quote:

Physical proof? Well, I guess you already know and rejected the autopsies that were
done on transsexuals in the Netherlands I believe because the samples were too small and they had been on female hormones and of course another selective portion that was skipped by those who reject the sample as being too small was the one autopsy that was performed where the transsexual individual was not only not homosexual but was also not on female hormones for at least a 10 year period.

quote:

I am over 60 years old. If I gave you just a few of the names of those who had prayed for me over this you would think that I was name dropping. I had prayed for more years then I care to think about. I have been on female hormones for the last 5 or 6 years now and I know that it was the right decision.

quote:

What makes you think that I am not a born again Christian?

quote:

ORIGINAL: Kat_D

quote:

ORIGINAL: N-E-W-S

I believe that crossdressing in public is sinful.

It is a sin if you do it in private also. I read your post where you said you know this is wrong, but you struggle with it. N-e-w-s, do you have someone you can counsel with about this; someone you can trust...a pastor or Christian counselor? I pray that God gives you the wisdom, strength, and grace to overcome.


Some want to make this simply an issue of appearances or clothing, and say others are judging them on what they wear as in the first verses of James 2, but this issue has nothing to do with that. This is a heart issue and crossdressers get some sort of pay-off, satisfaction, or pleasure from dressing like the opposite sex. There are feelings that this practice evokes. That is what I believe is sinful. Again, it's not what one wears...it's why one wears it that is the issue.

On another note, if it is sinful to indulge in things other than God to fill our needs or longings, (i.e., food, alcohol, drugs, or fornication), it is also a sin to turn crossdressing to fill a void that only God can fill.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Kat_D

quote:

Physical proof? Well, I guess you already know and rejected the autopsies that were
done on transsexuals in the Netherlands I believe because the samples were too small and they had been on female hormones and of course another selective portion that was skipped by those who reject the sample as being too small was the one autopsy that was performed where the transsexual individual was not only not homosexual but was also not on female hormones for at least a 10 year period.

There are also studies that say alcoholism is genetic. I don't buy it, but let's just say it's true for this point of discussion:

Harry is an alcoholic. He get's saved. Is he free therefore (because it's in his genes), to remain a drunk throughout his Christian walk? Is Christ limited to heal only sinful conditions that don't involve a genetic origin? Can He not give this new Christian alcoholic the strength and power to overcome and the ability to deny alcohol? Of course He can. We all know former alcoholics, who, after being saved, turn from their sin (through the power of their Savior) and go on to live fruitful lives and never again touch a drop of alcohol.

Now, apply the same scenario to the people being discussed in this thread.

quote:

ORIGINAL: car2462

Hello All,

I have pretty much stayed out of this portion of this latest thread because it appeared to address primarily cross dressing.

I have noted that since the beginning of this thread that on several occasions that comments have been made concerning the lack of proof, scientific or otherwise. I wish to state that I am speaking here from the point of view of someone who is transsexual and not transgendered with the major difference being is that those that are transsexual seek to have gender reassignment surgery, I have simplified this for the sake of this particular conversation in order to maintain a reply to the below quote.

quote:

3. There is no proof at all (zero, zilch, nada, none) that "transgenderism" is anything more than a psychiatric disorder. As much as people may want it to be otherwise, there is nothing that shows a biological or physiological cause

My first question concerning the above quote is exactly what kind of proof are you seeking?

I am some what confused because most fundamentalist Christians seem to believe that psychiatry and psychology are man made religions, one example of a well known person taking this position is John Macarthur (I think I spelled the name correctly).
I am further confused because the psychiatrists and psychologists that have taken the position that this is a mental disorder are the very same ones who in the standards of care have dropped the fact that homosexuality is a mental disorder (seems that they can make more money off of us...I am being sarcastic here.)
My point here is you cannot have it both ways, that is being selective as to what you would believe from a group of people you may not trust to begin with.

My next question is: Exactly what kind of proof are you seeking?

Physical proof? Well, I guess you already know and rejected the autopsies that were
done on transsexuals in the Netherlands I believe because the samples were too small and they had been on female hormones and of course another selective portion that was skipped by those who reject the sample as being too small was the one autopsy that was performed where the transsexual individual was not only not homosexual but was also not on female hormones for at least a 10 year period.

quote:

because T6 had not taken CPA for the past 10 years, and T3 took no CPA during the two years before death and still had a female-sized BSTc.

http://www.symposion.com/ijt/ijtc0106.htm

Well, I guess this leads me to my next question. Exactly what kind of proof are you seeking?

How about something from Scientific American.

quote:

Over the past few years, though, geneticists have uncovered evidence for active female determination. DAX1, on the X chromosome, seems to start up the female pathway while inhibiting testis formation--unless the gene has already been blocked by SRY. With too much DAX1, a person with the XY complement is born a female.

http://tinyurl.com/ynkllk

While none of this is earth shattering and gives absolute, undying proof I can show many more that are similar to the above. Don't forget, most people could care less about those like me and would prefer we just did not exist so there is not a whole lot of research going on about transsexualism, but there is enough to show that there is more then meets the eye and it is not as simplified as many would hope it is.

I suspect that if irrefutable came out in all the media that it would take generations before the church would accept us. In any case I don't believe that the church is going to be here much longer anyway. I believe that the rapture is closer then we think.

Before I close there is one more issue I would like to address that seems to pop up now and then and that is the issue of hiding in sin:

quote:

I am a counselor at a church and I'd have to say that those who come to me for counsel (who have been hiding out in church because of their sin), are mostly those Now you tell me cross-dressers are also among them...what does that say to you?

and

quote:

Then you just have to ask why they hide if there is nothing ungodly or unbiblical about it.

Good Point on the surface of it, unfortunately, one size does not fit all.

When I was very young somewhere around 3 or 4 I asked my mother why she kept calling me a boy when I was a girl, I do not recall anything happening then as far as a reply just that I knew I was being referred to as someone I wasn't. Up until the age of around 5 I had played the roll of the girl in most games even though some were rough and tumble type, but still in the roll of a girl. It was around that time that the beatings began, you have to understand that in those days in the late 40's and 50's that this was an acceptable form of punishment, if it drew blood, well then I must have done something to deserve it. These types of beatings were designed to accomplish one thing and that was to never allow anyone else to know that I was a girl.

How can I be so sure? I remember being cuddled by my mother and she would in a loving way ask me what was wrong, you know what I mean, in that special, loving way a mother speaks to her child and if I tried to bring up the fact that I was being called a boy and being made to play with boys toys and their games well things got ugly real fast, tell you what folks, roll up your jeans to above your knees, sprinkle some uncooked rice on the floor and kneel in it for oh, lets say 30 seconds. Depending on how mad she was my sentence for being a girl was 3 to 7 minutes. I need to be honest here that the beatings and of course the verbal abuse that were not always about being a girl, I mean there were normal issues as well. I mean that for some reason or another I had issues in school as well, you know the kind that I'm talking about, does not get along with others (leave it up to a child to know that you are different), does poorly in school work etc. except for spelling and reading, I was a master at those subjects, figure out why? Reading was my escape.

Hiding you say! Your darn right I was hiding, I spent 14 years of my life learning to lock into my spirit the fact that I was a girl and not a boy, 12 years of beatings and verbal abuse being taught never to utter a word that I am female.

My point here is don't be so sure that everybody who does not conform to your standards of conduct must be hiding in their sins, while the vast majority are, you cannot put everyone into one mold.

One other thing as long as we are on the subject, I am not involved in pornography, adultery, fornication and drug abuse, never have been.

quote:

If what they are doing glorified the Lord, they should all be in the front row in their make up and high heels for all to see and admire, don'tcha think?

First of all, 95% of the time, you would find me in jeans, top, and sandals or some such shoes. If I went to church I would wear a skirt or dress and sensible heels out of respect for the Lord and His house of Worship.

quote:

I'm getting tired of explaining this. As I said before, we have no problem with them attending our church...they just wouldn't be allowed to attend in female attire and if they did, they'd be asked to leave. Again, We consider men dressing as women to be sinful behavior. We wouldn't let a stoner light up a joint in church. End of story...over and out.

As for your over and out comment, I read you loud and clear and perhaps it is for the best. Church for me is a non entity and I see your comment (being asked to leave) as irrelevant, I took enough verbal abuse as a child without being verbally attacked by those who do not understand and do not want to understand.

Thank You,
Carolyn

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bro_Shane
3. There is no proof at all (zero, zilch, nada, none) that "transgenderism" is anything more than a psychiatric disorder. As much as people may want it to be otherwise, there is nothing that shows a biological or physiological cause

quote:

KAT_D
I will not argue the point with you any further.

quote:

ORIGINAL: peg623

My point is that blacks face discrimination and hate crimes as do transgendered persons. Any of you and this includes Bro Shane can argue with me all you want but the reality is that being transgendered is NOT a lifestyle choice and we were born and not made. Being who we are is not sinful. God alone judges what is sinful. No where in the scriptures other than Deut. 22:5 is there reference to clothing. Jesus made no statements. Why would anyone choose to be condemned and rediculed? I would love the opportunity of talking face to face with any of you and hope many would not hide behind their computer keyboards.

quote:

ORIGINAL: car2462


My first question concerning the above quote is exactly what kind of proof are you seeking?

quote:

While none of this is earth shattering and gives absolute, undying proof I can show many more that are similar to the above.

quote:

If you are a born again Christian and have received the Holy Spirit...

quote:

Were you born with any female sexual organs?

quote:

The proof I require is proof, not suggestion.

quote:

3. There is no proof at all (zero, zilch, nada, none) that "transgenderism" is anything more than a psychiatric disorder. As much as people may want it to be otherwise, there is nothing that shows a biological or physiological cause

quote:

I doubt you will accept that as proof, Bro_Shane since it goes against scripture

quote:

ORIGINAL: rcjames

Cross dressers (sin) has no place in the Gathering of the Saints.

quote:

Repentant cross dressers are welcome.

quote:

Folks with completed sex change operations have no place in the Gathering of the Saints.

quote:

If they repent and get changed back, then they are welcome.

quote:

ORIGINAL: car2462

quote:

If you are a born again Christian and have received the Holy Spirit...

I am not sure what you are saying here but if you are saying that I am not walking in the Spirit I certainly will not argue with you but being shunned does not make it any easier.

quote:

I'll try one more time. Go back and read message 400 then go to the link I provided at Scientific American. The point that I am trying to make here is that your original statement:

quote:

is false and you know it is.

quote:

While the burden of proof falls on me to prove that this could be a biological condition I believe that I have submitted enough evidence to show that what you are saying is incorrect (that is your zero, zilch, nada comment).

quote:

There may not be enough evidence to back my position, but there is enough evidence to prove reasonable doubt about your statement.

quote:

P.S. The Scientific American article is not a suggestion which leads me to once again ask: What kind of proof are you seeking? I am not asking this to be sarcastic but because I am really interested in knowing.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Kat_D

quote:

I doubt you will accept that as proof, Bro_Shane since it goes against scripture

Nothing overrides or trumps the Word of God.

quote:

earth shattering and gives absolute, undying proof

quote:

ORIGINAL: maidalyssa

no proof? Something I have withheld from the group about myself. When I came out to my mother, she confessed that my father (who passed when I was two years old) had expressed interest in liking the feel of her lingerie against his skin (wearing it).

quote:

while that definitly doesnt mean my old man was a crossdresser, it suggests that a seed was passed from the father to the son that manifested itself later on in my life, without ever knowing my biological father or knowing he had liked the feel of lingerie against his skin.
(please dont anyone attack my deceased father, please, its rude.)

quote:

I doubt you will accept that as proof, Bro_Shane since it goes against scripture and you will continue saying its not genetic but please dont say its a psychiatric disorder, because that means it can be cured by medical doctors and that means Psychological drugs and psychiatric therapy can cure me and I KNOW you didnt mean that. (I hope you dont mean that)

quote:

all I can say here is, the Church really loves to fix people, broken people or otherwise. Sometimes the Church gets carried away in their "fixing people". If the Church cant "FIX" someone, then its most definitly a mental problem, I am not broken and I dont need fixing... at least not mentally.

quote:

ORIGINAL: RaeLouiseWall

Bro_shane,

Since you are without a doubt firm in your convictions that a crossdresser can, if he so desires, stop this behavior with the help of Christ, I challenge you to show proof of this.

quote:

This argument that a transgendered person does not have enough faith, or does not trust God to “heal” him is simply misinformed.

quote:

Take a look at the following information from the American Psychological Association and The Gender Identity Research and Education Society have to say regarding this issue:

quote:

ORIGINAL: rcjames
.
Folks with completed sex change operations have no place in the Gathering of the Saints.

If they repent and get changed back, then they are welcome.

Sin is sin is sin and no sin has a place in the Body of Christ, or the Gathering of the Saints.

Thanks
RC