Transgenderism/Crossdressing One Stop thread (Full Version)

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ladioffaith -> Transgenderism/Crossdressing One Stop thread (11/27/2006 12:46:59 PM)

Many people struggle with transgenderism or crossdressing, or know someone who does.

Are these things sinful? Is there help for anyone who wants to be free from these desires?

This is the place to share information designed to lead people struggling toward wholeness and healing.

Because of the nature of the topics that may take place in this thread and because certain individuals may not be equipped to discuss them in an appropriate manner we reserve the right to edit, restrict, or ban any individual for any reason at our sole discretion. We reserve the right to take that action without giving any reason for the decision.

Users who engage in this thread do so at their own risk and Salem Web Network can not be held liable for any consequences or responses made within the Community.

Please do not create new threads on the topic of Transgenderism or Crossdressing.

To discuss the topic of homosexuality please CLICK HERE

Here are a few resources for transgenderism and/or crossdressing:

This link addresses transgenderism
RealitResources.com

This link addresses the issue of crossdressing
Stonewallrevisited.com



45degreeN -> RE: Transgenderism/Crossdressing One Stop thread (11/27/2006 1:19:24 PM)

For my way of thinking Transgendered is like spina bifuda, they are born that way. It is wrong to condemn them for someting they are not responsible for.

Cross dressing is just amusing at worst, I say let them be, they have enough problems of their own without the condemnation of the world also.



Baltimatt -> RE: Transgenderism/Crossdressing One Stop thread (11/27/2006 1:25:21 PM)

Isn't there some verse (Old Testament, I believe) that says a man should not put on clothing that pertains to a woman and vice versa?

However, who determines what is what? Clothing styles vary by culture and time.



Baltimatt -> RE: Transgenderism/Crossdressing One Stop thread (11/27/2006 1:40:08 PM)

Deuteronomy 22:5

quote:

A woman must not wear men's clothing, nor a man wear women's clothing, for the LORD your God detests anyone who does this.



RaeLouiseWall -> RE: Transgenderism/Crossdressing One Stop thread (11/27/2006 11:34:54 PM)

This verse has been used for a while to show someone who crossdresses that this is bad, sinful and so on. However, noone has ever been able to provide any additional Old or New Testemant scripture to confirm or validate this.

Also there are hundreds, if not a thousand or more laws and rules in the Old Testamtent that we as God fearing Christians wilfully ignore every day.

Jesus told us:
For God so loved the world that He gave His only son, that WHOEVER believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.

There is no conditions or exclusions here at all. Whoever believes shall not perish.

He also tells us this in Matt 6:25:
25"Therefore I tell you, do not worry about your life, what you will eat or drink; or about your body, what you will wear. Is not life more important than food, and the body more important than clothes?


It seems to me that people are way too concerned over the fact that part of the population prefers to dress and act in the gender opposite way (at times) than the assigned birth gender.



DaveW -> RE: Transgenderism/Crossdressing One Stop thread (11/28/2006 8:49:59 AM)

A question to the Mods who started this thread.

Is it also meant to include hermaphrodism; i.e. those born with indeterminate gender; and chimearas; those who have DNA that may be both XX and XY?



45degreeN -> RE: Transgenderism/Crossdressing One Stop thread (11/28/2006 9:05:13 AM)

How should we react to a crossdresser coming to our worship service though? Exclude them? insist they get right with the Lord? Or just treat them like anyone else in the congregation?

All sinners in need of grace.



Fritzpw_Admin -> RE: Transgenderism/Crossdressing One Stop thread (11/28/2006 10:27:32 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: DaveW

A question to the Mods who started this thread.

Is it also meant to include hermaphrodism; i.e. those born with indeterminate gender; and chimearas; those who have DNA that may be both XX and XY?

Sure, you can discuss that here.



RaeLouiseWall -> RE: Transgenderism/Crossdressing One Stop thread (11/28/2006 11:47:16 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: dim12trav

How should we react to a crossdresser coming to our worship service though? Exclude them? insist they get right with the Lord? Or just treat them like anyone else in the congregation?

All sinners in need of grace.


Who's to say a crossdresser coming to church is not right with God? If a female attended church in male jeans, male shirt and work boots, most likely nobody would call her a crossdresser.

According to statistics I have heard as many as 1 in 10 males are crossdressers, or have crossdressing tendencies and I would suspect the numbers are similar for the female population.

Church is for giving people a common way to express one's love for and faith in God in worship and in praise. It is also a wonderful place to bring people who are searching for an answer or have a spiritual void in life that needs to be filled. We are all different, some of us are tall, others, are short. Some are fat others thin, some may prefer skirts, while others only wear slacks.
By excluding people from church or a house of worship based solely on our worldly perceptions of what is right and wrong, we are deepening the chasm that exists in the world between believers and those seeking. I have seen so many bitter crossdressers, gays and other "fringe" groups out there. These people groups have been shunned by the "church" because of how they look and/or how they act. This is not how Christ commanded we act in the New Testament.



uschaplain -> RE: Transgenderism/Crossdressing One Stop thread (11/28/2006 2:34:17 PM)

Deuteronomy 22:5 is the verse most often cited with regards to crossdressing. In the 1800's and early 1900's, Christians used this verse as a prohibition for women wearing pants.

The simplicity of the English language does not indicate the complexity of the Hebrew language, the verse's immediate context, or the cultural milieu of the time.

According the New American Standard Bible, "A woman shall not wear man's clothing, nor shall a man put on a woman's clothing; for whoever does these things is an abomination to the LORD your God."

If we look closer, a possible translation would be: A woman [ishah, in Hebrew, meaning a female] shall not wear man's [not ish, male, but the Hebrew word, geber, meaning strong man, able-bodied man, warrior] clothing [kaliy, meaning armor, combat gear; only here is it translated as clothing], nor shall a man [again geber, meaning strong man, able-bodied man, warrior] put on woman's [ishah, meaning female] clothing [simlah, meaning sheet, blanket, outer wrap, cloak, or garment]; . . . .

The meaning of this verse appears to be as follows. A civilian woman is not to put on the combat gear of a warrior to fight against the enemy, nor is a warrior to be disguised as a woman, either to run away from combat or to use subterfuge against the enemy.

As a former Army chaplain I understand this principle. It is the reason military forces wear uniforms, that is, to distinquish combatants from non-combatants.

The purpose of the verse is to reduce colateral damage and the loss of life of innocent civilians. The purpose of the verse is to protect civilian women on the battle field.

If the enemy thought civilian women were fighting as combatants, other non-combatant civilian women would be endangered. If the enemy thought soldiers were dressing as women as subterfuge against them, again innocent civilian women would be endangered. The enemy would most likely shoot first and ask questions later.

This proposed meaning takes into consideration the immediate context of the surrounding verses, in that, they serve to protect the young and the innocent from harm. If the passage refers to sexual impropriety, the verse would more logically be placed with other sexual sins.

I do not believe the intent of the verse was to be a direct prohibition of women wearing male items of clothing, nor of men wearing female items of clothing. Man looks on the outward appearance, but God looks upon the heart.



rcjames -> RE: Transgenderism/Crossdressing One Stop thread (11/28/2006 3:11:51 PM)

Well shucks, if some cross-dressing, transgender type folks want to fellowship at my Church; they are welcome, as long as they repent of thier rebellion, sin, and craziness.

Else they can go on down the street to the Unitarian or possibly the UCC or some other gathering, but they will not be welcome here without repentance and salvation.

Same thing goes for homosexuals, adulterers, fornicators, and sinners of all ilks.


Thanks
RC



Bro_Shane -> RE: Transgenderism/Crossdressing One Stop thread (11/28/2006 3:17:59 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: rcjames

Well shucks, if some cross-dressing, transgender type folks want to fellowship at my Church; they are welcome, as long as they repent of thier rebellion, sin, and craziness.

Else they can go on down the street to the Unitarian or possibly the UCC or some other gathering, but they will not be welcome here without repentance and salvation.

Same thing goes for homosexuals, adulterers, fornicators, and sinners of all ilks.


Thanks
RC



I believe that deserves an "Amen."

Now, how long will it take for RC to be called a Pharisee? I'm going to open a bag of chips and watch...[sm=wave.gif]



greenT -> RE: Transgenderism/Crossdressing One Stop thread (11/28/2006 3:39:37 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: rcjames

Well shucks, if some cross-dressing, transgender type folks want to fellowship at my Church; they are welcome, as long as they repent of thier rebellion, sin, and craziness.

Else they can go on down the street to the Unitarian or possibly the UCC or some other gathering, but they will not be welcome here without repentance and salvation.

Same thing goes for homosexuals, adulterers, fornicators, and sinners of all ilks.


Thanks
RC


Ummmmm.......good for you rcjames........way to show 'em? [sm=aside.gif]



RaeLouiseWall -> RE: Transgenderism/Crossdressing One Stop thread (11/28/2006 3:42:33 PM)

I for one would not call him a pharasee, but I will say his church must be amazing. Not s single sinner to be found there. It really makes me wonder why Jesus hung out with tax collectors and sinners and taught us to love them all.

I still want to see the absolute proof from those who claim that a crossdresser is living in sin because of the crossdressing itself and not the fact that mankind is living in sin by default. the last time i checked there was only one reported case of a man living a sinless life and they nailed Him to a Cross until He died and rose again.

All throughout Biblical history there is story after story of God fearing people who have sinned, repented, sinned again (gasp) and still performed wondeful things to further the kingdom.



uschaplain -> RE: Transgenderism/Crossdressing One Stop thread (11/28/2006 5:07:32 PM)

If crossdressing is a sin, then a lot of women today are sinning. With such reasoning, let's only let women wearing pants to church enter if they promise to confess their sin, repent, and get right with God. The same should also apply to men wearing kilts.

Following this reasoning, no more should we allow anyone to dress up as aliens in Star Trek or Sci-Fi conventions, because that would be crossalien dressing. No more can kids dress as butterflies, bees, rabbits, or animals in school plays because that would be crossspecies dressing.

Confusing crossdressers with homosexuals, adulters, and sexual sinners goes beyond what Scripture says.

Such reasoning says female impersonators, kids dressing in clothing of the opposite sex for a masquerade party, and girls wearing blue jeans are sinning. I do not believe that is teaching of Scripture.



zoebob -> RE: Transgenderism/Crossdressing One Stop thread (11/28/2006 5:25:21 PM)

The point of cross dressing that people are concerned about here is males who try to pass themselves off as females by their style of dress and vise-versa. A woman wearing jeans designed for a woman or even from the men's department but that still looks like a woman is not cross dressing.



miasma -> RE: Transgenderism/Crossdressing One Stop thread (11/28/2006 5:26:46 PM)

Only if her intent is to "be" a man. Or if she only feels "right" dressed/behaving like a man (or vice versa).



rcjames -> RE: Transgenderism/Crossdressing One Stop thread (11/28/2006 5:36:44 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: RaeLouiseWall

All throughout Biblical history there is story after story of God fearing people who have sinned, repented, sinned again (gasp) and still performed wondeful things to further the kingdom.


You kind of answer your own objection; Sin; repent. No repent; then leave.

Open rebellious sin has no place in the Church; never has, never will.

Paul spoke to this open rebellious sin very plainly;

(1Co 5:1) It is reported commonly that there is fornication among you, and such fornication as is not so much as named among the Gentiles, that one should have his father's wife.

(1Co 5:2) And ye are puffed up, and have not rather mourned, that he that hath done this deed might be taken away from among you.

(1Co 5:3) For I verily, as absent in body, but present in spirit, have judged already, as though I were present, concerning him that hath so done this deed,

(1Co 5:4) In the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, when ye are gathered together, and my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ,

(1Co 5:5) To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.

Jesus Christ is the same, yesterday, today, and forever; irregardless of the present day acceptance of sin and political correctness.

Thanks
RC



RaeLouiseWall -> RE: Transgenderism/Crossdressing One Stop thread (11/28/2006 6:43:19 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: rcjames
You kind of answer your own objection; Sin; repent. No repent; then leave.

Open rebellious sin has no place in the Church; never has, never will.

Paul spoke to this open rebellious sin very plainly;

(1Co 5:1) It is reported commonly that there is fornication among you, and such fornication as is not so much as named among the Gentiles, that one should have his father's wife.

(1Co 5:2) And ye are puffed up, and have not rather mourned, that he that hath done this deed might be taken away from among you.

(1Co 5:3) For I verily, as absent in body, but present in spirit, have judged already, as though I were present, concerning him that hath so done this deed,

(1Co 5:4) In the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, when ye are gathered together, and my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ,

(1Co 5:5) To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.

Jesus Christ is the same, yesterday, today, and forever; irregardless of the present day acceptance of sin and political correctness.

Thanks
RC


This is true if a crossdresser was fornicating
"fornicate - have sex without being married" (http://www.thefreedictionary.com/fornicating)

Since most crossdressers are probably not commiting fornication with the clothing, this particular passage does not seem to apply to the question at hand.

My initial challenge was to show me proof positive that a person who crossdresses is living in sin becuase of the crossdressing (i.e. the actual act of crossdressing is sinful as defined by Jesus and the New Testament).

All I ever hear from people is a cut and dry "it's sinful" yet nobody can provide me one iota of proof beyond the common verse mentioned above from Deut, which if we are to take it literally, we need to take the entire Old Testament laws literally and not pick and choose as Christians tend to do when the verse suits thier purpose.

Who are we to say that a person who has been crossdressing (or has dealt with transgender feelings) was not born this way? We are not God, we do not know the details of his or her life. We see someone with an outward phyisical defect (poor vision for example) and we do not question things or say that God made a mistake (the defect means the person is not physically perfect). The person with the defect also does not typically claim that God made a mistake and often never attempts to "pray through this". We often treat people with disibalities very special as we should. We provide them with special classes, camps where they can hear of God's love for them and "God don't make trash" talk. All this is great and true. Yet a person who by all "traditional measurements" has had an unexplainable need to dress and express outwardly in the opposite birth gender is called a sinner, a homosexual and a host of other things.



RaeLouiseWall -> RE: Transgenderism/Crossdressing One Stop thread (11/28/2006 6:47:08 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: zoebob

The point of cross dressing that people are concerned about here is males who try to pass themselves off as females by their style of dress and vise-versa. A woman wearing jeans designed for a woman or even from the men's department but that still looks like a woman is not cross dressing.


therefore if a man decided to start wearing floral skirts and high heels, but still looked very much the man, (facial features, etc...) that is acceptable becuase he does not have an emotional and possibly biological predisposition to do this?



doobedoo -> RE: Transgenderism/Crossdressing One Stop thread (11/29/2006 2:16:51 AM)

I do think the question raised early in this thread is an interesting one. What do pastors tell the hermaphrodites? I know someone who had a male child born with an underdeveloped urethra, mild hypospadias - the urethra didn't fuse all the way to the end. No gender identity issues there, just some surgery to close up the urethra, but this condition can be a lot more severe. I've learned that there are a lot of variations on this, in both males and females. There can be genetic issues at play, such as hermaphroditism and chromosomal abnormalities, such that people don't even quite know what gender to consider themselves. Are they to live entirely chaste lives, is that the end of it? And can they live openly in churches, such that they don't have to hide and yet they can feel accepted?

And, there are environmental effects in the womb from hormonal variations - too much testorone (or not enough) at the wrong time from mom, and boom, there goes the reproductive system development, and also the child's brain development can be affected. What a struggle for such people, and where do they go for support in living with this? They may or may not be getting even adequate medical treatment. What a struggle!



RaeLouiseWall -> RE: Transgenderism/Crossdressing One Stop thread (11/29/2006 8:27:21 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: doobedoo

I do think the question raised early in this thread is an interesting one. What do pastors tell the hermaphrodites? I know someone who had a male child born with an underdeveloped urethra, mild hypospadias - the urethra didn't fuse all the way to the end. No gender identity issues there, just some surgery to close up the urethra, but this condition can be a lot more severe. I've learned that there are a lot of variations on this, in both males and females. There can be genetic issues at play, such as hermaphroditism and chromosomal abnormalities, such that people don't even quite know what gender to consider themselves. Are they to live entirely chaste lives, is that the end of it? And can they live openly in churches, such that they don't have to hide and yet they can feel accepted?

And, there are environmental effects in the womb from hormonal variations - too much testorone (or not enough) at the wrong time from mom, and boom, there goes the reproductive system development, and also the child's brain development can be affected. What a struggle for such people, and where do they go for support in living with this? They may or may not be getting even adequate medical treatment. What a struggle!


I personally know a person who was born intersexed. This person was born and the doctors were unable at the time to determine the birth gender. The parents raised this child gender neutrally (no pink or blue, but both I suppose) until he/she could make a personal decision as to gender. Once he/she made this choice then they worked towards that end.

The child found much more female emotions and overall appearance than male and chose that path.

The amazing thing is the entire family belongs to the Mormon church, which is often considered to be not only a non Christian church by most traditional churches, but the elders of the church apparently gave "approval" and allowed this child to go through the appropriate ceremonies the church has for becoming an adult.

This lady is now living a normal life and is by all accounts female.

You comments on hormone washing and genetics are interesting as well. There is a bit of research out there in the scientific circles discussing this very issue.

As a side note, all humans start out female in the womb and after a certain period of time, the reproductive organs are formed. It is only when the child is born and the doctor looks at the groin to decide "it's a boy' or
"it's a girl".



zoebob -> RE: Transgenderism/Crossdressing One Stop thread (11/29/2006 8:42:43 AM)

MODERATORS NOTE::

For the purpose of this thread cross dressing shall be defined as a man or woman who dresses in such a way as to attempt to pass themselves off as the opposite sex or to attempt to look like the opposite sex.

This is NOT a discussion about whether it is appropriate for women to wear pants from either the mens or womens department.

Any further posts that attempt to bring this into the conversation will be deleted.

Do not send me PM's about this.
Do not discuss this in the public forums.
If you have any questions about this or how it applies please email community@salemwebnetwork.com before posting.



rcjames -> RE: Transgenderism/Crossdressing One Stop thread (11/29/2006 8:48:31 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: RaeLouiseWall

My initial challenge was to show me proof positive that a person who crossdresses is living in sin becuase of the crossdressing (i.e. the actual act of crossdressing is sinful as defined by Jesus and the New Testament).



(1Th 5:21) Prove all things; hold fast that which is good.

(1Th 5:22) Abstain from all appearance of evil.

(1Th 5:23) And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

RaeLouiseWall, it is not about pushing the envelope to see what one can "get away with", it is about, it is about serving a Living God with honor and respect for His Word.


Thanks
RC



RaeLouiseWall -> RE: Transgenderism/Crossdressing One Stop thread (11/29/2006 10:52:15 AM)

(1Th 5:21) Prove all things; hold fast that which is good.
How does this relate to the topic? It sounds like it comes down to a personal decision as to what is good and what needs to be proven. One person says that crossdressing or transgenderism is not a sin, and another person says it is.
For years ladies were compelled not to wear makeup by the church. Church members were scolded for attending movies, listening to modern music and so forth. Social constructs alone decied that these things were good and we were to hold fast to them, so people did.

(1Th 5:22) Abstain from all appearance of evil.
This makes no sense to the topic at all. It implies that a person wearing clothing of the opposite birth gender has the apperance of evil"? Is it the clothes or the act? If it is the act then I revert to my original question of give me proof it is. This is not proof, it is hearsay. Abstaining from all apperance of evil is a wonderful idea. It does bring up a lot of questions though. If we are to abstain from all apperance of evil as it says (and I do belive the Bible), then should we drive cars? Afterall a criminal drives a get-away car after a crime. Should we wear a suit? Many evil people have worn suits (look at the infamous mobsters of our society, very well dressed indeed). Perhaps we should stop using the internet since there is so much hate speech out there as well as pornography. the point is this is one person's opinion that the act of crossdressing is evil, or presents evil intent.

(1Th 5:23) And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.
I like this verse. It goes well with how many Christian's who are crossdressers or trangendered belive. Many people who deal with this issue spend a lifetime feeling like outcasts. The one place where we as people are taught is a safe haven (besides home and mom) is the church.

Mom is usually forgiving as she is mom! The church on the other hand has 2 distinct viewpoints. One church view point is it is evil, sinful and nobody who does this is allowed before the throne. The other church viewpoint seems to be let everything go regardless of what it is. Neither one is a good fit for most people who crossdress.

So keep digging RC [;)]





RaeLouiseWall, it is not about pushing the envelope to see what one can "get away with", it is about, it is about serving a Living God with honor and respect for His Word.

quote:


(1Th 5:21) Prove all things; hold fast that which is good.

(1Th 5:22) Abstain from all appearance of evil.

(1Th 5:23) And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

RaeLouiseWall, it is not about pushing the envelope to see what one can "get away with", it is about, it is about serving a Living God with honor and respect for His Word.



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