you've thought about this. Maybe you didn't know about it.
Thats called church discipline, per the way it was in the first century.. didn't Paul tell the people that if there were someone in there that was committing a sin, tell it to he and you, and if he did not receive you, take 2-3 witnesses and if he still didn't repent, treat him like an infidel. Also didn't Paul recommend that if someone were in blatant sin, they were supposed to be disciplined such as being kicked out of the church, otherwise if not, then the church would be as a partaker of that man's sin. Remember jesus said "a little leaven leveneth the whole lump" the reason such "harsh" discipline is needed is because that person is affecting the rest of the congregation by willfully sinning.. now we dont know if the people ALLEGEDLY were kicked out or not, and what was the circumstance, but it is the DUTY OF THE ELDERS and the ministers to carry out such a thing, so that the rest of the congregation would realize you cannot just mess around in sin and then just do whatever. I believe the way church discipline works is you give the person a chance to repent, and if they continue, then they can get kicked out as a discciplline. Thers more, but i will have to look it up.
_____________________________
I will extol Thee, my God, O King, and I will bless Thy name forever and ever. Great is the Lord and greatly to be praised, and His greatness is unsearchable" (Psalm 145: 1 & 3)
|
|
|
|
|
RE: What do you think of Paul Washer? - 7/2/2008 7:22:59 PM
|
|
|
HisFish
Posts: 540
Joined: 8/3/2005
From: Rocky mountain way
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: wintery
Paul Washer's church of choice and pastor of choice, Jeff Noblit:
from the Wall Street Journal
First Baptist Church of Muscle Shoals, Ala., a 1,000-member congregation, expels five to seven members a year for "blatant, undeniable patterns of willful sin," which have included adultery, drunkenness and refusal to honor church elders. About 400 people have left the church over the years for what they view as an overly harsh persecution of sinners, Pastor Jeff Noblit says.
***********************
400 good people in Muscle Shoals have the gumption to disagree by Noblit's own words. Good for them.
***********************
From the Florida Baptist Witness
Jeff Noblit, senior pastor of First Baptist Church in Muscle Shoals, Ala., said a resurgence of Calvinist doctrines would help Southern Baptists reclaim a sagging conviction in the sufficiency of Scripture and would promote true evangelism.
"The rise of Calvinism in the Southern Baptist Convention will help us overcome inerrancy idolatry and reclaim the sufficiency of Scripture in our churches," Noblit said. "Holding to the inerrancy of the Scriptures without at least an equal passion and commitment to the sufficiency of Scripture for all faith and practice is sheer idolatry."
*********************
That's a very interesting high standard. There are other idolatries.
None of you can vouch for every case of expulsion by this group. How about a single case?
Logic would say that giving a blanket endorsement to what you know not is not wise. It may come back to bite you.
I think very highly of some of you in particular who like Paul Washer but I don't think you've thought about this. Maybe you didn't know about it.
My esteem for pastor Noblit is higher now than before.
_____________________________
The theology of the present aims at the deification of man, but the truth of all time
magnifies God . C. H. Spurgeon
|
|
|
|
|
RE: What do you think of Paul Washer? - 7/2/2008 9:15:40 PM
|
|
|
_phinehas_
Posts: 36
Joined: 6/30/2008
From: Leander, TX
Status: offline
|
Hey Mary,
quote:
just FYI, I dont get into trying to prove someone is another handle, i can never do that, so i will give everyone the benefit of the doubt and say its a coincidence..
I appreciate that. It is actually kinda funny from my perspective, since I know who I am and that I'm not anyone else. Except when people tend to focus on that instead of the points I'm making. Then it's just annoying. But anyway, thanks.
quote:
i cringe when folks speak a bad word against one of my fave preachers Paul Washer, and then in making a guess about him as a person (the word 'deception" was used)... then that implies he is deceiving us...
To clarify, I don't think that Washer is trying to deceive us. My concern was the events surrounding him speaking at a youth retreat and saying that he knew he wouldn't get invited back. I'm trying to imagine how that is possible without someone being deceptive on some level. Any help in this regard would be appreciate, since I'm having a difficult time formulating a scenario where this happens while everyone is being totally open and honest with each other. Am I way off base on this? So far, no one has really helped to clear this up. They just jump on me for calling Washer deceptive. I'm sorry, but if you believe strongly that he wasn't deceptive, please help me understand how that could have been the case.
quote:
I say Just listen to the man, forget about calvinism/arminianism and see if what he says lines up with the Word of God..
This is like the third or so time someone has brought up the calvinism/armenianism thing, and I'm frankly a bit confused as to why people keep bringing it up. Did I say ANYTHING at all in listing my concerns that would imply the Calvin/Armenian debate is at all relevant? I certainly don't have an axe to grind in that debate. Nor am I Armenian. And nothing I heard from Washer would make me think he is either. Is it just that everyone else here is so hot on this debate that they can't imagine that I'm not? Again, none of my concerns have anything whatsoever to do with where Paul Washer stands on the C/A debate. As far as I know I don't have any disagreement with Washer on this issue, though I don't really know a lot about his exact position. So, can we please stop bringing up this red herring?
quote:
...and please let us not do tit-for-tat where "oooo someone offended my Joel osteen so im gonna offend your Paul Washer.
I don't know a whole lot about Joel Osteen, but I'm certainly not a big fan of his. I'm not particularly into the whole cult of personality thing that surround many of these preachers. I care about the Bible and biblical teaching. And if the Bereans searched the scriptures daily to see if the Apostle Paul spoke the truth, Osteen and Washer and anyone else should not be above being held to the same standard.
quote:
in a big crowd, or a little crowd even, you might be one who has passed the point of needing to hear a salvation message, but maybe the guy next to you does need to hear it, and perhaps this is his last chance, as tomorrow he is going to meet his Maker, so lets not just think about our own needs, but perhaps someone else needs to hear it.
I have no problem with convicting messages. I have no problem with shocking messages. I have no problem with hellfire and brimstone messages. I have no problem with messages that focus on God's love. I DO have a problem with messages that sacrifice biblical truth in pursuit of any of these.
quote:
Can you find and locate where he made any such thing you accuse him of?
Yes. I detailed them in my first post, but will repeat them here. These are the things that Washer said that I believe are in error biblically. If anyone believes otherwise, please present your case.
1) Washer tells his audience explicitly that God doesn’t love everyone. Washer tries to justify this statement by saying that one must hate in order to love. As an example, he says that because he loves children, he must hate abortion. But Washer appears to miss completely that the former are people, while the latter is a sin.
2) Washer tells his audience explicitly that the cross is not a sign of man's worth. Rather, according to Washer, it is solely a sign of man's depravity.
3) Washer tells his audience explicitly that there is no such thing as a carnal Christian, despite the fact that the Apostle Paul says that some of the believers in Corinth are carnal.
4) Washer tells his audience that you will know Christians by their fruit, but instead of naming the biblical fruit of the Spirit, he implies that the fruit here has to do with not listening to secular music, watching secular TV shows, wearing certain clothes, and other external, cultural-based standards.
There are only a few options here for those who are looking to defend Washer.
a) You don't believe Washer said this. (If so, I can point you to the message and the time where he does.)
b) You think Washer did say this, and it is biblical. (If so, please provide scripture to back this up.)
c) You think Washer did say this, and it is not biblical. (In which case, you should have concerns similar to my own.)
--Phin
|
|
|
|
|
RE: What do you think of Paul Washer? - 7/2/2008 9:27:25 PM
|
|
|
wintery
Posts: 1338
Joined: 2/1/2007
From: nw alabama
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: Gloryandgrace
Can you believe the outrageousness of refusing membership to adulterers? Or even thieves? What has the church come to when you cannot do what you want when you want, and all you want in the name of Jesus???? How dare anyone actually promote a biblical standard....
I repeat that not one of you can vouch for this. Wanting to believe it and knowing are not the same.
quote:
ORIGINAL: Gloryandgrace
When I see posts that condemn church discipline in a broad brush manner expecting that we should trust the wall street journal to give us all the exact details... John
Hardly. I live here.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: What do you think of Paul Washer? - 7/2/2008 9:33:52 PM
|
|
|
_phinehas_
Posts: 36
Joined: 6/30/2008
From: Leander, TX
Status: offline
|
Hey John,
quote:
Maybe youve not made enemies because of the truth?
Well, I hope I haven't made enemies here. I'm certainly not trying to. Yet I do feel a bit like I've been attacked simply for honestly laying out some concerns I had after watching Paul Washer speak to 5000 teens.
Since the "truth" is exactly what is at issue here, it seems a little presumptuous to talk of making enemies "because of the truth." That kinda assumes exactly what is being debated. So, I say, "I'm a bit concerned that some of what Washer says doesn't seem to line up with biblical truth." And you replay, "Maybe youve not made enemies because of the truth?" That's a rather neat trick for avoiding talking about the issue, implying that you've won a debate about "truth" despite have avoided it, and then turning the whole thing back around on me as though I'm out to persecute the guy. Yes, that is a neat trick indeed.
To the persecution accusation that keeps rearing its head, it isn't as though I started a thread aimed at lambasting Washer. I merely responded to one that specifically requested my honest evaluation. I gave it, and suddenly I'm condemning and judgmental? If someone didn't want me to share my concerns about Washer, they shouldn't have started a thread asking what I think. Maybe someone meant to start a thread titled "What sort of glowing praise would you heap on Paul Washer?" If that's the case, I'm sorry for the misunderstanding.
--Phin
|
|
|
|
|
RE: What do you think of Paul Washer? - 7/2/2008 9:38:34 PM
|
|
|
HisFish
Posts: 540
Joined: 8/3/2005
From: Rocky mountain way
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: wintery
quote:
ORIGINAL: Gloryandgrace
When I see posts that condemn church discipline in a broad brush manner expecting that we should trust the wall street journal to give us all the exact details... John
Hardly. I live here.
Huh?
_____________________________
The theology of the present aims at the deification of man, but the truth of all time
magnifies God . C. H. Spurgeon
|
|
|
|
|
RE: What do you think of Paul Washer? - 7/2/2008 9:46:14 PM
|
|
|
wintery
Posts: 1338
Joined: 2/1/2007
From: nw alabama
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: IMA_CHRISTIAN
now we dont know if the people ALLEGEDLY were kicked out or not, and what was the circumstance, but it is the DUTY OF THE ELDERS and the ministers to carry out such a thing, so that the rest of the congregation would realize you cannot just mess around in sin and then just do whatever.
I live here and I've heard about it for years, IMA. I know members of the church and ex-members of the church. I won't betray the confidence of those who have spoken with me about it. We can't be hysterically supportive of someone to the point of where we're saying what they believe instead of them saying it. This is always put forth as a defense of people but it applies to the defenders as well.
If we don't know it then we can't defend it because of a youtube sermon we liked. People's lives matter. I don't feel like pulling out all the Scriptures against Nicolaitanism tonight.
Remember this one: "refusal to honor church elders." That sounds wide-open for interpretation. What "sin" can cause your expulsion? I note that Noblit is on top of the elders list.
|
|
| | |
Forum Tools
Printable Version
